he Dragon's Altered Destiny
by WinespringBrother: 2003-02-11 | Not yet rated
I believe that the Dragon's destiny was greatly altered at the end of the second age, due to the taint which was directly caused by a force outside the pattern, and which causing him to go mad and kill himself, making him "sidestep" his fate.
The sidestepping of fate obviously didn't result in a Dragon not being Reborn, but it did alter the circumstances significantly. For example, from Artur Hawkwing's speech in Falme, we can determine that LTT was a hero of the horn, who fought at Hawkwing's and Birgitte's and etc.. sides many times. As well as the fact that LTT is spun out repeatedly by the Wheel as are the rest of the HOTH.
Hawkwing addresses Rand/LTT as if he had amnesia about his past lives (and wasn't too surprised about it):
Justice shone like a mirror in Artur Hawkwing's gauntleted fist. "I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more. The Wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the Pattern. I know you, if you do not know yourself. (TGH, ch 47)
Birgitte, while in Tel'aran'rhiod, recalls all her past lives, but after being reborn, starts losing her memories of past lives, and during her normal rebirths, was not aware of her hero status:
"I am Birgitte," the woman said, leaning on her bow. "At least, that is the name you would know. And the lesson might have been yours, here as surely as in the Three-fold Land. I remember the lives I have lived as if they were books well- read, the longer gone dimmer than the nearer, but I remember well when I fought at Lews Therin's side. (TSR, ch 52)
The memories of her past lives were fading-she said she could remember nothing at all clearly before the founding of the White Tower, now, though fragments still floated up-but one thing she claimed to recall absolutely. (WH, ch 7)
"Always when the Wheel spun me out, I was born, lived and died without ever knowing I was bound to the Wheel. I only knew that in between, in Tel 'aran'rhiod. (LOC, ch 40)
Presumably, this is the pattern for all heroes, including Lews Therin Telamon, to be ignorant of their role in the greater scheme of things when spun out, and to be aware in between lives. So why is Rand different – why does he have access to Lews Therin Telamon's memories? He started out with none of this, but as he channeled saidin, the connection between Lews Therin Telamon and Rand got stronger.
It had come on him slowly, but the more Rand learned of the One Power, the stronger he became with saidin, the stronger Lews Therin's voice became, and the harder Rand had to fight to keep a dead man's thoughts from taking him over. That was one reason why he liked sword practice; the absence of thought was a barrier to keep him himself. (LOC, ch 1)
So why wasn't Rand born with Lews Therin Telamon's memories and then lose them, and why did he start hearing Lews Therin Telamon's voice after he began channeling? Since Lews Therin Telamon's soul was reborn already, his knowledge should be concealed from him. Unless, part of Lews Therin Telamon's essence was trapped in Tel'aran'rhiod, where the heroes are able to keep their memories of past lives. It's also possible that part of his essence was trapped in some limbo, where he is haunted by the dead, as he has commented about on numerous occasions.
Where are all the dead? Lews Therin whispered. Why will they not be silent? Rand chuckled grimly. Surely that had to be a joke. (LOC, ch 16)
I am not dead! the voice howled. I deserve death, but I am alive! Alive! Alive! You are dead! Rand shouted back in his head. You are dead, Lews Therin! (LOC, ch 46)
You must kill him before he kills you, Lews Therin giggled. They will, you know. Dead men can't betray anyone. The voice in Rand's head turned wondering. But sometimes they don't die. Am I Dead? Are you? (POD, ch 21)
And it seems that Lews Therin Telamon was not alone, drifting in this limbo, off course – in COT, there are several mentions of ghost sightings, which could be somehow related to Lews Therin Telamon's ramblings about the dead not being silent.
This would be a vast departure from past turnings of the wheel and rebirths of the Dragon.
With the Dragon's life path being askew, I think this opened the door for Ishamael to dominate the next 3000 years of human affairs. With all the influence he was able to gain – driving Lews Therin Telamon over the brink, the oaths in the White Tower, the leashing of damanes, the sending of Paendrag's armies across the ocean – I think this indicates that Ishamael was a ta'veren as well, and now there was no Dragon to counter his effects. Ishamael's control rapidly went downhill upon Rand's intervention, culminating in his death in The Dragon Reborn.
