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achin Shin + Darkfriend = Gray man

by Rhodric: 2003-06-21 | Not yet rated

Previous Categories: Miscellaneous

As the title suggests, I think that to make grey men, the DO sends his little dupes to a nearby waygate and machin shin turns them to gray men aka soulless.

Consider the following quote, taken from the WOTmania site faq, under the RJ's ideas/opinions section:

* Machin Shin eats the souls and memories of the people it catches.*

if the body could be retrieved from a meeting between human and black wind, i think the result would be one of the soulless.

if this is true, then Machin Shin is simply the sum of a whole bunch of darkfriends' souls.

problem: Machin Shin 'eats' trollocs more readily than humans.

i think that this is because the DO feeds it humans all the time, and it doesn't get to eat the bodies, just souls.

also if the BW is darkfriends souls, then the darkfriends would like to show themselves as superior to trollocs, and hence eat them.

i hope this is new.

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Comments

Tamyrlin: 2003-06-26

The main problem I have with this theory is the assumption that all soulless are alike. We met the one Ogier soulless. Could the DO make an assasin out of him? I think the creation of gray men is more complex, where the DO retains the soul, and therefore retains control over the body, as though the gray men are fingers of the DO. We know the DO can take a man's soul, so why would he need Machin Shin? What you do point out is the similarity of their evil. They both are after souls.

Dorindha: 2003-06-26

Yes, the ogier that came out of the ways has none of the characteristics of a grey man as we know them: there is no problem looking at it, and it cannpt think - there is just "no one home". I think Tamyrlin is right - that the DO retains some control over the souls. - How would even the DO control Machin Shin, when it seems to be an entity all to itself - not controllable.

Shadow Bane: 2003-06-26

I good idea but... if the Black wind makes soulless then how did the DO make soulless before he tainted saidin and the ways were corrupted?

Callandor: 2003-06-26

They cant be from Machin Shin because where would they get there speed and ability to not be seen?

Anubis: 2003-06-27

what? y, whats the point? we know the dark one can do all kinds of nifty things to the souls of his minions at SG. hell, we've seen it done. the sword making, the mind traps. why is it that much of a streach to assume that the dark friends that want to be grey men are taken to SG, and transformed in some process that we havent seen, and probably wont because i cant see it being that important?

heronblade: 2003-06-27

plus, didn't we read that machin shin had a type of malevalent intelligence? it wanted to flay its captives. we heard its 'voice' the first time we traveled the ways and we also saw it mutilate a trollic that was following but didn't escape in time. im fairly sure tbe soulless have corporial bodies. i thought graymen were formed when the do reaninmated the corpus of one of his more devout followers (other than the forsaken) it would be jordans kind of humour that this is the type of everlasting life the darkfriends are so eager for

Niahanchi: 2003-06-29

I haven't read anything that makes me believe that Machin Shin is controlled by anything. As a matter of fact, eating Trollocs has been counter-productive for the DO at times. Can you imagine the DO letting something interrupt his plans if he could stop it?

Callandor: 2003-06-29

Darkfriends going to Shayol Ghul, yes, that makes a Grey Man in my view. But Darkfrinds to Machin Shin to make Grey Man... no way. Totally different things.

Rhodric: 2003-07-01

well i never believed this 100%, but wow! nobody likes this theory!

rebuttle:

after Machin Shin, the Ogier in tGH has no soul, Verin says something to that effect. (curse you Verin). but obviously the ogier has some sense of 'self' otherwise it would of dropped down dead.

when a DARKFRIEND is fed to Machin Shin and retrieved by the DO's forces, the resulting creature's only sense of 'self' is that it once obeyed an all powerful master. so this all powerful master shows up and the creature thinks (bad choice of word - think) "hey i know you i'll do whatever you say." DO gives knife, sez "go over there, kill". the creature complies.

hey i know im just hanging by tufts of grass over the edge of a steep cliff but i wrote this i thought i'd better attempt to defend it.

i have questions:

were there graymen in the AoL?

also is there another theory stream on this site about what Machin Shin is?

and Ogier make me think of highly evolved cows.

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