ow the Shadowspawn were made.
by Dedicated: 2003-02-06 | Not yet rated
Less of a theory, just more of a discussion topic. Anytime Aginor mentions the times when he made the Shadowspawn, he says they blended human and animal "stock". My question is this. What exactly is human and animal "stock"? Is Aginor referring to souls, actual physical bodies, or both? I personally lean toward souls and physical bodies both. Has it ever been said that trollocs and fades have souls? That would explain the statement many characters have made that the DO "rules death". Maybe the souls he receives go to making trollocs and fades (and the occasional recycled Forsaken). I'm not 100 percent sure on this though Feedback would be appreciated.
A side note to this, what exactly do you all think happens when a Fade Blade is made. When Demandred gates to SG in the begining of LoC, he sees one being made. The SG "blacksmith" creature takes the woman inside the smithy after it dips the blade in the black water. Then we hear the woman scream, but it fades "as if the screamer was yanked into unimaginably far distances". This almost sounds like their soul is taken to complete the blade, but this is just idle speculation. I have no real proof that this is what happens, just this one event, yet it would be intriguing. It might also explain the blue sheet lightning when power-wrought steel meets Fade Blade.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2003-02-07
I don't want this place to become a simple message board for idle thoughts...but this topic is important enough, and you did suggest some hypothesis, so I will allow it to be here (please take this types of discussions to the message board.)
To your idea, I got the impression concerning the blade making that these people were sacrificing their souls...whether or not the DO gets to keep these souls forever is probably an unknown. I would think that Trollocs have souls and myrrdraal. Are these souls now bound to the DO?
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Dragons Shadow: 2003-02-07
Trollocs definately have souls. Machin Shin is babbling about "tiny souls, acrid souls" in one of the books. I think that it is safe to say that fades also have souls since they come from trolloc stock.
OTOH, perhaps it is the lack of a soul that is the difference that causes a fade to come from trollocs.
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Callandor: 2003-02-07
Trollocs have souls because RJ said that they do in an interview. Fades almost certainly have souls as well. Trollocs breed with other Trollocs to create, duh, more Trollocs, but also Fades.
In the BWB, pages 73-74, it says:
"Trollocs do not always breed true; instead they sometimes produce throwbacks to either the animal or hte human side of their genetics. The throwbacks to the animal half die, but the throwbacks to the human side usually survive, though corrupted by the evil of their original makers, and are called Myrddraal."
So Fades and Trollocs amost certainly have souls.
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Dedicated: 2003-02-07
So trollocs and fades have souls. Now wouldn't this at least give us the indication that the DO is actually the "Lord of Death" to a degree. I was thinking this over today. Maybe darkfriends oaths bind their souls to the DO (kind of like with the Forsaken, but different for non-channelling darkfriends). Maybe the DO uses these souls for Shadowspawn when darkfriends die. Take gray men for instance. They voluntarily give up their souls for the assasin job. The DO would probably use their soul to make more Shadowspawn.
Oh yeah, I'm still interested in anyone's thoughts the making of a fadeblade. I personally think it's the poor subjects soul that is taken, but if anyone has any other theories, throw them out. Later y'all.
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Tamyrlin: 2003-02-08
No. If he were the Lord of the Grave he wouldn't always need physical volunteers for the souls they possess, he would just be able to use any soul for that purpose. Instead, he is forced to recruit, suggesting the opposite. We know that you can be bound to the DO, and then he has transmigration powers over that soul, but surely he is Not the Lord of the Grave.
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Graendalboytoy: 2003-02-09
As to whether Trollocs have souls...How could you say that Narg didn't have a soul....?
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Dedicated: 2003-02-09
Heh heh heh, Narg. Good point. What were Narg's lines?
