1
Tamyrlin: 2004-02-12
I don't believe your average darkfriend ever sees Shayol Ghul. And I think the number of Black Ajah may be larger because of the life span of Aes Sedai. They live much longer, have more time to "recruit"...those are my thoughts.
2
Dorindha: 2004-02-13
First of all, most BA only know 2 others - the other 2 in her heart - I think only a few (eg Alviarin) know more. Liandrin's 13 didn't know more than one other in the 13 before they went away.
I think Tamyrlin's right about the age span affecting things, but I think it's likely that the BA does actively recruit - I think Galina thinks about it but I can't be sure.
I don't know about Emond's Field, cos it is very out of the way, and Fain seemed to work alone. Incidentally, Fain isn't from EF, and he was chosen for the job because he travels, as it was unclear where the DR would be. However, the fact that no one else was working on it from within EF, after Fain had identified which village, would suggest that there aren't any, at least reliable, DFs in EF.
3
nick: 2004-02-13
I had a thought about recruiting Aes Sedai. Throughout the books we see any sister take responsibility for women they find who can already channel unknowingly, have the spark born in them or who can be taught to channel.If any of these women were found by someone of the Black Ajah it may be easier to recruit them before they get them to the tower to begin their training.Unfortunately I don't know how this would effect their swearing the 3 oaths when they eventually become AS.
4
a dragonburned fool: 2004-02-13
About the percentage of DF in cities: Nevertheless, it's known that DF are to be found in any layers of society, and some DF are poor, there is one thing to be considered: DF generally are greedy for power and they would be much more where power is to be obtained. In the aristocratic society it's not easy for everyone to become one of the official elite: with few exceptions (as Shiaine) one has to be born as noble; and nobles has the power in the country. In the Tower the situation is different: AS have power and every female channeler can become AS if strong enough. It's significant, that no a single DF is in the Kin, i.e. all the female channelers, that are DF, are in the Tower. Most wilders want not channeling because they are scared of being part of all the dreaded OP-stuff, while the DF hasn't such a problem and therefore one of the most common reasons for wilders to remain wilders works not for DF. And many women with the attitude to become DF (greed for power, no scrupples etc) would attempt to join the Tower. So there is to be expected much greater percentage of DF in the Towen, then in common cities.
5
molec: 2004-02-13
Many Aes Sedai are also more ambitious and interested in power, or increasing their power, than the average person.
6
Great Lord of the Dark: 2004-02-13
Good thought on the lifespan Tam.
I've drawn some diagrams trying to figure this out. Let's say the Black ajah are compartmentalized, so that each member of the first heart knows each other, and one member of another heart, but each of the ones they know is in the same heart. So, you would have two groups of three, who if discovered, could only reveal up to 6 Black ajah total. This would fit in with the secrecy policy.
However, some quotes make it seem that each of the three members of a heart knows a Black Ajah of a different heart, greatly increasing the possibility of uncovering the entire Black Ajah if one is discovered. While not as secure, it may better allow for communication throughout the entire Black Ajah. Alviarin's comments in CoT (A Mark, ch. 21) make me feel this is the more likely scenario. There have been additional quotes from the 13 who fled the Tower that some of them knew 1 other among the 13, maybe 2.
Assuming each of the 13 knew one other from her heart, and another from outside it, there is a minimum of 6 hearts involved, meaning at a minimum there are 6 other Black Ajah who didn't flee, plus the remnants of a heart for the 13th who fled, which is 8 total Black sisters left, at a minimum. Or a grand total of 21 Black Ajah.
If we assume each Black Ajah who fled knew only one other sister, the one from outside her heart, then there are 2 sisters left for every one who fled, bringing the total left to 2*13=26, for a minimum total of 39 Black Ajah.
We know of Alviarin, Elza, Galina, Atuan, Talene, Katerine, Sheriam?, Delana, the one in New Spring (no spoiler), and the 13 who fled, bringing the total to 20 confirmed Black Ajah living at the start of the series. Since Alviarin still has a network in the Tower, and most of the ones we know are not at the Tower, it stands to reason that there must be at least 30 Black Ajah total.
