1
Tamyrlin: 2004-01-02
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
i've heard this theory before. Can't say i agree with it, but it fits into the Balance thing Jordan seems to strive for. Then again, so does having the True Power being the balancing power against the One Power. The Creator set up the Wheel to weave the Pattern, and the One Power to drive the Wheel. i'm inclined to discount any Creator-based Power because of this.
2
Cor Shan: 2004-01-03
And the Creator's power is the False Power?????
Nope. Also
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and will use this to defeat the enemies of humanity and seal the Dark One up with a Seal wrought from a Power no Darkfriend, Forsaken or other evil creature will ever dare touch - or even be able to access, without the Creator's permission
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Cyclonic Time. Meirin has to be able to punch a hole through the seals in the 9th age. ;)
3
Callandor: 2004-01-05
** TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 12 - Across the Taren
"The One Power," Moiraine was saying, "comes from the True Source, the driving force of Creation, the force the Creator made to turn the Wheel of Time." She put her hands together in front of her and pushed them against each other. "Saidin, the male half of the True Source, and saidar, the female half, work against each other and at the same time together to provide that force. Saidin" - she lifted one hand, then let it drop -"is fouled by the touch of the Dark One, like water with a thin slick of rancid oil floating on top. The water is still pure, but it cannot be touched without touching the foulness. Only saidar is still safe to be used." Egwene's back was to Rand. He could not see her face, but she was leaning forward eagerly.**
As I have said many a time before, the True Source, saidin and saidar, are the "Creator's" Power since he created it.
4
Korell: 2004-01-05
Meirin was good to start off with thefore there is no reason for that to matter at least in the manner stated above however here is my opinion
I do not agree with this theory however if i did and this were true the Creator even though he would have his own essence would not let anyone touch it based on that it may be to active a role to partake in the lives of humanity he has supplied them already with what they need to win e.g. The OP and The Dragon these are what is needed to defeat the DO
the OP is open to everyone who can weild it to weild it weather they are good or bad the Creator allows all who can use it access to it you might ask why does he allow even bad people to use it and i would answer that he wants people to have free will they have a choice not to do evil with their power or not to do good with it. it comes down to the creator allowing free will thefore his power we haave in essence already seen the OP is the creators power he just allows everyone to choose how they use it
5
rubbernilly: 2004-01-08
I feel like a philosopher when it comes to points like this, because nothing can be proven.
Therefore, here is unadulterated opinion:
I think that the True Source (saidin/saidar) is the prismatic interpretation of this reality based on this creation. That is, the True Source comes from the Creator that is filtered through the number of genders he created. There are two, and so there are two perceived halves to the OP. Whether the number of genders was dictated by the natural division of the OP or the other way around, that is the situation that we see.
The TP, being from the DO, is antithetical to this creation. Along this vein of philosophical thought what I mean to say is that the TP is either:
1) not suited for 2 genders
2) not suited for these 2 genders
3) is too unlike any gender that would have been created in a creation made by the Creator - be that man, woman, beoman, dwomar, huri, torren... or any other nonsensical set of letters I could come up with.
Its destructive nature comes from its unlike-ness to the genders of man and woman. It can be used, but at a price.
I believe that if the DO could break free, he would remake the world. We know this is what he wants, based on what he has told his followers. What they do not realize, I think, is that this creation - and thereby, time itself - must stop. Must die. Then the Creator and the DO would be equal again - existing in a formless/timeless expanse that we would find hard to understand, let alone describe.
However one might determine "first-ness" in such a time-devoid place, whomever among the two of them that could get a new creation in place (the Creator using the OP, the DO using the TP) would then imprison the other. The tapestry of the pattern is the prison, and though it may not be a prison of restraint generally, it is a retraint from the other having the ability to create or to dabble in this level of reality.
Too esoteric?
My ultimate point is that were the DO able to break free and remake the world (and time), such a remaking would be done with the TP. In that case, the number of genders would be matched to whatever interpretation of the TP was available. Perhaps the DO would choose 3, or 4 genders, or just 1. Perhaps the number would be driven by a natural division in the TP, and perhaps the opposite would be true - that the interpretation of the TP as having 'X' number of facets would be driven by the number of genders the DO created. Perhaps this would match the determination of genders under the OP, and perhaps not.
In this world, created by the TP, I suspect that the TP could be channeled freely by those capable, and the OP would be usable only by those found worthy by the imprisoned Creator. Such use of the OP, being unsuited for these genders in this world, would be as destructive as the TP is in Randland.