Now that the taint (which may have been part of the Dark One's plan to alter the Dragon's destiny) has been cleansed, Rand and Lews Therin Telamon have come close to merging into one person. Rand, for example, uses Lews Therin Telamon's vocabulary (web, spin) when thinking about channeling.
Suddenly it struck him that he had thought of what he had done as spinning a web. That was how Lews Therin would put it. That sort of thing happened too often, the other man's turns of phrase drifting into his head, the other man's memories mingling with his. He was Rand al'Thor, not Lews Therin Telamon. He had woven a ward and tied off the weave, not spun a web and knotted it. But the one came to him as easily as the other. (COT, ch 24)
I think this means the Dragon's destiny is getting back on track. And the Dark One made it a priority for his Chosen to prevent the cleansing at all costs, and that it was a major blow to Shai'tan's plans.
However, there still is the matter of the dizziness and nausea that Rand deals with whenever he tries to seize saidin. What is it? I believe that it is Lews Therin Telamon suffering from the initial channeling sickness that befalls all novice channelers, and that it will go away with time.
Thoughts, questions, flames – fire away!
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Tamyrlin: 2003-02-11
Well done. I think all of our new members could learn the technical aspects of writing a theory from what you have above. That being said, :), I do disagree with a few parts. First, Birgitte only remembers her previous lives because she wasn't born, instead, she was pushed out of T'A'R into the Real World retaining those memories. During a normal rebirth, heroes, as Birgitte said, have no recollection while they are alive that they are heroes. Even Rand has no recollection. My second argument against what you are suggesting is that RJ recently mentioned that LTT is a second personality. My explanation would simply be that the souls of heroes (if not all souls) obviously retain the memories of previous lives they have lived. When reborn, the new life dominates the new physical brain, and their new experiences are all they "know." Your idea about this limbo and side stepping fate is interesting...but how would the Pattern go about putting LTT's soul into a new body...if it didn't always have control over him. ~Blows off guns, and ways for a return volley~
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WinespringBrother: 2003-02-12
Tamyrlin: "First, Birgitte only remembers her previous lives because she wasn't born, instead, she was pushed out of T'A'R into the Real World retaining those memories. " - Thats a good point. So using the example of Rand's memories of LTT's life (which he shouldn't have in a normal rebirth), we can induce that LTT was not born normally into Rand's life, but was 'ripped out' from TAR or some limbo state that his essence was residing in. I think that Rand could be called "The Dragon Partially Reborn" at first, and later events - saiding channeling by Rand, and the taint cleansing - drew forth LTT's essence back more fully into the soul of the reborn Dragon.
Let's not forget the incident in TAR when Rand was battling Rahvin:
No! It was not his thought. An image began to coalesce. A tall, dark-eyed man with a worry-creased face and more white in his hair than brown. I am Lews Ther- I am Rand al'Thor, Rand broke in. He did not know what was happening, but the faint Dragon was beginning to fade from the misty arm held in front of his face. The arm began to look darker, the fingers on his hand longer. I am me. That echoed in the Void. I am Rand al'Thor. (FOH, ch 55)
It seems LTT's presence is much stronger in TAR than the real world, at least at this time, and would make sense if part of his essence were residing there.
Tamyrlin: "My second argument against what you are suggesting is that RJ recently mentioned that LTT is a second personality."
I see 'personality' as being interchangeable with my use of 'essence', and that RJ could have explained it his way without giving away too much.
Tamyrlin: "Your idea about this limbo and side stepping fate is interesting...but how would the Pattern go about putting LTT's soul into a new body...if it didn't always have control over him. "
I believe that LTT's soul was 'damaged' from the manner and untimelyness of his death, and that to use WOT terms, his thread was frayed -but not totally disrupted. So he was reborn, according to prophecy and the will of the wheel, but part of his essence was stuck in TAR/limbo, in an insane state naturally due to the events he had lived through. It may even be the case that two more ta'veren were needed to be spun out to help get the Dragon back on the right track. But as the Dragon grows more powerful, and undoes the Dark One's work - aka the taint - the Dragon's thread becomes less frayed and more solid. We see Rand's and LTT's personalities becoming more of a unit as seen in the quote in the first post.
