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Home | Index | Archives | Help
ho is Setalle Anan?
by Kadel: 2003-12-15 | Not yet rated
Previous Categories: Miscellaneous
1st of all, she does not show Aes Sedai the same apprehensive respect which other people do, nor does she seem the least bit bothered by having the Source channeled at or around her.
She even compared Joline Sedai to "a novice sniveling in her bed and throwing tantrums."
2nd, She displays all the manerisms of an Aes Sedai, even to the promting of these thoughts by Mat:
"She was pretty despite a touch of gray in her hair and her marriage knife nestled in roundness that normally would have drawn his eyes like moths to a candle, yet looking at her that way would have been like looking at...Not his monther. At an Aes Sedai maybe..." CoS chapter 17
3rd, She knows things that are odd for anyone not tower trained to know.
"Slowed, slowing. How did an Innkeeper in Ebou Dar know those words? Maybe Setalle had gone to the tower as a girl, though she would not have remained long since she clearly could not channel." CoS chapter 22
Also she recognized Garenia of the Kin as Zarya, the runaway from the tower, some 70 years ago.
4th, considering the Kin, Reanne treated her with a great deal of respect, although it seemed an afterthought, as though she was suddenly reminded of something about Setalle.
If my theory is true, Setalle need not be recognized by any Aes Sedai, because stilling seems to change ones face to the point where no one could tell you were who you were, let alone that you had been Aes Sedai. No one would even believe Siuan without a great deal of proof.
There is the point that people do not live long after being stilled, but that seems to be without solid evidence, as very little study has been made about such a painful subject as stilling, and many Aes Sedai beliefs are being disproven, such as the ability to heal stilling.
I think it is possible that Setalle Anan is a stilled Aes Sedai who followed the tower reject trail to Ebou Dar. Why she would have been stilled, I could not say- although perhaps it had to do with her pregnancy- nor can I say what direction this could take within the story. If I am right she will probably be healed, but to what end...?
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2003-12-19
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
You know, i could've sworn that there were several theories on this one in the archives. But i can't find them. i know we've discussed it at length on the message boards.
Anyway, since i can't find it anywhere, maybe you're the first to put it all down into theory form. Most agree that Setalle Anan used to be Aes Sedai. Many think she was burned out. Some think she was stilled and exiled. A few think she may have been an Amrylin.
spearmaiden: 2003-12-19
One small thing: She's more likely burnt out than stilled. When she tries on the A'dam, the reaction is completely different than when Siuan and Leane try on the bracelet of Moghedien's A'dam. Siuan and Leane (who were stilled, of course) are able to sense Moghedien and sense the source, but not send pain to Moghedien or control saidar through it. On the other hand, when Setalle put on the bracelet, the AS wearing the leash screamed in pain. But other than that, you're probably right, and I think most people would agree with you.
molec: 2003-12-19
She wasn't merely stilled because she is completely unable to do anything with the a'dam. This is different from Suian who was stilled. Setalle Anan was likely burned out.
Deadsy: 2003-12-19
Some people think she's Martine Janata:
"Martine Janata also knew what she was doing, so I understand," she said casually. "She was the last sister to really make a business of studying ter'angreal. She did it for over forty years, almost from the time she reached the shawl. She was careful, too, so I was told. Then one day, Martine's maid found her unconscious on the floor of her sitting room. Burned out." Even in a conversational tone, those words were a sharp slap. Vandene's voice did not alter a hair, though. "Her Warder was dead from the shock. Not unusual in cases like that. When Martine came to, three days later, she couldn't recall what she had been working with. She couldn't remember the preceding week at all. That was more than twenty-five years ago, and no one since has had the nerve to touch any of the ter'angreal that were in her rooms."
The Kin helped Setalle with her first childbirth "more than twenty years ago" and that's how they met her.
wilder: 2003-12-19
Not disagreeing with the theory, but a couple quick points:
Being stilled and being burned out are the same. The woman can sense the Source, but not touch it.
tSR p.118 "Burned out" was what it was callled when it happened by accident; officially, stilling resulted from trial and sentence. Egwene could not see the point of it, really; it was like having two words for falling down the stairs, depending on whether you tripped or were pushed. For that, most Aes Sedai seemed to see it as the same..."
