1
Tamyrlin: 2003-09-25
Okay, so I usually don't let topic posts through, I think they should be reserved for the message board, which makes for a good arena to discuss general ideas. But, the talk has been slow recently, so what the hell. RJ has been strange in his responses to this question. It has always been my belief that balefired souls will be reborn or can be reborn in another age. But I think RJ distinguishes between a balefired nobody and a balefired Forsaken. Has Rahvin's soul returned to the general soul pool awaiting rebirth? I think so, but I was under the impression that Jordan said his soul was lost forever.
2
kikyo: 2003-09-25
Well, the books say that when someone is balefired their thread is ripped from the pattern. To me, that implies that they are gone from all existence. However, that certainly does present a problem if the Dragon were ever to be balefired. But I think that the Dragon never would be balefired because just as he is the key to the Light winning, the Dark One wants him as well, because if the Dark One can turn the Dragon to his side, then he is the key to the Dark winning as well.
3
Callandor: 2003-09-25
RJ has said before that all souls, even if balefired, return to be reborn again later (to me it is after the wheel fully turns another 7 ages). However he has also said that if the Forsaken were balefired, they are gone for good.
Well, won't be balefired for 2 reasons:
1. The Pattern won't let him die till he is needed to die (none of that come back to life after 3 days crap).
2. It is REALLY anti-climatic, and you know RJ wouldn't do that :) (hopefully).
IF, Rand would be balefired, most likely he would be reborn again after some time (long time of course), but again, the Pattern really won't let him die till needed.
4
Korell: 2003-09-26
I believe i read an interview with RJ and i thought he had said somthing to the affect that BFed souls were not gone for ever only unable to be saved at the present time i cant remember where it was but i thought maybe on dragonmount.com cant remember for sure though if somone could give a better quote it would probly help but i am with Tamrylin on this one i belive that they can be reborn from the soul pool
5
Dorindha: 2003-09-26
I always thought that the point of balefire was that the soul got erased from the pattern. Surely if ANY soul got balefired the pattern would throw up someone else needed for a specific function, but the same soul would not come back, and would be lost forever.
However, unless RJ has said anything specific, we don't know anything about the creator's power over souls, so everything has to be based on what we know about the DO's power.
6
Caramoor: 2003-09-27
People who are destroyed with balefire are only removed from the pattern before the balefire actually destroys them. The souls of the people remain. If a thread was totally removed from the pattern, then all actions that person ever performed would also be removed.
Thus I beleive that nothing can destroy a soul, except maybe removing it from its resting place (i.e. Birgitte from TAR).
7
Rand-althor: 2003-09-28
But Birgette's thread has not been ripped out of the pattern. It was placed into the patern, because it technically was not 'in' the pattern while in T'A'R because she didn't exist in the real world
8
Foxwolf: 2003-10-10
I'm pretty sure that when the Forsaken are killed thier souls go back to the Dark One cause of thier link to him. But Balefired souls burn up that link so they go past the Dark One and straight to wherever it is souls go.
9
Cor Shan: 2003-10-10
Birgitte was rewoven IMHO, when she met Nyn and Eyl in TAR. Thats why el couldnt see GC or he was misty when Birg was chatting w/ him. She didn't know, and this 3rd Age might be a little different, as Moggy ripping out Birgette seems a little too big for a normal variation. Of course if this A3 _is_ the last of the normal (before this tg screws evrything up) turning, then this is acceptable.
10
a dragonburned fool: 2003-11-13
The balefire effects are maybe the most interesting fact about the specifics of RJ' concept's of "soul" and "Pattern"; so it's an important question. Actualy the question is what is the relation between the soul and the thread in Pattern. What a balefire destroys is the thread and not the whole thread, but some snip of it, some extension of it in the time. The more power in the balefire, the deeper in the past it's effect on the thread, therefore there is part of the thread remaining untouched by the balefire. Something more, it's the thread, what makes it possible for balefire to change the past, something as partialy rewinding the thread.
