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uplicate Personality Processing

by a dragonburned fool: 2004-06-21 | Not yet rated

Previous Categories: Rand and the Last Battle

This is a theory about how Rand's and LTT's personalities are related, so that LTT is as real as Rand's one, and they are equally real for the one Rand/LTT soul. For to acchieve that, this theory developes a basic explanation of how souls relate to personalities.

Acknowledgements:

I have to express my special thanks to Isabel, who's "LTT is real" faction gave me the initial impuls and motivation to develop that theory, and to Callandor, who's theories concerning Rand-LTT connection, I used as a base of my own argumentation (in spite of Callandor's theory was actually used for arguing for the concurrent statement of "LTT is Rand's construct").

The first of Calalndor's idea's I use here is, that there are barriers between the memories from the different lives of a soul, so that in normal case an incarnated soul cannot have any access to anything related to it's past lives, and the incarnated personality is situated in something like a jar, dividing it from all the other life experience from other lives, assotiated with the same soul; but the Taint on saidin corrodes this barrier between personalities, and a partian interchange of memories occurs to channelers. The another Callandor's idea, I make usage from is, that the cybernetical term of "black box" can be used to explain how the taint-affected channelers do with the memories from past lives happenning to them. So, a living sentient being has any kind of experience, whatever origin this experience has, as just the same kind of input, and as result of this experience processing a personality developes.

part 1: Normal Personality to Soul connection

I'll begin with a quote from an interview, where Jordan gives the most detailed explanation about the Rand-LTT relations and the conception of "personality" at all:

"Audience: The question is, with Rand and LTT, do they have 1 soul or 2 souls in the body?

Robert Jordan: They have 1 soul with 2 personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I came hobbled together."

So:

1. The soul incarnates, a life begins with no pesonality, and as the person grows up and has life experience, the personality develops. The life ends, the soul reincarnates and everything continues from the beginning: new life begins with no personality, that develops new personality, etc.

2. After death, the memories from the past life are not lost. They are accessible by some odd methods and are in some way linked to the soul. The Heroes of the Horn use all of them (i.e. all the personalities already developed) while in TAR. The personality is also not lost with death, because DO can take a death Forsaken and put his/her personality into another body. As seen in the example of Balthamel-Halima the new body begins to influence a development of new aspects of the personality, but the base is exactly the personality that lived the last time and it continues the Balthamel-live. When the soul is reincarnated, the personality comes no more together with the soul, but it is not lost, it is in some way linked to the soul.

3. Memories apparently come together with the personalities. IMO among other function the personality provides the organization of the integrity of the memories, it is the organization and control over them. Without personality memories of the thread's life experience would be disperse events, like dreamed scenes. Soul when reincarnating, gives up all the past memories, so old personality is divided from the soul, and even cen be accessed by other souls if 'finns grant such access.

4. From #3 and #1 is clear that the soul is dividible form the personalities, that manage the complexes of memories, and that souls have to do with multiple independent personalities. From #2 and #2 is clear that no personality is lost, that they are somewhere around the soul and accessible under some conditions. So a problem comes: how the soul keeps it's connection with a personality. A soul can disconnect from a personality, so it must connect to a thread first. When a soul is in flesh, it must assotiate with the current personality and use that personality to manage the integrity of the current life experience.

5. For that reason there must be some mechanism for the soul to authenticate the personality it uses. Maybe it is the reason for the past memories to be designed to be inaccessible from the new life: access to past memories would mean dealing with another personality, and that could damage the normal process of animate thread.

6. So, when a soul is reborn, a barrier is build to divide the soul's processing from any other stuff that this soul worked with earlier. The soul is insulated, and begins to process any input independent from any other processes, the same soul had maintained previously. The soul is directed only to one "interface", that works like a black box. The process in this black box is actually a particular personality.

part 2: Taint's influence on Soul-Personality connection

The Taint damages the barrier between the current Life experience (LE) and the past lives. The Taint corrodes this barrier and a holes in it appear, so that the contents from the one side can drain into the another. But the barrier is not destroyed, it remains to exist, it is only damaged.

