oiraine Still Has A Part To Play
by Gedwyn: 2003-01-10 | Not yet rated
I'm a firm believer in the idea that Moiraine will still figure into the series. I will not claim that she is in Finnland, being held in the Tower of Ghenjei; these opinions cannot be proven, yet. They are merely speculations right now.
Here is the PROOF I offer that she is still alive.
Min remarks, after Moiraine's disappearance, that her viewing of Moiraine was the only false one she has ever had. (aCoS, I believe)
This implies two things:
-One, that Min thinks it was a false viewing because Moiraine is dead and cannot do what Min predicted her doing.
-Two, that Min has never been wrong before, not since she started (at age 12).
This latter option makes the first seem unlikely, doesn't it? Min must have had thousands of viewings, all true. Why this one wrong now?
The other part of this evidence deals with what Min does. Verin calls it reading the Pattern. Similarily, Moiraine's viewing of her own "death" sequence through the ter'angreal in Rhuidean is reading the Pattern. Therefore, both these are parts of the Pattern.
Could it be that the Pattern is wrong? I doubt it. Still, let's consider the possibilities that would render the Pattern wrong.
One: Balefire. Unless Lanfear uses balefire on Moiraine after they plunge into the doorway, this hasn't happpened.
Two: Someone outside the Pattern. Either the DO, the Creator, or Fain (as RJ has recently revealed). Fain wasn't involved. The Creator is never involved. The DO - again, unlikely.
It's unlikely for RJ to leave loose ends. These are hints, evidence for people like us to pick up. Either he would have let Moiraine lay dead, without the comment from Min, or ... or there's something left from Moiraine. Of course, this, too, is nothing more than evidenced speculation. We'll all have to RAFO, right?
Please, comments appreciated.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2003-01-11
Moiraine is alive, or at least we have no reason to believe that she is dead. I know some would like her to be dead, but as you wrote down, those are all of the reasons why it is obvious that Jordan isn't done with her.
2
Callandor: 2003-01-11
Other things that point to Moiraine not being dead is actually in a very obvious place: The Glossary in LOC. Under Moiraine it says **She vanished into a ter angreal in Cairhien while battling Lanfear, apparently killing both herself and the Forsaken.** That **apparently** jsut leaves the question too open for her to be dead right after TFOH docks scene.
Another possible thing is when Moiraine snapps at Rand and Mat for entering the Tear doorway at the same time in TSR. Chapter 15, Into the Doorway, page 178-179, she says **One of you would have been bad enough, but two ta veren at once - you might have torn the connection entirely and been trapped there.**
Now, I admit this is kinda sceptical but, if you substitute **channeling fighters** for **ta veren** then you have the exact same thing happening. Plus Moiraine and Lanfear were both using angreal, filled to the brink even with those, so that is a LOT of the OP.
Now there are quite a few visions that apply to Moiraine. One of the major ones is by Min, which you have already pointed out, in ACOS, Chapter 35, Into The Woods, page 546.
In TFOH, Chpater 15, What Can Be Learned In Dreams, page 214, Egwenes vision of Thom pulling Moiraines jewel out of the fire. Many people have taken this to be that Thom will rescue Moiraine, but someone has to be alive first off if you are going to rescue them. So it at least points to that shes alive.
In ACOS, Chapter 35, Into the Woods, page 543, we have Mins comment about Rand failing without **a woman dead and gone**. That can be taken many ways but by far the most common is that the woman is Moiraine.
So a lot of evidence points to Moiraine returning, and given that the books a supposedly coming to an end hopefully she will return soon ;-), and it seems WAY too much evidence for it to disbanded.
3
Daishan: 2003-01-11
Well I have some issues with, well everything it seems, lately, but I'll narrow it down :-)
If there was a channeling battle, Moiraine had BOTH angreal. (!!!!!!!) (!!!!) Read the thread "Asmodean's killer is Slayer" if you don't know what I mean.
Then I think it might be possible for Moiraine to overcome Lanfear with the power. But the problem with that is; she knows balefire. She is very wary of it, but she knows it. She used it against the darkhounds and against Be'lal. The main reason she used it against Be'lal is because "even the Forsaken cannot stand up to balefire". Meaning: it's the one thing she knows for certain will destroy one of the Forsaken. But she didn't use balefire. Why not you say? I say because Lanfear has been reïncarnated as Cyndane. Balefired Forsaken cannot be reïncarnated. Hah. There. I have rendered my own theory about the two angreal useless. I think I will go lie down now...
