ew Evidence for Sareitha
by rubbernilly: 2003-06-06 | 7.33 out of 10 (21 votes)
The Old Evidence
This is evidence that is blatantly laid out in the text, for example, in WH, Vandene has taken charge of Zarya and Kirstian - the two 'over-aged novices' (WH, p. 195). She pulls Elayne aside to tell her that Kirstian and Zarya had been thinking over events in Harlon Bridge (where Adeleas had been murdered).
Quote:
"They reasoned out that the killer must be Merilille, Sareitha or Careane. Good thinking on their part, I suppose, but they shouldn't have been thinking about it in the first place. They should have been kept at their lessons so hard they had no time to think of anything else." Despite the scowl she directed at Kirstian and Zarya, the two overaged novices beamed with delight. There had been a compliment buried in the scolding, and Vandene was sparing of compliments. (Winter's Heart, p. 195)
So three suspects are laid out for us. But just by way of reinforcement (so that we don't go gallavanting off on some Slayer-chasing theory, we get the following a couple of paragraphs later:
Quote:
It had been obvious when they found Adeleas and Ispan that their killer must be an Aes Sedai. they had been paralyzed with crimsonthorn before they were killed, and it was all but impossible that the Windfinders knew of an herb only found far from the sea. And even Vandene was sure the Kin numbered no Darkfriends among them. (Winter's Heart, p. 196)
The passage goes on to explain how Ispan had been more knowledgable about the Kin than any other AS, and had been very forthcoming about them. If there had been any darkfriends among them, Ispan would have revealed it. Therefore, we are left with AS, and specifically, 3 AS:
Sareitha, Merilille, and Careane
The New Evidence
Strangely, this came to me as I was looking for a quote for a different post, in reading through the section regarding the use of the bowl of winds. For context, Nynaeve has just demonstrated how to link with another woman, and Renaile is accosting the AS because of this method of controlling another woman who can channel:
Quote:
"That is ridiculous." Exasperation dripped from Sareitha's voice. "If you must know, it was the problem of men who can channel that drew them to it. The Breaking of the World was a living memory to some, then. I don't suppose even very many sisters remember--it hasn't been part of the required instruction since before the Trolloc Wars--but men can be brought into a circle, too, and as the circle doesn't break even if you go to sleep... Well, you can see the advantages. That was an utter failure, unfortunately. more to the point, here, I say again that it is impossible to force a woman into a circle. If you doubt, try it yourself. You will see."
Renaile nodded, accepting at last; there was very little else to do when an Aes Sedai made a simple statement of fact. Yet Elayne wondered. What was in the pages that had not survived? She noticed a slight change in Sareitha's inflection at one point. She had questions. For later, when there were fewer ears around." (Path of Daggers, p. 123)
I started reading this with that old, "What is RJ up to here?" feeling. Often we as readers get this sort of indication that we were just given a clue (Perrin will do this often, realize that something someone else said tickled something in the back of his mind). So I looked back at what Sareitha said for indications on where her tone might have changed. I see two possibilities based on the puncuation.
1) On the inset piece of information regarding the knowledge that men can channel not being required study anymore
2) Immediately before the ellipsis, when she is talking about how the link doesn't fail even if you sleep.
The first, to me, does not seem logical or meaningful. Why would her tone change here? If anything, her tone would be professorial on relaying this sort of information, and indeed, that is the way Elayne describes her voice immediately before this quote, thinking:
Quote:
The young Brown eyed Nynaeve uncertainly, then folded her hands and took on a lecturing tone, as if addressing a class. (Path of Daggers, p. 123)
So there really would be no change of tone for Elayne to comment on. That leaves her sudden train of thought derailment upon reaching the fact that links stay in place even if members sleep.
Interesting, aren't Vandene and Adeleas linked and in control of Ispan by this point? Yep. Path of Daggers, ps. 105-9 ouline the first time Adeleas and Vandene pull Ispan indoors to question her (this is the time that Elayne steels herself to do the questioning, but Vandene pulls her and Aviendha outside - telling them that more experience is required - and the ward that springs up makes Elayne think that screams from within would be hidden just as well as conversation). So, 20 pages before we know already that they are linked.