Also, Setalle does not send pain down the bracelet to Joline. Joline starts having muscle cramps when she takes more than a couple of steps. This is the same effect Egwene experiences while she is damane.
tGH p.595 "If a damane moved her bracelet so much as a foot from where it had last been touched by a sul'dam ... Renna had made her do that, too -- had made her carry her own bracelet across the room. Or try to. She was sure it had only been minutes before the sul'dam snapped the bracelet firmly on her own wrist, but to Egwene the screaming and the cramps that had had her writhing on the floor had seemed to go on for hours."
Joline got muscle cramps because she tried to move without a sul'dam holding her leash. Since a sul'dam is a woman who can learn to channel, she apparently must be able to see AND touch the Source, which Setalle cannot.
We are not told if Setalle could sense anything through the adam as Siuan and Leane did. She was just trying to get it off and help Joline once the cramps started.
In support of the idea that Setalle was AS, whatever has happened since, Joline says: WH p.647 "Have we met somewhere before? Sometimes, when I cannot see your face, your voice sounds familiar."
ilgross: 2003-12-20
Question:
Can Nynaeve heal burning out or only stilling?
The two are obviously different stilling seems to just 'cut the connection'. It seems very surgical and precise.
Thus not too difficult to heal so to speak.
However I think burning out is more like burning the whole bridge down. This could explain the different reactions of Setalle and Siuan.
Deadsy: 2003-12-20
Unfortunately RJ never had Siuan or Leane moving with it on. I think he was *trying* to tell us that stilling and burning out are different though. There is no evidence that people who are burned out can sense the source. The only evidence that stilling and being burned out are the same is that people think they are. These same people thought stilling couldn't be healed.
molec: 2003-12-21
Wilder, you provide nice quotations to illuminate the fact that Setalle is clearly not able to do a thing with the adam, since Joline (who is collared) is unable to move even a few steps without wrenching pain. You conservatively say that we are unable to conclude anything about Setalle's (in)ability to sense the source because we do not have her point of view.
However, remember the circumstances in Salidar when Siuan is wearing the adam. Moghedien is wearing the collar and she is busy doing manual labor, presumably moving around during the whole time. There is no report of her writhing in pain on the ground when Suian wears the bracelet.
Therefore, we can reasonably conclude that Siuan and Setalle were respectively, able and unable to sense the source through the adam. By extension, Setalle was not merely stilled, but burned out. Perhaps this cannot be healed, or at least not in the same way as stilling.
Zaela Sedai: 2003-12-21
Setalle was definately AS, it's just a matter of who, we'll probably RAFO. We don't know yet if burned out channellers can be healed, I'm sure Nyna/Flynn will try at some point though.
SauceyBlueConfetti: 2003-12-22
Frenzy, there are other discussions in the theories sections about Setalle Anan...two are:
Verins Motivations & Plans (Three Score and ten years ago)
Miscellaneous Before COT (Verins 70 year plan)
both have good info in them for anyone that is thinking about this topic
wilder: 2003-12-23
Molec, when Siuan and Leane try the adam bracelet, Moghy is sitting on a stool in the room with them. (LoC, the First Message) Also, the adam Elayne made is clearly different from the Seanchan adam, because Moghy is able to move around, do chores, and such while Elayne carries the bracelet in her pouch rather than wearing it.
"Where is the bracelet?" she asked softly ... "Where is Marigan?"
"The bracelet is in my pouch, Nynaeve." Elayne stepped aside to let a high-wheeled cart pass, then joined Nynaeve again behind the cart. "Marigan is doing our laundry, with about twenty other women around her." (LoC, Fire and Spirit)
Since the adam Elayne made allows more freedom of movement than the Seanchan adam, it may differ in other ways too. I'm not sure we can draw valid conclusions by comparing the effects when Suian and Leanne used Elayne's adam to the effects when Setalle tried the Seanchan adam.
We'll have to agree to disagree on the stilling/burned out issue. I still believe they are the same effect.
With respect to whether being burned out can be Healed, the AS who were burned out when Rand was freed were Healed by Flinn.
