s Rand the Last Dragon?
by Car a carn: 2003-02-22 | 5 out of 10 (6 votes)
In book 3 I found something that suggests that Rand is not the last incarnation of the Dragon. On page 9, commentaries on the Prophecies of the Dragon, state 'And his paths shall be many, for he SHALL BE born among us MANY times, in many guises, as he has been and ever WILL BE, time without end'(Capitlising added in.) This line was written in 742 AB in Randland, and speaks of the Dragon's many incarnations in the future tense. I guess somewhere down through the endless ages of the Wheel the DO has to make another appearance somewhere, and so heralding more Dragons.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2003-02-22
I would agree, but that is a good quote to prove the point. This isn't the THE last battle with the DO. Just as LTT was reborn in the second Age, this current Age, I would assume he will be reborn sometime in the last four ages of this turning of the wheel. Great quote.
2
Dragons Shadow: 2003-02-24
Just a short note. Didn't Ishmael say that "this time is different, this time the Great Lord controls death. This time there will be no rebirth for you. This time you WILL serve the Great Lord in death if not in life" (or something like that)
Ishmael/Morridin was a philosopher (even if he WAS insane) and most true philosiphers would die rather than spout an untruth about their own philosiphy. He truly believes this is different. Then again he could be wrong.
3
Dedicated: 2003-02-24
Ishy is wrong. He was probably just trying to scare Rand with those comments. He was also probably alluding to the fact that if Rand died the Shadow would probably stomp the Light. The DO only has control of the Forsaken's souls when they die (read Tam's black cord synopsis for more info). He has no control over other souls.
4
Rand alThor15: 2003-03-07
Dedicated, are you sure about that?
i remember reading a part where, while rand was fighting Ba'azalmon that his mother, Kari(not the maiden) was talking to him, asking him for his help and for him to free her. If he has no control over souls other then the Forsaken, how was he able to do that?
5
Tamyrlin: 2003-03-07
Yes, Dedicated is correct. Rand was not talking or fighting the DO, he was fighting Ishamael. They were in T'A'R, and Ishamael as he had done various times before and after, created the illusion of Rand's mother in order to spur him on. Ishamael for sure has no control over souls...myrradraal can't "hold souls" and Rand can't release souls. It was T'A'R and it was an illusion.
6
araqyl: 2003-04-26
Response to Dragons Shadow:
Ishamael's basic assumption in making his claim of the Dragon being trapped was the DO winning - ie, if Rand wins and the DO is destroyed or sealed away then the Dragon will be Reborn in time to face the DO next time he appears.
7
clocklotion: 2005-06-01
I tried to post this theory as an original one but Tam brought it to my attention that somebody beat me to the punch. I'll have to think up something else creative.
Ok, not that I necessarily believe in this theory but I have to be the Devil's Advocate and show what I think is some evidence for this theory.
Here is my copy and paste:
What if Rand isn't the Dragon but the last "great" False Dragon before the true Dragon comes? What if he is merely the blunt snow plow that takes all the abuse and clears the path for the sleek limosuine that follows close behind (pardon the metaphor but that's all I could come up with).
I think the greatest support for this theory comes in Eye of the world with Rand's first dream-meeting with Ba'alzamon. On page 204 (paperback edition), Ba'alzamon (Ishmael) comes to Rand's dreams soon after they reach Baelron and in the dream Ba'alzamon says that Rand will be used by the White Tower, just like (names are a direct quote from the dialogue between the two at the time) Davain, Yurian Stonebow, Guaire Amalasan, Raolin Darksbane, and even Logain were (are) being used.
Now, notice he does not say Lews Therin Telamon or any other true Dragon but only names FALSE dragons.
Is the Dark One (and/or RJ) trying to tell us that Rand is not the Dragon but merely another 'great' False Dragon that will as Thom says shake the very pilllars of heaven?
Of course Ba'alzamon or Ishmael or whoever it is is the "Father of Lies" and he could be lying, but why would he? At this point Rand has absolutely no idea that he could be the Dragon. All he's trying to prevent is becoming tied to Aes Sedai. He doesn't know he can channel yet, so why would the DO compare Rand to a false Dragon unless it were somehow important?
Let me know what everybody thinks.. but think about it like this, deception and lies play a HUGE part in the series and if you were playing the last and largest and greatest assault on the most fearsome and most evil and most powerful evil in the universe would you be so obvious about it as to draw absolute danger to yourself? Or would you send decoys, all the time keeping the true weapon secret, waiting to spring your trap until the very last second when absolutely no-one would expect it?
8
zionsrose: 2005-06-02
Clocklotion-> didn't Perrin and Mat also know those names from their dreams? I'm just re-reading the series and I actually just got to the part where the boys are telling Moraine about their dreams and all of the boys had had the same dream with all of the false dragon names in it. On page 643(paperback) Mat is actually the first to say that in their dreams they were told that the Amyrlin Seat would use the chosen one (since it is still at the time not known which one is the DR).
I also think that Rand is not a false dragon just for the reason that he has already fulfilled so many prophecies and bound so much to him. If he wasn't the real dragon the false ones (taim and logain) wouldn't have fallen, and probably more people would be claiming to be the dragon reborn.
Moraine also says “When you believe the Father of Lies, it is the first step toward surrender. Remember, if you surrender to the Dark One, he will make you his”(p644).