The Murder
1) We know that the target of the dual murder (Adeleas and Ispan) was Ispan, since the killer seemed to take the most time with her (PoD, 546). In order to get to Ispan, the killer needs to be able to drug the AS with her (Adeleas). However, simply poisoning her would do no good, the link would be gone, and Ispan would be freed of her shield. So, the killer needs Adeleas to stay alive long enough that she will remain part of the link and keep Ispan shielded so that the killer can do her work. Anybody come to mind who has demonstrated this knowledge?
2) For the sake of secrecy, the OP was not used, and the sister without a warder was killed. Both murders were done by physical means, even after Adeleas was drugged, but they were done by a channeler, we know. Therefore, the channeler wanted to keep secret. Channeling could have given herself away. So could have a warder. This is not a huge point of its own, but taken with the first, that the shield had to stay in place, there were not many paths left open to the murderer. My point is, there were not many paths open to anyone who would want to commit this murder and stay secret; so we have to look at people who have knowledge of the way that the murder was committed.
Other Evidence for Her as a Darkfriend
Place here all of the other information that normally gets discussed as proof that it was Sareitha, such as...
1) Her mysterious absence shortly after we find out there is a BA Aes Sedai in the palace
2) Her strange support of Mellar, captain of Elayne's bodyguard, even after Elayne has publicly called him down
3) The notion of what Lady Shiaine needed that was so special it required a BA member; what can a Black Ajah member do that a normal darkfriend cannot (besides channel)? Get close to Elayne, and be able to get other people close to Elayne... so it is very likely that the task that Shiaine had for this palace BA member was to get Mellar implanted in the Palace close to Elayne.
Conclusion
But all of the other evidence people normally bring up is just circumstantial and point to her being a darkfriend. The new evidence I brought forward above points to her actual hand involved in the murders of Adeleas and Ispan:
Sareitha, one of the three reasoned out by Kirstian and Zarya as being a possible suspect, demonstrates knowledge of the intricacies involved with getting to and killing a shielded channeler.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2003-06-11
I, if I remember correctly, indicated to Infidel that, after reading his theory, Sareitha was almost a sure bet. I like the new idea you have brought to bear. She was obviously discussing, or about to discuss, that she was aware of the link staying active in sleep. You added this well the the two sisters, and this just adds another nail into the coffin that is the killer. Is there any reason we should believe it wasn't Sareitha?
2
Weird Harold: 2003-06-11
Tamyrlin asks, "Is there any reason we should believe it wasn't Sareitha?"
Yes, there are reasons for considering someone other than Sarietha.
first, "it was all but impossible that the Windfinders knew of an herb only found far from the sea. And even Vandene was sure the Kin numbered no Darkfriends among them."
Yet we are told and shown repeatedly that there are Darkfriends in every society and the Kin know a great deal about Herbs.
Second, I've never seen any evidence that Sareitha does know about herbs or even that she doesn't share the typical Aes Sedai disdain for herbs.
Sareitha does know about a link holding while asleep, but so does anyone who participated with the BotW. Elayne may not have cought the signifigance of Sarietha's words about links holding even when asleep, but that doesn't mean one of the Kin didn't catch the hint.
I agree with Sarietha as the prime suspect if the Kin are indeed DF free, but I'm far from convinced that is the case.
3
Cambo: 2003-06-11
A nice theory but I think that too much is being made of the comment about being able to link whilst asleep.
And I quote:
TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 8 - The Sea Folk and Kin
"At least they didn't speak to anyone else," she murmured. A blessing, if small. It had been obvious when they found Adeleas and Ispan that their killer must be an Aes Sedai. They had been paralyzed with crimsonthorn before they were killed "
Rubbernilly is saying that the shield had to be maintained otherwise Ispan would have escaped. However from the above quote it is clear that both Vandene and Ispan were paralized, therefore even without a shield Ispan would have been incapable of escaping.
4
Callandor: 2003-06-11
I'm convinced. Nicely worked out.
