1
Tamyrlin: 2003-04-23
I have seen this idea before on the boards some time ago, and you are correct. I guess we would call it teleportation, but I hadn't noticed that part where you point out that Rand seems to use it. We don't have any clue as to the "rules" that govern its use, but we have only seen two of the most powerful channelers use it, so maybe it does require more power than Traveling or Skimming. Thanks for pointing this out.
2
jason wolfbrother: 2003-04-24
Lanfear uses the same method in TGH. "Min gaped. One moment she was there, then she was gone. Min discovered she was hugging Rand's unconscious form tightly. She wished she did not feel as if she wanted him to protect her." I agree that is takes an enormous amount of power.
3
Callandor: 2003-04-24
This new type of Traveling seems to me just to be Traveling with use of the TP. When we see Moridins POV in ACOS when hes the Watcher, he reaches out the TP and **tears a hole in the pattern**. So he Treaveled with the TP to wherever he went.
Ishamael is known to be the only dedicated TP user so it would seem normal for him to use it to Travel. And the incident with Rand can be explained really simply: Ishy did it himself. If you notice Rand goes from fighting Arignor to Tarwins Gap instantaneously, like the theory says, but hes put from on danger to another. Its Ishy testing to see weather Rand is the Dragon Reborn and what he can handle unknowningly, in other words, what the Pattern has him do so he doesnt get whacked before he dies.
The new type of Traveling seems to be limited to people who are attached to the DO, in other words, only the Forsaken, and more importantly now, only Moridin.
4
Anubis: 2003-04-24
this sounds like someone stepping out of tel aran therhoid physically. Though the rand teleporting thing is a good point... i fergot about that. in the first few books what happened was just inexplicable magic, but then when we get explinations it just increases the mystery.
5
Highbreaker: 2003-04-24
Callandor: "This new type of Traveling seems to me just to be Traveling with use of the TP." & also "And the incident with Rand can be explained really simply: Ishy did it himself. If you notice Rand goes from fighting Arignor to Tarwins Gap instantaneously, like the theory says, but hes put from on danger to another."
this is NOT true, there is NO way that Rand could use the TP. You have to linked to the DO to do that, it isn't like one day some guy wakes up one day and says, "Oh hey, I think I want to channel te DO's spirit through my body to do my bidding" The DO has to give permission to do that. Have you EVER seen ANYONE other than a forsaken use the TP. Besides, the Dragon is an agent of the creator, oh yeah like that is really gonna happen. That would be like, for any christians out there, if Jesus needed some help saving souls, so he used Satan's power to cause pain to do it... pffff
seriously, there is NO way Rand had access to the TP, and since both Ishy and Rand have used this spell, it can't be a TP spell.
6
Callandor: 2003-04-24
I know that Rand cant channel the TP. I said that:
**And the incident with Rand can be explained really simply: Ishy did it himself.**
IM NOT SAYING RAND CHANNELED THE TP! Ishy channeled the TP himself and took Rand from the Eye to Tarwins Gap and then from Tarwins Gap to where Ishy was.
7
Rand-althor: 2003-04-24
I believe what Callandor meant was that Ishy put Rand into Tarwins Gap himself, it was not rand doing it, and he did it because it put Rand at greater danger, as opposed to a OP battle that he seemed to be winning neways.
8
TheNetweaver: 2003-04-24
Like Anubis said, I always thought this was telranrhiod, but if Rand has done it before, then it could be something else. Those early battles involve a lot of unknowns, so some close inspection might be needed, or maybe just a RAFO.
9
Fade: 2003-04-24
Has anyone entertained the possiblity that we are over-analyzing this? we have ample evidence of the fact that RJ likes to counter balance things (light vs. dark, saidin vs. saidar). so wouldnt putting a new type of traveling into the mix off set that balance?
to me the description of Ishy's appearance in the first book sounds a lot like he let go of a web of illusion he was holding over himself. something like a mask of mirrors for example.
the difficult part is trying to explain the jump to Tarwins Gap. for that, i think that we need to remember that in the first book, RJ was never really that explicit with HOW exactly things happened when using the power. knowing this, i think that it is entierly possible that Rand simply traveled there conventionally with a normal Traveling weave.