Everyone still with me after that little jaunt through the outer reaches of magical mechanics?
6
Frenzy: 2004-01-08
hehe, rubbernilly: you should join this faction: http://www.theoryland.com/factions.php?func=4&rec=58 (The DO will NOT destroy the Pattern)
7
rubbernilly: 2004-01-08
Hmm... I'm agreeing with the faction's creed, except for that I think that the DO *will* destroy the Pattern before he can recreate his own.
I think that he *has* to destroy the present one to make room for his (making the people that serve him fools).
8
DragonsShield: 2004-07-17
when reading this it came across me that there is balance between the True Source and the True Power! Of all of the women who can channel, only about 50-100 or more are darkfriends, and of the males there are less because only recently are there numerous numbers of them, the number is growing because of Taim. even though there ar so many darkfriends who can channel even in the Age of Legends, only a few if any people could channel the True Power other than the Forsaken. Now only the Nea'blis Moridan can channel it. So here are the odds:
Darkrfriends- 200 Max true Source
1 true Power
Good Guys- about 900 women and about the same and probably more huys channeling the true source
0 channeling the true power
so in my eyes, there is sort of a balance, if weak on the dark side but if you look into the future, at the last battle, the DO will be there.
9
Zepher: 2005-07-23
I believe that the True Source/ Power is how Ishy ended up with the caverns of flame for eyes and mouth to begin with. And I agree that Rand will end up useing the Creators version of the True Source cause LTT used it in the prologe of EOTW.
10
Anubis: 2005-07-23
**I believe that the True Source/ Power is how Ishy ended up with the caverns of flame for eyes and mouth to begin with. And I agree that Rand will end up useing the Creators version of the True Source cause LTT used it in the prologe of EOTW.**
Yes, RJ said the caverns of fire were an advanced form of the Saa. No, LTT did not use the "creators form of the one power", he used Saidin, in large quantities. And while it is possible that Rand may somehow use Saidin and Saidir as one, using the True Source and not the One Power, it is far more likely that he will use something similar in nature to the Cleansing.
11
Callandor: 2005-07-24
**And while it is possible that Rand may somehow use Saidin and Saidir as one, using the True Source and not the One Power, it is far more likely that he will use something similar in nature to the Cleansing.**
One cannot put saidin and saidar together. It's simply impossible. Saidin and saidar do not mix.
**TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 35 - With the Choedan Kal
"Drawing on saidin, fighting it, mastering it in the deadly dance he knew so well, he forced it into the flowery weave of saidar. And it flowed through. Saidin and saidar, like and unlike, could not mix. The flow of saidin squeezed in on itself, away from the surrounding saidar, and the saidar pushed it from all sides, compressing it further, making it flow faster. Pure saidin, pure except for the taint, touched Shadar Logoth."
One person can access both in a link (like Rand did at the Cleansing), but they will never be "one Power;" they will always be seperate.
12
Traveller: 2005-07-24
WHY DOES EVERYONE (ok, just some people; but let me have my little rave) THINK THAT THERE HAS TO BE ANOTHER SOURCE FROM THE CREATOR TO BALANCE THE TRUE SOURCE FROM THE DARK ONE? IT IS CALLED THE ONE POWER!!!!!! IT IS MADE UP OF SAIDIN AND SAIDAR!!!! Phew, I feel better now.
13
Traveller: 2005-07-24
Oooh! I just had a brainwave:
In response to Aeolus' theory that the True Source is the essence of the Dark One, it would follow on with the whole balance thing that the One Power is the essence of the Creator!
That would explain why the black cord (representing the TP) fights against the white Cord (saidin) at the Eye of the World!
14
Yaga Shura: 2005-07-24
"WHY DOES EVERYONE (ok, just some people; but let me have my little rave) THINK THAT THERE HAS TO BE ANOTHER SOURCE FROM THE CREATOR TO BALANCE THE TRUE SOURCE FROM THE DARK ONE? IT IS CALLED THE ONE POWER!!!!!! IT IS MADE UP OF SAIDIN AND SAIDAR!!!! "
Because both the followers of the Light and the followers of the Shadow use the OP. Balance is a persistant theme in the WoT (saidin vs. saidar; Creater vs. DO etc.) yet the extremely powerful TP is as yet unbalanced.
The OP cannot be the Creator's power in the same way that the TP is the Dark One's power becasue the Creator doesn't decide who gets to channel.