5
rubbernilly: 2003-06-11
The only thing I can think of is why Vandene apparently did not immediately notice that her sister had been killed and removed from the link with her.
Vandene should have been the first on the scene, but she arrived after Nynaeve and Elayne are found and summoned. Why? What took her so long?
Of course, how could RJ turn down the opportunity - the very, very rare opportunity - to show an Aes Sedai having a natural emotion? If Vandene had come upone the scene first, she would have allowed herself to cry and then summoned others, and RJ wouldn't have been able to describe it.
This is just a trickle of evidence, mitigated by the rare opportunity framing it in the way he did gave RJ, next to the river of evidence that is building against Sareitha.
Unless someone else has more evidence against Sareitha...?
6
WinespringBrother: 2003-06-11
There has always been one aspect about the whole scene that bothered me - why leave the tea as evidence? Otherwise it could have been the perfect crime... it almost makes it look like a frame-up job of someone that Adeleas trusted.
7
silverwolf: 2003-06-11
Since Adeleas was closer to Ispan than Vandene was, she would have been maintaining the link; that means that, unless she tied off the shield, Adeleas would have become unfocused and let the shield slip as soon as the crimsonthorn started to kick in.
Another point against Sareitha (in a roundabout way): since Vandene and Adeleas were linked at the time of the murder and linking allows a deeper awareness of the other people in the link (especially physical and EMOTIONAL awareness; if you need examples, see the part of book eight where the Bowl of the Winds was used or book six where the bubble of evil burst in Salidar), Vandene should have realized what was going on shortly after the murder began. The link points the finger at her.
Sareitha is definitely still a suspect, but there isn't enough proof yet.
8
WinespringBrother: 2003-06-12
It's possible that Vandene didn't realize that the link disappeared. Even though the link isn't dissolved when someone is asleep, doesn't mean that when it is dissolved that it will automatically wake the other person up if they are asleep.
9
rubbernilly: 2003-06-12
Cambo, you misunderstand me.
I was saying that the purpose that Crimsonthorn was used was so that Adeleas would have been paralyzed but still maintaining the link.
Anything that killed her or knocked her unconscious would have been enough to sever the link immediately, leaving Ispan free of the shield.
And if you argue that it doesn't matter, since Ispan was incapacitated, as well. Think about these few points:
1) We don't know that Ispan drank the tea. Adeleas was the one discussed as not accepting tea from someone she didn't know. Unless I remember wrong, there's no indication that she gave some to Ispan. But, if she did, then...
2) The killer not only wanted to kill Ispan, but to make sure Ispan knew who had done it. There was no reason Ispan had to have drunk the tea, but if she were going to, the killer knew that crimsonthorn would not have killed her, nor knocked her out. Am I being clear? Try it this way... the killer brings the tea only knowing that Adeleas would drink it for sure; therefore, Adeleas would have maintained the shield as she became incapacitated; Ispan would have been conscious, but still unable to channel; additionally, if Ispan did drink it, then she would not be knocked out and unable to see who her killer was.
3) Poison, then, is out, since the killer apparently wanted Ispan to know who had killed her
4) Poison is also out because if only Adeleas drank it, or is Adeleas succumbed to it before Ispan did, there would be a time when Ispan became free of her shield.
So it seems pretty clear that crimsonthorn was used specifically because of what it did - and did not do - to channelers.
10
WinespringBrother: 2003-06-13
It's pretty clear that Ispan DID drink the tea, because she was apparently paralyzed, and found with her mouth in a rictus smile. I'm sure if she was able to move at all (and not just held by weaves of air), she would have been found trying to scream or something else. Also, there were 2 teacups found.
11
Dorindha: 2003-06-13
Yep, I like this, it makes me more and more sure it was Sareitha
12
anderwarrick: 2003-06-14
wait, k, I thought that Nynaeve said that that much, was it crimson root or something else? but yeah, that that much would kill. That means that whoever killed Ispan was sent there on orders or Ispan wouldn't have allowed herself to be killed. Or whoever killed her shielded her and maybe forced her mouth into a rictus smile? Why the person cut Adeleas's throat is because they didn't think anyone would realize that there was something in the tea.