Let see what happens to the considerations from part 1 under this condition:

1. The new personality still develops using the current life. The Taint begins to actonly when a channeller begins to channel and that is a fact only when he has a developed new personality. The old memory, i.e. that from the other side of the barrier, is assotiated with another personality. So two independent personalities have some contact between each other.

2. But they have the same soul as their core. The old personality is present from the other side of the barrier when the Taint begins to act.

3. Every personality organizes it's own set of LE (life experience) and every memory item is part of it's own organization. The old memories are yet organized, and (#2) their organization is present in the form of old personality.

4. This old personality was what the soul used in the past life to process it's LE exactly as it uses the new personality for processing the new LE. The soul disconnected from the old personality, but now the disconnected personality comes again around.

5. How the soul will know in that case which life it lives currently? The soul has access to more then one thread-drivers now. The one is already in process (current life), but the other has everything to be processed too. Both connections are connections of the same soul to a life.

6. Because the barrier is still existing, but damaged, the both personalities are still insulated in their base (not merged), but the process from any part of the barrier is no more clear form intervention. Some experience drains between the both sides of the barrier, and from the both sides there is a personality that processes what it finds as LE. Form the both sides the personalities find both their own LE and the LE of the other personality and process both. Channeler's interpretaional ability is designed to work as a black box, but this is the situation for the both personalities. Each personality was a black box originally. Now there are two black boxes with a hole between them. Each black box is like an engine that produces sentient life. One soul is the energy that feeds them. One soul runs two processes (the both black boxes) in the same time feeding them with the same LE.

Summary:

(applied to Rand-LTT case)

So, when the jar lid is damaged, the soul feeds not only it's own black box, but also another black box from outside of the jar, and a duplicate black box processing occurs. The result of that is that the soul maintains two different personalities in the same time.

1. Untainted (sane) process:

LE -> Soul: via | in-jar mind | = current personality

(where "LE" is Life experience of a particular person)

2. Tainted (jar with holes) process:

Rand's LE + LTT's LE -> Soul: via |in-jar mind| = Rand

.................... -> Soul: via |out-jar mind| = LTT

One and the same soul processes it, but via two parallel interfaces, one of them in-jar (Rand's) one of them out-jar (LTT's). Rand's black boxes processes mainly Rand's LE, but also some sparse LTT's memories, that are the memories that Rand remembers and know what they mean. LTT's box processes most of Rand's LE combined with his own memories, and so he can react to almost everything that happens to Rand, but so, that Rand doesn't understand completely what LTT means, but only hears his voice as another person's.

The soul don't know what is it's current life. Both lives have their own personalities, and exactly personalities are what manages LE in the world. So the soul uses both as parallel processes.

So: one soul (one processing unit) and two personalities (two black boxes with damaged discrecy between them).

Implications:

1. That would explain the issues with the activity of LTT's voice in his immediate reaction to what happens with Rand, while Rand don't know the exact experience, LTT is basing on, but only what LTT currently remembers and only in the range LTT currently is thinking about. If LTT was Rand's construct, it would use more memory flashbacks (as it is the case with Mat's foreign memories) and not so much references on not-explained past memories, as LTT uses to do. LTT is seeing what Rand sees, but Rand doesn't see, what LTT have seen in his time, nor LTT knows what Rand have experienced before the beginning of Rand's channelling. When Rand is using something from LTT's experience, Rand never remembers scenes when LTT used something (like Mat uses his memories), but rather LTT sees what's the situation, thinks about what is appropriate (as if it is what happens with himself) without details and Rand uses that thought.

2. As in TAR the Heroes of the Horn have usage of all their memories, but have only one personality, they use, this must be the normal state. So Rand's problems with LTT would be solved, if Rand manages to merge the two parallel processes into only one. That would be supported by Min's viewing about the two person's in Rand - one to live and one to die. It's another question into which exactly: Rand's or LTT's or something else. But it has to be done in the way, in that HotH merge their personalities into one.

3. As the Bubble of Evil that happened to Rand in Tear also has to do with weakening of barrier caused by DO's substance, and with appearance of doubles that want to feed themselves from the same thread (however in the BoE IMO the doubles wanted to be feeded not by the soul but by the thread), the way Rand coped with the problem in Tear could be similar to the way for Rand to solve the problems with LTT. If so, the Duplicate Personality Processing theory would allow that by maximal intensificating the exchange between the both processes of the same soul, so that Rand and LTT couldn't be processed in separate way more.

