1
Tamyrlin: 2002-11-23
Well, I have difficulty with the idea of LTT and Rand being different enough to accomdate the death of a soul but the life of the body. I am avowed one-souler who literally believes that Rand IS Lews Therin. But I am more prone to go with the idea you proposed at the end of your theory. Somehow the world will believe Rand is dead...so to them he will be dead...in order to live.
2
Ashaman Darkland: 2002-11-28
Not a counterpoint or anything but if Rand was perceived as being dead to the world then no one including his ladies would know he existed if you ask me it would be better to die than to have known "love" and then lost it.
3
Great Captain: 2003-02-16
In regards to the dead but not dead. Very much an allusion to the King Arthur legend when he is transported to the isle and is forever in stasis awaiting his return etc.
The hedgehog device that was activated by Faile implies that Rand may eventually be under the same weaves in stasis hence "dead but not dead".
4
DeathKnight: 2003-02-17
I think all of the Dragons have the same soul same pasion to fight the dark one but different personalities and appearence of course. But they have same ambitions. Maybe all the dragons can still hear the voices of the dragon that was before him. But the wheel turns and those voices fade and The current dragon can only hear the one before him.
5
DragonLegion: 2003-02-17
I'd like to point out that in WH min and rand are talking about Alivia "but she is going to kill you" Rand "you said she was going to help me die those are your words helping me die isn't the same as killing me...unless you've changed your mind about what you saw." i always took that to mean that he was going to fake his death and Alivia was going to help him. and that mabey he was already making plans to do so. well tell me what u think.
6
Amara: 2003-04-14
I agree with Phlaneri, in a way. I think Logain will fight in the last battle instead of Rand. Has anyone read the Malloreon by David Eddings, the hero, Belgarion, had to choose somebody to fight in his place against the Torak's champion. Zandramas was the 'Child of Dark' and Torak's champion at the start of the Malloreon, and had to choose Belgarion's son to fight in her place. Belgarion had to choose another of his companions to fight in his, the boy called 'Errand' (I forget his real name).
I think Rand will have to choose somebody to fight in his place, and this will be Logain, making true Min's vission about him becoming great, but for this to truely become true, Logain will need the Spirit of the Dragon(LTT) to make this happen. This exchange will leave Rand unconscious, but alive, and Logain will die with the spirit of LTT within him.
Rand is technically the head of the Black Tower but when he is unconscious another will be needed and who better than the 'new' dragon reborn?
Does this make true the visions?
7
Vaughn882: 2003-04-14
I definately think Rand will live. I posted a theory on this a while ago but it never showed up so i guess it was lost or just sucked too much. Anyway, Min says that Rand will have several children with avienha too. If Tarmon'Gadon is coming soon (id guess in a year or less) how can Rand have several children with Avienha too?(not to mention hes gotta have kids w/ min, cuz otherwise that woodnt be fair). So i think Rand will somehow in some way live afterward and have lotsa babies.
8
Mairan Sedai: 2003-04-14
TG is probably coming up in about eight months or so. The reason I say this is because I think Elayne's twins will be the reborn Heroes Shivan and Calian, the twins who herald the birth of a new Age. Of course, I could be way off target, but considering that the series is almost over, 7-8 months is probably a reasonable estimate.
9
juitzhead: 2003-04-14
I agree with you Amara and Ive posted something similar to this.
I think Logain will fight the DO at the LB. This will be his glory.
Rand will need someone to take his place as he will be rebuilding the prision for the DO (something the Creator had previously done and no small task i think). I think the prison will be remade b/c of Fel's "clear away the rubble" statement and the fact that LTT always want's to break the seals.
10
Five-String: 2003-04-14
I still think there's something in the prophecies that we're missing. As I recall, the prophecies don't actually say that the Dragon Reborn must die. They DO however refer to "his blood on the steps of Shayol Ghul" or some such.
So I think it's important to remember that there is more blood to Rand that just what's in his body. Remember Galad? Rand's half-brother? And Sulin? His sister? Something is going to happen there. Somehow one or both of those two are going to be responsible for saving Rand's life.
11
Mashiara: 2003-04-30
Dude, the Dragon's blood is so totally talking about his kids. We have to wait for the twins to be born for the Last Battle to begin. Or something. My theory, anyway.
12
Callandor: 2003-04-30
Where do you get enough time for the kids to be born unless RJ skips about 7-8 months out of the series? Elayne seems to be about 1-2 months along at BEST. I highly doubt they will be able to be born before the LB.