13
Ashaman Grady: 2003-06-14
Ispan COULDN'T have had the crimsonthorn tea...if her face was found in a rictus she was able to move.
We are assuming the murderer was a member of the party: Thats the trip up. We are also assuming that the tea played a part in the murders.
In Tear, the two captured Black Ajah were murdered. At least one of them had her tongue nailed to the door. No one heard a thing, and they were well guarded. Sound familiar?
The Black Ajah doesn't tolerate either disloyalty or failure. So Ispan is marked for doom when she was captured. Slayer killed the BA in Tear...why not Adeleas and Ispan? Slayer is known for having certain gifts from the Dark One...perhaps one of those is to shield channelers at least for a short enough time to kill them. Add the ability to silence a small room, and there you go: Slayer arrives out of TAR, shields Adeleas and Ispan, kills Adeleas, and then has time to play with Ispan. He leaves the tea to spread some chaos and distrust among the party (as the DO orders), and disappears back into TAR.
14
Callandor: 2003-06-14
The point of the theory, is that Adeleas was given the crimsonthorn in her tea, so that she would be paralyzed but her link to Vandene and the shield on Ispan wouldnt go away. So then the killer could take her time with Ispan, and then just cut Adeleas throat and leave.
15
rubbernilly: 2003-06-14
OK, winespringbro, that's pretty good evidence (two teacups) that Ispan did drink it. Still, though, she wouldn't had to have for the killer's plan to work. As long as Adeleas drank the tea, that was enough. The link would be maintained, Ispan shielded, and the killer could do what she needed to do.
Anderwarrick, I don't follow your logic that because *that* much crimsonthorn was used that we can conclude that Ispan otherwise would not have let herself get killed.
In fact, I don't really get your point either. Are you arguing that there would be a situation *ever* wherein Ispan would allow herself to be killed?
16
silverwolf: 2003-06-15
Just because a link can be maintained even in sleep doesn't mean that it would be in this circumstance. Since Adeleas was closer to Ispan than Vandene was, she would have been maintaining the link and weaving the shield; that means that, unless she tied off the shield, Adeleas would have become unfocused and let the shield and saidar slip away as soon as the crimsonthorn started to kick in. When the person in control of the link releases the power, the link dissolves (see TPoD while the circle was using the Bowl of the Winds if you don't believe me). Vandene had to have noticed this; it makes her a likely candidate for the murder.
Out of curiosity, where did the idea that Vandene was asleep during this come from? I don't remember the book even hinting at that, much less saying it straight out, but it is true that if she were asleep she probably would not have woken up as a result of the link dissolving.
17
rubbernilly: 2003-06-16
Actually, there is precedent for Adeleas still being able to channel as she succumbed to the crimsonthorn:
Spirit is the one element that can be channeled while asleep. Spirit is also the only component of a shield.
It is possible, then, that Adeleas could have maintained the shield, perhaps specifically because she was linked with Vandene.
18
Jalwin Moerad: 2003-06-16
They only mentioned linking in PoD. Nowhere else does it indicate that they linked every time they handled Ispan. Also, isn't it possible that Vandene might be BA? She was the closest to her sister, and we already know that darkfriends will kill their family (FoH).
19
WinespringBrother: 2003-06-16
Vandene was probably asleep, since they discovered the bodies in the morning, and unless she was pulling an all-nighter or something, the normal thing would have been for her to have slept.
20
silverwolf: 2003-06-23
Vandene was probably not asleep. She and Adeleas had always questioned Ispan together up to this point; why would they suddenly change that? If you argue that Adeleas was not questioning Ispan, then why was she awake and drinking tea? (no, tea drinking isn't exactly a signature activity during torture, but it's not exactly something that you drink extremely sweet to help you sleep.)
Also, if Adeleas and Vandene linked in TPoD it is only logical to assume they linked whenever one of them was focusing the shield; nothing else would make sense.
21
rubbernilly: 2003-06-24
Why is the fact that they only linked in PoD a problem? The whole theory takes its evidence from PoD. The murder happened in PoD. They were shown to link in PoD. What point are you trying to make?
