s Thom Elayne's father?
by Particleman: 2003-08-27 | Not yet rated
We all know how often and how vehemently Elayne denies that Galad is her brother
EOTW pg.363 New Friends and Old Enemies
"I am not his sister," Elayne said firmly. "I refuse to be"
Well. little clues here and there are beginning to make me think she is correct.
EOTW pg. 363 New Friends and Old Enemies
"our father was his father," Gawyn said dryly. "You cannot deny that, unless you want to call Mother a liar, and that, I think, would take more nerve than we have between us."
TSR pg. 277 Deceptions
Her smile was just short of laughter, but she spoke as if reading from a page. "Thomdril Merrilin. Called the Gray Fox, once, by some who knew him, or knew of him. Court bard at the Royal Palace of Andor in Camelyn. Morgase's lover for a time, after Tatingail died. Fortunate for Morgase, Taringail's death. I do not suppose she ever learned he meant for her to die and himself to become Andor's first king. But we were speaking of Thom Merrilin, a man who, it is said, could play the Game of Houses in his sleep. It is a shame that such a man calls himself a simple gleeman. But such arrogance to keep the same name."
Thom masked his shock with an effort. How much did she know? Too much if she knew not another word.
TSR pg. 331-332 Winds Rising
Elayne found herself studying him much as she had the dolphins. What kind of man was this? Twice now he might have laughed at her--he had been amused just then, as much as she hated to admit it--but instead he talked to her seriously as....Well, as father to daughter.
Thin proof I know but there are other small hints ... like later in TSR when Thom slaps her for comparing her mother to Berelain (somewhere in the "A Cup of Wine" chapter I think) and probably others I have missed.
If this is correct we would have something that looks like this.
Thom + Morgase = Elayne (Channeler)
Taringail + Morgase = Gawyn (possible channeler?)
Janduin + Tigraine = Rand (bigtime channeler)
&
Taringail + Tigraine = Galad (possible channeler?)
Which brings me to my theory within a theory...if Galad can learn to channel, what will that do to the whitecloaks? Is he the only whitecloak who can learn to channel? I doubt the Asha'man have done much searching for men who can channel inside the whitecloaks. If there are other whitecloaks who can learn to channel....who will lead them? Galad?
Evidence for my sub-theory is even thinner that for Thom being Elayne's father I know but perhaps someone more knowlegable than I can find some other quotes to support or debunk this theory...if it makes it in that is.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2003-09-02
I agree with you, Thom could be Elayne's father. No one knows for sure when their affair began. There is one thought from Morgase, when she thinks of two good children that her loveless marriage gave her. But as you say, there are other quotes that suggest that Thom could be Elayne's father. Thom has Taringail killed, which tells me that his love for Morgase existed before the death of her husband. I would suggest asking Jordan. If it is simply impossible, he will probably say so. If he says RAFO, maybe there is something to the claim of Thom's paternity.
2
Callandor: 2003-09-02
Not this again. Thom is not Elayne's father. Morgase's POV says 2 children, she would know whose they were since she did give birth to them (unless you want to seriously claim otherwise). All that Morgase protecting Elayne and not telling her her father is Thom so she can possibly rule in Cairhien... then why would Morgase betray that in her own POV?
It just doesn't add up.
And I will quote RJ till he says otherwise:
**At a post-ACOS signing [Dunwoody, GA, 9 October, 1996], RJ strongly denied that Thom was Elayne or Gawyn's father. "Thom is exactly who he says he is."**
3
Callandor: 2003-09-02
Also just like to add that:
**Thom masked his shock with an effort. How much did she know? Too much if she knew not another word.**
That is refering to Thom killing Taringail in the plot, not due to Elayne or Gawyn or Galad.
4
Ashaman Grady: 2003-09-02
Thom + Morgase = Elayne (Channeler)
Taringail + Morgase = Gawyn (possible channeler?)
Janduin + Tigraine = Rand (bigtime channeler)
&
Taringail + Tigraine = Galad (possible channeler?)
What evidence is there that Gawyn and/or Galad can channel, besides the fact that Elayne is a channeler?
Thom could have been shocked about Morraine's depth of knowledge about him. Remember...even if she didn't mention about the murder of Cairhein's king, she knew enough to get Thom possibly murdered by the High Lords. The High Lords would view (quite correctly) that Thom was helping Rand establish and hold onto power. No more Thom = a lot of opportunity to get close and control Rand.
5
Him-who-may: 2003-09-03
As somebody who enjoys far out theories I feel obligied to back this up. I am undecided as to whether I actualy believe that Thom is the twins father but I do believe the theory has never given conclusive evidence 1 way or the other.