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Tamyrlin: 2003-02-12
Quotes from the book in a reply, very nice.
The T'A'R incidents with LTT do bring up some interesting possibilities, one of which you have mentioned. But, we now know that Rand is one soul. So lets take a look at that T'A'R incident. The soul in Rand has lived many lives...or this turning it may have only lived two (we don't know for sure do we?). Either way, it is one soul. The way that Birgitte's soul accepts itself, the form it retains is that of a hero, an archer of legend...so in T'A'R, her soul makes itself be seen as the hero that Nynaeve and Elayne see. Similar to Birgitte, the soul inside Rand, Rand himself is fighting memories of himself as a Hero when he is in T'A'R. But it is Rand who is changing himself. He is fighting the urge of previous memories of being LTT, the Hero, the Dragon, to change his look, to outweigh his current life. But Rand controls those urges and remains himself. One soul, one struggle, one person.
Of course the question becomes, why can Rand access these memories of his previous life? Your explanation is very well laid out above. Isn't is also a very good possibility that Rand has come into contact with people that LTT knew and that those memories are meshing with his current set? One thing you have going for you is the "craziness" of LTT's voice, it doesn't make any sense, and your explanation does present an answer.
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SDog: 2003-02-13
Interesting theory, and Tamyrlin brought up many of the questions I would have asked.
Regarding Rand's bout with LTT in TAR, we have no reason to believe it was not Rhavin who was doing this to Rand. I've used this event in my own theories before, but always been called down because people generally believe Rhavin was responsible.
It's unfortunate that you/we couldn't develop a mechanism for "part" of LTT's "essence" to remain in TAR. It is quite a vague concept, and it needs clarification since it is a crux of this theory. How would a personality (not a soul) be split into different parts, some of which are reborn, and others of which are trapped in TAR/some unspecified limbo?
One thought is that each soul is many-threaded (think of yarn), but the soul itself is one thing. Each thread would be equivalent to a personality or incarnation of the soul. So, the Chosen One was reborn normally as Rand, but the LTT thread of that soul had frayed away from it while/before it was in TAR. Only when it became clear that Rand was indeed the Chosen One did the LTT thread return. Why is the LTT thread so dominant in Rand's mind, as opposed to the other threads/personalities of the Chosen One? Perhaps because it was frayed away and returned "late". Perhaps because of the Taint, or because of the way LTT died.
Just one thought...
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solomonrex: 2003-02-25
I think the key to LTT's haunting of Rand is not necessarily how he died (suicide), but what happened when he sealed the DO's prison. We still don't know exactly what went wrong with Saidin and the seals- and LTT clearly shows madness afterwards. Perhaps part of LTT was trapped in the DO's prison, and has only rejoined the pattern since the seals started decaying. Unfortunately, Rand is currently occupying the body that LTT belongs to. So the limbo was the DO's prison. LTT went mad because he lost part of his pattern. That thread is now trying to reassert itself in the pattern. The dizzyness and nausea are from dissonance when he grabs hold of Saidin- Rand and LTT are both holding it and they are out of sync.
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anderwarrick: 2003-06-06
SDog:
One thought is that each soul is many-threaded (think of yarn), but the soul itself is one thing. Each thread would be equivalent to a personality or incarnation of the soul. So, the Chosen One was reborn normally as Rand, but the LTT thread of that soul had frayed away from it while/before it was in TAR. Only when it became clear that Rand was indeed the Chosen One did the LTT thread return. Why is the LTT thread so dominant in Rand's mind, as opposed to the other threads/personalities of the Chosen One?
Well, maybe its that the pattern wasn't exactly sure which one was the chosen one once Rand started channeling, so that there were both sort of there. Rand was more in control because he was the one that started. now that it is becoming more clear which one is the chosen one, they are coming together into one.
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Shadow Bane: 2003-06-15
I have only one question,
Why would the dark one and everyone else refer to Rand as Lews Therin the dragon when Rands soul was reborn into the pattern countless times before that? What makes Lews Therin so important? Finally why would the chosen all be from the age of legends if the DO is a constant- surely he would have chosen from the countless ages before the AoL, what makes THEM more important?