10
Vaughn882: 2003-04-24
Callandor, I highly doubt that Ishy made Rand "teleport", even though it is possible, because Rand was thinking about getting away at that moment, and we know that in EoTW the only times Rand channels are times when he is emotionally excited and thinks or wishes hard for something, such as giving Bela strength or calling down lightning. I beleive that in his desperation he pulled the "teleportation" technique from LTT's knowledge, or jsut thinks of it immediatly like he does many other times in his early channeling days.
11
Anubis: 2003-04-24
i dont know. it doesnt seem like ishy did it. rand shows up, the creator (some mysterious divine sounding voice) talks to him, and then rand goes and wins a great victory for the light, and defeats ishy. why would ishy take him to the gap? it makes no sense.
12
forge: 2003-04-25
it looks to me that this is simply the way RJ had people Travel in the earlier books. he would have revised it later on with the gateway method, perhaps to make it so non-channelers can travel.
13
Highbreaker: 2003-04-25
hey callandor, I am really sorry. I totally misunderstood you... man, I am really sorry. Ok I see your point then, yeah Ishy could've done that. But, why would he want to bring Rand to him? he knows that he is less powerful than Rand... unless, no nevermind. I guess he is just trying to deal with him before he gets even more powerful. But, then again, that all depends on what Rand used all that power in the Eye of the World for... If he still had control of that power, I wouldn't want to face him if I were Ishy... If anyone knows when that power ran out, I'd like to hear it.
Thanks, & sorry again.
14
Vaughn882: 2003-04-26
Fade, I don't think Ishy was jsut invisible while LTT was going mad because of the way it is written: "His mouth twisting briefly in distaste" (describing Ishy's appearance). If he was already there, then his mouth wouldnt twist in distaste, because he had already seen everything. If he was making evreything invisisble to him, then i dont know why in the world he would do that. Also, if Ishy was already there, wouldn't he have been killed by LTT's mad slaughtering?
I am also hoping that this isnt the original way Jordan was going to have traveling, because, of course, that would be a mistake in the books, which is not likely, so we are assuming it is a different kind of traveling.
15
Callandor: 2003-04-26
People ask why would Ishy want to bring Rand to Tarwins Gap and then to Ishy himself, simple reason: Sacrifice.
A new theory is that the Eye kept one of the Seals safe for 3000 years because it was in total pure saidin and that kept it strong. No saidin anymore, the Seal is weak again.
Highbreaker hit on it I think. Ishy took Rand away from Arignor after their little power struggle over the Eye and that drained some of the saidin there. Then Rand goes to Tarwins Gap. He takes out thousands of Trollocs. He sends earthquakes to take out 8xs as many Trollocs as there was humans there. That definatly took out some of the saidin, most likely a large chunk of it. Then Ishy made Rand come to him to drain the rest of the saidin.
Ishy made Rand attack him. With him tempting him with his mother, the Trollocs, Nynaeve, and Egwene. All angering Rand and making him take more of saidin and drain the Eye. What he didnt count on, at least I think so, was Rand cutting his black cord. That most likely drained the last of the saidin.
No more saidin, Seal is broken. Then rest of the Seals then follow in weakening. That sounds like one heck of a good plan to me.
16
Callandor: 2003-04-27
Ok... in the Questions for RJ part on the Crossroads of Twilight Message Board, Isabela, BLESS HER SOUL :-), found out that in the Netherlands RJ confirmed that it is the TP that is how Ishy Travels. So that most likely means he set the Traveling on Rand in TEOTW to the Gap and then to Ishy himself.
17
Vaughn882: 2003-04-27
Callandor, I think you may be right. But, to clear it up, this "technique" we've seen is NOT entering or exiting TAR in the flesh. To enter/exit TAR in the flesh you must create a gateway to/from it.