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jason wolfbrother: 2003-02-09
"Others go away. Narg stay. Narg smart." "Narg know some come back sometime. Narg wait. You no need sword. Put sword down." "Narg no hurt." "You put sword down" "Vlja daeg roghda!" "Put sword down. Narg no hurt. Myrddraal want talk you." "Others come back. You talk Myrddraal." "You put sword down" TEotW pg 75-76 paperback. Pretty self-evident that Narg and Trollocs in general have souls. Hehehe
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Orko: 2003-02-28
Has anyone read anything about female Trollocs? They keep them all in Shayol Ghul? Something like the 13th warrior? Are any of them born? Or are they all "hatched" or "grown". Which would kind of bring up the old discussion, does something not born, have a soul? Do they asexually reproduce like mushrooms or gremlins? I have wondered about that from time to time. Any thoughts?
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silverwolf: 2003-03-02
Has anyone wondered about possible connections between the fade-trolloc link and the link between the DO and the forsaken? I think that the DO created the myrdraal, causing the special abilities; this would explain why the DO would choose to appear as a myrdraal rather than as a human, trolloc, gholam, drahgkar, etc. The myrdraal's ability to link with the trollocs would therefore stem from the DO's ability to link w/ humans. This indicates that trollocs have at least a minimal soul or some sort of residue left from the human stock that was used to create them.
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Elder Haman: 2003-03-03
Somewhere- I believe in the BWB- it's stated that female Trollocs exist but never leave the Clans homeland. They are kept subjigated as breeding stock and kept constantly pregnaught.
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Dedicated: 2003-03-03
Fades are a "throwback" to the human side of the genetics involved in making Shadowspawn. Remember, shadowspawn are made by blending human and animal "stock" (I still have yet to puzzle out the meaning of "stock"). When trollocs are made there are sometimes "mistakes". These mistakes are genetic throwbacks to either the human or animal side. The throwbacks to the animal side die, but the throwbacks to the human side become Fades. So, in esscense, Myddraal were an accident. Aginor (the Forsaken who created most of the shadowspawn) even remarks on this when he is reborn as Dashiva/Osan'gar and is talking to Shaidar Haran. I don't have exact quote, but he states that he has always been afraid and untrusting of Myrddraal. He even calls them a "mistake" in his Shadowspawn breeding process. Personally, I think Jordan made SH (the DO's avatar, see my SH theory for more info) because of the unusual powers all Fades possess, and a Myrddraal's sinouous and evil form best represents an Avatar of the DO.
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Callandor: 2003-03-03
The DO didnt create the Mryddraal, otherwise there would be a strict limited number of them in the world, and the way that they have died in the past from our heroes shows that they take a long time to die but still die just a little harder then trollocs.
The Myrddraal are kick-backs to the Trolloc human qualites. The BWB states this very well:
**Trollocs do not always breed true; instead the sometimes produce throwbacks to either the animal or the human side of their genetics. The throwbacks to the animal half die, but the throwbacks to the human side usually survive, though corrupted by their original makers, and are called Myrddraal.** (page 73-74)
**Sight without eyes is not their only inhuman ability- they can also vanish wherever there are shadows, and travel far distences by stepping into an area of shadow, only to suddenly appear elsewhere, in a shadow far away. EVEN AGINOR, who MADE the Trollocs and thus, indirectly, the MYRDDRAAL, was not able to discover how theey could use shadows to transport themselves.** (page 75)
**It was the Myrddraals ability to cause fear that helped solve the Trolloc problem. Even Trollocs were (and are) terrified of Myrddraal, and the Halfmen were quite capable of taking and following orderes. So it was the Trollocs were salvaged as soldiers, with the Myrddraal as their commanders. The Halfmen drove them into battle and controlled them there with fear.**(page 75)
The DO didnt create Myrddraal, Aginor (now Aran gor/Halima) created them.
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Elder Haman: 2003-03-04
Umm, a small point, but Aginor was Dashiva not Halima.
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Callandor: 2003-03-04
Did I really say Arignor was Halima? Wow... major slip. Sorry for any confusion. Arignor is Osan gar who was Dashiva... now dead again :-P.