4
Daishan: 2003-01-12
Just remembered there was a point to the rambling above; if Lanfear wasn't balefired, then Moiraine at least did not fight her and win in a "channeling duel". So how did Lanfear die then? In the crossing? Sounds unlikely to me... Some other cause? If somebody has any ideas, please let me know.
5
Callandor: 2003-01-12
She might have asked for a way out and didnt give specifics (like Mat did) and they killed her. DO remade her into Cyndane.
6
Daishan: 2003-01-13
Mat didn't give specifics. He said "I want a way out of here!" and he got out but he also died. Rand revived him but he was definitely dead for a few seconds. That's why he "died and lives again". So two people we know of entered and left that part of the Finnworld. Both died upon leaving. Well, two people hardly deserved the name "statistical evidence" but it would suggest that if you're not extremely careful, they'll kill you upon exit. So what about Moiraine, then? Did she also try to leave? And if not, why? She got her three wishes, right? And to be practical; if she's still in the Finnworld, how did she survive all this time without food or drink? Are the Finns "outside of time"?. I never REALLY understood the expression "every answer only brings up more question" until now...
7
Callandor: 2003-01-13
Ok.... That last reply was bad wording. I meant that Mat DIDNT give the specifics on his way out. I hate when things like that happen.
8
sanosagara: 2003-01-14
I beleive that Moiraine is back as a damane owned and trained by Tuon named Mylin who Tuon says used to be Aes Sedai and is described as smaller even then herself. we have in Mat's point of view and the POV of others that Tuon is tiny Mylin is also said to have dark hair and the Cairheinen pale skin.
9
pointyman: 2003-01-15
This has been cleared up before. Teslyn gives a quote stating that she knew Mylen when she was Aes Sedai, and gives her former name. I can't actually remember what that name was, but suffice it to say, it wasn't 'Moiraine'. Someone else thought as you did elsewhere on the site, the real name of the Aes Sedai was given.
I think Jordan just put this passage in because he knows how many of us are almost dying to know where Moiraine is.
10
Joseph7626: 2003-01-17
Just wanted to add a quick comment. I am not sure on the exact page or exact quote, but just before they leave the Stone and after Moraine goes through the doorway. She goes to Thom and offers him the name of the red in exchange for his help. She then tells him in no uncertain terms that she will see him again.
I am taking for granted that she learned something about her fate in the doorway and had an inkling about what was going to happen. Taking that supposition into mind, when she told Thom that she would see him again she knew she would survive the fight with Lanfear and would escape. The three oaths wouldn't have let her lie to Thom.
11
Daishan: 2003-01-18
There are two problems with that;
1. A quote from Moiraine in her letter to Rand that she learned of "this day" only after she went through the Rings of Rhuidean. "This day" is of course referring to the day of her fight with Lanfear.
2. The three oaths permit her to say what she believes to be true, not necessarily the absolute truth. Even if she's convinced, that doesn't mean it has to happen. She could just be wishing really hard. Or she could be trying to make Thom feel better (remember; HIS POV in that scene).
That's all for now...
12
Callandor: 2003-01-19
Moiraine could've gotten a reply like Mat to die and live again just instead it was something like to be dead and gone and brought back or something. Never know.
13
Nateosis: 2003-02-10
Ok, im not going to support this with any real evidence, but it'll still make you think ( i hope). I think most of can agree that the similarities between The wheel of time, and the lord of the rings are VERY numerous. . . the fades and the ring wraiths being one of many. . . And as I recall, gandalf was thought dead for a while before he made his miraculous return, correct? so if you follow that line of thinking, Moiraine is BOUND to come back eventually. . . .lol at the very least, its a new way to look at the moiraine issue = )
14
Dedicated: 2003-02-13
I personally lean toward the theory that Moiraine is alive and being held by the Finns. Even when she was about to attack Lanfear, Moiraine still felt hope. In TFoH, Chapter 52:Choices pp 893. "Supressing a small bubble of hope-she could not allow herself that luxury-Moiraine balanced upright a moment on the wagontail, the embraced the source, and leaped at Lanfear. The Forsaken had an instant's warning, enough to turn before Moiraine struck her, clawing the bracelet away. Face to face, they toppled through the doorframe ter'angreal. White light swallowed everything."