4. Moiraine knows from Rhuidean, that if Lanfear wins in Cairhien, the Dragon would become LTT only. Maybe Lanfear was able to suppress the process "Rand" so, that only the process "LTT" remains in the Dragon's thread. In Cairhien Lanfear seemed to try to dissimilate Rand from inside him.

5. The ambivalent Forsaken's reaction on Rand's identity seems to mean that in the same time he is both LTT and Rand al'Tor, and that both rejecting that he is LTT and calling him LTT are appropriate.

6. The both sides in Tarmon Gaidon could have more need of such dual personality then from simply a 3Ager. So Tarmon Gaidon would be both: 1. legitimate and immediate continue of LTT's fight against DO and 2. an event that is prepared by the whole history of the 3Age and thus resolves the plotlines, the Wheel had woven during that Age.
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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2004-09-09

(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
More information has been uncovered since the last time this set of theories has been debated ( http://www.theoryland.com/chronicles.php?user=golden&page=a ).
i'm curious, are you implying that Rand's ability to access LTT was planned? Or that the Taint inadvertantly created this situation, and that both sides plan to capitalize on it?

2

Callandor: 2004-09-09

**The personality is also not lost with death, because DO can take a death Forsaken and put his/her personality into another body.**

**Memories apparently come together with the personalities.**

Since they are most likely the thing that makes a personality (the sumation of an entire life), it is an obvious assumption ;). Entirety, is the key.

** Soul when reincarnating, gives up all the past memories, so old personality is divided from the soul, and even cen be accessed by other souls if 'finns grant such access.**

Don't know what you mean here, but I can only guess you mean Mat, which is wrong. Mat's memories are not his own, nor are they from his ancestors or past incarnations.

**From #2 and #2 is clear that no personality is lost, that they are somewhere around the soul and accessible under some conditions.**

Disagree. What is to keep the personality going? There are no more experiences to be had for that soul, since it is dead and reborn as a new personality; all the memories go to the reborn personality, not to the past one.

What purpose does the personality serve, after death? Sure, let's say personalities organize memories into cohecive forms, but there is nothing to say they do not do this during the lifetime, and cease to be needed after death. Hence, the personality is in almost all context, destroyed (no purpose, no place, no need).

**But the barrier is not destroyed, it remains to exist, it is only damaged.**

Alright, someone gets that point ;).

**So two independent personalities have some contact between each other.**

Disagree again. A memeory does not equate to a personality. Personality is a collection. A person would need all the memories to have a second personality, unless it's a construct.

**The soul disconnected from the old personality, but now the disconnected personality comes again around.**

Roving personalities....

**The soul has access to more then one thread-drivers now.**

So, then the person has two threads, branching off, so to speak?

**Some experience drains between the both sides of the barrier, and from the both sides there is a personality that processes what it finds as LE.**

Disagree. Personality stops, dies, it's over once a person dies. It has no more purpose anymore, and it's job is done. There is nothing left to process.

**One and the same soul processes it, but via two parallel interfaces, one of them in-jar (Rand's) one of them out-jar (LTT's).**

In essence, two threads. Huh.

**The soul don't know what is it's current life.**

This just seems wrong. It doesn't know which life is the new incarnation, so it covers both? Rand's personality has been ever changing, even after LTT showed up in his head. LTT, for lack of any other true context, has remained the same insane self.

**If LTT was Rand's construct, it would use more memory flashbacks (as it is the case with Mat's foreign memories) and not so much references on not-explained past memories, as LTT uses to do.**

So, Rand's construct would need flashbacks (for, some odd reason), but Mat has the flashbacks and no constructs at all. Mat is just an anamoly I guess....

**LTT is seeing what Rand sees, but Rand doesn't see, what LTT have seen in his time, nor LTT knows what Rand have experienced before the beginning of Rand's channelling.**

Rand has seen things in the AoL, memories of Lews Therin in the AoL, and, yes, flashbacks.

Those seem quite ignored.

**If so, the Duplicate Personality Processing theory would allow that by maximal intensificating the exchange between the both processes of the same soul, so that Rand and LTT couldn't be processed in separate way more.**

English please....