It will be interesting to see who Setalle turns out to be, I'm sure we will find out in another five books or so :)
mako0424: 2003-12-23
I have been wondering this alot myself, because not only did i just reread LoC, but it hints at alot of things as this theory does to. Setalle was definitly AS it seems to me, but the right question again is who.
But two major points i need to iluminate upon are someone said Moggy and Siuan were seperated quite far from each other without Moggy feeling cramps, remember Elayne used the idea of an a'dam to make that Ter'angreal, it is like an a'dam but no bracelet allowing distance.
And another point, is there any way Setalle can maybe still channel and she is hiding this fact. Maybe thats why when she put the a'dam on Joline felt pain, and Setalle quickly took it off realizing she could give away her ability. It makes some sense, and than no sense.
But again the question is important, Which AS is she.
I think Setalle is going to be a very major and crucial character though. Mat had the dice rolling in his head when he entered Ebou Dar, and they only stopped when he met Setalle. This hints at her importance, and even though she did help him escape, i think she has alot more in store.
And one last point. I never thought there was any difference between being stilled and burning out. One is purposeful, and one is accidental. I think both are being severed from the source, and therefore both can be Healed (by Nynaeve or Flynn im sure) if there were any differences, they would be slight, nothing they can't handle.
But any other ideas would be appreciated.
Tamyrlin: 2003-12-23
Wilder, would you mind quoting the books concerning the burned out AS you believe were healed by Flinn? Also, your quote concerning Egwene is not definitive, she is a silly little girl who is quoting something she believes to be true, but we have the breadth of the entire novel and multiple characters to suggest a conclusion much different than Egwene has come to regarding burning out. When someone is stilled, they can still feel the One Power, when someone is burned out they can no longer feel the presence of the One Power. Stilling is a cut, burning out appears to be much more significant damage.
: 2003-12-23
Tamyrlin, Here's my case for burned out = stilling:
First there is Egwene's quote that I used earlier,
tSR p.118 "Burned out" was what it was called when it happened by accident; officially, stilling resulted from trial and sentence. Egwene could not see the point of it, really; it was like having two words for falling down the stairs, depending on whether you tripped or were pushed. For that, most Aes Sedai seemed to see it as the same..."
Now, granting that any POV character may be injecting their own bias, here's a defintion of "stilling" and "burned out" from RJ.
From the glossary of LoC, "stilling: The removal of a woman's ability to channel. A woman who has been stilled can sense but not touch the True Source. Officially, stilling is the result of trial and sentence for a crime....When the ablilty to channel is lost accidentally, it is called being burned out, though 'stilling' is often used for that also."
Roughly the same definition is found in the CoS glossary.
In three different books, and from two different sources(POV character and glossary) we are told that stilling and being burned out are the same. In fact, they are so much the same that the terms are used interchangably.
By definition,then, the AS at Dumai's Wells were burned out, because they were severed accidentally, not as a result of trial and sentence. These are the same AS that Flinn Heals later in the series.
One thing that may have confused people is that some AS seem to fear being burned out more than stilling. I think that's not because one is worse than the other, but that one os more likely to happen than the other. Stilling is, officially, only the result of trial and sentence, so if you obey Tower law, you can avoid that. However, being burned out can happen from drawing too much of the OP, playing with ter'angreal, etc., so it's harder to guard against.
In the end though, both are the same. A woman can sense the True Source, but not touch it.
Deadsy: 2003-12-23
They're never referred to as being burned out that I remember.
"'He . . . stilled three sisters?' Samitsu said shrilly. Suddenly she slapped a hand over her mouth and twisted around to lean over the side of the swaying wagon and retch loudly."
"Verin jerked back into the tent, her stomach roiling queasily. Irgain was Green Ajah. Or rather, had been Green, before Rand al'Thor stilled her."
Callandor: 2003-12-23
**With respect to whether being burned out can be Healed, the AS who were burned out when Rand was freed were Healed by Flinn.**
They were stilled, not burned out.
Callandor: 2003-12-23
**By definition,then, the AS at Dumai's Wells were burned out, because they were severed accidentally, not as a result of trial and sentence.**
You are really missing the point with this. Accidently stilling yourself would be like losing the Power when you are channeling a lot of it: Classic "Oops! Look what I did now."