However if this theory is correct then I believe niether Thom or Morgase are sure of maybe not even suspect Thom is the father. Morgase at least believe the twins are hers and Thom's behavoir could simply be attributed to fatherly feeling from raising her.
Pros:
1) The time is right for Thom as he was the bard for Morgase before she became Queen. If their relationship started before and/or during her marriage to Taringail then this would fit exactly.
2) Thom and the twins share many traits (skill at game of houses could also be from Morgase) such as stubborness and skill at acrobatics (she tightrope walks without channeling).
3) Channeling is hereditary (sp? sorry). Thom is related to a channeler. Elayne and maybe Gawyn are channelers.
4) Thom is fair haired which is rare for Andorian I think (his hair is white not grey and most older people who are dark haired go grey, in my family at least) but both twins resemble Morgase more so this is grasping at straws abit.
Cons:
1) We are unsure of the exact dates of Thom and Morgase's relationship. We know they must have been close at her asscension (sp? again) but were they simply close friends or nothing but pupil and teacher? If so then what were Thom's motives? I think this suggests they were fairly close.
2) Many characters also share these traits and we know that Taringail must have fairly skilled at the game of houses if he thought to make himself king if not acrobatics.
3) Morgase also has the ability to channel so it could simply be inherrited from her alone.
4) As well as just being a weak point with the hair colour we have no actual evidence where Thom is from.
On the whole I think that we have never been given any evidence to set this argument to rest but should be careful what we do treat as evidence. I think the point of Thoms suprise in Tear when talking to Moiraine is rather weak. He was suprised because a) she might know he killed Taringail (who I'm not sure but could haqve been related to) b) she might know of him being the twins father c) this is a past he thought well hidden that she knows all about. All or none of these could be the reason for his suprise. I think to look to deeply into what characters think about when we are not told is taking our role as readers abit too far. Only 1 man KNOWS what the characters are thinking and only he can put the theory to rest with hard evidence.
Extending tis point alittle what would it mean if Thom was the twins father? Does Gawyn have memories of Thom. When Galad saved Gawyn from the snake in his crib he was old enough to know what would have happened if he let Gawyn die. This makes him about 6-7 in my mind. What memories does he have of Thom. What would he do if he discovered Thom killed his father? Would he think Thom's reason good enough (he considres Morgase his mother it would seem).
As with evreything in these great books, every answer brings more questions :)
6
Priest: 2003-09-03
Just to clarify: Gawyn and Elayne are NOT twins. Gawyn is older.
7
Callandor: 2003-09-03
**2) Thom and the twins share many traits (skill at game of houses could also be from Morgase) such as stubborness and skill at acrobatics (she tightrope walks without channeling).**
The skill at the Game of Houses comes from the enviroment Elayne grew up in; she was after all raised to be a queen and needed to be able to read into Cairhien plots.
And Thom taught Elayne many of the tricks she used in TFOH. The first time she was channeling so really her "start" in acrobatics can be very similar to any middle school gym class.
8
Particleman: 2003-09-04
There is no evidence (yet) that Galad or Gawyn can channel but I don't think they have been tested, or even been near a man who can channel since EOTW when they both went to Tar Valon.
Speculating about wht the chatacters are thinking is what is fun about discussion groups such as this one, even if it is taking our role a readers too far. Speaking of speculation, Morgase may not want to believe that Thom is Elayne's father, she knows what it would to to Elayne's claims to the throne...if you tell yourself a lie often enough you start to believe it yourself.
I wonder if Thom has told us everything that he is yet?
9
Him-who-may: 2003-09-04
I would like to think that there is alot to Thom still to be discovered but have a feeling that he shall be put to the background abit unless the rescue of Morgase theory comes true or hefinds the sisters on the list Moiraine gave him.
All that has happened to Thom recently are a few comments about his depression over Moiraines letter. I would like to see him spurred into action again.
However what I want don't matter at all does it :) If I had my way I would like to see Geofram Bornhald as a prisoner of Suroth, captured at Falme and now kept by her for simular reasons as to why Rand keeps the spear. Defient, twisted and bitter. Given to Rand and he becomes as totally dedicated to Rand as Pevin was (dead bannerman, killed in assult on Caemlyn).
Ah well. Dream on I'm afraid. But maybe Thom will be brough back into the fore yet. We never know.
