1
Tamyrlin: 2003-07-01
So, you believe that it is his "wolf" powers that enable Luc/Isam to enter T'A'R? Did Birgitte say that slayer was in T'A'R in the flesh (I can't remember)? So, where does the connection with the Finns come into play? I believe there is a possibility that Isam became a wolfbrother, this would explain his fascination with killing wolves in T'A'R, but we don't have any real evidence do we?
2
Niahanchi: 2003-07-01
I like the connection idea of Luc/Isam's memories. There is one problem. I don't have WOT with me right now, but Moiraine says that Perrin is protected from the DO by his wolf dream. So how did the DO get to him?
3
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-01
I personally have my own theory about the Tower of Ghenji(sp?). Slayer went through a doorway and one of the gifts he asked for was access to the tower whenever he wanted. About the evidence Perrin has recently seen some darkhounds in Altara think maybe Slayer is around? I do!
4
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-01
Niahanchi-
slayer was corrupted because he accidentally 'talked' to a darkhound the first time instead of a wolf so that would mean he could be corrupted the same way a darkhound could be. I'm saying this because we know darkhounds start off as wolves and wolves access the wolf dream so if they can be corrupted it seems logical a wolfbrother might be too.
5
WinespringBrother: 2003-07-01
Tamyrlin - I think (obviously) there is a lot of circumstantial evidence that piles up. As for how Slayer enters TAR, I believe he enters both in the flesh and when dreaming. This is because when Perrin shot him with the arrow, he left the Winespring Inn wounded. Now if he was in the flesh then, why would he have been in the Winespring Inn? Wouldn't he have left the dream in the flesh in the forest where he was shot, rather than go all the way back just to get his stuff? It seems he woke out of the dream injured, in the Inn, then left. It makes more sense.
6
rubbernilly: 2003-07-01
I tend to think that Slayer exists in TAR and tRW at the same time constantly. If he is Luc in TAR, then he is Isam in tRW, and vice versa.
Otherwise, his real-world body would have went with him into TAR and he would have escaped that way, rather than on horseback (as mentioned above).
7
Korell: 2003-07-01
Shadow Bane you bring up a very interesting point when you speak of Slayer going to the finn and asking for the ability to enter the tower whenever he wants here is the question i pose....WHY would the finn allow him to enter their world whenever he wants and if he went through the doorway WHY was he allowed to return if i remember correctly moraine forwarns against speaking of anything evil yet Slayer radiates evil perhaps not truly but how would he be able to survive such an encounter however if he did and he wished to be able to enter the tower at any time then they would have to grant it but still the question lingers why was he ever allowed to leave unless only one of the ego's entered it before they were merged then perhaps it might stand a chance i think this is a interesting point somone should do a theory on it heh
8
juitzhead: 2003-07-01
"He could not use Tel'aran'rhiod the way the Chosen could, but here was where he felt most free. Here, he could be who he wanted to be. He chuckled at the thought." and
"Stopping beside the bed, he carefully unsheathed the two poison daggers and stepped out of the Unseen World into the waking. As he did, he became Luc. It seemed appropriate. - Slayer, WH ch.22, p.447-8"
the quotes above indicate that he can be either Luc or Isam in TAR and in the waking world. It says he BECOMES Luc. Not Luc steps out and Isam remains behind.
(and he can be either in the real world as well, since it was Isam that killed the AS in Tear.)
as for Isam being a corrupted wolfbrother, im not sure. Im in the Slayer is a corrupted wolfbrother faction. I cant say that either Luc or Isam was the wolfbrother. Eye color is the main evidence for one of them not being wolfbrothers and i havent seen any quotes re. their eye color. Also, wolfbrother abilities take hold at different ages (Perrin, Elyas and Noam), so its not impossible for Luc to have become a wolfbrother after he left Andor.
cant remember who posted it but the wolves guarded Perrin's dreams. TEOTW Ch25
9
juitzhead: 2003-07-01
one more thing regarding the presence of someone in the wolfdream. How much of reality is affected by the Wolfdream. In TDR, when perrin is dreaming and he encounters lanfear, he gets blood on his clothes from the person lanfear killed. When he wakes, his clothes are stained with the blood. Was this an unconcious thing or does someone in the wolfdream actually take part of themselves in. (like being there in the flesh)
what is the difference b/w wolfdreaming and a WO/AS dreaming? they both happen in TAR. Would a wolfbrother just be a male dreamer?