Now the properties of Finn's doorway would make sure that Moiraine and Lanfear didn't see each other in Finnland (she, Mat and Rand were all in the doorway in Tear together). So this means that the instant "white light swallowed everything" Moiraine would arrive in Finnland without Lanfear there, and with two angreal.
Now, why would Moiraine feel hope, before her supposed immenent demise? She had to have seen something in the three rings at Rhuidean that gave her that hope. Maybe Moiraine knew she had a chance, however small, to live.
Part two: Min's viewings are NEVER wrong. By their nature "reading the pattern" they cannot be wrong. Min says Moiraine was the only one that failed. I don't think it did.
Part three: Olver, Thom and the Snakes and Foxes. Olver has always been fascinated by the Snakes and Foxes game. There is a description of the game in LoC Courage to Strengthen pp 641 "Only a child's game, and one you could not win so long as you followed the rules. Soon Olver would be old enough to realize that, and like other children, stop playing. Only a child's game, but Mat did not like the Fox getting him, and even less the snakes. It brought back bad memories, even if one had nothing to do with the other.
'Well,' Olver muttered, 'we almost won. Another game,Mat?' Not waiting for an answer, he made the sign that opened the game, a triangle and then a wavy line through it, then chanted the words. 'Courage to strenghthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind' Mat, why do we say that? There no fire, no music and no iron.'"
And what do the Finns ask Mat? "You have no objects of iron, no instruments of music?" The opening line of the game is obviously a Finn land reference and the game is some sort of strange echo of how the Finns play at their game. In CoT, Jordan mentions that Thom had been playing Snakes and Foxes with Olver alot. This indicates that Thom may have some knowledge of how to rescue Moiraine. Maybe Thom uses his knives and flute and harp to somehow "charm" the Finns and maybe Moiraine helps out with a little "fire to blind". Egwene's dream of Thom pulling the stone (Moiraine's forehead stone) out of the fire could only mean that Thom will be involved in rescuing her from the Finns. He would then marry her. Thom remarked in TSR about Moiraine being a fine looking woman with all the regal airs a man could want. Thom srongly dislikes Aes Sedai and the Power in general, but he finds Moiraine beautiful. He would marry her despite her being Aes Sedai.
All this makes a strong case for Moiraine still being alive. I agree that she is and must be rescued from the Finns.
15
juitzhead: 2003-03-03
I was just reading some of the replies to this theory (specifically Callandor's) and a common belief is that two visions by Min and Egwene are related to Moiraine.
If i may quote:
1. In TFOH, Chpater 15, What Can Be Learned In Dreams, page 214, Egwenes vision of Thom pulling Moiraines jewel out of the fire. Many people have taken this to be that Thom will rescue Moiraine, but someone has to be alive first off if you are going to rescue them. So it at least points to that shes alive.
2. In ACOS, Chapter 35, Into the Woods, page 543, we have Mins comment about Rand failing without **a woman dead and gone**. That can be taken many ways but by far the most common is that the woman is Moiraine.
Im not sure if its as clear cut but one suggests that Thom will rescue Moraine (which i strongly beleive) and the other that Rand will fail with a ‘woman dead and gone'. These two viewings are completely opposed to each other. How can Thom save Moraine who is alive and at the same time be a woman 'DEAD and gone'?
I dont think Min's vision is about Moraine. (Maybe Lanfear?? Who is already believed to be dead.)
But like i said, maybe its not as clear cut. Any thoughts?
16
RFox: 2003-03-07
You are forgetting about Point of View.
Min's thoughts on Rand failing without "a woman dead and gone" doesn't mean that Rand needs a dead woman. It's Min's perspective saying that Rand needs a woman who Min *thinks* is dead and gone.
That coupled with Min's comment about her vision of Moiraine being "the only one that failed" would suggest it is Moiraine, and that Moiraine isn't really dead, although they just all believe her to be.
17
Old Grim: 2003-03-16
If Moiraine knew that Lanfear was going to either kill or capture Rand without her help, then why not just use balefire to destroy her? In her trip to Rhuidean she must have seen that she needed to enter the doorway with Lanfear. She could have stayed where she was to guide Rand, but maybe her going into the doorway would help Rand more than her staying out. Most likely, she needed something from the Finns, and to help Rand, she'd still have to be alive.
Well, that's my 2 cents.