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silverwolf: 2003-03-08
I think both of you misunderstood me. I wasn't suggesting that the DO created each individual myrdraal. I was asking if he could have made it more likely that the human throwbacks survived and if he could be responsible for their strange powers. He can manipulate reality around Shayol Ghul, so he could have caused some sort of mutation or genetic disorder that allowed trollocs to give birth to live human throwbacks.
This is way offsubject, but has anyone tried to imagine what a baby myrdraal looks like? How quickly do they learn to speak, use the sword, etc.? How long does it take for one to reach adulthood? Not that it really matters...
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Anubis: 2003-03-09
i have wondered. sounds interesting. also wondered about the possibility of a myrdraal not being evil.
i think the ones that lean more toward animal die because they are stupid and not really that strong. recall that trollocs are pretty viscious and strike at any weakness.
i imagine that baby trollocs myrdraal and others are raised somewhere in the north by female trollocs then are let loose at a certain age to fight on their own.
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kathleen: 2003-03-27
I think, seeing as Aginor was a whizz scientist, and genetic recession (channeling being a double recessive) being understood at the time, that he may have been into cloning in a big way, so 'stock' is simply DNA, and the creatures are genetic constructs.
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Shadowkiller: 2003-03-27
Trollocs are made from thr souls and bodys of darkfriends that have died. After the DO promised them everlasting life they feel cheated that they have been made into trollocs so they are violent.
As for the fade blades in the middle ages sometimes they used people's blood to quench the metal to make the blade. Maybe fade blades are just quenched with blood but do not take the soul.
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Vander: 2003-10-06
aginor has some really bad luck...hes the only one of the forsaken to have died twice so far...not as bad as being balefired i guess, but still...
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jaellon: 2003-10-07
>> "What exactly is human and animal "stock?"
www.dictionary.com provides these meanings for "stock" that seem relevant:
1. A supply accumulated for future use; a store.
3. All the animals kept or raised on a farm; livestock.
8. The raw material out of which something is made.
As far as baby Fades, how does a parent Fade baby-proof the house? No cupboard is safe. How do you keep it in its crib at night (or day, whichever)? How do you keep it from wandering off to, say, Illian, via shadows? :)
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Aelfinn: 2004-01-06
***Fades are a "throwback" to the human side of the genetics involved in making Shadowspawn. Remember, shadowspawn are made by blending human and animal "stock" (I still have yet to puzzle out the meaning of "stock"). When trollocs are made there are sometimes "mistakes". These mistakes are genetic throwbacks to either the human or animal side. The throwbacks to the animal side die, but the throwbacks to the human side become Fades. So, in esscense, Myrddraal were an accident. Aginor (the Forsaken who created most of the shadowspawn) even remarks on this when he is reborn as Dashiva/Osan'gar and is talking to Shaidar Haran. I don't have exact quote, but he states that he has always been afraid and untrusting of Myrddraal. He even calls them a "mistake" in his Shadowspawn breeding process. ***
Loc Prologue, pg 71 softcover:
* Surely the creature had nothing to do with whatever had been done to him [Osan'gar]. Myrddraal had powers of a sort, but not that. Yet it knew. He had never liked Halfmen. He had helped make the Trollocs, blending human and animal stock -- he was proud of that, of the skill involved, the difficulty -- but these occasional throwback offspring made him uneasy at the best of times.*
And by "stock", Aginor was NEVER beyond 'doing things' to people for his experiments. It's best to assume the worst where he's concerned.
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Anubis: 2004-01-07
to make stock you boil a human or an animal untill the flavor of the human or animal infuses the water. then you use it to make soup. tasty tasty soup. agnor was just a chef, he experimented and "cooked" things. he wasnt limited by morality tho.
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free will: 2004-01-07
jaellon-
Every Myrrdraal is *perfectly* identical, so once you have one structure that successfully keeps a Myrrdraal alive to adulthood, it can be used over and over again. And I suspect that a well-lit room with ana dult Myrrdraal on gaurd would be sufficient.
