evering, wilders, being turned to the Shadow, Warders, sul'dam, et cetera
by Aelfinn: 2004-01-01 | Not yet rated
Okay, I'm going to try to fit all the things in the title into here. Have patience with me; this is going to be interesting.
We know that chanellers can be turned to the Shadow (henceforth known as Turned) against their will.
We know that chanellers can be severed (stilled, gentled) and can sense the OP but not touch it.
We know that sul'dam can channel--the a'dam creates a linking between sul'dam and damane.
We know that being severed breaks the Warder-bond, and releases one from the Oath Rod (if it was sworn on).
We know that wilders are people who have the spark in them and have learned a rough sort of control on their own.
We know that 2-3% can channel, with most simply not channeling unless they learn.
We know that Warders are linked to their Aes Sedai.
We know that when the AS is killed/stilled, the Warder goes -- wacko. Just wacko.
We know that Warders and AS have a bond letting them know the other's direction and distance, emotional/physical condition, and so on.
Now this is where it gets interesting.
Hypothesis #1: If you try severing a person who could learn to channel but hasn't yet, it will work. That ex-might-have-been-channeler probably won't go all depressive on you because they HAVEN'T touched the Source yet.
Hypothesis #2: If you severed a sul'dam, the sul'dam WOULD get all depressive; even if they haven't channeled on their own, they still know a bit of what they're missing.
Hypothesis #3: If you Turned an AS, her Warder would go REALLY wacko on you; maybe dying, maybe going killing-spree, and maybe being Turned as well -- black Aes Sedai, black Warder.
Hypothesis #4: If you severed a Turned channeler, they would still be Turned, even if they're useless. However...
Hypothesis #5: If a Turned channeler was BURNT OUT, then they wouldn't be Turned any more. One severed can still sense the Source, but one burnt out might never have been able to channel; they only get depressive because they HAVE channeled, like any normal human being would be like after being paralysed, blinded, deafened, in one single day.
Hypothesis #6: However, a burnt out Turned channeler's Warder would -- if Turned as well -- still be Turned. BUT---- he'd probably be dead or crazy from shock of losing his Aes Sedai.
Hypothesis #7: Someone who's never channeled but could learn to channel, could be Turned as well as severed.
Hypothesis #8: If a sul'dam bonded a Warder through the damane, the poor guy would be bonded to both of them.
Hypothesis #9: If a channeler--already having a Warder--bonded another channeler who--as well as having a Warder(s)--had bonded a sul'dam attatched to a damane, all of them would go completely insane. Why? It's simple: each of the channelers (including sul'dam) would be in each other's minds, and their individual Warder/damane. That makes, for any non-sul'dam channeler, at least four others living in your head. 2 other channelers, 1 damane, and their own Warder.
Hypothesis #10: If, using the above example, the first channeler was Turned or severed, all of the others--right down to Warders and damane--would suffer the effects described in #3.
Hypothesis #11: I've used the word "hypothesis" too many times in writing this.
Personally, I'll be surprised if somebody agrees with me on any more than two points: one random one, and #11.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2004-01-11
If an Aes Sedai is turned, will her Warder be turned along with her? This is an interesting question, but I don't think we can answer it because we lack precedence. However, we can surely speculate. :) I would say no. The Warder might feel what is going on, but I don't believe that good and evil are that instantaneous. The severing affects the Warder because it leaves an "open" wound, but turning wouldn't necessarily sever anything. However, the Warder could be controlled by the Aes Sedai...Fun ideas.
2
rubbernilly: 2004-01-11
I don't agree with #8... seeing the warder bond when Elayne, Avi, and Min bonded Rand, I would say that the weave that created the "similarity" would have to be laid over both the suldam and the damane in order for them both to be involved.
I don't think being in an involuntary link - or even a voluntary link - is enough.
3
Callandor: 2004-01-11
**We know that when the AS is killed/stilled, the Warder goes -- wacko. Just wacko.**
Or drops dead on the spot.
**Hypothesis #1:"
This one I am not sure on. Does learning to channel not have a connection to the Source until you first channel? Or is there a link that is there, just unusable till then?
**Hypothesis #2:**
If they have developed the "affinity", they would, but if #1 holds true, then they wouldn't suffere the symptoms if they haven't got the "affinity".
**Hypothesis #3:**
Doubt it. The Warder would know or suspect that something weird is going on, but wouldn't be turned.
**Hypothesis #5:**
Turnning effects the person; not the channeling link. They would still be turned no matter what afterwards.
**Hypothesis #6:**
Again, the Warder wouldn't be turned in the first place.
**Hypothesis #7:**
If there is a connection to the Source for a person to learning to channel, yes. But if a learner first touching the Source is what makes the link, then no.