"He wove another now. A gateway, an opening at least, a hole in reality. It was not blackness on the other side.....There before him lay the same arches opening into the same courtyard and fountain, the same columed walk" (tFoH, The Threads Burn, pg953 paperback)
This is when Rand enters TAR in the flesh during his battle with Rahvin. This is clearly not the same thing we are looking at.
18
The Leveler: 2003-04-28
I think you're right, but it can't use the True Powere. That is drawn directly from the DO. And when Ishy teleported in to LTT's home, the DO had just been sealed up, and he couldn't touch the world enough to use the TP. Because Moridin though the the DO would be displeasd with his wasting the TP because it was hard to touch the world enough to use it. And Shaidar Haran might use the True Power, but I think he gets around by usind the Shadowslide of the Fade.
19
Callandor: 2003-04-28
I dont think thats really true. The black cords most likely allow the Forsaken to tap into the TP, as well as filter out the taint for the men and allow the Forsaken to be reincarnated, and I doubt those were really inhibited by the DO being imprisoned that much. The only rason is that most of the Forsaken were bound, but Ishamael wasnt totallly he was thrown out every once and a while, so I do think that he could use the TP to Travel when he was free.
20
solomonrex: 2003-04-29
Why do you need a gateway to enter TAR in the flesh if Slayer can do it? Are we suggesting that Slayer is an OP or TP user?
21
Vaughn882: 2003-04-29
Well solomonrex, I have a few ideas how Slayer enters/exits TAR in the flesh without a gateway. First off is that if traveling and entering TAR in the flesh are related, because of the gateway, perhaps there is a method of entering TAR in the flesh similar to the method that we are looking at, "teleportation". It sounds perfectly reasonable to me. And if this special method is truly traveling with the true power (like Callandor strongly beleives, and I think that it probably is) then this would just be entering TAR with the true power. Slayer sounds like the kind of guy who would use the true power, being the (seemingly) mentally unstable guy that he is. At the end of TDR i think ishy goes into TAR in the flesh without the use of a gateway, but I'm not sure, I'll check on that later.
Also, some other ideas are that maybe he's using a ter'angreal or more likely this is just another of his unknown abilities (do we even know if he can channel?).
22
Highbreaker: 2003-04-29
Hey Solomon, I think that Slayer is something special, unique... he doesn't get powers from the DO or from the True Source. I think he has his powers, and his being combined with Luc, from a deal with the **Finns. But, the TP, is a possibility. Isam was a DF. Isam is part of slayer. Those are the two possibilites. Well, that and that he could have had some powers from the DO, then had them magnified by the Finns.
23
Vaughn882: 2003-04-29
I think I may have found the answer. I think I was right before, when saying that there is a way to "teleport" to TAR in the flesh, just like the new method of traveling that we are looking at. I beleive they are deffinately connected, and am almost sure that it is simply the true power version of traveling/entering TAR in the flesh. First there are these qoutes:
"Ba'alzamon fled, man and shadow vansihing"(the Dragon Reborn, What is Written in Profecy, pg 653 paperback)
This is when Ba'alzamon is battling Rand in the stone of tear and runs away into TAR. clearly he did not create a gateway to get there, like Rand did.
"...Rand reached out, through Callandor, and twisted reality to make a door to somewhere else. He did know to where, except that it was to where Ba'alzamon had gone."(same page as before, a paragraph down)
Clearly what Rand does is different, and this leads me to further beleive that this is the TP way of gettin into TAR. That would probably mean, because they are so similar, that the new kind of traveling is in fact TP traveling. This leads me to believe, since it sounds exactly the same, that Slayer can in fact channel and does so mostly with the TP, because the only way we've seen him enter TAR is through teleportation. Now, it is still veyr possible that this is jsut a special ability he has, and cant channel, because we've never seen him do other things with the power, but this fits well.
I'll continue to develop this theory, and maybe it will become a full-fledged theory of its own.
Any thoughts on to whether I am correct?
24
Callandor: 2003-04-29
RJ has said that Slayer cant channel the OP or the TP what so ever. His abilities are *gifts* from the DO.