As to the question of the Two Rivers, there are obviosly no darkfriends there or Rand would have been found long before Fain got there. This is why Siuan implicitly trusts Egwene and Nynaeve, why Rand and Verin have been so keen on finding anyone from there who can channel. They are implicitly on Rand's side, or at the least not on the Shadow's.
7
Elder Haman: 2004-02-13
I think it is pretty clear that there where no Darkfriends in The Two Rivers. Something that makes the place unique and probably explains why the Pattern 'chose' the Two Rivers as the place for the Dragon Reborn to be raised.
8
Kadel: 2004-02-13
I dont think the question should be how are the darkfriends recruited, but why. People dont just go walking around thinking "hey I wish I had someone I could crawl around and eat dirt for", do they? I suppose a few might be just crazy, evil people looking for an outlet for their special talents, but I doubt many just love chaos so much that they invite people over to kill their relatives and forcefeed them beer till it comes out their nose.
People become darkfriends because they are promised something. They are promised power, eternal life, etc.
The Forsaken/Chosen can all channel, so naturally they are more valuable to the dark one, so they are actually given honor, power, and eternal life.
A simple beggar may become a darkfriend because he is promised these rewards, although he may recieve nothing of the kind. An Aes Sedai can channel, so she knows she has a greater chance of winning the darkones favor, should she join the black ajah. If she plays her cards right, she may even become one of the Chosen, should the great master so decide.
So, I think the greater % of BA is simply due to the fact that rewards seem more attainable when you can channel, so making the choice to go black is more attractive.
And as for how one is recruited into the darkfriends, I think it is probably a very slow cautious, mutual seeking process. Kind of like hiring the A-team.
9
Callandor: 2004-02-13
**It says in the BWB that all villages that merchants pass through hold a ‘cell' of dark friends, does this mean that Edmond's Field has a cell of was it just Padan Fain?**
Unlikely. Fain was most likely it.
** BWB: The Fall into Shadow
Every town or village visited by merchant caravans PROBABLY hosts a cell.** (emphasis mine)
**Do they have to go to SG? – doubtful**
No, there are many strata of Darkfriends. The dabblers in evil would never get to Shayol Ghul; however, the truely dedicated could get to see it. Also, the Darkfriend social was in shadow of Shayol Ghul:
**TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: Prologue - In the Shadow
"The place where you stand lies in the shadow of Shayol Ghul." More than one voice moaned at that; the man who called himself Bors was not sure his own was not among them. A touch of what might almost be called mockery entered Ba'alzamon's voice as he spread his arms wide. "Fear not, for the Day of your Master's rising upon the world is near at hand. The Day of Return draws nigh. Does it not tell you so that I am here, to be seen by you favored few among your brothers and sisters? Soon the Wheel of Time will be broken. Soon the Great Serpent will die, and with the power of that death, the death of Time itself, your Master will remake the world in his own image for this Age and for all Ages to come. And those who serve me, faithful and steadfast, will sit at my feet above the stars in the sky and rule the world of men forever. So have I promised, and so shall it be, without end. You shall live and rule forever."**
10
free will: 2004-02-15
The BA is secretive (3 of hearts) for a reason, specifically to avoid subconciously treating black sisters different from other sisters, thus allowing non-BA torecognize the special "group".
The other fector to remember is that the BAis really a subset of a larger organization, the DFs. Mryydraal could direct channelers to the WT and the sisters might never know she was DF until after she swears the 3 oaths. I think its ironic that after swearing the "no lying" oath, a new AS doesn't proclaim "I am and never have been a DF!". Myyrdraal and other DFs could instruct BA membes to bring women A (unkown to the sisters previously) to the tower and to not bring women B (just discovered can learn to channel), and the instructions can be based on whether the women is DF material already or if shadow intelligence suggests she can be convinced.