Maybe im just stupid but these seem like important questions that need answering.
8
Callandor: 2003-06-15
The Forsaken know Rand as LTT because they fought against him in the AoL.
The reason the DO has Forsaken only from the AoL, is because most likely, any other people chosen from previous ages is most likely dead from other turnings of the wheel and the DO wasnt felt before the end of the AoL because the Bore wasnt present.
Lastly, I dont remember the DO ever calling Rand LTT, I think he just calls him the Dragon.
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Rand alThor15: 2003-06-16
Shadow Bane : " I have only one question,
Why would the dark one and everyone else refer to Rand as Lews Therin the dragon when Rands soul was reborn into the pattern countless times before that? What makes Lews Therin so important? Finally why would the chosen all be from the age of legends if the DO is a constant- surely he would have chosen from the countless ages before the AoL, what makes THEM more important? "
1rst question : Maybe they forgot the other names.
2nd question : He's important cuz he was a suicidal dragon, charging against the DO the way he did.
3rd question : Maybe he had different chosen during the age of legends then he saw Ishamael and all the others...thought they were more powerful or had more potential so his ols chosen, he turned them into Dreadlords.~Takes out flame thrower and squeezes the trigger while pointing toward Winespring Brother~
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heronblade: 2003-06-16
it could be possible that the presence of ltt is the patterns way of compensating for the way do's taint destroyed the male as. the dr has no one to teach him, no experiences to draw upon to help him survive and so he is provided with some.
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Vaughn882: 2003-06-16
Another thought:
Perhaps with each turning of the wheel(7 ages), the heroes take on new personas. Their souls stay the same, but they are born as someone else. For example, in the next turning of the wheel, Birgitte may not be born as Birgitte, she might become uh, Alice. Her soul is the same, but now for the next 7 ages she is born as alice and her TAR personality is now Alice. So maybe everyone refers to the Dragon as LTT because he is the soul's persona for this turning.
Just a thought
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SeventhDragon: 2003-06-17
Ok I always thought that the way Lew Therin died was extremely pecular, but not for its suicide implications. How exactly does he die? He balefires himself. Now we know this is such an unspeakable thing because both the Light and Shadow stop using it. Now what happens when you are balefired? You cease to exist for a period of time, time being equated to the amount of the OP used. Lews Therin used ALOT. What I am driving at here is maybe just MAYBE he balefired himself right back to the point that he was resealing the Bore. Maybe he was somehow caught between life and death (limbo) in Shayol Ghul rather loosely like Ishamael. This along with memories of killing all of his kin would surely make for one espicially crazy Dragon. One half dead Lews Therin who suddenly comes in contact with his 'new' reborn personality Rand al'Thor when he begins channeling. The Taint would seem to allow such a connection to possily exist and with the weaking of the seals the two would merge even more.
Major holes here, no quotes.
Rookie post, flame on.
13
oosquai: 2003-06-17
One thing about the battle in T'A'R. Rand was there in the flesh, and as such his ability to alter the reality of that place through conscious or unconscious thought would be at its peek. If random stray thoughts can change the clothes being worn while someone is barely there at all, imagine how powerful the effect would be if someone had what can only be described as a psycotic episode focused on thier identity while there in the flesh. The strength of the effect probably has more to do with how Rand was there rather than any increase in LTT's influence.
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Callandor: 2003-06-17
NO!
LTT did NOT! balefire himself. He overdosed on the OP. RJ has said this.
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scion2: 2003-06-17
I believe that some of his memories of the LTT's life may be true but the voices in his head etc. are all manifestations of the taint. When he first meets Cadsuane she tells him about the voices in his head, she obviously knows the symptoms of male channeling. It is my belief that Rand is just nuttier than a fruit cake.
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Vaughn882: 2003-06-17
First, someone pointed out on the boards that Heroes are always known by their last incarnation, so that is why the heroes call Rand LTT. Also, has anyone else been thinking, maybe the thing is that Rand's soul is simply different. Not just a HotH, and not a normal one either. It may be as simple as that.
