ITLE: Thom Will Not Save Moiraine
by Harry: 2002-11-26 | Not yet rated
After joining the Faction of Thom Will Save Moiraine, I have been reading the series again to be fresh for the 10th book in January 2003 and I have now changed my opinion.
There are commonly 2 points that are raised to support the theory that Moiraine will be saved. They are: 1) the fact that Mat knows how to win at Snakes and Foxes and this could be a way of entry in to Finnland. 2) The vision of Thom plucking Moiraine's blue stone from the fire.
I feel that these 2 points do not paint a picture of Moiraine being saved but could mean something different.
My theories are:
Point 1: The fact that Mat knows how to win at snakes and foxes – I do not think this proves that he will save Moiraine. It does indicate that it is likely that he will use that knowledge in a future plot line but not necessarily to save Moiraine.
Point 2: The vision that Thom will pluck Moiraine's blue stone from the fire. I do not believe this relates to "saving" Moiraine. I believe this relates to Thom's statement earlier in the series where he says relating to Moiraine, "A fine woman, if she were not Aes Sedai. Meddle with that sort, and you get more than your fingers burned."
I would put the emphasis on “Burnt Fingers”! I interpret Thom plucking the stone from the fire to mean that Thom will marry or be romantically involved with Moiraine.
As Thom commences his relationship with Moiraine, figuratively speaking, he is picking up the stone (Moiraine) from the fire and being burnt on the fingers for meddling (being romantically involved with / marrying) with her.
Finally, other than my explanation of the Point 1 & 2, I cannot believe that if Lanfear were free from Finnland (As Cyndane), that Moiraine would not be free as well. Moiraine has enough knowledge about the Finns to negotiate her way out.
This is my 1st theory post, but don't let that stop you getting stuck in to me.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2002-11-26
Well, you picked an excellent one to start with...especially since I absolutely agree with you. The funniest thing is, to substantiate Thom saving Moiraine, everyone has to add Mat to the mix...while we have no reason whatsoever to believe Mat has anything to do with Moiraine's future, nor that he will ever return to Finnland. But, adding Mat, believers of going into Finnland, give Thom someone who can help him enter. Although, to enter again, they have to add more people to the mix because Mat has no means to enter Finnland. By some theories, four or five people are all going to be instrumental in this escape plan, all because of the quote you pointed out of Thom pulling the blue stone out of a fire...which I like how you nicely added, that pulling a hot stone from fire would burn your fingers. :) I am sorry that my response is nothing but an affirmation, but it is nice to know that not everyone buys into the romantic part of the Thom saves Moiraine idea, when we truly have no indication that anything remotely like this is possible or part of the plot. (And I so hope we are correct...because if not, I will feel the fool for having written this :) ).
2
Callandor: 2002-12-12
There are many more points to which Moirane will be saved. For Thom pulling the gem out of the fire, what does fire do to the finn? it BLINDS THEM! So they can get her out. Another is that Rand will fail without a women dead and gone. Now this could be two people. One obviously is Moirane, who everybody believes to be dead and gone but can be brought back. The other that many people say, and I think its pretty unlikely but you never can tell, is Lanfear. She being brought back as Cyndane(sp) has in fact been dead (kinda) and brought back. But in Winters Heart we get her POV and she literaly wants to see Rand DEAD! Not someone that will help you suceed. And lastly we have a vision by Min. This is when Min says that Moirane was the only one of her visions to fail. Min is obviously infalible do to simple and VAST amount of visions shes had and they are always right. So how can one about Moirane be wrong? Simple, Min thinks she is dead and cant complete the vision. All she needs to be is brought back (from Finnland maybe?) and then the women who is dead and gone is there and Min is back to infalible.
Another thing about the burning fingers. Who says that Thom can't marry Moirane after he rescues her? Nothing is more romantic in MANY stories then a rescue.
3
Tamyrlin: 2002-12-12
What I am saying is the assumption that Thom has to go to finnland to save Moiraine is flawed. If Moiraine is destined to come out of finnland, then why can't we assume that Thom will save Moiraine at some later date after she is out of finnland. We have no evidence to suggest that she would somehow be captive there. We don't know what price or deal she made, nor do we have any information Thom knows of finnland, nor how to enter, nor that he would know that music and fire, and the other crap has any effect on them. So then everyone says, well, then Mat must be involved, and Olver too. Yadda Yadda Yadda, it is the romantic in everyone that wants this to happen, but little if no substantiation to truly suggest it will.