It is possible that 80% of WT AS are BA, merely because if a woman is known (by a Myrdraal) to not be a DF then the Myrdraal just has to tell one BA member to cause the woman to be driven out and then the woman joins the Kin or just never finishes her training.
AS can also be brought over forcibly, even without a double circle (13 AS, and 13 Myrdraal), all it takes is capturing an AS enough that she thinks she can be killed (vulnerable after torturing or killing her warder) and offering to spare her if she joins the Shadow. And once sworn to the shadow, then they can embrace it or be miserable. I suspect the women who test ter'angrael are/were women who were brought to the shadow against their will and regereted the decision.
11
Rhodric: 2004-02-15
emond's field DF - i'm going out on a limb and saying there are no DFs in the Two Rivers, or at least there weren't until the recent flood of refugees. Manetheren, thorn in the DO's foot, leads me to believe that the pattern was woven such that no DFs were in Manetheren, and it remained so during the their estrangement from the world. but i could be wrong.
12
ilgross: 2004-02-16
The 'They live longer' idea doesn't work as they good Aes Sedai would also live longer and would balance out the BA, I modeled it and they should have the same proportion of friends of the dark.
A heart is a group of three BA would all know one another and work together. Each Black Ajah Knows ONE OTHER black sister, this is how communication is done.
Yes Aes Sedai are probably more sussectible to becoming dark, due to their extensive knowledge, their power, the fact that they can channel and therefore be forcabilty turned.
Since there are only 1000 Aes Sedai, I doubt there are any more then 300 Black Ajah at the very most as any more would probably be able to turn the entire tower dark, (Think, Elaida did it with less then a third of the Tower and the Black Ajah would be way more subtle then her)
Total number of Black Ajah we know about...
QUOTE: from dragonmount.com
by Hammar
13 left Tower in tDR
4 among the Group that captured Rand
1 with the Rebels
1 with Elayne
3 in the Tower at the end of CoT I do not count Katherine Alrudin she was in the 4 in the Rand party.
That is 22 we know exist... it could be possiable that there are only 20 or so left but this is what Alverain said in CoT
"Elaida knows, Great Mistress" she breathed, raising her eyes. In front of her stood a woman of light-and-shadow, clothed in light-and-shadow, all stark blacks and silvery whites that flowed from one to the other and back. Silver eyes frowned from a face of smoke, with silver lips drawn in a tight line. It was only Illusion, and really not done any better than Alviarin could have. A flash of green silk skirt embroidered with elaborate bands of Bronze showed as Mesaana glided across the Domani carpet. But Alviarin could not see the weaves that made the Illusion any more than she had felt those the woman had used to arrive or cast the room in shadows. For all she could sense, Mesaana could not channel at all!
The lust for those two secrets usually cut at her, but today she hardly noticed. "She knows that I am Black Ajah, Great Mistress. If she has uncovered me, then she has someone digging deep. DOZENS OF US MAY BE AT RISK, perhaps all of us."
Dozens means at least 36 at the very least...
Perhaps all of us...another 36 at the very least...
I am going to have to assume that there are 72 Black Sisters at the very least...
END QUOTE
I would say around 100 Black ajah exist.
The Big un-answered question is how they are recruited, as it would be very risky for either of the parties involved to be too public about the fact that theyr what to recruit/join the black Ajah.
13
Khaos: 2004-02-16
There are quite a few interesting ideas here. My general opinion as has been mentioned by a few others is that the higher than average % of Black Ajah is due to a desire for power amongst these women. Aes Sedai have power and a longer than normal lifespan just enough to give them a desire for more of the same something they can only get by becoming a dark friend.
As for the numbers of Black Ajah we have to be careful in our estimations although it does appear in the books as if every other sister is black, you need to remember that black sisters would be more prominent in the storyline. The numbers still have to be relatively low otherwise the Black Ajah could operate with impunity and dominate the tower. I think the suggestion of 30 is too low and I think 100 is far too high, I would put the numbers at about 40-60. About half of which are in the tower and the other half are the sisters we know of outside the tower. The rebels have few Black Ajah other than Delana possibly a couple others.