Rand didn't do ANYTHING like this. The Aes Sedai that held him and had him shielded were judged in his eyes and he delt with it: He crushed their hold on saidar and stilled them.
Tamyrlin: 2003-12-23
You have pointed out the inconsistency in the definition, but not that there isn't a difference between the two. Here is the quote I was looking for.
TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 23 - The Testing
"It isn't thought necessary to give a warning, since you shouldn't be able to remember it, but . . . . This ter'angreal was found during the Trolloc Wars. We have the records of its examination in the archives. The first sister to enter was warded as strongly as she could be, since no one knew what it would do. She kept her memories, and she channeled the one Power when she was threatened. And she came out with her abilities burned to nothing, unable to channel, unable even to sense the True Source. The second to go in was also warded, and she, too, was destroyed in the same way. The third went unprotected, remembered nothing once she was inside, and returned unharmed. That is one reason why we send you completely unprotected. Nynaeve, you must not channel inside the ter'angreal again. I know it is hard to remember anything, but try."
This woman was not even able to "sense" the one power, which is different from someone who is stilled. The obvious reason that the these words have been used in conjunction has to do with their affects. They remove the ability to channel, and to Aes Sedai, that is final, no matter if you can sense or not sense the one power, you are still cut off forever (at least before Nynaeve fixed things a bit). As the glossary says, "A woman who has been stilled can sense but not touch the True Source." They are different, a difference that deals with what has happened to the connection between the person, the soul, and the one power. In stilling, the connection between one power and soul still exists, but the person cannot access the power that they can feel until the bridge is fixed, as Nynaeve and Flinn have done. When someone is burned out, their connection between the soul and one power is destroyed, which is why they can't sense the one power at all. I don't believe this connection can be fixed as easily; burned out connotates much more damage than a stilling does, which is to cut the connection.
Frenzy: 2003-12-26
I doubt Setalle is Martine.
Crown of Swords CHAPTER: 23 - Next Door to a Weaver: "Your name is Garenia?" Mistress Anan said slowly, frowning at the woman in question. "You look very much like someone I met once. Zarya Alkaese."
Crown of Swords CHAPTER: 23 - Next Door to a Weaver: "Setalle!" Garenia exclaimed as soon as the innkeeper was gone. "That was Setalle Anan? How did she—? Light of Heaven! Even after seventy years, the Tower would—
Crown of Swords CHAPTER: 23 - Next Door to a Weaver: "I still want to know who this Setalle Anan is," Garenia put in.
Crown of Swords CHAPTER: 24 - The Kin: Garenia was not done; she always skirted the edges of discipline, and frequently stepped over. "What of this Setalle Anan, then? Those girls know about the Circle. The Anan woman, must have told them, though how she knows...." She shuddered in a way that would have been entirely too ostentatious for most others, but she had never been able to conceal her emotions. Even when she should. "Whoever betrayed us to her must be found, and her betrayal punished too. She's an innkeeper, and she must be taught to guard her tongue!"
"Remember who she is, Garenia," Reanne said sharply. "If Setalle had betrayed us, we would be crawling to Tar Valon, begging forgiveness the whole way." When she first came to Ebou Dar, she had been told the story of a woman made to crawl to the White Tower, and nothing she had seen since of Aes Sedai made her question it in the least. "She has kept the few secrets she knows from gratitude, and I doubt that has faded. She would have died in her first childbirth if the Kin had not helped her. What she knows comes from careless tongues, when it was thought she could not hear, and the owners of those tongues were punished more than twenty years ago."
(these are in chronological order)
Setalle Anan has multiple grown children, i doubt her first was only 20 years ago. The loose tongues were silenced 20 years ago, Setalle's first child wasn't birthed then. She's been in Ebou Dar a lot longer than 25 years, which eliminates the possibility of her being Martine.
Going by what Reanne said, there is little doubt that Setalle used to be Aes Sedai.
As for the difference between stilling and being burned out, i believe there IS a difference, beyond semantics. Someone who is stilled/gentled/severed can still sense the True Source, but are unable to touch it. Someone who is burned out cannot even sense the Source, let alone touch it. To use the same terminology, being severed is having the ability cut off. Being burned out is having the ability cut off and cauterized. Nynaeve sensed something cut in Logain when she Healed him, and used that cut point to repair the cut. In someone burned out, there is nothing for the Healing weaves to attach to.
