1
Tamyrlin: 2005-03-10
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
So you're saying that the Pattern gave the Da'shain a bad deal to get them to abandon their pacifism and become warriors solely so that Rand would have a kick-ass army? What about free will? I suppose the Pattern tossed the Atha'an Miere out to sea for the sole purpose of giving Rand a kick-ass navy.
The Wheel coerced Mat into the Redstone doorway. Again, what about free will?
The crystal column ter'angreal was put in place by the last two Aes Sedai among the Jenn. It's designed to recount the Aiel's history to their leaders through the eyes of their ancestors. Since Mat is not Aiel, there's a strong possibility that nothing would have happened if he had entered the columns.
2
Dannil Lewin: 2005-03-10
I really wonder what Mat would have seen had he gone into the crystal columns...might he not have seen history through the eyes of his ancestors back to the time the bore was made? He didn't do this so it's basically a moot point, but it's interesting to think that might be the case...after all, why should the crystal columns only work for Aiel?
3
NargsBrood: 2005-03-10
Why would it not show just anyone the history of their ancestors through their ancestors eyes? If mat or perrin went through, it could have showed him what happened when his ancestors were broken by the troloc hordes.... how does the ter'angreal know if they are aiel or not? DNA testing with the OP?
4
Yaga Shura: 2005-03-11
I would go further than a "strong possibility" and say that if Mat had entered the glass columns then nothing would have happened. The reason being that the glass columns show the history of the Aiel through the eyes of the ancestors of the person doing the seeing. With Mat having such strong connections to the Old Blood of Manetheren, it seems impossible to say the least that he could have any Aiel blood in him.
5
rangkor: 2005-03-11
I don't see what "free will" has to do with anything in the wheel of time. The books say that one only has so much latitude to choose their path in life, that the wheel only accomodates small adjustments. "The Wheel Weaves..."
I think it is reasonable to suggest that the pattern set the Aiel up to serve a different purpose in rands age as Bane suggested.
6
Callandor: 2005-03-11
**I really wonder what Mat would have seen had he gone into the crystal columns...might he not have seen history through the eyes of his ancestors back to the time the bore was made? He didn't do this so it's basically a moot point, but it's interesting to think that might be the case...after all, why should the crystal columns only work for Aiel?**
Because they were set up that way? ;)
I know there was somewhere it said that the rings only work for the Aiel, but I'll need to look more for it.
7
bigjellybeans: 2005-03-11
It could be that the terangreal only reacts to the aiel blood line. Unfortunately we have not yet seen anyone not of the aiel blood go through the CC. But would there be a special reason that the aiel do not let any in accept that of the blood or might it be as simple as that Rhiudean is what they hold as theyre sacred place and they just dont want outsiders in there?
8
snakes-n-foxes: 2005-03-13
Nice theory, and pretty much what I've always thought.
Although I think if Matt went through the same doorway, he would see a history of his own ancestors. Don't know if he'd come out marked with anything.
Tamyrlin, free will is different from limited choices. A person can be in prison and still have free will, they can be offered a choice between life and death and still have free will.
Free will is the ability to make your own choice, even if what you have to choose between is bad and worse.
9
Frenzy: 2005-03-13
"Why would it not show just anyone the history of their ancestors through their ancestors eyes?"
Remember who put it there, and why. It was placed by the Jenn Aiel, on the orders of the last two Aes Sedai with them, so that the leaders of the Aiel would remember who they were, and why they were. That's a very specific reason, one rooted in prophecy. No matter which Aiel entered, they all saw the same events from the eyes of their specific ancestors. The ter'angreal has a specific program with a specific purpose. Without meeting that criteria, there's nothing to trigger it to fulfill its function of showing the Aiel who and why they are.
Sure, it *might* work for anyone, but for what purpose?
10
Yaga Shura: 2005-03-13
"I know there was somewhere it said that the rings only work for the Aiel, but I'll need to look more for it."
Moiraine went through the rings, and she was not Aiel.
11
Callandor: 2005-03-13
Typo. Meant the columns.
**TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 34 - He Who Comes With the Dawn
"Change," Rhuarc said. "You know he brings Change, Amys. It is wondering what change, and how, that makes us like children alone in the dark. Since it must be, let it begin now. No two clan chiefs I have spoken with have seen through the exactly same eyes, Rand, or exactly the same things, until the sharing of water, and the meeting where the Agreement of Rhuidean was made. Whether it is the same for Wise Ones, I do not know, but I suspect it is. I think it is a matter of bloodlines. I believe I saw through the eyes of my ancestors, and you yours."**
Might it have worked for Mat -- speculation. It could as easily be only accessible for Aiel, since they and the Aes Sedai placed them, and it shows their history (as far as we know). Then again, it could have worked for him -- or at the same time not worked, or possibly even killed him.