We saw them linked just *20* pages before the murder. There is plenty of reason to assume that they were linked when Adeleas was killed.
And to the Slayer proponent: Slayer has not shown that he can channel *or* shield anybody.
And, does it make sense to no one else that if Vandene and Adeleas were solely in charge of keeping Ispan shielded during this time, that they would have taken advantage of the sleeping-ability-while-being-in-a-circle in order to trade off shifts and get a few winks her and there? That is a plausible reason for Vandene not being there, and a good guess at what Vandene was doing while she was out of the picture.
22
Callandor: 2003-06-24
Slayer cant channel. RJ said so. He has gifts from the DO but cant channel the TP or the OP.
23
Weird Harold: 2003-06-24
Rubbernilly said, "There is plenty of reason to assume that they were linked when Adeleas was killed."
How do you account for Vandene not feeling Adeleas die if they were in fact linked?
One of the defining characteristics of linking -- one mentioned everytime a link is decribed from the POV on one who is linking -- is the sharing of physical sensations.
Another argument against them being linked is that an abrupt termination of the link (instead of simply releasing it)is slighty traumatic -- apparently a lot like having a rug yanked out from under you.
In short, IF they were linked, Vandene is the only possible suspect becuse she should have known immediately that Adeleas was dead if not that she was paralyzed.
24
Callandor: 2003-06-25
What if she did feel something happening but dismissed it?
TITLE: Path of Daggers, CHAPTER: 28 - Crimsonthorn
"A little kills pain," Nynaeve said. "This much . . . This much kills, but slowly. Even a few sips would be enough." Taking a deep breath, she added, "They might have remained conscious for hours. Not able to move, but aware. Either whoever did this didn't want to risk someone coming too soon with an antidote— not that I know one, for a brew this strong—or else they wanted one or the other to know who was killing them." Elayne gasped at the brutality, BUT VANDENE SIMPLY NODDED.**
What if Vandene felt her sister being aware of the crimsonthorn and didnt think of it as anything much? Its far fetched but she couldve just pieced it together when Nynaeve was explaining it and didnt tell anyone becasue she wanted to find them.
25
rubbernilly: 2003-06-25
Weird Harold -
She *did* know about Adeleas.
Lan sent that girl to get Nynaeve and Elayne, and not to speak a word to anyone else. And we know from what she says that that's exactly what she did.
And yet, in the middle of their investigation, here comes Vandene. Nobody told her anything, and yet she is there as soon as Elayne and Nynaeve are.
*--I'd argue she did feel the link dissolve.
*--She would not have felt her sister's death if the link dissolved first
*--Would she have felt pain through the link? I don't think so, Crimsonthorn was a painkiller, so Adeleas would have only been feeling emotion along the link, not physical sensations. Fear would have come through, but I don't know that that would have registered with Vandene (after all, her sister was sequestered with a known BA); fear certainly would not have been enough to wake Vandene, had she been sleeping, IMO.
So there is no reason in what you said to suspect Vandene.
26
Weird Harold: 2003-06-25
Rubbernill said, "And yet, in the middle of their investigation, here comes Vandene. Nobody told her anything, and yet she is there as soon as Elayne and Nynaeve are."
Why wasn't Vandene there FIRST? She should have been there to investigate within minutes of feeling a link snap. IF they were linked, Vandene's delay is suspicious.
Rubbernilly said, "She would not have felt her sister's death if the link dissolved first."
Your theory is based on the fact that Adeleas *would not be able to disolve the link* because of the crimsonthorn -- you can't have it both ways.
Rubbernilly asks, "Would she have felt pain through the link?"
When forming the link circle for the Bowl of The Winds, Elayne specifically notes that she could tell that Nyneave had developed a blister climbing the hill while thnking about what she could feel through the link.
Yes, Vandene should have felt any pain as well as any emotions -- like the fear and horror Adeleas must have felt at what was being done to Ispan
Rubbernilly asserts, "So there is no reason in what you said to suspect Vandene."