**4. Moiraine knows from Rhuidean, that if Lanfear wins in Cairhien, the Dragon would become LTT only.**

Well, or he would die.

**In Cairhien Lanfear seemed to try to dissimilate Rand from inside him.**

Unique way of saying she is trying to kill him.

**5. The ambivalent Forsaken's reaction on Rand's identity seems to mean that in the same time he is both LTT and Rand al'Tor, and that both rejecting that he is LTT and calling him LTT are appropriate.**

?

Because the Forsaken know he is the soul of Lews Therin reborn, and they knew Lews Therin personally in an all out war against him, and use this as an identifier, not as his current incarnation (Graendal seems to have coped with that), and more of a jibe to Rand, which he is unaware of unless they call it to his face.

3

Frenzy: 2004-09-14

To give you an idea of how long we've been debating this issue, over in the Chronicles Deornoth wrote this... back in 2000: http://www.theoryland.com/chronicles.php?user=deornoth&page=a

4

a dragonburned fool: 2004-09-20

Short time after I wrote this theory in June, there was a hot discussion about the same topic on the message board, and many things, I haven't considered in that time, became "uncovered" for me - now I know how old and rich is the tradition in the discussing this thema, how ridiculous it was to discuss it as if it is said for the first time; also now I don't think the concurrent hypothesis about LTT being a construct is so pointless, I thought before (actually most arguments for the theory I stand for, could be used also for arguing for the construct-theory); also it seemed I defined not very well the role of personality for holding memories together, and now I would not stand for the idea, that finn-granted memories and Rhuidean memories provide also the personalities to the new observer. Also now I'm not sure that it was exactly the Taint that broke the barrier between personalities and However the main idea and lot of the details are IMO still well working explanation of the Rand's situation.

Before to answer particular questions I wanted to add something more about the concept of personality. It's wide acccepted definition that the "personality" is a collection of the whole memories. This definition is true, but for definitely unsufficient, especially for the discussed case. I'll say also, it's even not the most important thing in a personality. Personality is not simply bunch of impressions from the past life stored somewhere, but the ability to react on the present events based on the past collection. Personality is the usage of the entire collection of memories for to behave in a current situation against a new, maybe uncommon situation. Personality is the free usage of the past experience in achieving new experience, personality is the link between the old and the new experience, that in the life of the mind, that makes it organicaly whole biography. Personality is the dynamical entiry, that plays the story of life. Personality is soul's interface to the contingence of the life-experience in the time.

Thread is also the entity that connects the soul and the physical life in the time. But the thread is, so to say, the interface from the side of the world, the body-soul connection from the Wheel's viewpoint. Personality is the interface from the side of the soul. There is need of such special entity - the personality, for the soul's activiyt and free will to have it's incorporation in the Pattern.

So I believe, that the "personality" is very important entity in WoT philosophy, maybe as important as soul or thread concepts, I like this concept, and I don't believe it could be explained away as some hairsplitting. Maybe that's the emotional reason for me to cannot believe that LTT's personality could be simply a construct ;)

...

***i'm curious, are you implying that Rand's ability to access LTT was planned? Or that the Taint inadvertantly created this situation, and that both sides plan to capitalize on it?***

Actually I don't know, both options are compatible with the theory. I'm stating only that Rand's situation is usable for both sides, and that both the Wheel and the Shadow now force the events so that Rand to come in his current situation. The sole existence of the Taint means that Rand will come into the situation to share his head with LTT's voice. The prophecies about the Dragon became knows some 30-40 years after the Tainting of saidin (as we know from the memories of Rand's ancestors). So maybe the current form of the huge "Dragon Reborn" plan of the Wheel for the whole 3Age was reaction of the Wheel against the unexpected event of the Taint.