And how does this save Rand? Its his kids not him that are being killed then, so how is he saved? How does this fit into the Finn answer of **to live you must die**?
13
Shadowstalker: 2003-05-01
Well, I have ALWAYS thought Rand will die on TG. I stand by that. The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills, and if the Wheel wishes for Rand to die, then he will die. He cannot escape it, Ta'veren or not.
I agree with Five-String in a way, though not in the same way as some of you might. To me, though Rand must die, it seems unlikely that he can die before the DO, or even simultaneously with him/her/it. He must have to die AFTER, to ensure the DO's defeat.
So either he dies just after, murdered by either a Forsaken or Fain or the like, or he is killed quite a bit later, meaning someone else of his blood must die. I don't think 'of his blood' means through marriage, however.
I think the blood really means the Aiel. Remember "a remnant of a remnant"? To me, the two prophecies are clearly linked.
So as much as I'd like to think Rand could live on and grow to be an old, happy man with rediculous amounts of grandkids, I think he will die on TG. Sorry.
14
solomonrex: 2003-05-01
Tarmon Gaidon is not coming as soon as you may think. First: A major plot with the Seanchan, Egwene's kidnapping and the WT seems to be developing. We also have evidence that Rand will have to deal with the Black Tower before Tarmon Gaidon (during TG would be a little... inconvenient for Rand). And, we may have a thread where Rand is collared (I'm not so sure though- not successfully collared). Well, they can happen at the same time but I don't think they will all be simultaneous. Any WT battle and repercussions with the Seanchan, AS, BT and Rand would seem to need more time than a couple months.
15
Mashiara: 2003-05-01
"How does this fit into the Finn answer of **to live you must die**? "
Quite frankly, that one isn't necessarily related to his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul. Matt has died and lived, like, twice, and he doesn't have kids.
I think it will probably be a few months before TG, anyway; plenty of time for Elayne's little rugrats to be born.
16
Callandor: 2003-05-01
Rnad asked the Finn in the Tear doorway how to live past the Last Battle and they replied **to live you must die.** They are ALWAYS right, no matter what. Rand will die in the Last Battle, or after whatever you wish to think of it, and his soul will live on thats how he dies and lives.
17
araqyl: 2003-05-12
Callandor, I don't think Rand's question was about his soul's survival but about his own personal incarnation - Rand al'Thor, not the Dragon.
So there is a way for Rand to maintain his current incarnation beyond TG, and it involves his 'death'. This death will be (Rand hopes) the one in which Alivia 'helps' him die. That is why he looks at Alivia with hope, and keeps her close - despite Min's dislike of being anywhere near someone who might kill her man.
Just back to that quote in Phlaneri's initial post - I believe that the 'servants balance the guardians' reference is clearly the Aes Sedai (Servants of All) and Asha'man (Guardians) - so in some way they will either be on opposite sides in a form of conflict or complement each other perfectly on the same side of a battle.
18
Flinn Sedai: 2004-01-01
IMHO, i think that rand will die during LB, but, because of his death, people rise up and push the DO back into the bore.
as to Logain, i think that his glory will come not from winning the last battle, but from uniting the WT and the BT.
19
crispyroach: 2004-02-06
I stand with callandor... again. I have a few reasons beyond the prophecies and such. First, the REAL battle of the LB will not be entirely physical, the DO is not a PHYSICAL entity. Rands battle with him will be the re-sealing of the Bore, not balefire or swords. The books end quickly my fellows, two more to go, and following the pace of the last book, that means we have about 2-6 months tops. Also, RAND will fight the DO. no one will or can do that for him.
I am friends with Tracy Hickman, and I watch him first shake his head, then get upset, then write book after book trying to correct what other people with **cool ideas** for his series have done to it. (thus the reason for these last few books). RJ will do his best to clear his characters from this type of thing.
Lastly a quote. Immortality: The ability to live by dying. From the immortal Pearl Jam.
20
Tamyrlin: 2004-02-06
You are a friend of Tracy Hickman? Sweet. I count the Death Gate Cycle on equal footing with the Wheel of Time, as in, how much I enjoyed the story telling and such. I am a huge Hickman and Weis fan, their original Dragonlance series propelled me into finding Jordan's Wheel of Time 12 years ago.