12
Zaela Sedai: 2005-03-14
She went through a different set of rings though. The same ones Aviendha went through. The ones they're talking about are the ones the Wise ones go through during their second trip to Rhuidean I believe.
13
Frenzy: 2005-03-14
There's only one set of Rings. The Rings are what the women go through on their first trip to become Wise One Apprentices. Their second trip takes them through the crystal columns. Aviendha went through the Rings and saw her fate, but she did not go through the crystal columns. Yet.
14
Zaela Sedai: 2005-03-15
Oh yeah, but the clan chiefs go through the columns right? All i meant was that Rand and Moiraine didn't go through the same ones.
15
Wielder of Waterflame: 2005-03-17
I think mat might see something in the columns... I don't know. I do want to point out that Rand went through the same columns as the clan chiefs, while Moiraine went through the same rings as the Wise Ones but not through any columns
16
Zaela Sedai: 2005-03-18
Yes that is what I said. I think those columns are definately meant for anyone to use. They are to bring you back in time through the eyes of your ancestors. That would be very interesting haveing someone else gor through them, seeing what they would come out with. If Mat did and survived he definately wouldn't have Dragons, but maybe something else, or maybe it's just a side effect of being Aiel. Interesting... I wonder if we'll see it, maybe a question for RJ?
17
Yaga Shura: 2005-03-18
So if anybody can use the columns, why did Rnad see his "blood-history" through the descendants of the Aiel, not through the descendants of Tigraine.
18
Davian93: 2005-03-20
****So if anybody can use the columns, why did Rand see his "blood-history" through the descendants of the Aiel, not through the descendants of Tigraine.****
Exactly...the columns were built Aiel specific. Not every Tom, Dick, and Harry can use them.
19
Daekyras: 2005-03-21
I don't necessarily agree that mat would see anything but as to why Rand saw his Aiel ancestry as opposed to tigraines side could just be a simple matter of seeing the Paternal blood line.
And from what I can remember, he always saw with the eyes of a man. maybe he can't be shawn a womans pov.
Maybe the wise ones see through the eyes of their mothers, grandmothers etc.
20
Wielder of Waterflame: 2005-03-21
Not necessarily. Rand saw his history through all male eyes; I think the history you see depends on gender. For example, Rand goes and sees through his father's bloodline, but I think that if Egwene had gone (just an example) she would have seen through her mother's eyes, and her mother's mother's, and her mother's mother's mother's eyes, and so forth. I hope this makes sense.
21
Bane Darkwulf: 2005-03-24
**So you're saying that the Pattern gave the Da'shain a bad deal to get them to abandon their pacifism and become warriors solely so that Rand would have a kick-ass army? What about free will? I suppose the Pattern tossed the Atha'an Miere out to sea for the sole purpose of giving Rand a kick-ass navy.
The Wheel coerced Mat into the Redstone doorway. Again, what about free will?**
Free Will is only what you choose to do with what you are given. The Aiel only choose the Warrior path because of some need to be Warriors, the Athan'Mere only became the Sea People because they were put out to sea. Sink or Swim, your choice. Are you telling me that your free will gives you complete control over your life??
22
fistandantilus: 2005-03-24
Bane, I agree whole heartedly. Free will is good and all, but the Wheel is the ultimate athourity in everyone's life.
As to the CC, how would it differentiate between Aeil and non-Aeil? I would tend to agree that they would show the past from the fathers' line for men, and the mothers' line for women. I don't think there is a way to differentiate between peoples so specifically with the Power.
23
Yaga Shura: 2005-03-25
"I don't think there is a way to differentiate between peoples so specifically with the Power. "
Not at the time during which the series is set, no, but the columns date back to the AoL and it seems probable that biologists in the AoL knew about DNA and could differentiate between genetic groups of people that way.
Further, if it is not possible for two different genetic types of people to be distinguished between, how is it possible to distinguish between individuals to only shw them the history of their ancestors?
24
Bane Darkwulf: 2005-03-28
**Not at the time during which the series is set, no, but the columns date back to the AoL and it seems probable that biologists in the AoL knew about DNA and could differentiate between genetic groups of people that way.
Further, if it is not possible for two different genetic types of people to be distinguished between, how is it possible to distinguish between individuals to only shw them the history of their ancestors?**
If you want to the genetic level, there would be numerous changes in two peoples makeups, where as the eyes of the father is one Chromosome.
25
Wielder of Waterflame: 2005-03-29
** Further, if it is not possible for two different genetic types of people to be distinguished between, how is it possible to distinguish between individuals to only shw them the history of their ancestors? **
One word: Magic.
26
gleeman: 2005-03-31
**The crystal column ter'angreal was put in place by the last two Aes Sedai among the Jenn. It's designed to recount the Aiel's history to their leaders through the eyes of their ancestors. Since Mat is not Aiel, there's a strong possibility that nothing would have happened if he had entered the columns.**
i dont think that the columns were there simply to be a history lesson for potential aiel chiefs. rather, the columns are there:
A) to test the will of potential leaders; and
B) to show wise ones and chiefs the truth about the aiel. this truth is necessary for them to understand why they must stay and suffer in the waste (til he who comes with the dawn arrives anyway) and not simply go out and conquer the wetlanders.