However I would say that it is unlikely that any of these sisters have been forcibly turned. We have had the POV of several sisters and they often reminisce about becoming a DF and all were willing. The practice would simply be too dangerous to the BA and would mean that BA sisters would learn too much about each other, the 13 involved would probably be able to suss out who was who.
Also I think it very likely that few BA were DF before thay came to the tower, again our only POV of a sister who was a DF before coming to the tower was Liandrin, the others were already AS. From a recruitment perspective this would make sense. A BA recruiter would always have to keep in mind that they would have to kill any possible candidates if they suspected they would give them away. The 3 oaths would be very useful for them to be sure that the sister truky intended to swear to the dark and was not playing along to infiltrate the BA.
14
Aelfinn: 2004-02-16
***And as for how one is recruited into the darkfriends, I think it is probably a very slow cautious, mutual seeking process. Kind of like hiring the A-team. ***
Umm, how was the A-team recruited?
I might just be saying the same thing, but let's say a DF has a non-DF aquaintance. The non-DF trusts the DF, so the DF can work DF thinking into the conversation until the NDF *is* a DF in all but name. When the NDF has reached that stage, then the DF can tell them who they've become, and that they can either be turned in or sign up.
15
a dragonburned fool: 2004-02-17
Just a little comment regarding BA recruitement: There is a factor making the recruitement a little bit easier. Every Accepted and new-raised AS is supposed to be delicately guided to the position and duties she will have. "Guided" means IMO that some sisters begin to pay special attention to the young woman and to introduce her in their works, and all other AS seeing that do not ask what the "guides" aim, for it is unwritten law in the Tower that it is extremely unpolite to ask another sister what she does. The choice of Ajah is so, the choice for any posts in Ajahs is so (as Siuan was guided for the post of head of the eyes and ears of the Blue Ajah). That pracctice makes it a little bit easies also to "guide" young women into the Black Ajah.
16
ilgross: 2004-02-18
Sure but it only takes one strong willed novice to resist and the whole black ajah might be exposed.
Maybe they are worked up to it and then they use a Dream Ter'angreal to make the final induction.
17
solomonrex: 2004-02-18
I think the real factor that balloons BA membership is simple effort on the DO's part. We know that Ishy is free from time to time over the last thousand years. He would be concentrating most on the White Tower in that time, because they are the keepers of the Aes Sedai tradition, and that tradition was the basis of his civilization in the AoL.
That's also the genius of the pattern bringing the kin, Aiel and Windfinders into Rand's power- they weren't focused on by the DO. They were hidden power, and their social structure made it more difficult to become evil without being noticed than the cloistered AS.
18
Davian93: 2004-02-18
****That's also the genius of the pattern bringing the kin, Aiel and Windfinders into Rand's power- they weren't focused on by the DO. They were hidden power, and their social structure made it more difficult to become evil without being noticed than the cloistered AS****
Good point, however there will also be DF among all of those groups. DF's are part of every society and those will be no different. The only difference, like you said, is the DO hasn't concentrated on those groups as much. Actually, there might not be any DF's among the Kin since if there were the storehouse for ter'angreal, sa'angreal, and angreal would have been turned over long before. The Aiel and the Windfinders probably have the average percentage of DF's among them though.
19
a dragonburned fool: 2004-02-19
BA recruitment may look like the following. A Black sister takes an Accepted under guidance, but at first time she guides her only into her official Ajah. While guiding, she could however see, if the Accepted shows the required interests, and decide, would she guide her also into the Black Ajah. If the second happens, nobody form the rest of AS would see something odd in the close attention of the BA to the young woman, for it is normal for AS to "guide" young ones. But if the BA sees, that the Accepted would resist, she guides her only into the official Ajah and stops the guiding. For example, if Tarna is not black (as I hope), so Galina broke her block, guided her to the Red Ajah, but has seen, that Tarna isn't interested in joining the Red, and stopped the guidance...