10
Callandor: 2003-09-04
**Speaking of speculation, Morgase may not want to believe that Thom is Elayne's father, she knows what it would to to Elayne's claims to the throne...if you tell yourself a lie often enough you start to believe it yourself.**
If your talking about the Lion Throne that is DEAD wrong. Morgase can have any husband she wants and have a daughter in Andor and if that daughter goes for the throne she will have the strongest claim to that throne because of who MORGASE is, not who her father was.
But if you mean the Cairhien throne... why would she need to be "lying to herself" when we the readers are told flat out that she has had 2 kids from Taringail!! IN HER POINT OF VIEW AND IN THE BWB!
I really do not see the point of this post anymore. Thom is not Elayne's father.
11
Rhodric: 2003-09-04
**we the readers are told flat out that she has had 2 kids from Taringail!!**
no the quote has 'wiggle room' as Tam once called it. Morgase thinks the only thing good from that MARRIAGE was two beautiful children, as opposed to thinking the only good things from that MAN were two children.
the "marriage" could refer period of time while she was married, and Elayne was born during that time. it is still possible that Thom is her father.
IMO he is not, but it's not 100% clear. more like 90%. unless RJ said otherwise...
12
Therilon: 2003-09-05
Thank you, Callandor.
Also, I fail to see how this quote:
'"I am not his sister," Elayne said firmly. "I refuse to be"'
and this quote:
'"our father was his father," Gawyn said dryly. "You cannot deny that, unless you want to call Mother a liar, and that, I think, would take more nerve than we have between us."'
provide proof. Remember, Gawyn was born before Elayne. A year or two before Elayne. I doubt that Moiraine was having an affair with Thom then.
Nitpick: People in Andor are generally fair haired. It's the Cairhienens that have dark hair.
13
Particleman: 2003-09-05
"I really do not see the point of this post anymore. Thom is not Elayne's father. "
:P Nobody is forcing you to post in this thread and just because you say it with coviction doesn't I have to accept it. I'm going to stick with my thought on this one regardless of how you feel about it...unless you are an alter ego of RJ himself...and I may not believe you even then...perhaps you have forgotten how stubborn Two Rivers folk can be. :)
14
Him-who-may: 2003-09-06
It is a possibility that even Morgase isn't aware that Thom is the father. Not a likely possibility but as I have already pointed out the time frames are obscure enough to make it possible that Thom and Morgase were involved before, after AND during her marriage.
No contreception and no methods for finding out who the father is.
Obviously it is not my choice and I shall respect the ruling of the runner of the site, but I think this thread still has more to offer.
15
Callandor: 2003-09-06
**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 19 - Memories
Taringail Damodred she had wed for political reasons. He had been married to Tigraine, the Daughter-Heir whose disappearance had set off the Succession when Mordrellen died. Marrying him had made a link with the old queen, smoothing the doubts of most of her opponents, and more importantly, had maintained the alliance that had ended the ceaseless wars with Cairhien. In such ways did queens choose their husbands. Taringail had been a cold, distant man, and there was never love, despite two wonderful children; it had been almost a relief when he died in a hunting accident.**
I really don't get how people can say there is room for Morgase's children to not have come from Taringail when she is thinking about her husband and what they did and her two children are in the same sentence. Where is there room to move about here? Simple. THERE ISN'T!
And, if you are going to deny even THAT as not enough proof, go to the BWB, page 237. And you will find:
**Morgase bore two children by Taringail, the Daughter-Heir, Elayne, and the First Prince of the Sword, Gawyn, and adopted his [Taringail] and Tigraine's son Galadedrid.**
Look at that, said flat out: Taringail is the father, Thom is a boyfriend after his death. Thom is not the father of Elayne.
16
Jiana: 2003-09-07
Elayne has also had thoughts where she wishes that she would discover that Thom was really her father... But none of the "evidence" so far can really be called evidence... but I guess that's why this is called a theory. :)
A fun idea, to use Tam's words, to think that maybe Thom is Elayne's father... But personally, I don't think so.
17
Him-who-may: 2003-09-07
As I have repeatadly stated, there is chance that Morgase believes Thom isn't the father but is incorrect. We do not know when Morgase and Thom were having a relationship. It is all too possible that he was in her service before she becme Queen. And they could have been having a relationship then
**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 19 - Memories
Taringail Damodred she had wed for political reasons. He had been married to Tigraine, the Daughter-Heir whose disappearance had set off the Succession when Mordrellen died. Marrying him had made a link with the old queen, smoothing the doubts of most of her opponents, and more importantly, had maintained the alliance that had ended the ceaseless wars with Cairhien. In such ways did queens choose their husbands. Taringail had been a cold, distant man, and there was never love, despite two wonderful children; it had been almost a relief when he died in a hunting accident.**
Morgase also says in this passage that it was a relief when Taringail died in hunting accident.