**Hypothesis #8:**
Well, 1. Sul'dam don't know how to Bond; and 2. yes, he would be as per Elayne, Avi, and Min in WH (excluding Min since she couldn't channel and had to have speical weaves for her).
**Hypothesis #9:**
Rand has 3 channelers, and a non-channeler in his head, along with a split personality that was already there. He, apart from being already technically insane, is fine. So, I don't think it would happen.
**Hypothesis #10:**
Again, and more so, really doubtful.
**Hypothesis #11**
Correct.
4
brigitta: 2004-01-12
I don't agree on the #1 and everything that is derived from it. why? well, because think of the male not-yet-channelers. We know that the insanity comes from the taint but if what you are suggesting is true then does it mean that the male would-be-channelers would go insane just the same even though they have never touched the Source? I don't think so. Jordan doesn't specify on whether the ability that can be learned has something to do with genetics or with a certain... for a lack of a better word- "affinity" or "acceptance", i.e. a state of mind not of the body or something else. If the second is the case then this state of mind should (IMO logically, because in order to understand something you have to be ready to understand it) have something in common with the Power thus creating a sort of a link that the person does not know about or isn't aware of. now, it has been said flat out that the men who do not touch the Source do not go crazy because they do not touch the taint (maybe I should be speaking in the past tense?) My opinion is that this "link" is directly to the Power (but not like Wilders have it, because these people are not born with the ability) and even if the person doesn't know about it, it is still there and if severed the person would feel a terrible loss, definately not as strong as wielders feel, but still.
also think of this: what would happen if the warder of a stilled AS were able to learn to uste the OP?
5
Zaela Sedai: 2004-01-12
#3
I don't think so, here's why,
TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 10 - A Plan Succeeds
What had sparked the decision to leave was the arrival of Eldrith's Kennit in the town, sure that she was a murderer, half convinced she was Black Ajah, and determined to kill her no matter the consequences to himself. Not surprisingly, she had been unwilling to face those consequences herself, and refused to let anyone kill the man. The only alternative was to flee. Then again, Eldrith was the one who had pointed out Caemlyn as their only hope.
This disproves that all BA with warders have black warders. It's definatly probable that there are Black warders with BA, but it is not automatic.
6
Khaos: 2004-01-12
First off I don't think that if a channeler is Turned that those they are bonded to would also be turned. Another question would be what level of control would the turned individual have over the bonded person. The books are inconclusive thus far, you have the example of Lan being forced to seek out Myrelle after Moiraine's "death" supposedly against his will, but at the same time Alanna does not seem to have had much success in forcing Rand to do anything with her bond.
As for if a sul'dam bonded a person using her damane I would say that if the weave was identical to that used by Aes sedai, the person would be bonded to the damane, but as has been shown this weave can be customised.
This does leave the interesting question of whether a channeler could bond 2 individuals without including themselves in the bond.
I do agree that you probably can sever an individual who can learn to channel but hasn't yet and they would probably experience no ill effects. As for sul'dam in this situation I think it depends, personally I think that what sul'dam refer to as an affinity for channeling is a gradual use of the power themselves. We are given the impression that not all sul'dam develop this affinity perhaps they are those who would have the weakest ability (like Morgase?). So if they had begun to channel unconciously they would feel the loss if they hadn't they wouldn't. It would of course limit there use as a sul'dam from that point on though.
7
dragonsceptor: 2004-01-12
I disagree with #3. We have already seen occasions of BA with non-DF warders. It is possible that an AS who was "turned" would have a different impact on the Warder but I have never seen anything that indicates an AS leaning toward light or dark has a direct impact on the warders leaning. I think it would make for a sticky situation certainly, but not forcing the Warder to go black.
8
Aelfinn: 2004-01-13
BTW, I still agree with #11. :)
Okay, but I think you're misunderstanding me on some part. I didn't say that all Black Ajah have darkfriend Warders.
I said that if an Aes Sedai was TURNED, her Warder would go wacko. Being sworn Black Ajah is considerably different from being Turned.
About how can-learn-to-channelers might be Turned:
This is all conjecture because we've never SEEN anyone Turned yet, just heard it mentioned. But I say it's the ABILITY TO CHANNEL that allows one to be Turned, not necessarily HAVING channeled.
Think of it this way. Someone who's channeled has kind of a "hole" inside them, because saidin/saidar exists outside of them and they need to access it. Someone who can channel but hasn't yet, lets say that instead of having a hole they have a weak spot in their wall.
My idea is that that "weak spot" can be opened from the outside, only with the 13/13.
That is what some of my ideas are based on.
Of course, it's just as sensible as the idea that only someone who has channeled before can be Turned.
