1
Tamyrlin: 2003-03-20
I haven't studied the quotes pertaining to Rand's mysterious illness. But we do know that RJ has commented that the taint may be gone but the problems it has caused may still remain, such as madness, and possibly this illness that Rand has. Although, it could be, as you point out, an acute awareness of the problems he has had since the cut Fain gave him (that is when it started right?)
2
Callandor: 2003-03-20
It started after the balefire streams crossed in Shadar Logoth.
I think that Rands sickness is due to that, and I think I found proof. Heres the quote for the streams crossing in ACOS, Chapter 41, A Crown of Swords, page 657:
**Without a thought, his [Rand] free hand rose, and balefire shot upward, a bar of liquid white fire slicing across the wave sinking toward them [Rand and Moridin aka Wanderer]. Dimly he was aware of another bar of pale solid fire rising from the other mans hand that was not clasping his, a bar slashing the opposite way from his. The two touched.
Head wringing like a struck gong, Rand cunvulsed, saidin and the Void shattering. Everything was duobled in his eyes, the balconies, the chunks of stone lying about the floor. There seemed to be a pair of the other man overlapping one another, each clutching his head between two hands.**
Now the important part of that is the *Head ringing like a struck gong...** Why? It goes all the way back to TFOH, in Chapter 53, choices, on page 890, when Lanfear is attacking Rand on the docks:
**It was not him directly that she struck this time. It was his LINK to saidin.
Panic rang the Void like a GONG at the first knife-sharp touch, the Power diminishing as it slid deeper between him and the Source.**
Now, I think that when the two streams crossed that Rands, and most likely Moridins, link to saidin got frayed, scared, tattered, whatever you want to call it. It got damaged.
However it could just be RJs wording in the situations. But I dont really believe that.
3
jason wolfbrother: 2003-03-21
Rand was delved by Nynaeve when he visited Elayne. Elayne and Avi also delved him. He is in peak physical condition. There is nothing wrong him. The dizziness and sickness are related to another cause. I agree they are due to the crossing of balefire streams in Shadar Logoth.
4
Anubis: 2003-03-23
The first time rand gets sick like that is in the great hunt, when he says shai tan is dead in front of nynaeve. He gets the exact same affect as what happens now when he embraces the source. I wonder, why was moridin in shadar lagoth? he had to have some reason other then just randomly showing up.
5
kathleen: 2003-03-27
I thought there were two types of illness relating to channeling, the first is with 'new' channelers, male or female, who when touching the source for the first few times feel sick a few days later, rand, nynaeve and egwene have all felt this... and the second illness relating to the taint on saidin, which is now gone. I think the 'effects' of the taint are to do with the double wound in rands side, one created with tainted saidin, one created with shadar logoth muck, that are 'warded' off from rand, but still affect him. The illness Rand is experiencing has to come from those two evils still interacting in him, which are repelling and attracting each other, and will continue to do so while contained inside rands body. The only release for that, i think, is his blood on the rocks of shayol ghul, which will flush out the rot.....and remove the taint and its effects for good. but i may be wrong....
6
kathleen: 2003-03-27
oh and i meant to say that that's why rand still gets ill when channeling, and everyone else is fine - he has a bit of the taint still inside. Maybe aswell, the two wounds in his side havent cancelled each other out because they were healed at different time, and the healing stops them interacting as they should. Maybe its the undoing of the healing that allows for the final healing if you see what i mean - and also makes him bleed a lot......just rambling now....
7
Callandor: 2003-03-27
Male channelers have a sickness when first coming into contact with saidin due to the taint. This is why Rand was got so sick in the first book the few times he channeled. Women dont have this problem.
8
kathleen: 2003-03-28
So why did Nynaeve and Egwene suffer the same symptoms when they first touched the source, as Rand did? Give me the weekend and i will give you the book references.
9
Anubis: 2003-03-29
The sickness that you are refering to, is the sickness that those who have the spark but do not channel get. somehow, being able to touch the source, and not knowing how makes you die. i dont recall if egwene got sick... i know nynaeve did and i have a vauge recolection of nynaeve mentioning egwene being sick... but i would not bet on it. egwene was at a proper age when she learned.
10
Weird Harold: 2003-04-06
A relevant bit of Prohecy?
The source I C&P this from doesn't give a specific reference to verify it against, but I do remember this prohecy's essential point:
"There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land. Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield. He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow. Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love."