18
Hydraan Sedai: 2003-03-16
I always assumed that the Ter'angreal ~ Angreal combination was the reason for the gateway melting; Moiraine was adamant about the placement of the angreal. Also, remember when Egwene was given the Tel'aran'rhiod ring? From Verin, just before she entered the Three Arches....There was a disturbance; Egwene was almost trapped in the dream world. Well, perhaps that's what happened again; The angreal just cut off the connection between Randland and [whereever]. So Moiraine and Lanfear are [whereever], not meeting eachother. Perhaps the DO decided to kill and reincarnate Lanfear, because it was too much effort to get her away from the Finns. Or the reincarnation was a punishment; A Forsaken beaten by an 'Aes Sedai' *Sneer* Tut Tut.
Maybe Balefire would have brought about some catastropic consequences. Maybe it would have backfired on Rand.
Did Mat learn anything in the Tear gateway? Maybe Moiraine is learning, gaining other people's memories. Female Heroes bound to the Horn of Valere might have something to do with it.
I like the idea of Min's only "incorrect" viewing being of Moiraine. I wonder what Min did actually see though....Was Moiraine helping Rand? Hindering Rand? Bringing Malkier back?
19
mandarb: 2003-03-17
I think that Moiraine doesn't use balefire because that would be very dangerous. Lanfear would sense that much power about to be used and would blast her. Remember, she had a moment's warning, enough to turn and face her. That was because Moiraine embrased the source. Rand saw her hurdle from seemingly "nowhere". So the only reason Lanfear wasn't taken by suprise and had time to turn, was she felt some woman embrace the source.
20
Weird Harold: 2003-03-17
Hydraan Sedai:
"Moiraine was adamant about the placement of the angreal."
"Maybe Balefire would have brought about some catastropic consequences."
"Maybe it would have backfired on Rand."
Moraine's letter to Rand says she saw three possible results from the encounter at the docks. Two of them led to disaster for Rand.
Moraine was adamant about the placment of the door ter'angreal and having it uncovered. She placed the bracelet angreal Lanfear picked up next to it and then adjusted it's position slightly.
I think those actions were setting up the "third" possibility as the most likely, knowing that it meant the end of any knowledge of the world beyond that point. -- except for that "one little thing that doesn't concern you"
Hydraan Sedai:
"I wonder what Min did actually see though...."
Min saw a lot of things about Moraine whenshe first met her, and again when everyone was in Baerlon that we're never told about. Almost all of her critical viewing since then are at least hinted at, and moriane isn't invlved in them. That leaves the viewing in Baerlon. MOST of her "critical viewings" up to that point -- those she knows what they mean -- were apparently related to Love and Marriage. I think she saw Moraine and Thom marrying when she first saw them together. Thatwould fit with her sureness that Thom had survived the Fade and would survive Tanchico, and other hints that they will met again.
21
Shadow Bane: 2003-06-12
I too beleive Moiraine is alive, though maybe not well. In TEOTW Min sees the original party that left Edmonds Feild and says they all had a part to play, I think Moiraine hasnt fufilled all of hers yet. Thanks for writing this theory it brings up alot of key points.
22
rubbernilly: 2003-06-13
1) I definitely see parallels of Gandalf the Grey returning as Gandalf the White in Moiraine (the Blue) returning from the Finn
2) I say this a lot, but we don't know that Moiraine and Lanfear were separated. When Mat, Rand, and Moiraine entered the doorway in Tear, they entered separately. Moiraine and Lanfear were grappling and holding on to each other when they fell through. They could have been together on the other side.
3) What Moiraine said to Thom in the Stone (to get his help) can't be used as proof that she knew she would return, nor of what she saw through the doorway, for the reasons stated already above.
4) Perhaps the reason Moiraine hasn't returned is that she refuses to ask her question or to set a bargaining price for the asking. Maybe she is just waiting for her rescue? Maybe she doesn't know to ask but realizes that the Finn are trying to bargain for something?
23
anderwarrick: 2003-06-13
Here is something else that helps prove that she is not dead. It's from her letter to Rand that he reads after she fights Lanfear:
"Since the first day I reached Rhuidean, I have known--it need not trouble you how; some secrets belong to others, and I will not betray them--that a day would come in Cairhien when news would arrive of Morgase. I did not know what that would be--if what we heard is true, the Light have mercy on her soul; she was willful and stubborn, with the temper of a lioness at times, but for all that a true good and gracious queen--but each time the news led to the docks on the following day. There were three branches from the docks, but if you are reading this, I am gone, and so is Lanfear. . . .