If it's the **ability** to channel that allows one to be Turned, I say someone severed would be able to be Turned: it's like they have a permanent shield on them. Someone burnt out could never be.
I'm also assuming that being Turned is slightly like a bit of Compulsion; Morgase was obsessed to "Gaebril" while she was under Compulsion, but when she broke free, she wasn't.
The link to being Turned comes from outside. While the Dark One exists, Turned people will still be Turned; and, while they can sort of channel. Stilled people can't channel, but the "hole"'s still open. Being burnt out completely removes the Dark ONe's link.
Now, if somebody WHILE TURNED "decided" to be a Darkfriend, they would be, burnt out or not. That decision comes from inside.
This is all just guesses, like all the others. None of the situations have happened yet. Noone's been Turned yet and given us the description. Morgase didn't really THINK about Gaebril when Compulsed. A Turned one wouldn't really THINK about why their on the "dark side". Okay?
9
Callandor: 2004-01-13
**Think of it this way. Someone who's channeled has kind of a "hole" inside them, because saidin/saidar exists outside of them and they need to access it. Someone who can channel but hasn't yet, lets say that instead of having a hole they have a weak spot in their wall.**
So you are saying that a person who can learn to channel, must first touch the Source to be turned? Then, if they haven't, they won't be turned at all.
**TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 22 - The Price of The Ring
"He said they could turn him to the Shadow," Egwene mumbled. "He said the Myrddraal and the Dreadlords could force him."
"Can they?" Sheriam sighed, glanced at the other Aes Sedai again, then dropped her voice to a whisper and spoke swiftly. "This is something known only to a few, child, even in the Tower. You should not learn it now, if ever, but I will tell you. There is - a weakness in being able to channel. That we learn to open ourselves to the True Source means that we can be opened to other things." Egwene shuddered. "Calm yourself, child. It is not so easily done. It is a thing not done, so far as I know - Light send it has not been done! - since the Trolloc Wars. It took thirteen Dreadlords - Darkfriends who could channel - weaving the flows through thirteen Myrddraal. You see? Not easily done. There are no Dreadlords today. This is a secret of the Tower, child. If others knew, we could never convince them they were safe. Only one who can channel can be turned in this way. The weakness of our strength. Everyone else is as safe as a fortress; only their own deeds and will can turn them to the Shadow."**
**I'm also assuming that being Turned is slightly like a bit of Compulsion; Morgase was obsessed to "Gaebril" while she was under Compulsion, but when she broke free, she wasn't.**
No, it is not like Compulsion. Compulsion is instantly being under the total control of the person in control of the weave. Turning is forcing a person, against their will, to fully become a Darkfriend; they do not come back from it.
10
Great Lord of the Dark: 2004-01-16
Huh, so that's what it feels like to read one of my theories. I'm half shocked, half amused, half wanting to skip to the end. Oops. Too many halves, I must have had my turned Aes Sedai bonded by a sul'dam.
The Aes Sedai bonded by Logain's crew, and the threee Asha'man who were bonded by Cadsuane's crew may give a clue. The women can't tell if the source has been cleansed, even when they hold the saidin flows. If something that obvious can't be transmitted through the bond (really it's emotions and energy that can be transferred, not thoughts), then there's little chance a 'turning to the Shadow' or other form of brainwashing can affect the bonded person.
Birgitte-Elayne-Min-Aviendha-Rand-Alanna-Her Warders also seems to show that multiple partners (heh heh) has no ill effect. The bond can be fuzzed. Another reason to think no turning will pass through the bond. Note also that Alanna has failed to take on any of the mental instability plaguing Rand.
The taint affects Ran'd mind, and if his bondees haven't been affected, then there is proof that anything taht affects the mind, is not transmissible through the bond, other than the emotional states it induces. I mean traditional bond, Elayne-Birgitte was a botched weave.
11
heronblade: 2004-01-22
Why would the Warder 'know something was going on'? they can feel strong emotion but their not telepathic.
12
DragonsShield: 2004-07-18
I dont think that a sul'dam could bond a warder through a damane at all let alone be bonded to both of them. this is because, yes the Sul'dam contrlled the flows but the damane is still the person that is the person channeling and is the one the power is being used through so i think that the only one that the warder would be bonded to was the Damane yet the Sul'dam can control the warder through the damane because the damane controls the warder and the sul'dam controls the damane. Though i don't think that this would ever happen because all damane are used for is destruction and pretty lights in the sky.
13
Aelfinn: 2005-05-16
Finally responding a bit to this.
I now think that being burnt out wouldn't un-Turn someone; the Black Tower just gave me the idea. But it might "weaken" that bond, to the point where they COULD be un-Turned.