This doesn't explain the mechanics of the connection, but it does clearly link Rand's injuries and ilness with the state of the land, which is is in pretty sad shape at the moment.
11
Callandor: 2003-04-07
Its a allusion to the Fisher King legends. The king in the story was all powerful and rules and was one with the land, or something clsoe to that. He got blinded and cast out and nothing could grow in the land till a hero gave him a potion (I hope Im not messing this up its been a while since Ive heard the story). The Kings blindness was healed and then he returned to power and the land was restored.
More info: check the WOT FAQ for mythical references and you can see a lot of the points to the story.
12
Anubis: 2003-04-07
I thought that refered more to rands needing to learn laughter and tears. and rand does know the song. he has memories of treesingers. hmm as do all aiel clan chiefs. thought i cans understand why they did not talk about it before. how ironic if the aiel were the ones to find the song instead of the tinkers. it would force the groups to atleast acknowledge eachother and maybe mend relations.
13
Weird Harold: 2003-04-08
Callandor,
I'm aware of the Fisher King parallel and that this Prophecy is one of the bases for making that parallel.
Why it's possibly releveant to Rand's sickness, is that it *is* a prophetic reference, and not a simple narrative reference. IIRC, it's one of the "header prophecies" from one of the books and not something definitely known by the characters -- i.e. it's an explanation/hint for the readers rather than a clue for the characters.
I believe it is THE explanation for Rand's sickness and something the characters have yet to discover so the problem can be corrected. In other words, Rand's sickness is a literal connection with the health of the land and it is healing the land that heals Rand and his wounds.
14
juitzhead: 2003-06-29
Im not a believer of the 'balefire crossing' theory. There are references thorough previous and later books indicating that Rand gets sick without holding saidin. I think its more of Flinn's sealing away of the wounds. The Fain & Ishy wounds are fighting each other and its wearing down on Rand.
The only way i can see why he would get sick when embracing the source is that the Ishy wound gets a 'boost' from the taint when he embraces, making him more sick.
WH, so you think that Rand and the land is a two way connection? The DO definetly has an effect on the condition of the land as seen with the extended summer.
15
Anubis: 2003-06-29
i blame ishmael. remarcably convieniant that he just "happens" to show up the one time rand is alone.
16
Rhodric: 2003-06-30
juitzhead sez:
"The only way i can see why he would get sick when embracing the source is that the Ishy wound gets a 'boost' from the taint when he embraces, making him more sick."
then how do you expain Rand experiencing the sickness when he seizes and releases Saidin in tCoT? the taint has been cleansed, so it shoud have no further effect.
this issue is very, um, iffy, but i think that i have to go with crossing balefire as the cause. it is the first time Rand experienced the sickness. If it were and effect of Flinn's (and others) incomplete healing, i would have thought it would have manifested itself in Rand's first grasping of Saidin immediately after rand's awakening since the dagger healing. that is when he first wove gateways to/in illian to kill Sammael. didn't show up until later. therefore must be something else, eg. crossed balefire.
i don't think i've seen anyone ask this:
since (if) the sickness is caused by crossed balefire beams, then is Moridin experiencing a similar illness?
17
Weird Harold: 2003-06-30
Juizthead asked, "WH, so you think that Rand and the land is a two way connection? The DO definetly has an effect on the condition of the land as seen with the extended summer."
I'm not sure that it's an equally ballanced two way connection, but yes, it goes both ways. Rand's injuries and madness are reflected in events in the land, and the conditions in the land keep Rand's wounds from being healed. It's kind of a "chicken and egg" relationship though as to which is the cause and which is the effect.
One possible parallel with the DO's touch on the weather is that once the heat wave was broken, and Winter's Heart set in, Rand gets "colder and harder" emotionally.
18
Shadow Bane: 2003-06-30
Just wanted to say the wounds in Rand's side contain NO TAINT whatsoever. One is a wound from Belal's Thrakendar staff and the other is from Fain/Mordeth's dagger. There is no taint in there.
19
Weird Harold: 2003-06-30
Shadow Bane says, "One is a wound from Belal's Thrakendar staff and the other is from Fain/Mordeth's dagger."
Rand's wound came from Ba'alzamon's staff which was a construct of the True Power, NOT a physical staff made in Thakan'dar. As far as is known, the Forgers only make the Myrdraal's swords at thakan'dar.