Given the detailed descriptions of what is felt in a link, and the horrific nature of what Adeleas apparently was forced to watch, Vandene could NOT possibly have been unaware *IF THEY WERE STLL LINKED*
The only non-incriminating explanation for Vandene's behavior is that they were NOT linked. a Link eleiminates virtually everyone except Vandene and names her a knowing accomplice at the least.
Since many other things make Vandene an unlikely killer or accomplice, they must NOT have been linked and your theory is therefore flawed.
27
rubbernilly: 2003-06-26
Rubbernill said, "And yet, in the middle of their investigation, here comes Vandene. Nobody told her anything, and yet she is there as soon as Elayne and Nynaeve are."
Why wasn't Vandene there FIRST? She should have been there to investigate within minutes of feeling a link snap. IF they were linked, Vandene's delay is suspicious.
Why is it suspicious? Remember, I'm asserting that Vandene could have been sleeping. But think of it this way: if Vandene were somehow involved and wanted to cover her tracks, wouldn't she have arrived first, as you say, to throw off suspicion? And yet she didn't. You didn't think that my previous post gave solid enough reasoning as to why; let's see if this one does any better.
Rubbernilly said, "She would not have felt her sister's death if the link dissolved first."
Your theory is based on the fact that Adeleas *would not be able to disolve the link* because of the crimsonthorn -- you can't have it both ways.
OK, perhaps I skipped a step, a step that you were unwilling to take on your own because you don't agree with me. Let me explain.
Crimsonthorn was used because Adeleas would have been able to continue channeling. Not because she “would not be able to disolve (sic) the link.” Adeleas could have dropped the link at any time... like after she saw that Ispan had been killed and there was no further reason to shield her. Do I think this is what happened? No. There's no reason that if Adeleas feared for her life she would release the Source of her own volition, especially if she were stronger for having her sister involved in the link. Rather, I think that when the killer finished with Ispan, she turned to Adeleas and cut her throat. As Adeleas lost blood, she passed out.
As in unconscious... as in unable to channel anymore. So it would be bye-bye link-i-do *before* Adeleas died. I suppose I can have it both ways, after all. :-)
Rubbernilly asks, "Would she have felt pain through the link?"
When forming the link circle for the Bowl of The Winds, Elayne specifically notes that she could tell that Nyneave had developed a blister climbing the hill while thnking about what she could feel through the link.
Yes, Vandene should have felt any pain as well as any emotions -- like the fear and horror Adeleas must have felt at what was being done to Ispan
True about the part dealing with Elayne sensing the blister. But that was without any effect of the crimsonthorn. A painkiller... probably to the point of being an opiate (from the description given). Adeleas was... what's that line from Johnny Depp's Jack the Ripper movie, “From Hell”?... Adeleas was riding the dragon. Feeling no pain. So, as I granted before, there was only emotion coming through the bond, and there are a dozen ways that this can be explained as not enough reason to alert Vandene.
Rubbernilly asserts, "So there is no reason in what you said to suspect Vandene."
Given the detailed descriptions of what is felt in a link,
Of which I have shown the faulty reasoning.
<
and the horrific nature of what Adeleas apparently was forced to watch,
Emotions that would mirror anything she should have normally been feeling at being sequestered with a BA member... and probably not enough to wake Vandene if Vandene were sleeping at the time, as I am hypothesizing.
<
Vandene could NOT possibly have been unaware *IF THEY WERE STLL LINKED*
As I have shown, there would have been very little for Vandene to physically sense through the link. Up to, perhaps, Adeleas' death. Vandene would have felt that. But, of course, they were not according to this theory (as I explained above in this post).
The only non-incriminating explanation for Vandene's behavior is that they were NOT linked. a Link eleiminates virtually everyone except Vandene and names her a knowing accomplice at the least.
Wrong on both counts. A link does not eliminate others, nor does a link tend to incriminate Vandene (as I have pointed out above). She came when she awoke and felt the link was gone... probably not even sure of what happened. To her, it might have been that Ispan had simply been killed, and her sister might still be alive.
Since many other things make Vandene an unlikely killer or accomplice, they must NOT have been linked and your theory is therefore flawed.