About my statement that the barrier is not totally destroyed, it is the same statement as Your's, Callandor, but we interprete that in fairly different way. You conclude that the residue of the barrier means that Rand has still not the access to the full collection of LTT's memories and that, combined witht the Taint's continuing effects, makes Rand to "complete" the missing parts with his own madness. But I don't think that Rand's mind would need to complete the missing parts, because everybody copes well with similar incomplete parts from memories from dreams. And why Rand has normal remembering about some things but needs LTT's voice to say him other things? My interpretation is different: The still existing barrier makes the soul's mechanisms to "want" to keep the both lives divided and each controlled by it's own personality, but the hole in the barrier makes this dtill kept standalone LTT's personality to connect to the current time. I'll say that not Rand's access to old memories is the problem, but LTT's access to Rand's current experience, Rand's present time openness to out-of-thread ressources. Maybe Rand would even have normal Old-Blood like memories from LTT even without the Taint, I don't know (the Taint is still the best explanation). But I'm stating thet Rand's _memories_ from LTT's life (flashbacks, know-how about weaves, knowledge about Forsaken, everything Rand just knows about LTT without LTT having explicitely to say to Rand) is something different from what makes LTT's voice. What Rand sees from LTT's life is LTT's memories accessed and processed by Rand's personality. This things Rand becomes to know alone, without LTT's interaction, and Rand understands very well the reasons for what he knows. But when LTT says him something usefull, it's very different - it is also a LTT's memory, that comes to Rand , but that comes not to Rand's personality, Rand doesn't understand well what LTT is saying him, nothing about the reasons of it being so, and Rand's doesn't feel it, Rand only listens to LTT as if to the voice of somebody outside him. Also it's significant that LTT manifests lot of missundersanding of Rand's inner life, LTT seems to have access only to Rand's current outer environement, but not to Rand's memories, nor to Rand's feelings. LTT is only an observer of Rand's current life as if it's his experience. LTT's complaints about Rand's "crazy voice" in his head, his period of not believing that Rand is real, maybe that could be explained that madness may create srtange reactions, but my theory explains why LTT feels exactly so:

Rand's thread becomes it's improper connection to LTT's memory, the soul identifies LTT as separate and standalone personality, and that avoids the proper integration of LTT's experience into the new personality, but the old archive is nevertheless connected to the active thread, and that makes the old personality re-activated. It is something like running a new version of a program when an old version was not properly uninstalled, and some modules of the old one reactivate paralelly to the new process. The soul processes it's feeling about the events about Rand parallelly in two personalities. LTT's one is still thinking, that it's continuing of his old life, after he killed himself - now he sees strange life around him, cannot interfere, but only observes, and because of his grief about Ilyena he is feeling everything in very sad tones. He is thinking that he is in the Pit of Doom (when he is saying that, it is wrong, but sane conclusion, understandable in LTT's situation). He thinks, that Rand's thoughts are only a mad voice in his head, his hallucination. In the beginning neither Rand nor LTT accept each other's existence and don't speak to each other. Later they both try to make the other shut up. Later they begin to speak...

**What is to keep the personality going? There are no more experiences to be had for that soul, since it is dead and reborn as a new personality; all the memories go to the reborn personality, not to the past one.**

I agree, there is no reason, because personality's main function is exactly to process the new experiences. But for to have it's main function the personality has to organize the memories and to keep is as a whole, so the personality is actually encoded int the set of the memories. Something like the DNS left in the cut hair - the nature has no need to leave DNS in hairs, hairs don't need DNS in it, but it is still there.

**Personality stops, dies, it's over once a person dies. It has no more purpose anymore, and it's job is done. There is nothing left to process.**

No, personality is the feature of past experience to be applied to the new experience by some method. Yes, when a person dies, personality is becomes inactive, but everuthing it needs is to have new bit of experience to be applied to. Normally the laws of the Wheel prohibit it, but Rand's case is a fairly illegal case.

**A memeory does not equate to a personality. Personality is a collection. A person would need all the memories to have a second personality, unless it's a construct.**

Memories are not equal to personalities, but personalities need not all the memories. Personalities can remain personalities when forgetting very much. When Mat was under the effect of the dagger, he forgot really a lot, but that didn't desintegrate his personality, he was still the real Mat with his unforgettable style of life and with the whole continuence of it, he only had blank places in his memory, that was unpleasant for him, but made him not half-personality. Personality is not the sum of memories, but the principle that can hold this sum together, and that can join another experience to that sum. If a thread is to be compared with a manuscript, the personality will be not the whole foliant, but the art of writting, that can make you say that all the pages are written by the same hand (and if somebody inserts a page from another book it can be identified to being not from that book even if it's inside), and book with many missing pages remains this book.