The other two paths were much worse. Down one, Lanfear killed you. Down the other, she carried you away, and when next we saw you, you called yourself Lews Therin Telamon and were her devoted lover.
I hope that Egwene and Aviendha have survived unharmed. You see I do not know what happens in the world after, except perhaps for one small thing which does not concern you."
tFoH (900)
The main part that helps is this: "You see I do not know what happens in the world after, except perhaps for one small thing which does not concern you."
This can mean three things as I see it:
1- Her death by the hands of the Finn.
2- She survived and will be saved.
3- She survived and has or will get out somehow.
Number 1 is likely since she would probably think that things were the same as the other doorway and could get herself killed like Mat did.
Number 2 is what most people that think she's still alive believe. Most of them think that she will be saved by Thom with some help from Olver since he plays the game so much. Sometimes they like to throw in Mat since he's done so much with the Finns.
Number 3 I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that she might escape. She could escape and then knowing that Rand knows that you can disguise with the One Power might think it's a forsaken to trying to get close to him to kill him, so she would stay away, but still try to manipulate things. For all we know, Moiraine could have gone to Cadsuane and told her what happened and convinced her to lead Rand to the Last Battle like Moiraine did.
I personally think that she figured that the different Finns would be different so she asked to bargain for the stuff and then got out as one of her 'wishes' to help guide Rand without letting him know she's guiding him. I kind of like the idea that she convinced Cadsuane to guide him.
24
Dorindha: 2003-06-13
I thought at the time that the "thing which does not concern you" is her marriage (or whatever) to Thom, as there have been several other hints at this, and the fact she left a letter with Rand for Thom. I refer to the parts where Moiraine comments on knowing the face of her husband - I know she sort of fudges her statement afterwards, but I do think she meant it.
The Moiraine thing really needs to be cleared up - RJ has said he's not going to tie up all the loose ends, but if he leaves this one free, there will be a lot of very frustrated people round here!
25
Yaga Shura: 2005-02-15
I don't think that Moiraine has persuaded Cadsuane to take her place by Rand's side because Cadsuane is very dismissive of what Moiraine did.
Call me crazy, but my theory is that Moiraine is now a voice inside Lanfear's(Cyndane's) head,like LTT is to Rand, as a kind of unintended side effect of them going through the doorway together. At any rate, I'm convinced that those two are linked together somehow.
26
Jiana: 2005-02-15
I for one would like some clarification, Yaga, as to why you think that Moiraine and Cyndane are mentally linked? What would be the purpose? What would be the cause? It's very difficult to say what is far-fetched in this world and what isn't, but the two of them being linked in some way seems far-fetched to me. Mostly its that Lanfear loathes anyone that isn't herself or LTT. If Moiraine were in Lanfear/Cyndane's head, we should have picked up some kind of disgust over it from Cyndane's POV. However, I do have one question for anyone and everyone who has an answer, or even a speculation. Does anyone know how long you can be in the 'finn world without making your wishes or asking your questions? What if, when Lanfear & Moiraine went through the doorway, it killed the "greeter." If there's no greeter, then... where does a person go? Does some other 'finn come and lead the person to the right spot? Or does the person just wander... Who knows? But think on this: Moiraine is Cairhienin (try to type that one really fast!). I'm not just stating the obvious here--think about what Cairhienins are known for. Daes Dae'mar, right? What if she & Lanfear did inadvertently kill the "greeter" on the other side of the doorway... Regardless of what happened to Lanfear, lets say that Moiraine is eventually left alone. Having been through the other doorway & knowing its purpose, she could surmise the purpose for the one she just entered. So, being Cairhienin, she will take her time and think out the wording of her three wishes, so that there can be little or no room for the 'finns to play with her. In that way, she could get exactly what she wants... which is most likely that she be there for Rand when the time comes, and until then have someone else to guide him. But it could just as easily be that she wants a quick roll in the hay with Thom. :)
27
BKVMC: 2007-07-29
i dont think Moiraine killed lanfear but i DO think lanfear crossing into the Finn territory Did kill her as a by product. questions touching on the shadow can be dangerous being asked in finn land how would they respond to a vessel of the shadow entering their world? i think the finn killed lanfear thats why the DO was able to ressurect her soul. i believe Moraines role in AMOL will be her coming back and that will teach Rand laughter and tears at the same time.
