he Seanchan vs. The White Tower
by Janstince: 2003-03-19 | Not yet rated
Egwene's dream of the Seanchan attacking the WT. More specifically, two ravens knocking white Flames of TV off the lamp. Now, maybe it's just me, but there seem to be only two times that the number of ravens are mentioned in connection with something. Other times, it's just ravens.
There is Mat's ring, which has two ravens, and there is Mat's spear which has...you guessed it, TWO ravens. Maybe it's just coincidence, but why two? RJ could easily have had a whole army of ravens descend, or damane blowing up the tower, or giant beasts scaling the walls and flying low to drop people on rooftops or something. But no, it's TWO ravens. So here's what I propose:
The Seanchan attack is coming soon, and Mat is going to be leading it. Toss that around a bit and see if you can figger it out.
You cannot rate theories without first logging in. Please
log in.
1
Tamyrlin: 2003-03-21
So you are connecting the two ravens as a direct reference to Mat? I don't know, wouldn't it be more fitting to be Tuon, or Mat and Tuon? Although, I really don't ever see Mat going into battle on the Seanchan's side, unless he is somehow forced to do so (I just don't see it.) Rather, maybe the Seanchan fighting for Rand's side, is more likely in my opinion.
2
Weird Harold: 2003-03-21
There IS a symbolic significance to Two Ravens vs Ravens references in general, but it is NOT in relation to who will lead the attack on the WT.
Two Ravens and Raven Tattoos are symbolic references to Seachan Royal Property and/or Seanchan Royalty --Specifically Tuon, The Empress and their property.
In the context of Egwene's dream, it could indicate participation by Deathwatch Guards or Seekers in the attack. The possibility of Deathwatch Guard involvement is reinforced by BG Furyk Karede's input into the attack plans for Tar Valon, but the scene in CoT that reveals BG Kerede's connection also reveals who will command an attack on the White Tower: Banner General Yulan. (or Air Captain, I'm not positive Yulan was promoted from the last passing mention of him in WH; where he was still an Air Captain.) Read the chapter "A Doll's Story" in CoT for that information in context.
The Two Ravens attacking the Tower dream isn't Egwene's only dream about the Seancahn attacking the Tower, and they all have to be taken together to interpret them -- I know there are at least three different dreams.
I think this particular dream supports my belief that any attack on the White Tower will start at the TOP of the tower, and will be made by the Seanchan.
FWIW, I suspect that Mat is going to become Imperial Property -- Eventually Tuon's So'jiin -- and wind up a commander of the Deathwatch Guards for time.
3
solomonrex: 2003-03-26
I think Mat will almost certainly end up leading Seanchan into battle, even if not against the WT. He's going to marry Tuon, and with his skills as a general and long memories of war he is the perfect to command the mixed forces of the Seanchan. Sending him against the WT is natural since he has the fox head medallion, which will throw all the Aes Sedai off and he's been inside the WT before, too. My only trouble is trying to decide what place Gawyn is going to have in all of this. Which side will he end up on?
4
TheNetweaver: 2003-03-26
The two ravens could be Mat with or without the Seanchan. The Band of the Red Hand is still with the Rebels, and there's no reason they shouldn't still follow him. My guess, however, is that the rebels will make an alliance with the Black Tower at the same time the Seanchan ally with Rand. This would explain both Mat and the Seanchan's involvement in an attack on the WT. Possibly Logain's glory as well? This is all dependent on what happens in the Black Tower, since events at the end of CoT suggest Logain is lobbying for Rand's support against Taim. If they do indeed get support from Asha'man, the Seanchan will now have a way to Travel (supporting the attack from the top theory), and also explain Egwene's dream of the Seanchan helping her (seeing as how she's captured).
5
Shadowkiller: 2003-03-27
The Band of the Red Hand are not still with the rebels but sitting in Murandy.
The attack on WT could mean that the Seanchan will use raken and to'raken to enter the tower from the top. Thus capuring Elaida (as she has her rooms near the top of the white tower). Egwene will be the deciding factor in defeating the Seanchan. Egwene knows the attack is coming, and the people she has told do not believe her. After she has defeated/led those who defeat the Seanchan she will be made amyrlin in the white tower.
The two ravens on Mat's ring and spear are his connection to the Seanchan, it does not mean he will participate in the attack. The fact that it is two ravens means that it will be the Seanchan that attack. If it was an army of ravens it would maybe mean that it is the DO forces that attack.