**Rand's personality has been ever changing, even after LTT showed up in his head. LTT, for lack of any other true context, has remained the same insane self.**

Do not underestimate LTT's voice. Actually he is changing. And he is not so mad as it was to be expected from a taint-affected man. He is rather acting as one too deep in grief and still wanting to end up with his attempt of suicide. But with the time he begins to speak more and more with Rand and to change his opinion about some things.

Under "maximal intensificating the exchange between the both processes of the same soul, so that Rand and LTT couldn't be processed in separate way more" I meant, that if Rand and LTT communicate really very much, it could become impossible for the mechanism of feeding the personality still to consider them as separate personalities.

About Lanfear actions against Rand in Cairhien, I don't think her idea was to kill him. It was p[ossible for him to die in that scene, but Moiraine's Rhuidean visions say that it was also possible that Lanfear becomes a living LTT as result of her victory. Lanfear was ready to use the weave she used from the very beginning, so that would be what she would use against Rand also in that case of victory. Surely that would be what Lanfear would prefer before just dead Rand. So it's very possible that the main intention of the weave was to supress Rand's personality and to make the body clean for the implantation of anopther personality (every Forsaken would be interested in such weave, because they have to assure an existing body for them to be reincarnated in case of death. The same weave was used against Egwene and it caused her inability to access TAR for some time - and dreamwalking requires well functioningpersonality.

5

Callandor: 2004-09-20

**I agree, there is no reason, because personality's main function is exactly to process the new experiences. But for to have it's main function the personality has to organize the memories and to keep is as a whole, so the personality is actually encoded int the set of the memories. Something like the DNS left in the cut hair - the nature has no need to leave DNS in hairs, hairs don't need DNS in it, but it is still there.**

Once again, the personality as a "memory organizer" is not needed at all after death, and to keep organizing with no new memories is pointless. It can do all the organizations through the life of a person, then, once they're dead, oops! no more memories, nothing left to organize, personality terminated.

**No, personality is the feature of past experience to be applied to the new experience by some method. Yes, when a person dies, personality is becomes inactive, but everuthing it needs is to have new bit of experience to be applied to. Normally the laws of the Wheel prohibit it, but Rand's case is a fairly illegal case.**

No purpose, place, or reason for it to "be dormant". Not one.

**Do not underestimate LTT's voice. Actually he is changing.**

Really? Hmm. Nope, I don't see any.

**About Lanfear actions against Rand in Cairhien, I don't think her idea was to kill him.**

That is the absolute worse assumption to make. There is NO REASON AT ALL for Lanfear to think of anything but killing Rand.

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven

CHAPTER: 52 - Choices

Something that might have been anguish crossed her face; then it was a marble mask once more. “If you are not mine,” she said coldly, “then you are dead.”**

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven

CHAPTER: 52 - Choices

Unconscious, she would be as helpless as anyone else. Suddenly she seemed to realize what he was doing. Still blocking his blows as easily as if she could see every one, she danced backwards until her shoulders hit the wagon behind her. And she smiled like winter's heart. “You will die slowly, and beg me to let you love me before you die,” she said.**

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven

CHAPTER: 52 - Choices

“I'll make both of those trulls watch you beg,” Lanfear said. “But should I make them watch you die first, or you them?” When had she climbed into the open wagonbed? He had to watch her, watch for any hint that she was tiring, her concentration slipping. It was a vain hope. Standing beside the twisted doorframe ter'angreal, she looked down at him, a queen about to pass sentence, yet she could spare time for chill smiles at a dark ivory bracelet that she turned over and over in her fingers. “Which will hurt you most, Lews Therin? I want you to hurt. I want you to know pain such as no man has ever known!”**

Didn't want Rand to die? She wanted nothing but that!

6

Zader: 2004-09-22

Callandor

**Once again, the personality as a "memory organizer" is not needed at all after death, and to keep organizing with no new memories is pointless. It can do all the organizations through the life of a person, then, once they're dead, oops! no more memories, nothing left to organize, personality terminated.**

If this is true then Brigette has no personality, prior to being ripped out of T'A'R. She would also, only start developing a personality once she was ripped out. When the Heroes are called by the Horn, none of the Heroes could have a personality because when they died their personality would no longer be required. Brigette seems to stay consistent from the time we first meet her and after she is ripped out of T'A'R.