20
Tyr: 2003-06-30
If the staff was of TP, then the wound in Rand's side has, still, no Taint in it, unless the TP is,er, tainted. That strikes that out of the possible causes list. The taint was created by the DO, not the DO himself, but the TP stems dirrectly from him. We can say this because no female Chosen go mad from channeling TP, and they don't have that connection to the DO the male Chosen have to nulify the effects of the Taint. A possibility, then, is that there is a residue of TP in rands wound,not festering and fighting with the Shadar Logoth wound. What if that wound was specifically placed there to, somehow bring Rand to heel. Ishamael was quite mad when he placed it there, thinking himself the DO, but he would rather see LTT's suffering elongated. How better to make the Lord of the Morning suffer then make him work for the DO (which ishy thought he was).Denting LTT's pride, having control over his great strength, and the pain the would causes would be a link to this control. Just a possibility.
21
Shadow Bane: 2003-06-30
Thanks for clearing that up I didn't know you could make stuff out of the TP. Are there TP angreals and SA'angreals?
22
Callandor: 2003-06-30
**We can say this because no female Chosen go mad from channeling TP, and they don't have that connection to the DO the male Chosen have to nulify the effects of the Taint.**
Only Ishamael used the TP extensively, so we have no idication of women being immune from the TP, and if anything they would be effected just the same.
23
Weird Harold: 2003-06-30
Tyr said, "If the staff was of TP, then the wound in Rand's side has, still, no Taint in it, unless the TP is,er, tainted. That strikes that out of the possible causes list. The taint was created by the DO, not the DO himself, but the TP stems directly from him."
IMHO, the Taint was an "oil slick of TP" floating on Saidin.
The Taint was the result of "the DO's counterstroke" and the only power the DO had to strike back with was the TP. Ergo, the Taint is related to the TP, although it may be a decayed, diluted, or simply un-refined version of it. (like the difference between Crude Oil and Diesel fuel.)
If Rand can fight with a sword made of Saidin, why couldn't Ishamael fight with a staff made of the TP?
Female Forsaken don't use the True Power very often because it's addictive and causes madness -- the same reasons the male Forsaken don't use it except for Ishydin. If they femles did use it they too would develop Saa and go insane.
24
juitzhead: 2003-06-30
Rhodric said:
"then how do you expain Rand experiencing the sickness when he seizes and releases Saidin in tCoT? the taint has been cleansed, so it shoud have no further effect."
First, Rand doesnt experience the sickness when he only channels. Weird Harold pointed out two instances in WH where Rand felt effects of the sickness without holding saidin.(although one of those instances he asked where Mat was and he might have received one of those color flashes. Don't remember any of the boys staggering though).
Secondly, i noticed very similiar effects to the his sickness when he first went to SL to seal the waygates to his channeling sickness.
“From the first flow he channeled, the taint seemed to pulse inside him, a slowly building vibration. It must have been the evil in Shadar Logoth itself, a resonance of evil to evil. Even in the Void he felt dizzy from the reverberations, as though the world swung beneath his feet in time to them; they made him want to vomit up everything he had ever eaten. - Rand, in Shadar Logoth, LoC ch.21, p.460”
“Tying off the weave and loosing saidin brought only some relief. The residue of filth that always seemed to remain behind still throbbed; it almost felt as though the ground were bobbing beneath his boots. - Rand, in Shadar Logoth, LoC ch.21, p.461”
“Inside Rand, the taint on saidin beat harder; the distant fire in his side flickered like ten thousand lightnings, one on top of the last. Even the ground seemed to pound beneath his boots. - aCoS ch.41, p.842”
back in SL
“Reluctantly he let go of the Power, forced himself not to hang on like a man clutching salvation with his fingernails as life and filth drained from him together. For an instant, he saw double; the world seemed to tilt dizzily. That was a recent problem, and he worried it might be part of the sickness that killed men who channeled, but the dizziness never lasted more than moments. - Rand, tPoD ch.13, p.325”
“The dizziness faded quickly, the twinned sight a little more slowly, as it always did, these last few weeks. . . - Rand, tPoD ch.21, p.464”
“The taint on the male half had its opposite twin, too. The wound given him by Ishamael throbbed in time with the taint, while the other, from Fain's blade, beat counterpoint in time with the evil that had killed Aridhol. - Rand, WH ch.35, p.637”
“He turned toward the window, to fetch the leather scrip, and a wave of dizziness hit him. Knees turning to water, he stumbled. A shimmering face he could not make out flashed through his head. With an effort, he caught himself, forced his legs straight. And the whirling sensation vanished. Lews Therin panted hoarsely in the shadows. Could the face be his?. . .