In addition, the OP drives the Wheel, and the Wheel in forming the Pattern is the essence of balance. Why would something orientated towards the Light work to cause balance at all times?
15
Anubis: 2005-07-25
**One cannot put saidin and saidar together. It's simply impossible. Saidin and saidar do not mix.**
of course they cant, but the creator obviously uses both as one.
16
Callandor: 2005-07-25
**of course they cant, but the creator obviously uses both as one.**
Uh, how is this obvious at all since we've never seen the Creator nor do we know what he uses if anything?
**The OP cannot be the Creator's power in the same way that the TP is the Dark One's power becasue the Creator doesn't decide who gets to channel.**
I never see why people discount the One Power as the Creators power because it can be used by anyone Shadow or not. I'm sorry, but there's two Powers mentioned. Two Powers hinted at throughout the series. There are only references to two Powers in the entire series. One Power balanced against another Power.
Where's the difficulty?
17
Yaga Shura: 2005-07-25
"of course they cant, but the creator obviously uses both as one. "
He does? Can you prove that?
18
StylZ905: 2005-07-26
Is it so hard to believe that Rand might come to be able to access the True Source? Whether its a matter of gaining access by circumventing the division of male/female (i'm not presuming to know how) or even by controlling both halves through a circle (eg. Rand & Nynaeve in WH) it is still possible. If two halves make a whole, 1 person controlling both halves, by virtue of its nature, controls the whole. ( and we all know control can be passed to a man once a circle is made)
19
Yaga Shura: 2005-07-26
"Is it so hard to believe that Rand might come to be able to access the True Source? Whether its a matter of gaining access by circumventing the division of male/female (i'm not presuming to know how) or even by controlling both halves through a circle (eg. Rand & Nynaeve in WH) it is still possible. If two halves make a whole, 1 person controlling both halves, by virtue of its nature, controls the whole. ( and we all know control can be passed to a man once a circle is made)"
Sure, Rand can get control over saidar, he did it at the Cleansing. So could Ishamael, which is the reason why I don't think the OP balances the TP.
20
Callandor: 2005-07-26
**Is it so hard to believe that Rand might come to be able to access the True Source?**
Yes, because no such thing exists or is even hinted at.
**Whether its a matter of gaining access by circumventing the division of male/female (i'm not presuming to know how) or even by controlling both halves through a circle (eg. Rand & Nynaeve in WH) it is still possible.**
Once again, in the quote I gave it's spelled out simply: saidin and saidar cannot mix.
And Rand used saidin and saidar in a link before, as you said at the Cleansing. This was not a mystical "True Source;" -- it was just him using both saidin and saidar seperately, but at the same time.
**If two halves make a whole, 1 person controlling both halves, by virtue of its nature, controls the whole.**
They control both halves -- there is no whole.
21
StylZ905: 2005-07-26
They may not mix, but they can certainly be used in unison. Both halves make up the True SOurce, and if you think the True Source doesn't exist, we might be reading different books my friend. Using both in unison is the same difference as using the true source. I think what we're finding difficult to grasp is just somantics
22
Callandor: 2005-07-27
**Using both in unison is the same difference as using the true source.**
No, it is not (I slipped on the True Source thing; chalk it up to exhaustion). A man uses saidin. A woman uses saidar. Either can use both seperately in a link at the same time; however, just because they have access to both saidin and saidar does not mean they are channeling the "True Source." True Source is a reference in general to both saidin and saidar working together and against each other.
You seem to be shaping this as if a man and a woman link, they can somehow utilize another Power. Doesn't work that way, and never will. A man can use saidar if he's in a link with a woman. A woman can use saidin if she's in a link with a man. Neither of them can use the "True Power" in the sense that you are saying.
23
ilgross: 2005-07-28
Maybe mixing the two, will be one of the nine impossible things that Rand does.
24
Callandor: 2005-07-28
**Maybe mixing the two, will be one of the nine impossible things that Rand does.**
Once again -- saidin and saidar do not mix. They simply cannot because of what they are: attraction and repulsion at the same time. This is the backbone of how the Cleansing worked.
25
JakOShadows: 2005-07-29
ilgross: It is possible but it seems like powers only the creator can have there. And as for another TP, what if when the seals are broken, that allows Rand to use the true source through the DO. It would be interesting if it did happen, because it would be like killing the DO with his own weapon. We'll just have to rafo how possible it is.