I believe personality is something more than just a “memory organizer”. I believe personality impacts on how we view the memories it organizes. As with the analogy of the glass half full or the glass half empty, part of the importance of personality is how we will react to certain events. If we believe the glass is half full we will act one way, if we believe the glass is half empty we will act another way.

One of the problems of being a HOTH, IMO is part of your personality has already been imprinted on you. As you grow your personality will grow as well, the memories will be important in how you grow, but I believe a HOTH will always be born with the same “half empty/half full” side to their personality.This may be one reason why they always become Heroes of different times.

7

a dragonburned fool: 2004-09-22

Callandor:

**Once again, the personality as a "memory organizer" is not needed at all after death, and to keep organizing with no new memories is pointless. It can do all the organizations through the life of a person, then, once they're dead, oops! no more memories, nothing left to organize, personality terminated.**

This would be so, is the "organizer" would be something outside the set of memories. But actually organizing memories is processing them and ... changing them. Everybody organizes his/her memories by seeing them in the manner his/her personality makes them to see in that way. The personality organizes memories by determining how exactly you remember your memories. When my personality is changed, I begin to remember the things in different way against what I remembered earlier (e.g. what I remembered when I was 15 about what I experienced when I was 10). Organizing memories is encoded in the memories themselves and if the memories are preserved, the code of the organizing mechanism is also there, because this organizer is what formatted these memories. Different soul would be not affected by that code, because it would need the same soul to activate, but the same soul accessing the memories will activate the old memory organizer. Zader understood it well.

However I don't agree with Zader, that Birgitte had no personality while in TAR. Actually Bigitte used her full experience to react against new events in TAR when she helped Elayne and Nynaeve and Perrin, and also in Falme. What she used for it if not a personality? When she was ripped away, she was not a child who has now to become to form a personality, but she used to react to everything happening around her in the specific manner based on her whole experience of her old lifes and her time in TAR.

I'll say, that Heroes in TAR master to pre-format the memories of old lifes using the personality of the life most close to what the Wheel wanted from this Hero, most close to the archetype.

And, Callandor, I have to agree, that Lanfear had the full intention to kill Rand in that case, and that this is the more likely purpose of the weave she used. In that case Lanfear was so angry, that she could want lot of contradicting things in the same time, she's definitely don't know what she really weants in this moment, but she really speaks too much about killing Rand, or at least to torture him, and that gives less place for my idea about the purpose of this weave to suppress Rand's personality and leave LTT's. However this possibility still exists, because in one of the future options seen by Moiraine, Lanfear has her faithful LTT as result from her actions at the docks.

And the changing of LTT: in the first time of his appearance as a voice he is only complaining about his situation and reacting to what happens as one would react to a dreams in fever. Later he begins to speak to Rand and to want kill male channelers - that's his angry period, when he was yet not ready to accept Rand's exisatnce, but when he became to react to what happened to him in AoL and to want to fix the problem as he could (by killing every male channeler for not to let them make what he (LTT) made first. Later he agrees that Rand exists and is in this head with right, he begins to speak "we" about them and to think about plans about the 3Age reality. He stops to express himself as #1 in the world (as his speaking about the great armies he leaded and so on) and bebins to act as councellor, something foreign to him in the AoL. He's not a good councellor, not at all, but he changed his self-image about his position.

8

Callandor: 2004-09-22

**If this is true then Brigette has no personality, prior to being ripped out of T'A'R.**

It's far different to have Birgitte in Tel'aran'rhiod having a summation of herself (called "Birgitte"), then for her to be able to turn into Maerion from one of her past lifes. Big difference.

**She would also, only start developing a personality once she was ripped out.**

Really? I don't see how that would be at all.