20
solomonrex: 2004-02-19
There are definitely DFs in those cultures somewhere, but nothing like the regular countries, in my opinion, we haven't seen that. The aiel's moral code and social relationships make it very hard for the DFs to get any traction there, similar to the borderlands. The Atha'an Miere have similar problems of getting away from your crew while at sea- that isn't happening. My sense is that we're not going to see any more DFs from those groups in the narrative anyway. But I think the DF's recruiting would be more difficult in those societies, so there should be less than average numbers.
21
Davian93: 2004-02-19
****But I think the DF's recruiting would be more difficult in those societies, so there should be less than average numbers.****
Good point. I hadn't thought of it that way.
22
Arbryan: 2004-02-19
I have to believe that the BA has a significant number of sisters. This has a lot to do with the promises of immortality and the tangible vs. intangible. Evil is always more tangible and an easier path to walk than that of faith. It also has a basis in the actions of Alviarin. AS or not, her actions alone indicate that she is over a large number of black sisters. If she were over <20 sisters I doubt she would be the same person when it came to her arrogance, authority complex, and mannerisms.
It will be interesting to see what happens when the ages of the Kin become common knowledge. The "eternal life promise" used to lure AS to the BA will pretty much go away - and you might see a few pissed off sisters.
23
Khaos: 2004-02-20
dragonburned fool
I still think it is unlikely that initiates to the BA were guided from an early part of their traininig.
I have 3 reasons for this
1)Its too dangerous, the BA organisation is established so that should 1 be discovered the damage would be limited. If any members were guided in this way it would give the tower a list of legitimate suspects to question and scrutinise.
2) Darkfriends aren't exactly known for wanting to share the power so there is a question as to whether they would even activelt recruit.
3) Most turn to the dark out of a desire for power those who are about to become Aes Sedai receive power and I think it will take some years before the desire for more takes hold.
24
charliec: 2004-02-20
A thought on forced recruitment- a major theme in the books is that no-one is so far gone in the shadow that they can't return to the light.
But how does this fit with being forcibly turned... we're not told, presumably it's not along the lines of the soul trap (where an object is used to blackmail the victim) but in some manner subverts their will...
Maybe the turned state is fragile enough that the BA wouldn't want to use it at all, as the victim could rebel and betray them (or die through rejecting what is forced on them), or perhaps it requires constant supervision by a controlling mind, in which case it'd be too much effort except in VERY special cases...
give me your thoughts on the matter!
25
Tain Shari: 2004-02-21
You are all talking about the recruitement and i just have a question. I have never understood how they can turn some one to the dark against there will, I know that you can get the whole 13/13 circle but what does it do? I would think that the following of the DO would be a choice you made, Does it just mean that the DO owns you in a sense and "tags" you as his own. Do it give him a back stage pass into your soul? Cos he managed to wrangle his way into rand/perrin/mat dreams during the EOTW. I think that the recruitment is like the candyman thing, if you havn't seen it well here is the general idea, you look into a mirror and call "candyman" three times intoa mirror and he appears, he then kills you, but i don't think the DO kills his recruits but meerly binds them with an oath or something. There where nine rods of domination and i haven't ever seen them all acounted for. So what, you can call "DO DO DO" and your local DO representative comes and signs you up. I think that this is almost the truth, but they call and he meets them in dream land, where i spose he can bind them cos what happens there happens in real life, so really a journey to SG wouldn't be nessicary he would take them Via dream world ( i can't and wont try at spelling it ) and then makes them sign on the dotted line and binds them with oaths.
But then i don't think that happens with every one, i think the ones who just do it to be naughty are just met by him in the dream and he make a value call on there comitment and then they think they are part of something greater while those that want in on the big 10 year plann make the dream journey and those who really are wanting life eternal actually make the journey.
26
Great Lord of the Dark: 2004-02-26
NEW SPRING SPOILER***
In New Spring we meet Merean, the Mistress of Novices under Tamra, and she happens to Black Ajah. We also meet a number of Accepted, who include in their number Atuan, Katerine and Sheriam, two of whom become Black Ajah and one whom I strongly believe is Black Ajah.