. . . This dizziness without saidin was new. Maybe he had just turned too fast. And maybe pigs did fly. - Rand, WH prologue, p.82”
He doesn't just get dizzy when he touches saidin, so I don't see how the balefire streams come into to it. This also happens in several more instances in CoT. I still think the cause is the TP induced wound and the SL wound fighting.
Weird Harold, can you confirm where it states that the wound on Rand's side was made with a TP spear.
Tyr
If the staff was of TP, then the wound in Rand's side has, still, no Taint in it, unless the TP is,er, tainted
As you have pointed out, the taint is gone but it wont affect the wound on Rand's side b/c the wound is not tainted. IF it is indeed made from the TP, not the OP as i thought. If the wound on Rand's side is made from the TP then i will have to take a new line of thought on how they will be healed. But not for this topic thread.
25
Rhodric: 2003-06-30
apologies, juitzhead.
when i checked aCoS the other day, i completely missed those quotes in shadar logoth.
so its the two wounds, not balefire.
well that kills the rand calling the DO's attention by unwittingly reaching for the TP theory.
26
Weird Harold: 2003-07-01
juitzhead asked, "Weird Harold, can you confirm where it states that ... was made with a TP spear?"
No, 'cause it wasn't made with a "spear" it was made with a staff.
Juitzhead said, "IF it is indeed made from the TP, not the OP as i thought."
The staff was created from "A" Power by ba'elzamon/Ishamael -- a character noted for habitually channeling ONLY the TP later in the series. He might have used Saidin but I don't recall any mention of Rand feeling him create the staff or seeing the weaves that made it.
At tht point in the story, the readers didn't know as much about the TP so there isn't anything that specifically "says" it was, or was not, the TP.
27
mako0424: 2004-07-25
im under the firm beliefe that this is a part of being the dragon reborn, just as much as it is something to do with moridin crossing the balefire streams, but i dont think moridin is benefitting i think he is sck too, hence the reason he is using so much true power
28
Callandor: 2004-07-26
**but i dont think moridin is benefitting i think he is sck too, hence the reason he is using so much true power**
He's a TP addict. Heck, he used the TP in the balefire incident you suppose about. In the short time he has been back in a new body, he has used the TP enough to cause the Forsaken to nearly crap their breeches. Not to mention all the previous usage in his past incarnation as Ishamael.
29
pngtchol: 2004-07-26
I think that the two crossing balefire streams in Shadar Logoth caused a slight time distortion for Rand. I think that part of him is a bare fraction of a fraction in past, so that there are actually two of him, overlapping. *Thus the double images.* Ordinarilly, this is too miniscule to feel, but when he graps saidin, he becomes more aware of his physical after-image, *thus the strange illness*
I believe that somehow, the balefire created after-image thing is going to have to be killed, thus Min's viewing of the female channeler (I forget who) that saiys she will *help* him to die.
30
Aelfinn: 2004-07-27
Two things to say. First, pngtchol:
***I think that the two crossing balefire streams in Shadar Logoth caused a slight time distortion for Rand. I think that part of him is a bare fraction of a fraction in past, so that there are actually two of him, overlapping. *Thus the double images.* ***
That sounds like a bad Doctor Who episode. Say "the Space Museum".
Second, about the first post:
I'm in "The wounds did it, balefire helped" faction, so I can't admit that Rand's just simply sick, but I like the idea that grasping saidin makes whatever's wrong with him more noticeable.
However, there's a bit of a problem.
Isn't he normally in the F&V when he does that? There's a quote that says "somebody could cut off his hand" (which I count as a RJ-sneaky foreshadowing of the Severed Hand) "and he'd keep going, it would be someone else's pain." OWTTE. I think his sickness is definitely HIS SICKNESS, not somebody else's.
31
Callandor: 2004-07-28
**I'm in "The wounds did it, balefire helped" faction, so I can't admit that Rand's just simply sick, but I like the idea that grasping saidin makes whatever's wrong with him more noticeable.**
Rand's dizziness happens when he grasps saidin, but it also occurs when he doesn't sometimes, as seen in the Prolouge to WH.