4
OROBOROS: 2002-12-15
I'm not really sure what i think about this issue, though i am tending more towards Thom not saving Moiraine. As to Min's viewing, I am not sure exactly when it first occurs, but couldn't it have been pointing to Moiraine's death fighting Lanfear? There is a lot of foreshadowing, and the two alternate paths are Rand failing.
5
Harry: 2002-12-16
In reply to Callandor,
You bring up another two points to "support" the Thom saving Moiraine from the Finns theory.
1) That Rand will fail without women dead and gone.
This does not mean that Thom will save Moiraine from the Finns. To make it clear I am not saying that Moiraine is dead. I just don't believe that Thom will rescue her from the Finns.
2) Because of Min's Viewing or her opinion that her viewing failed and it never fails.
I don't see how Min's viewing somehow makes the case that Thom will save Moiraine from the Finns. Once again I believe Moiraine is alive and free of the Finns therefore making Min's viewing possible and correct as usual.
I await anyone's reply to convince me that they have a strong indication from the books (other than emotional wishes) that Thom will save Moiraine from Finnland.
6
Alaric: 2003-01-06
There is one more thing which suggests that Thom will save Moiraine from the Aelfinn. We all know that Jordan loves to take mythology and work it into his stories, and those of you familiar with Greek legends will likely remember the story of the young musician whose lover was captured by the minions of Hades and forced to stay in the underworld (the Aelfinn/Finnland, perhaps?). What did said-musician do? He entered the Underworld with his trusty instrument, and played it so beautifully that the minions of Hades were mesmerized (and what does music do to the Aelfinn? It stuns them), and he was allowed to bring his love back out as long as neither looked back. In Greek mythology, their exit didn't go well, but, if I am write about the correlation between Thom/Moraine/Finnland and this legend, hopefully RJ will change the ending ;). Anyways, that is the soul reason I think Thom will be the one to rescue Moraine. The only way in which I believe Mat will be involved is possibly mentioning to Thom that music can stun them - and that's just a maybe.
7
aan-Allein: 2003-01-28
I seriously doubt Moiraine is still being held by the Finn's. I mean why would they keep her if they could have just as easily kept Mat in his bargain, and since he's Ta'veren wouldn't that make a better prisoner for them? I really believe that Moiraine is now the damane known as Mylen and that Thom will rescue her but at great risk to himself.
8
Callandor: 2003-01-28
The Finn only held Mat for a little time. The Finn feed off of memories (not literaly feed of course). And what better way to get a whole load of memories, then keeping a person and taking all of their memories that they have ever had, all that they have ever felt?
That seems like a really good motive to keep someone in Finnland. Plus the Finn dont NEED to let anyone go, actually they seem to be bent on keeping people there as long as possible.
9
jason wolfbrother: 2003-01-28
Moraine is not Mylen. Mylen is an Aes Sedai from this side of the Aryth Ocean but not Moraine. "Mylen-I did know her as Sheraine Caminelle, but she do answer only to Mylen." Hopefully this will close the debate on Moraine being a damane.:)
10
TheNetweaver: 2003-03-03
Women dead and gone. If your quote is correct, then WOMEN is plural. Perhaps this could mean the list that Rand has made of all the women dead because of his actions. Look at p. 622 of Winter's Heart leading into p. 623. It starts "Moiraine had died because he was not hard enough to do what had to be done. Her name always headed the list engraved on his brain, the women who had died because of him. Moiraine Damodred. Every name of that list brought anguish..." It ends with "One by one he summoned up the names on that long list, patiently forging his soul in the fires of pain." I might have to make a new theory out of this.
11
Wyrohn Charin: 2003-03-04
Ok, don't get me wrong; I'm not positive that Thom will save Moiraine but I, personally, would like to see it happen that way. The little saying is "Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to daze, iron to bind."