25
Jack o Shadows: 2003-05-04
I didn't read it all so someonE might have said this but...In the prologue to TEOTW it's not just Ishy who does it. Lews does to so it's not the mirror. He goes form his home to where he dies.
26
Callandor: 2003-05-04
Wrong. It doesnt say anything about LTT traveling like Ishy did. It just says **he Traveled**.
27
silverwolf: 2003-05-27
I think that Slayer's abilities (as far as entering TAR) stem directly from the fact that he is two people in one body. If TAR was used in combining the two (which might be a stretch, but it seems like the most likely option), then it would logically follow that he would be able to slip back and forth between the real world and TAR at will. Also, I don't know if anyone mentioned this under a different post, but I think that the "cold, inhuman smell" that Perrin describes results from Slayer entering TAR physically.
28
rubbernilly: 2003-05-27
Or from the shear number of times that Slayer has come into TAR in the flesh, he no longer has any humanity left to him.
Which, if true, would be made even worse if it is true that he exists in both places at once: Luc is in TAR or tRW, and Isam is in the other place. If he becomes Isam in tRW, then Luc goes into TAR. Because of this, he would have *always* been in TAR in some form since his combination in the high passes, years ago. How much humanity would he have after so long in TAR physically? Probably none.
29
Callandor: 2003-05-27
Slayers abilities in my mind come more from the DO then entering TAR in the flesh.
30
juitzhead: 2003-07-28
i just listened to a new audio interview from RJ where he confirmed that the Travelling that Ishy did in the EotW Prologue was indeed travelling with the TP. He also said that Traveling with Saidin is different than travelling with the TP. The shimmering effect is part of it.
LTT travelled with Saidin in the EotW and Rand travelled with Saidin also in tEotW, both of which are not the same as TP travelling. OP requires a gateway, TP rips a hole in the pattern and you shimmer when stepping through.
31
Callandor: 2003-07-28
It is never stated weather Rand traveled with the OP, or was brought there by Ishy with the TP. Thats why its a little confusing.
32
rubbernilly: 2003-07-28
Callandor -
I was not attributing Slayer's powers to the amount of time he spends in TAR (after all, one of his powers is simply to get into TAR, so that wouldn't make sense at all).
Instead, I was referring to silverwolf's statement of the cold, inhuman smell Perrin picks up on. I think it's inhuman and cold because of the time that Slayer spends in TAR (*all* of the time, according to my theory).
33
Jack o Shadows: 2003-10-23
I can't rememebr the exact workinf so I'll just descrivbe it a bit. In tEotW, right after LTT emergies from the madness and Ishy taunts him a little he travels. It dioes say "He travelled" I think, but I think I rememebr it syaing something along the lines of "Reality twisted" or something when he appears at his chosen site of death. Then Ishy follows him. 1) It MAY be that he found a way to do it with the OP or he could have, leanred to channel the taint (Whihc I think is the same thing as the TP just without sanction from the DO). But he deffinatley dind't use a gate to get to whee he got to. *shrug*
34
Mad Tinker: 2003-10-24
Jack, I think you're confusing LTT & Ishy. In tEotW it states "...and he [LTT] Traveled". Then Ishy arrives after LTT offs himself. "...the air shimmered and coalesced." Ishy had used the True Power to Travel, not LTT.
35
Jack o Shadows: 2003-10-27
I'll have to re-read the book tonight but I'm pretty sure the way he traveled wasn't via a gate. Like I said, I'll give it another re-read. But I'm darn sure there was a twisting of reality involved and males bore through to make gates.
36
Callandor: 2003-10-27
I believe they don't mention a gate because RJ wanted the Prolouge to be more questions then answers. Who is the Dragon? Who was the man who visited LTT? What is saidin? How does one Travel?
Because he used a capital T in Traveled it is very obvious that he used the same way Rand and everybody else Travels: via a gate.
And RJ said that ISHY used the type of Traveling with the TP; so this pretty much eliminates any possibility that LTT Traveled outside the standard means.