She was wrong bout 1 thing, so why not two.
18
Callandor: 2003-09-07
So, then Morgase puts her relationships in order of sucession (Taringail, Thom, Bryne, and Rahvin), and puts her children with Taringail BEFORE the realationship with Thom... and you say she would be wrong about who she was sleeping with and who got her pregnant and who was the father of her children? Again, I have to say, NO WAY!
19
SDog: 2003-09-12
Couple things...
The genetic thing is very weak. First, there is absolutely no reason to believe Gawyn is a channeler, since the channeling gene is highly recessive (only 2-3% of the entire population has it). The odds of two kids in the same family are low (except in the Two Rivers, apparently). Moreover, even if Gawyn was a channeler, it proves nothing. We KNOW Morgase can channel, if only a little. That's all that is required. After all, Rand's father, Janduin, obviously couldn't channel, because he lived long enough to lead the spears in the Aiel War and father Rand. If he could channel, he would have been sent off when he was young to the Blight.
Finally, in the days of no paternity testing, if a woman is sure a man is the father, there is little room for doubt. She would have considered that Thom was the father if they had had sex anytime within weeks of when she found out she was pregnant. It's not like they knew about Natural Family Planning and ovulation cycles to the extent we do now. My opinion is that, if there was any doubt, Morgase wouldn't have thought it to herself.
It's possible RJ is throwing this out there to make us curious, but the evidence seems stacked against Thom as her father. Besides, if Thom was her father, wouldn't she have a moustache?
20
Particleman: 2003-09-16
In the end it will probably be that Thom is not Elayne's father but there were just too many hints to ignore this possibility. Considering how old and worn out this theory is I think it may have been something RJ was thinking about/planning but when it became so obvious so quickly to so many fans he abandoned it as something that could no longer be sprung as a surprise...no proof of this of course..
it's probably one of those htreads he is going to leave hanging...he has said he isn't going to tie it all up in one neat knot.
21
rubbernilly: 2003-09-18
Just a note about channeling being a piece of the genetic information passed on to offspring... if you call channeling a recessive gene, then you are saying that the child of two channelers (like the babes Elayne is carrying) will be channelers. Both parents, being channelers, could only pass on pro-channeling genetic material.
Unless - and I'm no geneticist - there are ways that combinations of genes could determine features/attributes/abilities. If a set of recessive genes were involved rather than just one, I suppose that could account for the low percentage of channelers. But, even then, if all those genes were recessive, then doesn't that say that children of channeling parents will themselves become channelers? For all of the recessive genes involved in a multi-gene controlling archetype, the parents could still only pass on pro-channeling gene information. Wouldn't the children still be channelers then?
22
heronblade: 2003-09-21
what if it was a section of base pairs that had to be in a paticular sequence in relation to another set of base pairs. remember that AS dont often have childeren so it might well be genetic but it could be a sequence of recesive genes. such as one that allows touching of the source and one seeing of the weaves and one streangth of power and they all cause cirtain hormones to be produced that combine together to allow use of the power.
23
rubbernilly: 2003-09-22
But, being recessive, wouldn't a channeling parent pass on *only* pro-channeling genetic information?...
So do you agree that the children of two channeling parents would automatically be able to channel/learn?
24
Jiana: 2003-09-23
I for one agree that the offspring of two channelers would automatically be able to channel or learn, depending on how the Power manifested itself in the parents (i.e., inborn spark or learning). But to my way of thinking, if you have one parent that can channel, and one parent that cannot, and their offspring can channel, then their offspring has a fifty-fifty chance of producing yet more offspring that can channel.
Is it just me or is this getting a bit too complicated? :)
25
heronblade: 2003-09-24
If it were a set of genes required in a particular combonation it could be that the genes are dominant and you need them all. or alternativly recesive but those who have a single gence can learn but those with a pair have the spark. there it is never cirtain that a particular charactoristic can be passed on. some genes can skip a generation for no reason and some mutate spontaniously. the devision of genes is a very complex thing and sometimes not all the genes are split. a sequence might just be left out of the gamete cause the proverbial zipper got stuck. more than likely any children will be channelers but u'll have to wait to adolesonce to find out...
26
Vander: 2003-10-05
another point against Thom being elaynes father...at least if morgase knew that, is that i dont think she would have been QUITE so eager to have his head when he had to run out of caemlyn 2 steps against her guards. i dont care what he did, unless it was a LOT more serious then what it was, she's not gonna be quite as mad as she was if he was her children's father.