Back to Setalle, many think that she is the one who is no longer.
Lord of Chaos CHAPTER: 19 - Matters of Toh: "There is one other I can tell you, though it may not concern you." Which meant there were some she would not tell, which made him wonder why the Wise Ones had discussed them with her, since she was not a dreamwalker. "All three had this dream, which makes it especially significant. Rain," that word still came clumsily too, "coming from a bowl. There are snares and pitfalls around the bowl. If the right hands pick it up, they will find a treasure perhaps as great as the bowl. If the wrong hands, the world is doomed. The key to finding the bowl is to find the one who is no longer."
Nynaeve and Elayne didn't find the Bowl until they found the Kin, and they didn't find the Kin until they found Setalle Anan. She obviously is one who is no longer Aes Sedai. Some speculate that there's more to it, but i think that's idle speculation.
more stuff of interest regarding Garenia:
Path of Daggers CHAPTER: 28 - Crimsonthorn: "I'm bringing this to you because Nynaeve is busy," the Brown sister told Elayne. She meant that Nynaeve was enjoying a little time alone with Lan somewhere, but for once, not so much as a hint of a smile crossed her lips. "Be quiet, child!" she snapped at Garenia. Who promptly went silent. Adeleas gave a satisfied nod. "This is not Garenia Rosoinde," she said. "I finally recognized her. Zarya Alkaese, a novice who ran away just before Vandene and I decided to retire and write our history of the world. She admitted it, when I confronted her.
Winter's Heart CHAPTER: 8 - The Sea Folk and Kin: Most novices came to the Tower at fifteen or sixteen, and until recently, none over eighteen, except for a handful who had managed to carry off a lie. Unlike Aes Sedai, the Kin used age to set their hierarchy, and Zarya-she had been calling herself Garenia Rosoinde, but Zarya Alkaese was the name in the novice books, and Zarya Alkaese she would answer to-Zarya, with her strong nose and wide mouth, was more than ninety years old, though she appeared well short of her middle years. Neither woman had the agelessness despite their years of using the Power, and pretty, black-eyed Kirstian looked a little older, perhaps thirty or so. She was over three hundred, older than Vandene herself, Elayne was sure. Kirstian had been gone from the Tower so long that she had felt safe using her true name again, or part of it. Not at all the usual run of novices.
Winter's Heart CHAPTER: 8 - The Sea Folk and Kin: "I did teach novices for a time," she (Vandedn)said. "A short time. The Mistress of Novices thought I was too hard on my students." The pair's eagerness cooled a bit. "Her name was Sereille Bagand." Zarya's face went as pale as Kirstian's, and Kirstian swayed as if suddenly dizzy. As Mistress of Novices and later Amyrlin Seat, Sereille was a legend. The sort of legend that made you wake in the middle of the night sweating.
Sereille was Amyrlin from 866-890 NE, well over 100 years ago.
Deadsy: 2003-12-27
Do you have a quote that supports that she's been there a lot longer than 25 years?
Her oldest daughter is Marah, and she's described as "A pleasingly plump young woman with big pretty eyes the same hazel shade as her mother's." I don't know if she has an older son though. If she doesn't.. then Marah is her oldest child and in her lower 20s IMO. Mat also describes her as several years younger than Caira.
mako0424: 2003-12-28
So can Setalle Anan possibly be this Seireille, a stilled or deposed Amyrlin, and what effect does it have if she to is restored to full power.
But i definitly think she is the "one who is no longer".
Zaela Sedai: 2003-12-29
We've talked about this in other theories and the dates just don't add up for Setalle to be a deposed Amrylin, unless of course it is something that the WT has been covering up for years. I always thought she may have been a keeper or someone important in the Hall. It seems unlikely that the tower could successfully cover up deposing an amyrlin, hiding from even AS. But the other two are possible. In any case she, in my eyes was definately AS and an important one at that.