I think that this was probably just a tactic Ishamael was using to weaken his enemy in hopes of turning them.
Or it just occurred to me that maybe Logain's later glory could be to step in at the LB and ‘finish the job' for Rand. {{shrug}} maybe...
9
Callandor: 2005-06-02
**What if Rand isn't the Dragon but the last "great" False Dragon before the true Dragon comes? What if he is merely the blunt snow plow that takes all the abuse and clears the path for the sleek limosuine that follows close behind (pardon the metaphor but that's all I could come up with).**
He's not. Rand is the Dragon Reborn. Proof is that he has fulfilled and is fullfulling the Prophecies of the Dragon, no more False Dragons have appeared since he proclaimed himself, and he is Lews Therin's soul reborn.
**Now, notice he does not say Lews Therin Telamon or any other true Dragon but only names FALSE dragons.**
Well, Lews Therin of course was not used by the White Tower -- it wasn't created then.
**Of course Ba'alzamon or Ishmael or whoever it is is the "Father of Lies" and he could be lying, but why would he?**
Because he wants the Dragon to kneel to the Shadow which is assumed the event that will allow the Dark One to be freed.
**Or would you send decoys, all the time keeping the true weapon secret, waiting to spring your trap until the very last second when absolutely no-one would expect it?**
But the False Dragons were not decoys -- they weren't anything but people thinking highly of themselves.
10
Yaga Shura: 2005-06-02
Clocklotion: The main problem has to be the Karaethon Cycle. It contains many prophecies about the Dragon that have been fulfilled by Rand.
Although obviously if it is the case that Rand is the final False Dragon, then it would be terminally stupid to have the prophecies say "the man who does this wont actually be the Dragon, ha ha made you look!", this idea leaves basically nothing in the series that relates to Rand or any prophecy/viewing/foretelling as verifiable fact. I like outlandish ideas, but this would be the epitome of bad storytelling.
The reason Ishamael names all those false dragons is only to make Rand believe he is being manipulated, and to bring out his Manetheren stubborness so that he will rebel against Moiraine and either die or become far easier for the Shadow to gain control over.
11
snakes-n-foxes: 2005-06-02
Just a little off topic, but talking about Rand having been born many times over...it's obvious that Randland is a future earth (eg the Mercedes Benz symbol found in the Panache of Tarabon's museum), and quite easy to tell that Artur Hawking was once King Arthur Pendragon of Medieval England, but who has Rand been, seeing as he seems to be the greater Ta'veren ?
12
snakes-n-foxes: 2005-06-02
Doh, never mind....his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghoul (or however its spelt) sacrifice for mans salvation (I think that was the right quote)
13
Narianna: 2005-06-03
one more point against this theory.RJ has stated many times that rand is the rebirth of the soul of LTT who was/is/will be the creator's champion.This pretty much rules out the idea of "a great hoax" or a secret weapon.
14
Davian93: 2005-06-04
****I think that this was probably just a tactic Ishamael was using to weaken his enemy in hopes of turning them****
Exactly, Ishy spent the first 3 books trying to turn Rand to the DO before finally trying to kill him at the end of TDR.
Without a doubt, Rand is the Dragon just as LTT was the Dragon and so on an so on through the ages. This is a cyclical universe, not a linear one. The Dragon is the Creator's Champion, (ala Belgarion from the Eddings series) as Ishy is the DO's Champion. Rand is not going to break the wheel, end the cyclical history, or do any of the other off the wall things that would make "this time different" Tarmon Gaidin is the Last Battle of the 3rd Age, not the last battle ever.
15
Kantuna: 2005-06-04
Clocklotion
You ask why the creator didn't send decoys, instead putting the DR straight into the way of danger.
Well, I think he did.
It's pretty certain that Rand is the DR. So where were his decoys? Well, since the DR will obviously be Ta'veren, it's safe to say that the decoys should be too. Thy should be about his age, and have their own special abilities like the DR would have. And, lastly, the decoys should be close to the true Dragon Reborn for most of his life.
I can't think of anybody who fits that profile.
So is this the creators intention for Mat and Perrin - 2 decoys until the Dragon Reborn is ready to takepower at the Stone of Tear?
Yes. I think they were intended as decoys, but ta'veren can force it's own path in the pattern, and go it's own way after the danger has passed, and the Dragon is safe. That would explain the fact that three Ta'veren are in the same place at the same time.
Any thoughts?
16
Anubis: 2005-06-06
If you think about it, Ishmael did a really horrible job of trying to turn Rand. The whole serve me or die approach doesnt really work unless you can actually follow through with the threat. And besides, if someone sent trollocs after me I would be their enemy on general principle.
17
Narianna: 2005-06-06
well anubis is right. all ishy managed to do was to bring out the stubbornness in rand and set his path for once and for all. i wonder if lanfear had got out of bore sleisha early, and she would have got to rand ...
18
Callandor: 2005-06-06
**The whole serve me or die approach doesnt really work unless you can actually follow through with the threat.**
Well, he was trying to at the end of The Great Hunt and The Dragon Reborn. In one case, Rand barely survived and still carries the wound, in the other he grabbed one of the most powerful objects in the world, and used it against Ishamael. Tough things to go up against, as well as a ta'veren ;) But yes, it wasn't the greatest of all turnings but it sure was an attempt.