14
Aelfinn: 2005-10-25
Thanks to Callandor for this quote.
**TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 22 - The Price of The Ring
"He said they could turn him to the Shadow," Egwene mumbled. "He said the Myrddraal and the Dreadlords could force him."
"Can they?" Sheriam sighed, glanced at the other Aes Sedai again, then dropped her voice to a whisper and spoke swiftly. "This is something known only to a few, child, even in the Tower. You should not learn it now, if ever, but I will tell you. There is - a weakness in being able to channel. That we learn to open ourselves to the True Source means that we can be opened to other things." Egwene shuddered. "Calm yourself, child. It is not so easily done. It is a thing not done, so far as I know - Light send it has not been done! - since the Trolloc Wars. It took thirteen Dreadlords - Darkfriends who could channel - weaving the flows through thirteen Myrddraal. You see? Not easily done. There are no Dreadlords today. This is a secret of the Tower, child. If others knew, we could never convince them they were safe. Only one who can channel can be turned in this way. The weakness of our strength. Everyone else is as safe as a fortress; only their own deeds and will can turn them to the Shadow."**
It says, there is a weakness in being able to channel. That implies to me that it's the ability, not the action, that opens one up. I still stick with my "has channeled - a hole" and "can channel - weak spot" theory, and that "weak spot" can be broken by the 13/13.
Part of what I meant by the #2 is more along the lines of a simple disability; the sul'dam can no longer be a sul'dam. What you were saying about developing an affinity -- well, I always hated the Seanchan parts, so I'll leave it up to you.
Re #9: **Rand has 3 channelers, and a non-channeler in his head, along with a split personality that was already there. He, apart from being already technically insane, is fine. So, I don't think it would happen.**
Maybe the people in my theoretical situation wouldn't go insane, but maybe they would from having that many people in their head. I stick by my "they would be in eachother's heads" point; whether or not they go crazy depends on who they are, and how much they hate each other.
**I don't agree on the #1 and everything that is derived from it. why? well, because think of the male not-yet-channelers. We know that the insanity comes from the taint but if what you are suggesting is true then does it mean that the male would-be-channelers would go insane just the same even though they have never touched the Source?**
No, one can only go crazy that way by channeling tainted saidin. External forces could still manipulate the link.
**Oops. Too many halves, I must have had my turned Aes Sedai bonded by a sul'dam.**
I'm going to put that quote in my sig some day.
For my thing about bonding, sul'dam, and damane, I think we need to do some more research on that matter. That is, about the link between (sul)dam(ane), and what the bonding weave DOES. What if somebody in a circle bonded a Warder? This stuff is all very theoretical; I wonder if even RJ has thought about it. Thank the Creator for the Creator having graduated in physics.... I'm in physics class right now, and it means that the Power stuff makes a little bit of sense.
15
Callandor: 2005-10-25
**It says, there is a weakness in being able to channel. That implies to me that it's the ability, not the action, that opens one up. I still stick with my "has channeled - a hole" and "can channel - weak spot" theory, and that "weak spot" can be broken by the 13/13.**
Well, Jordan has confirmed that sul'dam would not slow on their own. They have not touched the source, and we know that is a key part of when you slow, since it's a key part of channeling. I would still say that if someone tried to turn a learner or sever a learner, that nothing would happen at all. There's no link to the One Power to exploit. They're in essence, a non-channeler.
**Maybe the people in my theoretical situation wouldn't go insane, but maybe they would from having that many people in their head. I stick by my "they would be in eachother's heads" point; whether or not they go crazy depends on who they are, and how much they hate each other.**
Well, the thing is that Rand is bonded to Elayne. He isn't aware of Birgitte, and neither is she aware of Rand. Elayne is aware of both but isn't aware of Min. Alanna had a big reaction to Rand being bonded again, but she doesn't even know who bonded him, let alone that there were three that did it.
I don't see a chain of voices being made here. If the bonder has more than one bondee, then they're aware of more than one -- but it doesn't extend to everyone who is bonded by a chain or anything.
**No, one can only go crazy that way by channeling tainted saidin. External forces could still manipulate the link.**
But again, there isn't a link, since they haven't channeled yet. They're basically non-channelers, and that's why they age normally. If there was a link, they would presumably slow, suffer the effects of the taint, and be vulnerable to turning. Yet, we know for sure one of these isn't the case, making it highly doubtful that either of the others is.
**What if somebody in a circle bonded a Warder?**
The person or the circle? If the person did it, they would have to be the leader of the circle. I would say the bond would spread to the entire link, since links make many people effectively one solid entity.
But, no Aes Sedai would follow practice that way in any case ;)