37
Rand alThor15: 2004-04-11
the three ways of travelling, right out of Rand's mouth...welll...thoughts :
"Not just in the north, near the Blight. Here, or anywhere. They are using the Ways." That was something else he had to deal with. But how? First made with saidin, the Ways were dark now, as tainted as saidin. The Shadowspawn could not avoid all of the dangers in the Ways that killed men or worse, yet they still managed to use them, and if the Ways were not as quick as gateways and Traveling, or even Skimming, they still allowed hundreds of miles to be covered in a day. A problem for later. He had too many problems for later. He had too many problems for now. Irritably, he slashed at leatherleaf with the Dragon Scepter; pieces of wide, tough leaves fell, most brown. "If you've ever heard a legend about it, expect it. Even Darkhounds, though if they're really the Wild Hunt, at least the Dark One isn't free to ride behind them. They're bad enough anyway. Some you can kill, the way the legends say, but some won't die for anything short of balefire, that I'm sure of. Do you know balefire? If you don't, that is one thing I'll not teach you. If you do, don't use it on anything but Shadowspawn. And do not teach it to anyone."
Lord of Chaos, chapter3
38
Heron: 2004-09-18
Rand, the bit I think you're referring to, "gateways and Travelling, or even skimming" groups Travelling and gateways. I think it means "using gateways to Travel, or even using them to skim".
39
Jumai: 2004-09-20
I have always held that the LTT POV traveling was an instant teleport. Ish and lanfear can definitely do the same, but the SH traveling quote is (to memory) not conclusive.
I think the most logical thing said above was that RJ simply changed the traveling mechanics when it became clear that the Gateway meathod would ease the plot progression.
Still an interesting point of idle discussion. Doesn't seem to be any real reason to have two ways to Travel, and the teleport meathod has no apparent advantages. RAFO I guess, but I don't expect anything.
40
minalth: 2004-09-20
Rubbernilly, slayer can choose which of Luc or Isaam he appears as when he steps into or out of TAR, he can be Luc in the real world, then go to TAR and still be luc, or as he is going from one world to the other he could change to isaam, but he can not change when he is not between the real world and TAR.
There would be major advantages of not needing gateways to travel, it is so much faster. If someone was trying to kill you and you simply dissapeared, then it would be much faster than having to step through a gateway and waiting for it to close again behind you (during which time you can still be attacked)
Also, Lanfear could just have used a mask of mirrors to "dissapear" for Min...
I think that ishy/morridin knows a lot more about the power than even the other FS, I think it was lanfear who mentioned that she thaught that only ishy knew the trick of holding gateways open. if it is him who can do that does that mean that since he uses the TP regularly is this trick only possible by using the TP? of course not (proven rand being able to do it too of course) so why should this teleporting thing be TP only as well? RJ likes balance, what can the OP do that the TP can't to balance that out if you believe that teleporting is a TP only thing...
there was something else i was going to say, but i forgot it... oh well...
41
Callandor: 2004-09-20
**I think the most logical thing said above was that RJ simply changed the traveling mechanics when it became clear that the Gateway meathod would ease the plot progression.**
Ishamael in the Eye of the World Prologue, used the TP to Travel. RJ has confirmed this.
42
Elan Morin Tedronai 21: 2005-01-06
Actually Minalth, I think the only two of the FS that the books say can block gateways are Demandred and Semirhage, but if Ishy really does know more than the others then who can say whether he can or can't as well.
43
thethirdsa-angreal: 2007-01-23
I might be completly out of whack with the reply, however here goes nothing.
The theory of the third kind of Traveling has been niggling for a long time and "shimmering" effect has me thinking on the lines of "Portal Stones".
We know that when using "Portal Stones"
through One Power the worlds flicker through. and if done correctly you end up at another "Portal Stone" matching the symbol you were channeling at.
Also you require to channel a huge amount of OP to use the Portal Stones; therefore only the most powerful of the Channelers even in the AoL wre able to use them.
However not much was known even in the AoL about them. So it could be possible that Some of the most Powerful Channelers (LTT, Ishy, Lanfear) might have learned to access the other worlds without the Portal Stones and this could produce the shimmering effect.