**And, Callandor, I have to agree, that Lanfear had the full intention to kill Rand in that case, and that this is the more likely purpose of the weave she used. In that case Lanfear was so angry, that she could want lot of contradicting things in the same time, she's definitely don't know what she really weants in this moment, but she really speaks too much about killing Rand, or at least to torture him, and that gives less place for my idea about the purpose of this weave to suppress Rand's personality and leave LTT's. However this possibility still exists, because in one of the future options seen by Moiraine, Lanfear has her faithful LTT as result from her actions at the docks.**

Bull. That is utter trash right there adf, and you should know that. Lanfear wanted absolutely nothing, but Rand dead after he turned her down (again). Her opinions haven't changed since her return (as per Cyndane). Doesn't know what she wants? She's one of the only characters to know EXACTLY what she has wanted since the beginning of the series. It came down to a choice with Rand, he spurned her, she decided that if she can't have him, he'll die. Where's the confliction?

9

Zader: 2004-09-23

ADF

**However I don't agree with Zader, that Birgitte had no personality while in TAR.**

I believe Birgitte has a personality, both in T'A'R and when she is ripped out. I was trying to point out to Callandor, that his belief, that the personality dies when the person dies, would exclude Birgitte from having a personality and she could only start developing a personality once she had been ripped out of T'A'R. Sorry for not making that clear.

Callandor

**It's far different to have Birgitte in Tel'aran'rhiod having a summation of herself (called "Birgitte"), then for her to be able to turn into Maerion from one of her past lifes. Big difference.**

I am not suggesting Birgitte and Maerion have exactly the same personality. I do believe though, faced with the same choice they would both make the same decision. Some people are just naturally laid back, others perpetually uptight, some cleanliness freaks, others slobs. These traits are at the core of our decisions. Part of Birgitte being Birgette are these core traits, therefore she always ends up being a hero because her core traits will not allow for anything else.

**She would also, only start developing a personality once she was ripped out.

Really? I don't see how that would be at all.**

As stated above Callandor, (unless you believe Birgitte never died) when Birgitte died, according to your theory, her personality was terminated, as well as every previous personality had been, at death. Unless Moggy gave her a new personality when she ripped her out of T'A'R , she could only start developing a personality once she had been ripped out.

10

a dragonburned fool: 2004-09-26

About Birgitte: she had personality in TAR, i.e. after her death, because her actions there need the functionality of personality and she continued that personality after she was ripped out. So the personality is something that in some extreme cases can come in a living thread from a life before that life. But even better evidence that personality is not absolutely terminated after the death are the recycled Forsaken: they die, they lose their threads, but their personality is preserved into new body. DO must do his work very quick for to recycle the Forsaken, and it is because the personality remains active some time after the death before it is shut up, so DO can still use it in that period if the soul is bound to him. Note: for to recycle the Forsaken DO needs not only the soul, but also the personality of his servant.

About Lanfear at the docks: Are You really stating Lanfear knew "exactly" what she wanted in this moment? In this moment of the most raging and uncontrolled anger in her seen by us onscreen, in that moment when she was angry enough to be uncautious about how DO will react to her actions? Everything Lanfear had in her head in that time was an uncontrolled emotion. I don't expect from her any "absolute" decisions in her situation. At the docks it is utter reaction of hyper-jealousy. Just before the moment Moiraine interfered, Lanfear begun to speak about different ways to act against Rand and Aviendha and she is sounding exactly as a person driven only by raging emotions and who could end with inpredictable decisions.

Also I don't think that Lanfear ever knew "exactly" what she wanted concerning LTT. She was all the time too OBSESSED with what she wanted for to have exact decisions. She wanted some combination of LTT, power and Glory, and I don't know how she could see anything rational in that wishes. Her behavior as Mierin was far from having clear rational task. Of course her obsession looks like she knows exactly what she wants, even more then by other people. It is common by obsession to look like clear decisions. But obsessions are not clear decisions, they only look like it. In obsessions a person is allways controlled by emotions too ambivalent and most often contradictory for to be dressed in rational form. Obsession makes one's actions contradictory but they still look like very clear decisions because of the intensity of the emotion. Lanfear is exactly obsessed with her wishes. And all her behavior in regard to LTT shows fairly good that her wishes were very, but very irrational.

Lanfear wants what she wants with wonderful stubornness, and the "else" is not something that she decided but only expression of her frustration. If she finds a chance to have her LTT in some incredible mode, she would immediately do it, and the whole stuff with killing is nothing but concomitant emotions.