Agreed on the first count, but your logical leap from there is unfounded. I have clarified exactly how and why Vandene and Adeleas could have been linked and yet have events unfold exactly as they did. I can understand if you don't agree, but the logic and timing are there for the interpretation I am describing.
In other words, the theory is therefore not flawed. :-)
28
Cambo: 2003-06-26
Weird Harold,
I completely agree with what you are saying. It has been my contention all along that too much was being made of this "supposed" link, of which there is absolutely no proof! I just wish I could have worded it as succinctly as you have. Well done!
29
spearmaiden: 2003-07-02
Two thoughts going in different directions:
1)If Adelas could channel after taking the tea, why not channel to fight back at the attacker? Since she did not fight back, we can assume she could not channel, either because of the tea (perhaps because she couldn't guesture) or because the attacker shielded her.
Either way, since Adelas did not fight back with the power, I argue that she could not channel.
If she couldn't channel, she obviously couldn't maintain any supposed link with her sister. So even if the two had linked at some point, there is no way they were linked at the time of Adelas' death. Vandene either a) didn't notice this 'unlinking' because they never were linked in the first place, b) didn't notice because she was sleeping, or c) was the killer herself.
I guess the only point to all that was that there was no way Adelas and Vandene were linked during the ordeal because Adelas obviously couldn't channel.
2) Completely unrelated to #1 -- As Ashaman Grady pointed out above, it certainly didn't have to be anyone travelling with the Aes Sedai who was the killer. My current favorite for this possibility is Semihrage. As for the trust issue, she could have made herself look like anyone she wanted to that Adelas would have trusted. So why do I think this is a possibility?
The smile on Ispan's face. Why on earth is Ispan smiling while a stake is being driven through her chest? She must have been happy about something. And who is the only person we've really seen torturing someone with both pain and pleasure at the same time? Semihrage, when she's questioning Cabriana, the Aes Sedai. The stake does seem a little sloppy for Semihrage, but not entirely impossible. And we know that Semihrage has been torn away from her charge multiple times for questioning/torturing sessions (and is annoyed by it). The question raised by this, and the weakness in this theory, is why on earth Semihrage would bother is Ispan in the first place, and why it was so important that Ispan be aware of who was killing her.
Anyway, my gut feeling is that Vandene did it, but I just wanted to throw that out as a possibility.
30
spearmaiden: 2003-07-02
Oh gosh, ignore all that about Semihrage. It's been a while since I read that, and several people have mentionned Ispan's "smile" so I jumped on that. But after posting that, it didn't sit right with me, and so I look around and am reminded by other posts on other threads that her teeth were barred, but in pain. Not sure who came up with the idea that it was a smile, sorry that I jumped on that without checking the facts first.
I still stand by point 1, that Adelas and Vandene could not have possibly been linked during the incident.
31
rubbernilly: 2003-07-02
Just off the top of my head, the reason that Adeleas might not have fought back with the Power is because she was somehow limited as if she were sleeping. That is, perhaps she could *only* channel spirit. Since spirit is the only requirement of a Shield, she could have continued to shield Ispan while simultaneously not being able to really affect Sareitha. Sure, she might have tried to shield Sareitha, as well, but we know that not only is splitting flows into multiple weaves VERY difficult (it is a sign of strength in our main female leads), but shielding is a strength vs. strength type activity. That is, Adeleas very possibly could have tried to shield Sareitha and failed; she could have decided to not try to shield Sareitha, thinking that if she failed she might have lost the shield on Ispan, too; OR she might have tried to shield Sareitha and (wonder of wonders) succeeded...
...but, of course, spirit can't stop physical motion. Too bad for Adeleas, she was killed by having her throat slit. Thank you for playing, Adeleas, we have some nice parting gifts for you.
(And that's just one possible explanation... the first one I thought of.)