27
gleeman: 2005-03-31
**I would go further than a "strong possibility" and say that if Mat had entered the glass columns then nothing would have happened. The reason being that the glass columns show the history of the Aiel through the eyes of the ancestors of the person doing the seeing. With Mat having such strong connections to the Old Blood of Manetheren, it seems impossible to say the least that he could have any Aiel blood in him.**
and why would the columns discriminate due to blood? i think the columns would simply show who ever walks through them history of their ancestors.
but what about the markings? well, wise ones go through the columns too... do they have any dragon tattoos? (yes, i know that they may have markings somewhere else, but im working with whats provided) rather, i say that the dragons on the chiefs mark them as rand's. the dragons identify them as worthy of following the champion of the light.
28
Rune420: 2005-04-04
Step back: We don't even know for sure if the columns acctually do show the history through the eyes of your ancestors, that's just Rhuarch's and the chiefs' idea. Isn't it odd that all of Rand's "ancestors" were all leaders of the da'shain? What if a potential chief's ancestors weren't present for these monmental events?
Maybe the Columns just show the history through the eyes of important people in the Aiel's history.
29
Callandor: 2005-04-04
**Maybe the Columns just show the history through the eyes of important people in the Aiel's history.**
They're different.
**TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 34 - He Who Comes With the Dawn
"Change," Rhuarc said. "You know he brings change, Amys. It is wondering what change, and how, that makes us like children alone in the dark. Since it must be, let it begin now. *No two clan chiefs I have spoken with have seen through the exactly same eyes, Rand, or exactly the same things, until the sharing of water, and the meeting where the Agreement of Rhuidean was made. Whether it is the same for Wise Ones, I do not know, but I suspect it is. I think it is a matter of bloodlines. I believe I saw through the eyes of my ancestors, and you yours.*"**
30
Darren: 2005-04-04
No.
And once again, I'm disgusted to see selective quoting of the texts.
First, the law:
"The law is clear. No woman may go to Rhuidean more than twice, no man more than once, and none at all save they have the blood of Aiel."
Why? Well, the Aes Sedai who built Rhuidean built it before the Three Oaths bound them, but they were not evil, and the laws seem pretty clearly designed to limit deaths.
The fog of Rhuidean is only one of the many weavings very obviously placed on the city and the heart of it. And the columns are definitely in the fog.
The columns are for testing men and women of the Aiel blood, and it is important to remember that each step forward takes the men further back in time through the eyes of his ancestors. Ancestors that stretch all the way back in time to before the Breaking.
Mat, though of the Old Blood, is not of an ancient blood. There is even a passage in the texts that says the Aiel are an older bloodline than Manetheren.
Now that the fog of Rhuidean has been removed, it may well be that any could enter (in fact any that entered now might see nothing without a weave being set, for all we know) yet had someone entered before that time, presuming the weave allowed non-Aiel to survive it, (which I think is unlikely; even Asmodean only entered Rhuidean after much deliberation about the weaves placed) they would have had to have an ancestral line that dated back to before the Breaking of the World to reach the center. Mat's does not. He would not have survived.
The Dragons are obviously an effect of the weaving. They're gender specific, and power-wrought, and mark that the man has passed the test. The idea that there is a genetic animal that all people are linked to, is kind of funny, but not in a funny ha-ha way.
31
Wielder of Waterflame: 2005-04-04
No, not all the people who's eyes Rand saw through were leaders. I don't have my books, but there were those who rescued their sister (first breaking of the covenant) and those at the time of the first Maiden of the Spear. Besides, it is likely that there is more than one important event in each generation. Rand saw only one to a generation; other chiefs may have seen others. Through the eyes of their ancestors. Admittedly Rand's seem to be the most important, but that doesn't mean much. Any view of the Aiel's past, if it goes back long enough, could have tested the chiefs. The main part of the test is that they were Dai'shan Aiel, followed the way of the leaf, and broke their oath (They have toh that they cannot fulfill.) Not all of these events would have to be seen, however.
32
Rune420: 2005-04-04
Callandor: I didn't mean that the person was always the same, I meant that the peoples' eyes that they see through are at the important event. But, the quote that "no one I've spoken to has seen through the exact same eyes" thing is a hurt to that thought.
I guess I'm getting pretty off-topic with that anyway.
33
Wielder of Waterflame: 2005-04-05
Um, technically everyone has a bloodline dating back to before the breaking; just because mat has ties to manetheren doesn't mean his ancestors were spawned from nothing. They have to be related to survivors of the breaking and therefore to those before the breaking. It would work for anyone.