Dorindha: 2004-01-02
Just throwing this in for info. There is definitely a difference between Setalle and any other non-channeller, as it has been suggested that there isn't. In FoH, Elayne tries a genuine Seanchan a'dam on Cerandin, the s'redit handler in Luca's menagerie - it has no effect. Nor does it caause pain to either party.
Deadsy: 2004-01-03
That isn't the same thing though. She put the collar on Cerandin. There is never any effect when you put the collar on a non channeler. It's when you put a bracelet on them when a channeler is in the collar.
Elder Haman: 2004-01-07
How many times does this subject have to come up? It's quite clear that Setalle Anan is the Brown who became burned out while studing ter'angreal. Vandane tells Elayne about her to disuade Elayne from studing ter'angreal. I can't recall her name of hand- but she fits into the peferct time frame, was burned out, not stilled (so the different reaction to the adam), and explains how she survived. (She just disappeared from the tower after her accident). You can find it in the books at the point where Eyane and Nynaeve travel to the Kin farm, leaving Mat behind to look for Oliver.
rubbernilly: 2004-01-08
Besides the excellent evidence that has been presented here so far that separates stilling from burning out, there is also the BWB, which says definitively that the common mis-usage and substitution of one term for the other is a "deplorable loss of precision."
Here is the quote, BWB, page 22:
For women, the intentional removal of the ability to channel is called "stilling." If the ability is lost by accident the process is called being "burned out," though the term "stilling" is sometimes used for this also, a deplorable loss of precision in speech since the Olt Tongue fell out of use. In any case, the results of being stilled or burned out are much the same. The stilled woman, like the man who has been gentled, is cut off from the True Source, always tantalized by the sense of saidar, yet unable to touch or channel it. The woman who is burned out can neither channel nor sense the Power. Stilling is usually done as punishment for a crime, while burnout occurs through overload or misuse of the power, or is the result of losing to an attack by a greater power while channeling. It is assumed that men are susceptible to burnout as well."
That is the quote, differentiating between the two modes of losing power.
Incidentally, that last bit about "losing to a greater power while channeling" speaks to me of the Dumai's Wells Aes Sedai: they lost out to Rand while they tried to hold his shield, and they were burned out for it. The AS then who speak of them are guilty of the "deplorable loss of precision" in calling them "stilled."
Well, in their defense, the burned out Dumai's Wells AS may very well be referred to as "stilled," though the method of getting their was that they were burned out.
Deadsy: 2004-01-08
It would be interesting if that's the case rubber, because then Setalle could be healed, since those AS were. That could bring about some cool stuff. Like Tuon having a better reason than "I can channel too" for not disliking channelers anymore.
Unicorn: 2004-01-10
I have an idea that stilling and burning out are both a block, sort of like the ones wilders have. When stilled the block is imposed by others. While when burned out your own body/mind imposes the block as a sort of safety mechanism. Thus Stilling can be healed, but burned out must be cured(by therary, like Theodrin/Nynaeve). I think the difference between healing and curing is as hairfine as the difference between stilling and burning out. Following this line stilling could be more complete than burning out.
More dirctly to the point of the theory, I do not believe Setalle Anan is an ex-Amyrlin. I believe it is in the beginning of TGH, that stilling/burned out is explaned to Egwene(and us), and in conjunction with that it is mentioned that burned out women are left to them selves(no one can face the thought of etc.), but a stilled Amyrlin is not someone you let go, she knows too much, and then there is a mention of the red, who tried to control Artur Hawkwing(don't recall the name), who vas demoted to scullery maid.
I essence I belive Setalle Anan to be burned out and not stilled(stilling as punishment has not occurred more than a dozen times since the breaking and every novice is required to learn all of them, from the same place in TGH, so it is pre Siuan and Leane). Whether she is Martine or not remains to be seen I am not convinced of that yet, she seems too matter of fact to ever have been a Brown.
Elder Haman: 2004-01-11
While Nynaeve is figuring out how to heal Logain, she comments that Suian and Leanne both have something "cut" that prevents them from channeling. While Logain just has a "hole" The Nynaeve discovers within this "hole" the same "cut" feeling and succeeds in healing Logain.