I think the thread itself could be described as record, trace of a soul in the Pattern, while the life of a soul is only in the way of making such trace. A soul can be reincarnated, therefore it's not identical with a thread. If a common soul reincarnates more than one time in one of the seven ages, then a soul makes several independent records in the pattern. At least one group of souls (the Heros of the Horn) has some existence outside of the Pattern, it's a good question, are the common souls too somewhere out of the pattern.
I think, what balefire does is something to the connection between the soul and the Pattern, and this in a definite interval of time. DO's way of reincarnating Forsaken is most possibly depending from some continuous process in the Pattern, and the balefire interrupts it. But the past of the soul, wich was not balefired, ramains in the Pattern, and the next time the Age comes it will maybe live again. But what happens when in this next time the life is near to the moment of the balefiring? That could be answered only if we know, how the souls incarnate in the same body again in that crazy cyclic time.
Excuse me for the confused ideas I have written here. It's because the question about balefire touches so complex mix of deeper questions. I think the immediate answer is: no, the soul is not destroyed. But so many other important questions are here in!
11
Arbryan: 2004-03-26
Another thing to consider is the fact that there are two distinct representations of each person. 1. Body 2. Soul
Let's take a look at Rand for an example.
Rand has a very distinct soul (LTT, The Dragon). However, he has a very distinct genetic heritage (Aiel and Andoran. In Rhuidean we see him trace his genetic past lives).
So if balefire destroys the thread does it destroy the genetic side or the soul side of the person, or both?
Is the pattern the weave of souls or lives or both?
Is one or the other a connection to mirror worlds? Or is the difference between mirror worlds that your soul does not inhabit the bodies there (unless you travel through a ter'angreal)?
What would happen if you inverted a weave of balefire, would you create a thread, or bring someone back to life? (just a little levity)
Sorry, more questions than answers but as Tam pointed out this is more of a topic...
12
Callandor: 2004-03-27
**So if balefire destroys the thread does it destroy the genetic side or the soul side of the person, or both?**
You destroy the body; the soul is immortal.
**Is the pattern the weave of souls or lives or both?**
The Pattern is the compilation of all the threads in existance. Those threads are representations of lives. When a person dies, the thread ends.
13
Fatum Turbatus: 2004-05-03
Balefire is a weapon that removes the target's thread from the Pattern in both directions, past and future. The stronger the balefire, the further the thread is removed. This refers to the physical remnants of what that thread did in the Pattern, meaning that if they killed someone and were immediately after balefired, their action of killing that person would never have happened and the person would seemingly be brought back to life.
Now, it seem to be a common notion among the Chosen that if a person is killed, the Great Lord can bring them back to life if they are worthy of revival (or if the Great Lord wishes to punish them). However, it is also known that the Great Lord can NOT bring back a person who was killed by balefire. This would seem to indicate that the person who was hit by balefire no longer can be revived or reborn.
14
Fatum Turbatus: 2004-05-03
Another idea to think about - what would happen if two people hit each other with balefire and the EXACT same time?
To me, it would seem that one would kill the other, but be hit by balefire, removed from the pattern, and therefore the other person would not have died. But if that is the case, which would be revived? Or would they both be? Could be fun to play with if neither would be killed.
"Now I'm dead, now I'm not. Now I'm dead, now I'm not."
15
Heron: 2004-09-29
This has been posted elsewhere, I can't think where exactly, but balefire exists outside of time, partially or wholly. If you are balefried, you are dead. Adn have been for some time, although you didn't know it. That brings up questions for me, though, how does balefire exist outside of time? Is it a weaving technique of the Wheel, to set up specific sets of occurrances that otherwise couldn't happen for the overall balance of the Pattern?
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Callandor: 2004-09-30
**That brings up questions for me, though, how does balefire exist outside of time?**
Think of it better as "Balefire is removed from it's own effects." As in, if person A balefires person B, then person C balefires person A, it doesn't matter the strength involved, the balefire still took place, and person A and person B are both still dead; they will not magically come back to life.