10
Callandor: 2003-07-01
We do know Isams eye color:
**Ch. 53 The Price of a Departure
A hint of movement, and for an instant a face appeared above a fallen pine some fifty paces away. The slanting light illuminated it clearly. Dark hair and BLUE eyes, a face all hard planes and angles, so reminiscent of LAN'S face. Except that in that brief glimpse Slayer licked his lips twice; his forehead was creased, and his eyes darted as they searched.** (caps mine)
And we know Lucs:
**TSR Ch. 40 Hunter of Trollocs
LUC stood idly flipping the reins of a tall black stallion, the very pose of indolent, red-coated arrogance, cold BLUE eyes ignoring the men around him.**
11
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-02
Thanks Callandor good quotes. This could potentionally throw the whole theory but...as ive said above if Isam talks to darkhounds instead of wolves maybe the effects aren't the same. Interesting how they both have blue eyes...hmmm
12
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-02
Korell-
I thought about it and i think there are a few reasons they may let him enter.
1)Finn like to 'feed' off of memories right? Slayer might interest them because he is two people in one, therefore two sets of memories. The Finn are neither good nor bad just alien so they wouldn't care what his memories are like.
2)The Finn are being forced to. Maybe Slayer is somehow able to control the Finn (Weve never seen a dreamwalker go to Finnland which is connected to T'A'R though wat of the tower of ghenji)
3) This is kinda lame but ... a reason we don't know yet basically Rj just wants us to RAFO.
Otherwise your right the finn might not want Slayer coming and going when he pleases.
13
silverwolf: 2003-07-02
I hate to have to point this out, but Perrin never saw Slayer enter the Tower of Ghenjei; he saw Slayer head toward the tower, but never actually saw him enter it. It seems more reasonable to assume that Slayer knew what the Tower was (and how difficult it is to escape from it) and stepped out of the dream after leading Perrin there in hopes that Perrin would enter the Tower and become trapped. This is more reasonable than assuming Slayer can enter the realm of the Finns at will.
14
Korell: 2003-07-03
I definatly think it is a interesting point that he can come and go as he pleases so to speak but there have to be some kind of conditions for him to be able to do that you could be right about them having a special interest in him because of what he is or it would definatly be interesting if he had some power over them come to think of it have we ever seen anyone who knew how to be a dreamer go into one of the stone angreal? i dont think we have maybe because slayer can enter TAR without being in the flesh or with being in the flesh they find him interesting or maybe that has somthing to do with his possible control over them hmmm wonder when and if we will find out any thoughts on this?
15
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-03
I just have a question, i'm trying to figure out why Slayer might be able to go in and out of the ToG at will but can't find any quotes on what the ToG is exactly, like a way to access the finn. Anybody got quotes?
16
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-06
Ok first I am going to give all the information on the ToG in case any one cares.
TSR page 460 Perrin chases Slayer to ToG Meets Birgitte.
"A dangerous place, archer. The Tower of Ghenjei is a bad place for human kind."
"I only came to warn you, despite the prescripts. Once entered, the Tower of Ghenjei is hard enough to leave in the world of men. Here it is all but impossible."
"The Tower of Ghenjei what is it?"
"The tower? It is a doorway, archer, to the realms of the Aelfinn and Eelfinn."
"Did you ever play the game called Snakes and Foxes?"
"This Slayer is not old, but his evil is anceint."
Some points in favor of my theory-
1) Slayer is the name wolves give to Luc/Isam (no one else even Birgitte has heard the name)which shows they are unusually aware of him like Longtooth (Elyas), Young Bull (Perrin)and Shadowkiller (Rand, or the DR).
2)If the ToG is more dangerous in T'A'R that means it is affected by dreaming somehow (if Slayer is a corrupted wolfbrother he is a dreamer, therefore he could have control of events in the dream)
3) Slayer is obviously more than a simple darkfriend as his evil is ancient (darkhounds are ancient)
Thats all for now, anyone got other ideas on how Slayer could go to ToG
17
Anubis: 2003-07-07
if he were a wolfbrother perrin would have noticed when he ran into the guy. yellow eyes are not something that goes un noticed.