I seem to remember as Nynaeve is doing this she keeps her self irritated by thinking about the yellows and there contempt for her study of stilled women- I seem to remember that the yellows identified the the "cut" sensation as a result of stilling but that burnt out Aes Sedai simply had an "emptyness" This suggests to me that those burnt out can not be healed.
danger: 2004-07-14
I didn't do a lot of research on this so I don't know if the years add up, but in the HC addition of CoT Meidani muses to herself that "most sisters still believed Tamra Ospenya had died in her bed. She had believed it." Is it possible that Setalle Anan is the stilled Amyrlin Tamra? I'm sure the Tower would want to keep her secret if she were still around.
: 2004-07-14
I didn't do a lot of research on this so I don't know if the years add up, but in the HC addition of CoT Meidani muses to herself that "most sisters still believed Tamra Ospenya had died in her bed. She had believed it." Is it possible that Setalle Anan is the stilled Amyrlin Tamra? I'm sure the Tower would want to keep her secret if she were still around.
Cha Faile: 2004-12-04
Despite the fact that this theory is about Setalle Anan, it seems to have developed into a debate about stilling/burning out. So, here are my thoughts:
Stilling occurs when SOMEONE ELSE cuts YOU from the One power but burning out is when you SEVER IT YOURSELF. Their EFFECT is no different but the context in which they are used is...
If you look through the books, every time an Aes Sedai refers to being burnt out it was self-inflicted. For example, at Dumai Wells, (most people think that the sisters are burnt out) but the word used is STILLED.
If you think about it, you cant BURN SOMEONE OUT, the context just isn't right.And you cant still yourself.
Any thoughts...?
Tamyrlin: 2004-12-04
Cha Faile, as the BWB and other quotes prove, there is a significant difference between burning out and being stilled. The most obvious "effect" difference is the ability to sense the OP. Stilled women can sense it, burned out women cannot. However, the BWB quoted in previous responses is explicit.
UberAshaman: 2004-12-04
I've always thought of stilling and burning out as the same yet slightly different.
I've thought thet stilling/gentling is more controlled, and like slicing the ability to channel, or link to OP, so it would essentially be:
Person - link - CUT - link - OP
But burning out is different. It's like the entire link being destroyed, so:
Person - NOTHING - NOTHING - OP
Healing stilling is just repairing the link or, let's say, putting on link back into a chain. But burning out, the whole link is destroyed, so the healer would have to build a whole new chain. Most people would be like this so i don't think it is healable. If it was, then you could 'make' channellers. Pretty absurd, huh?
Just my two cents
Aiel Finn: 2004-12-04
One thing about the "stilled" sisters from Dumai Wells. When Rand stilled them, he didn't use a sharp blade of Spirit like we have seen described elsewhere, he used "fists" of spirit to crush the "soft points" that were the sisters holding his shield. This may why they were burned out instead of sitlled.
mako0424: 2004-12-04
Two things, i would imagine that although there are similarities between being burned out and stilling, the huge difference is the cleanliness, purpose, and result.
Burned out people cannot sense the Source and are described as "empty". i would equate being burned out to having a piece of string and the piece of string burst into flame from over-use (work with me). The String cannot be fixed.
Stilled women, their String is specifically, intentionally cut. This allows them to still know the string is there (ie. sense the source) and allows for potential Healing.
Finally, danger, i do not think Setalle Anan is Tamra ospenya, because Tamra was still killed by Black ajah. The quote you used was simply implying that everyone still thought that Tamra had died naturally and peacefully, when really she was tortured and killed.
I think Setalle Anan is the Aes Sedai who burned herself out when studying ter'angreal. She will have very valuable knowledge later on, lets say about certain ter'angreal or sa'angreal (ie. knife of dreams, bowl of winds, callandor).
TheJester: 2004-12-05
I was thinking this over rather a lot, and appologies as I am new here.
1. Setalle Anan probably is a burnt-out Aes Sedai. I believe it is highly likely she is the sister that was burt out studying ter'angreal, this would tie in to the Dream the Wise Ones had.
They said **Rain," that word still came clumsily too, "coming from a bowl. There are snares and pitfalls around the bowl. If the right hands pick it up, they will find a treasure perhaps as great as the bowl. If the wrong hands, the world is doomed. The key to finding the bowl is to find the one who is no longer."**
The way the paragraph is structured means that the treasure as important as the bowl may be with the bowl or it may be on the path that leads to the bowl.