Music-Thom
Steel-Mat
Courage-Olver
Fire-Aludra
Yes, Mat providing the steel is a more than a little sketchy as well as Olver and courage but it is a direct correlation almost. Plus, there's no saying that pulling the stone out of the fire doesn't mean exactly what it appears to mean. If you add the Greek Mythology comment on to the end of this than we have a whole lot of speculation; I know. But this is a whole lot of "maybes" that all fit together, quite nicely I might add.
I, for one, would be disappointed if Thom and the others didn't save Moiraine, I mean, they're even headed directly to the area of Andor with the tower in it. This all may be speculation but it is too much speculation to just be brushed aside.
12
Great Captain: 2003-03-04
Put all four together and you have cannons that do exactly the same thing and can be used to lay seige to the Tower of Ghenji.
13
Brainchz: 2003-03-06
Here's a quote to support Mat's involvement in saving Moiraine. It's the full quote from Egwene thinking about the different dreams she's been having. It's in book 5 Chap. 15 - What Can Be Learned in Dreams
"Another dream. Mat throwing dice with blood streaming down his face, the wide brim of his hat pulled low so she could not see his wound, WHILE Thom Merrilin put his hand into a fire to draw out the small blue stone that now dangled on Moiraine's forehead."
Notice the word "while" thus linking the two together. I'm not convinced that Moiraine is with the Finns, but remember that they told Mat that it was wise of him to ask for a way out. This implies that he may not have returned if he hadn't.
Story wise I'd much prefer that Moiraine is now a damane and that Mat's involvment with Toun will lead them to her. Rather then taking the story in another direction, but it seems more likely with all the setup that's going on that we'll be seeing the Finns again.
Seeing as how Thom and Mat are currently together let's hope that this is resolved in the next book.
14
Elder Haman: 2003-03-06
Whoa- I just had an epiphany- this blood streaming down Mat's face- Egwene couldn't see the wound because his hat was pulled low. We've also seen dreams and Min-readings that suggest Mat is going to lose an eye. This is often attached to the 'finns telling him he would give of half the light of the world to save the world- Most have thought this refers to helping Rand somehow, perhaps involving the Seachan.
Now consider- if Min's veiwing that Rand needs a "woman dead and gone" to succeed does refer to Moiraine, (and not Lanfear which also a possibility), then saving Moiraine would save the world because it would help Rand succeed in the Last Battle. Perhaps this unseen wound is when Mat loses his eye- Poor Mat! Those 'finns are always giving him the short end of the stick.
15
araqyl: 2003-04-25
I don't see why Thom needs anyone - he has the music, can get his own iron (steel won't do it - Mat had plenty on both trips through a portal), can carry fire if he needs it - but to defeat them he doesn't need to hit them with everything, just one or two things will do nicely.
Also, Moiraine could be protecting herself from the Finns by maintaining a sphere of fire around herself, using other weaves to bring her fresh air.
16
Cliff-Hagard: 2003-12-08
Just becuz Cydane (who is obviously Lanfear) is free from the Finns does not mean so should Moraine. Remember the Finns hate anything to do with the DO. Lanfear obviously went on a tantrum when they held her, explainin she was one of the "chosen" and they could not do this to her. Realising she had close connection to the DO they killed her and bringing her back from a separate would for the DO must be harder than from the same one, this would explain Cyndane's weaker power.
17
timetorollthedice: 2004-10-20
Brainchz wrote ***"Another dream. Mat throwing dice with blood streaming down his face, the wide brim of his hat pulled low so she could not see his wound, WHILE Thom Merrilin put his hand into a fire to draw out the small blue stone that now dangled on Moiraine's forehead." ***
My 2 cents on this: Assuming the quote is correct, I agree that the 'while' is relevant. I think the following scenario is very likely: Matt & Thom are in Finnland, via the Tower of Ghenjei. Matt is dealing with the Finns. (Maybe they are punishing him for coming a 2nd time, which is why his eye is removed & bleeding.) Dicing with them may be literal or figurative. Maybe he's really betting his life or memories or something else to gain exit or something else. Maybe just being there is a gamble. While he is thus engaged, Thom is rescuing Moiraine, i.e. pulling her Jewel out of a fire. I think the 'fool with that sort and you'll get more than your fingers burned' is foreshadowing of the pulling her jewel out of the fire. I don't think I'm the first to come up with that scenario; it seems the most likely to me.