18
Pendragon: 2003-07-08
Some interesting points makes this theory false.
#1. As stated many, MANY times before, those bonded to wolves have gold eyes. Luc/Isam/Slayer does not. He has blue eyes, as stated earlier.
#2. The wolves know him as Slayer. That doesn't mean jack. The wolves know Rand as Shadowkiller. He has NO connection to the wolves. The wolves gave him that name because it characterizes him. It's been said in EotW I think that the true name of a wolf is so long, one could not fathom it so they shorten it to simple characteristics, like Hopper. He liked to Hop. Young Bull. The axe and the size of Perrin reminded the wolves of a bull. Longtooth. Elyas fights with a long knife. So we come to Slayer. He kills wolves. Slays them. That's it. He doesn't like them because besides the rare exception in a human, they are the only ones in T'A'R besides him. T'A'R is HIS domain, no one elses.
#3. There is no evidence that he has ever been in contact with Darkhounds. All Wolfbrothers exhibit traces of a wolf in him. Perrin has the eyes and can smell things. Elyas just looks like a wolf in men's clothing. Noam became feral, almost exactly like a wolf. Slayer has yet to show any atributes of a Darkhound. He can't burn stone with his feet, I know that.
#4. As stated before, Slayer never went into the Tower. I doubt that there will be any further correlation with the two. RJ put that in there so we wouldn't forget that the Tower was still there. ToG is Thom and Mat's storyline, Slayer is Perrin's. Or maybe even Lan's. We don't know. As Shadowbane said, it's lame, but RAFO.
19
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-08
Weve never seen someone who talks to darkhounds before, they might not have gold eyes. As for effects, Slayer can enter T'A'R, he hates wolves, and is a superb killer. These are attributes of dh's. Like I said though Slayer may not be fully intact with his corrupted wolfbrother abilities because Isam was merged with Luc, who I don 't think was a wolfbrother of any sort. Keep in mind Perrin nevers see's Isam in the flesh so he might not sense his wolfishness.
20
Rand-althor: 2003-07-08
I tend to disbelieve this. We have no proof at all of it, and the odds are against it, i mean in the millions of people who we have seen, only 3 have been wolfbrothers (Perin Elayas and Noam) so what are the odds that either Isam or Luc are wolfbrothers at all. Also if wolfbrothers could talk to Darkhounds, then why has Perin never sensed one? He can sense wolves from a fair distance away, and if talking to wolves is the same as talking to Darkhounds then Perin should be able to no problem.
21
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-09
Darkhounds are corrupted wolves, so its a little different. Also perrin was told to NEVER speak to a DH by Hopper cause they are the enemy of wolves everywhere.
22
WinespringBrother: 2003-07-09
Rand al'Thor:
"I tend to disbelieve this. We have no proof at all of it, and the odds are against it, i mean in the millions of people who we have seen, only 3 have been wolfbrothers (Perin Elayas and Noam) so what are the odds that either Isam or Luc are wolfbrothers at all. Also if wolfbrothers could talk to Darkhounds, then why has Perin never sensed one? He can sense wolves from a fair distance away, and if talking to wolves is the same as talking to Darkhounds then Perin should be able to no problem. "
1. Odds have nothing to do with it. Whether Slayer is a corrupted wolf brother is a decision based on plot by RJ, not a roll of the dice.
2. Where does it say that wolfbrothers can talk to darkhounds? Darkhounds are evil, therefore their enemies, therefore no reason to talk to them.
*** COT SPOILER ***
3. Perrin did sense darkhounds in a dream in COT.
COT, chapter 5:
"He ran easily through the night in spite of the snow that covered the ground. He was one with the shadows, slipping through the forest, the moonlight almost as clear to his eyes as the light of the sun. A cold wind ruffled his thick fur, and suddenly brought a scent that made his hackles stand and his heart race with a hatred greater than that for the Neverborn. "
"This dream was fading quickly, in the manner of dreams, yet he remembered being a wolf and smelling. . . . What? Something wolves hated more than they did Myrddraal. Something a wolf knew would kill him. "
23
Rand-althor: 2003-07-09
WinespringBrother your third point is more helpful to me than it is to you.