I was then reading and I realised that the next book will be called Kife of Dreams, if this in fact an artifact and probably a ter'angreal could the Marridge Knife that Setalle wears be it?
Could it also be the ter'angreal she was studying in the tower (if she was Aes Sedai), if it is powerful and for some reason she believes that it has to be kept from other Aes Sedai (Black Ajah?) she would have taken it with her. She would also have been able to cover her tracks and pretend that she could not remember as she is now freed of the Three Oaths and no one would really question too closely.
scion2: 2004-12-05
Spearmaiden: "On the other hand, when Setalle put on the bracelet, the AS wearing the leash screamed in pain."
That caught my eye. WHy would that happen. The only time I remember hearing about a reaction like that from suldam is when we heard about men putting the braclets on. I don't have the books on me, but that would be interesting to look at.
Gardener: 2004-12-05
Well I was just thinking about the stilling/ burning out thing.
Well, In my opinion stilling is just basically "stifling" the use of the power. We already know that the power can be brought back from being stilled but nothing about a burned out channeler being sorta repaired.
This is how I look at channeling.
Source ---------------- O channeler
now the power is continually being fed into the "O" which is the capacity of the channelers ability to channel. now when they are stilled it looks like this.
Source --------| |------ O Channeler
so now either theres a block between the source and the channeler or the bridge between the two is broken, and now we already know that AS are able to "repair" this bridge so that the channeler can channel again. But when the channeler is burned out it looks like this.
Source ----------------- (xx) Channeler
so now the kind of "tank" that is basically the channeler's mind which holds the source is sort of broken but the power is still there, maybe the channeler can't use it but some of the effects are there. That would explain why the A'dam reacted to Setalle Anan.
Another thing is that it is VERY likely that she was a burned out/stilled AS.
One thing to notice is the time line.
16-25 years- Martine Janata spends becoming an AS
40 years- Martine spends time researching, before she burns out.
5 years- away from tower, before she gets pregnant and meets the Kin.
20 years- she spends with the Kin until the current date.
total= 18 to 25+40+20 = 76-85 years
So I'm estimating that she's most likely 85 years old, maybe more, and that she was Martine Janata.
But this is a little guess... yeah.
Aiel Finn: 2004-12-06
One thing that must be remembered with "official" Sanchean a'dams is that they require a _Sul'dam_ to allow the channeler to move without pain. If the AS who was on the a'dam tried to move and Setalle couldn't channel at all (possibly burned out) she probably just activated that aspect.
One other thought is that Setalle Anan, former Aes Sedai, is rather unhappy about this Aes Sedai who got herself in trouble and is subconcously thinking about hurting her. She puts on the a'dam and *poof* dreams become reality. :P
Githraine: 2004-12-07
I think the thing to remember with the A'dam is 1. Joline was not in pain until she took a second step, and 2. with comparisons to Moggy's A'Dam and Siuan that was a diffrent A'Dam that allowed Moggy to move even if no one wore the bracelet. The diffrence here is that Siuan did 'feel' Moggy.
As to healing only stilling, Flinn healed the sisters that Rand Stilled at the wells, so either they were stilled just as Tower Justice would do or 'burning out' can be healed as well. (there seemed to be some confusion as to which they had suffered.)
Cha Faile: 2004-12-15
On the subject of who Setalle Anan is,i found a quote (not used before in this theory ,i think) that could support the Setalle is a stilled/burnt out Aes Sedai:
Book:The Fires of Heaven
Chapter: The Practice of Diffidence
Page:413
"Light, they might even marry us off! Some thought that a husband and children could occupy a woman enough to replace the One Power in her life. More than one woman, stilled by drawing too much of saidar to herself, or in testing ter-angreal for their uses, had found herself being matched with potential husbands. Since those who did marry always put as much distance as possible between themselves and the Tower and it's memories, the thoery remains unproved."
This could help to support this theory because, it was quite a random thought that didn't really fit with the context. There is a bit too much detail in that paragraph for it to be irrelevant.
P.S- however, this contradicts my last post about stilling/burning out so i apologize.("..more than one woman has stilled herself..")