21
Davian93: 2004-02-06
Rand has to die in the Last Battle, but if RJ is consistent with his writing style, he will somehow be brought back to life Resurrection-style. RJ hasnt let any major characters die in the past 10 books and I dont see it happening now. But like Callandor says, the Finns are never wrong, so Rand will die. At worst his soul will end up being reborn anyway in another Age.
22
Oatman: 2004-02-07
no major characters died? What about Moraine? She's a major character in my opinion, and seems to me she died.
Anyhoo correct me if Im wrong but the prophecies say that the dragons blood will be spilled on the steps of shayol ghul dont they, and rand is the dragon reborn, not the dragon. It might not lead to anything but this seems significant to me
23
Vimmzy: 2004-02-07
so what about this one then. Maybe to defy and deny the great lords power he might die, fight him where the DO is supposed to be all mighty, and win.. That is something is just thought of now but that isn't what i meant to write.
I meant to write this:
What if, Rand goes and dies there in the LB just to secure the victory, or some such thing. or maybe he sheats his sword to seal the prison with his blood or whatever.. Now that he is dead, he will be one of the heros of the horn. he has been before as LTT if you ask me. but that is another discussion. anyway he is one of the horn, and his lovely little girls fetches him from T'A'R.. what if..
24
Callandor: 2004-02-07
**no major characters died? What about Moraine? She's a major character in my opinion, and seems to me she died.**
And the overwhelming amount of evidence that supports her return means nothing?
25
Oatman: 2004-02-07
Personally i dont think Moraines comin back. I wrote a theory on it that didnt get posted, but in my opinion all the 'evidence' that Moraine is coming back could be stuff about Caroline Domadred, who by all accounts looks almost identical, and could be easily mistaken for Moraine
26
Davian93: 2004-02-08
****Anyhoo correct me if Im wrong but the prophecies say that the dragons blood will be spilled on the steps of shayol ghul dont they, and rand is the dragon reborn, not the dragon. It might not lead to anything but this seems significant to me****
Rand is the Dragon. Yes the dragon has been Reborn. Rand is the present incarnation of the Dragon just as LTT was in the AoL. So his blood fulfills the prophecy. Whether its literally his blood from his body or maybe its symbolic for his people, family, descendents, no one can say for sure yet.
27
1337ist Gary: 2005-02-13
If you think any man could live happily with 3 women your more insane than LTT
28
paendragon: 2005-12-02
I think that Rand will do anything to save the world and his three women, including giving himself to the shadow.... Didnt lanfear tell him all he would have to do is kneel once, and he could rule as he wished? And this newfound connection with Morodin might be a way in.... I dont see to many theories about this subject but I have to wonder...
29
Paddy: 2005-12-05
Well Rand could live and also die, fufilling the prophecy. A popular theory is that Alivia will balefire Rands killer.
So Rand does in fact die, being killed somehow, and the soul of LTT departs. But then Aliva balefires his killer, undoing however Rand died.
The Dragon Reborn will be dead, in the effect that LTT has moved on, and only Rand is left.
30
Khazhul: 2005-12-07
Paddy:
LTT's soul can't depart as RJ has already said that it's the same soul, just two different personalities. If LLT soul departs so does Rand's. About the most we can hope for is a personality merging I think.
31
JakOShadows: 2005-12-07
That is entirely possible, but I don't think it would have to be after he sealed the bore. And most likely it won't be planned either.
32
Topaz Ashaman: 2005-12-07
RJ has said that he has based Rands character off of the Norse God Tyr, who also loses a hand. According to Norse Legend, Tyr will battle Garm, the hound of hell, during Ragnorok (The Norse equvilent to TG) and will defeat him, but then die of his wounds. I think it would be entirely possible that RJ takes this same approach to TG and makes Rand bite the dust. As much as I'd like to see Rand returned to a state where he's not out of his mind and live a happy life, I just don't think it's in the cards. But then I guess I'll be happy if proven wrong eh?
33
lilasakuragal: 2006-08-04
I also think Rand will live because Min only says he'll die by spilling blood. She doesn't say when he'll die and everyone dies sometime, rite?
34
Callandor: 2006-08-06
Min doesn't say anything about Rand dying, except for the merging of two men one of which was Rand, and even in that case it was only that one of the two lived and the other died. Min has seen a black rock red with blood, but that's vague even if it's a good indicator of it being the Last Battle (as well as each of the Viewings Min saw in that scene are progressively further in the series and that was the last one she talked about).
But the prophecies of the Dragon do state specifically that he will die.