32
Jiana: 2003-11-16
Rubbernilly: I completely support your theory here. I had never really considered the question of who the murderer could be, until re-reading WH. At that point it struck me like a ton of bricks. All evidence supports Sareitha, to my thinking, and you have done an excellent job of laying out the proof... even if some said proof is conjecture, the conjecture only makes sense. I don't believe that Vandene was the killer, either, because her reaction to the murder and her subsequent behavior indicate someone who is seriously greiving. As to whether she is a DF, I will leave that question to another post, another time... but the point is, even if Vandene is a DF, that wouldn't automatically make her her sister's killer. Some may argue that if Vandene is a DF, why doesn't Lady Shiane or Sareitha know about her? Well... no one is omnipotent. Anyway, well done rubbernilly. :)
33
wolfbrother369: 2003-11-17
Is it known that the control of the link isn't automatically passed tp the on who isn't passed out?
34
Philosopher: 2004-01-21
"A little kills pain," Nynaeve said. "This much . . . This much kills, but slowly. Even a few sips would be enough." Taking a deep breath, she added, "They might have remained conscious for hours. Not able to move, but aware. Either whoever did this didn't want to risk someone coming too soon with an antidote— not that I know one, for a brew this strong—or else they wanted one or the other to know who was killing them."
This from the quote above - According to Nynaeve, who I am guessing would know about herbs ;) Adeleas was NOT asleep at the time, so she would have been able to weave more than Spirit. Since, as spearmaiden pointed out, she would have defended herself from a physical attack using the power, then it must be the case that she could not channel. It is entirely possible that she was shielded, since that weave, if noticed from outside, would have been thought to be on Ispan, but in any case Adeleas wasn't channeling to save her life, thus was not channeling at all despite being awake. So, no link, even before death. Ispan might have been free herself (can't recall as haven't read this bit in a while); if she thought the killer was there to rescue her, she wouldn't have fought back while Adeleas's throat was cut, then been very suprised when the killer shielded and killed her.
35
dragonsceptor: 2004-01-21
I really don't have any new perspectives to add other than I have always felt Sarietha was the murderer (even though I had no proof). Seeing this converstation, I am convinced it is Sarietha. This evidence in conjunction with her odd behavior is just too much IMO.
36
rubbernilly: 2004-01-21
Wolfbrother wrote:
"Is it known that the control of the link isn't automatically passed tp the on who isn't passed out?"
To that I say that we have on several occassions been told that a member of the link/circle who is *not* in control of that circle cannot leave the circle of his/her own free will. They have to bee released by the one in control. More, when we see Nynaeve demonstrating the linking to the group that was gathered for the Bowl, we see that there is an active role played by the one who *takes* control of the circle. It cannot be forcibly given (and what an odd concept that is).
Regarding the poster above (sorry, forgot who that was)...
If a weave is not seen, you cannot tell what the weave is for. This is verified in NS, but also when the AS visiting Rand are channeling day and night in the house in preparation for kidnapping him. From the outside, a channeler can only tell that channeling is going on, not what they are doing with their weaves.
As for the disposition of Adeleas and her capability of channeling... saying that she could or could not channel is all supposition. *Nothing* about that is sure. However, the suppostition that she could channel at least spirit - akin to what a channeler can do in their sleep - not only matches events as they unfold, but is supported by the mechanics of what we know of channeling.
"A little kills pain," Nynaeve said. "This much . . . This much kills, but slowly. Even a few sips would be enough." Taking a deep breath, she added, "They might have remained conscious for hours. Not able to move, but aware. Either whoever did this didn't want to risk someone coming too soon with an antidote— not that I know one, for a brew this strong—or else they wanted one or the other to know who was killing them."
This from the quote above - According to Nynaeve, who I am guessing would know about herbs ;) Adeleas was NOT asleep at the time, so she would have been able to weave more than Spirit. Since, as spearmaiden pointed out, she would have defended herself from a physical attack using the power, then it must be the case that she could not channel. It is entirely possible that she was shielded, since that weave, if noticed from outside, would have been thought to be on Ispan, but in any case Adeleas wasn't channeling to save her life, thus was not channeling at all despite being awake. So, no link, even before death. Ispan might have been free herself (can't recall as haven't read this bit in a while); if she thought the killer was there to rescue her, she wouldn't have fought back while Adeleas's throat was cut, then been very suprised when the killer shielded and killed her.