He ran easily through the night in spite of the snow that covered the ground. He was one with the shadows, slipping through the forest, the moonlight almost as clear to his eyes as the light of the sun. A cold wind ruffled his thick fur, and suddenly brought a SCENT that made his hackles stand and his heart race with a hatred greater than that for the Neverborn."
what brought his attention to it was a smell, not sensing them. Because they are wolves, it is not far fetched(no pun intended) to believe that they exist partly in TAR, therefore he smelled them as they were passing, then woke up.
24
WinespringBrother: 2003-07-09
Well, to me, smell is one of the 5 senses. But if you are talking about telepathy or however Perrin senses wolves, again, where does it indicate that Perrin can 'sense' darkhounds just because they used to be wolves. They are not wolves any longer, and it doesn't seem likely that Perrin would have the same connection with them that he has with wolves.
25
Rand-althor: 2003-07-10
I never said he could sense darkhounds. Look at your post above mine, one of the points YOU brought up was 3. Perrin did sense darkhounds in a dream in COT so YOU said that he can sense them, and are arguing with yourself, not me.
26
WinespringBrother: 2003-07-10
Rand:
"I never said he could sense darkhounds. Look at your post above mine, one of the points YOU brought up was 3. Perrin did sense darkhounds in a dream in COT so YOU said that he can sense them, and are arguing with yourself, not me. "
"Also if wolfbrothers could talk to Darkhounds, then why has Perin never sensed one? "
You raised the point that Wolfbrothers should be able to 'sense' darkhounds, and by extension, that he doesn't have that ability. Not me. That's YOUR argument, and I made 2 points to counter YOUR argument, that it's not relevant since they are no longer wolves and, besides that, he did 'sense' them in one meaning of the word. Instead of trying to challenge me with circular logic, please try to provide some facts or at least hypotheses to move the debate forward. :)
27
Rand-althor: 2003-07-11
I never said he could, when I said "Also if wolfbrothers could talk to Darkhounds, then why has Perin never sensed one? "
I was responding to the fact that you are claiming that he can talk to Darkhounds, and therefore sense them, but he has NEVER sensed a darkhound. He has SMELLED them more twice, in CoT and in TDR(in illian) but he has never sensed one the way he does the wolves therefore cannot talk to them. That comment was meaning IF he can talk to them, why hasn't he even noticed he can when he has been close enough to smell them twice.
28
WinespringBrother: 2003-07-11
Rand:
"I was responding to the fact that you are claiming that he can talk to Darkhounds, and therefore sense them, but he has NEVER sensed a darkhound. "
When did I ever claim that Perrin can talk to darkhounds? Never! I said that he can't. It's Luc/Isam that I think can talk to them.
29
Rand-althor: 2003-07-12
WineSpringBrother, I appologise. Now when I look back, I realize that it was Shadow Bane that implied he thought they could talk, both in the theory and in later posts. Again, I appologise for the mistake.
30
WinespringBrother: 2003-07-13
Heh. I see how hard it is to keep up with who's saying what in these threads. No sweat.
Just as I can see the point/counterpoint on SB's theory and my faction. That's why it is a faction and theory and not accepted fact.
31
Machera: 2003-07-30
Isam has blue eyes. IN the shadow rising both Perrin and Nye see Isam in the dream world. When Perrin sees him he remarks that he looks like Lan. That he could be his brother except that Lan has no living Relatives. when Nye sees him she's running from Birgette because birgette told her to leave. I'm not sure of the exact quote but it goes sumthin like as she rounded the corner of alises house she saw a man in a dark coat with a bow. Her breath caught. Lan no but he had the same face the same EYES. He raised the bow to her heart an shot it... And we all know that lan has blue eyes
32
Aelfinn: 2004-03-08
BTW, there's this interview I saw somewhere. A person asked right off, "Is Slayer a corrupted wolfbrother?"
RJ answered, "NO."
Anyone find the address, tell me.
33
HappyFade: 2004-03-08
Long Island, NY: Is Slayer a corrupted wolfbrother?
Robert Jordan: No.
It's about two thirds down the page
http://cgi1.usatoday.com/mchat/20040106007/tscript.htm