6
Janstince: 2003-04-02
I'm not so sure about all that junk. For instance, we know that Rand is going to meet with the DotNM soon. We also know that Suroth really doesn't have the DotNM, but is using an impostor. We also know that Anath is Semirhage AND that they have the male a'dam. We also know that Mesaana is in the Tower, and that Mesy, Semi, and Demandred have conspired together in the past and are currently conspiring together. It also seems unlikely that they are taking orders directly from Moridin, so they are probably wondering what has happened to the other Chosen, and might be scared out of their wits about Rand.
Anyway, what all this points to for me is that the Seanchan are going to attack the WT not once, but twice. Once, the Seanchan are going to take a controlled Rand into the WT to wreak havoc and mayhem and destruction under Suroth and Anath. The second time, Mat and Perrin are going to join up (why not, they're not really that far from each other at the moment, probly only a hundred miles or so), and they are going to rescue him, with Mat leading the armies of the Seanchan at Tuon's disposal, as well as the one that Perrin is going to use the note from Suroth to commandeer(sp).
One thing that does seem to open interesting possibilities for me: as i was reading LoC for the third time, I came across Nicola's first known Foretelling. In it, she mentions those who are probably Elayne (the lion sword), Aviendha (the dedicated spear), Min (she who sees beyond), and Rand (he who is dead yet lives). She also mentions that the Servants balance the Guardians. Well, Aes Sedai means "servants of all" and Asha'man means "guardians," but as we know it now, and especially when Taim either rebels and gets put down or if he takes his faction to become dreadlords, then the only way for there to be enough Asha'man to balance the Aes Sedai (whose numbers have been increasing exponentially b/c of Egwene), then there must be a severe reduction of AS. I.E., blow up the Tower. What better way than with cannon? And the power won't be used, so they can say that they never violated the oaths. Kinda convenient, but hey, i like convenience. It means less thinking, and thinking hurts :P.
7
Weird Harold: 2003-04-03
Janstince,
The timing just doesn't fit for Rand to be a part of the Seanchan plans for the White Tower. We know the plan is nearly complete from CoT "A Doll's Story" where BG Karede is reviewing Air Captain Yulan's plan that includes a map of Tar valon.
Egwene is captured 16 days later and sees a "bat" that is probably a *Raken
Three days or so later, Rand get the invitations to meet the "DotNM."
There is just no logical way that Rand can be a part of a Seanchan plan that's probably already in motion.
Incidently, the timing also allows for Tuon to have returned and command Suroth to arrange a meeting, although I personally don't think she did. There is still time for her to return and upset Suroth's plan by replacing the impostor before the meeting is agreed to and arranged.
8
TheNetweaver: 2003-04-04
I don't quite see why the Seanchan would be attacking the White Tower already. Do we have a definite timeline for the epilogue of CoT? Rand says that they (Bashere and company)had been gone far too long, or something like that, it's not really significant to look it up. Why would the Seanchan have leapfrogged Rand's front to attack the White Tower? The Corenne dominated Arad Doman and Tarabon, but suffered when attacking Illian and the Asha'man. Wouldn't the Seanchan consider how to defeat their most formidable foe before trying to bypass them?
9
Weird Harold: 2003-04-05
TheNetweaver ,
The best source, IMHO, for a timeline is the Chronology WOT site and they estimate the epilogue as being the 740th day of the story. That entry is clearly identified as being an estimatation only, and personally, I think it's probably a very conservative estimate. There is an explanation there about how they place events on the timeline that makes me trust their conclusions enough to use them as a reference point for discussions.
The critical point that excludes Rand from consideration though is the approximately 16 day gap between the scene that reveals they're planning something for Tar Valon, and Egwene's capture. When the planning is revealed, Rand hasn't even sent Bashere on his embassy yet, let alone received a response. (I don't think they've even joined him yet.)
As for WHY attack the White Tower now: The Explosion of Elayne's gateway at the Kin's Farm. The Seanchan think it was some sort of terrible new weapon and consider neutralizing the possibility of it being used again a top priority. In Military terms, they need a Coup de Main or "decapitation strike" on the Aes Sedai.
10
Stilicho: 2004-11-12
Remember Egwene's dream of Mat shouting at her "I am coming"?? I suspect that Mat, who ALWAYS KEEPS HIS WORD, will hear of Egwene's capture, will use his connection to the Seanchan via Tuon to lead some Seanchan troops (perhaps the Deathwatch Guard which is currently searching for Tuon) to the WT to rescue Egwene (whether she needs it or not). Mat will feel obligated to try, however, because of the promises he made to Rand regarding protecting Egwene.