I think Merean's role was to identify women who might be swayed to the Black. As Mistress of Novices, she has far more interaction with Accepted than any other sister. She can then relay the candidates to Blacks hidden within other Ajahs so that they are appropriately guided to the Black. We've seen that once 'claimed' it is difficult for a new sister to get away from a sister of her own Ajah who has plans for her.
I think that whenever a Mistress of Novices is Black, a 'recruitment drive' begins, leading to a large number of inductions in the next two decades. The number of Accepted we see in New Spring who become Black Ajah points to Merean as the prime recruiter.
27
charliec: 2004-02-27
Great Lord, I like your point, and think you're right.
Tain Shari- we've already seen that just saying Shai'tan, to some extent attracts the DO's attention, so I've always assumed it's kindly like the candyman model (if not so ritualistic). Fain comments that he can spot darkfriends, even those who've really only toyed with the idea. I think that those who decide to become darkfriends attract the DO's attention, and he then finds ways to draw them in. If they start off only dabbling he'll demand small things, then work them deeper into evil untill they feel they can't escape (even if they want to).
28
Aelfinn: 2004-02-27
***You are all talking about the recruitement and i just have a question. I have never understood how they can turn some one to the dark against there will, I know that you can get the whole 13/13 circle but what does it do? I would think that the following of the DO would be a choice you made, Does it just mean that the DO owns you in a sense and "tags" you as his own. Do it give him a back stage pass into your soul? Cos he managed to wrangle his way into rand/perrin/mat dreams during the EOTW.***
*laughs* Listen, I made a theory titled something like "severing, being Turned, Warders, sul'dam, wilders, et cetera" and -- besides using the word 'hypothesis' too many times -- I was discussing a bit about what Turning is like.
I wouldn't quite say that I got majorly flamed, but it came close. If you have ideas about what Turning is like, post them there. If you believe that a Turned burnt-out ex-channeller wouldn't be Turned any more, post! I need some support.
29
: 2004-02-27
Sheriam was the mistress of novices, too. If she is Black (and I suspect that she is) then wouldn't it be ironic if she were recruited by the MoN when she was an Accepted.
Blacksmith
30
Unicorn: 2004-02-27
Boy there are a lot of good arguments here. I think all three hypothesis set forth have some influence, eventhough I actually do not think that the 13/13 thing is used, stated above it would ruin the cell structure and Charliec has other good points as well. I feel that a higher concentration of DF in the tower is natural on two counts. In the first instance, it is a place of power, I would think that Washington DC held significantly more Darkfr- ohh KGB spies than Penbroke, NH during the cold war. Second, is a little more involved, but I think most would agree the AS are not feeble little timid women, the whole training process is described as far too rigous for that, no matter how some sisters are described. So we have a bunch of ambitious women who find out that they cannot wield the power they actually have. This is the crack that should be exploited by Alviarin, and her croonies. Some ofcourse will accept things the way they are and other can be brought further along. Could be either by showing them an unknown pleasure in being cruel, "and we wont condemn you", or the promises thing. Ask the CIA how you make someone betray their country, this would be much the same. I think AS are targeted and actively recruited. I also think that there is a higher chance of one of them being more amenable to turning than in the general population, as stated before. But it is a slow process I'm sure.
In the ordinary world the closer you get to the social layer of beggar the easier it is to make a potential investment who know too much disapear, the higher up the more difficult, and if AS turned up dead for no apparent reason too often it would jeopardize the organisation too much
31
charliec: 2004-04-06
Late re-opening of the theory (for which I apologise), not really trying to continue any debate- I just cam across a quote which others might find interesting on the whole Darkfriend recruitment question.
EotW 'Remembrance of Dreams' Moiraine says "Out of the mass of humanity, the Dark One can touch an individual only by chance, unless that person seeks it." Supports the suggestion that you just have to want to be recruited to become a darkfriend.
