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ources of RJ's ideas

by crispyroach: 2004-02-10 | Not yet rated

Previous Categories: Miscellaneous

I know that many people refer to Norse mythology for most of RJ's legends and names, but there are alot more than that. Noting the sources could help piece together the **end** of the story, and overall gives a more enjoyable reading. I have noted a few here.

King Laman and his distruction of the Tree of life is noticably from the Book of Mormon Laman. Though he didn't cut the tree down, he did shun it, and turned to the world to make a mockery of it (ie, make his throne).

I don't have the book anymore, but i thought that the end sequence of TEotW was remarkably like the transcendental voyage of Buddah while under the tree. (i would be more specific, but i lost the book).

Alot of people mention Goodkind as being very similar also.

Any others that you can see?

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Comments

Tamyrlin: 2004-02-28

Hmm, I hadn't ever considered the Laman from the Book of Mormon as a source for the King Laman story, but it definitely works. I think it is interesting, as a sidenote, that Jordan chose the Aiel, (in my opinion, most like the American Indian), to come to kill Laman. Is there any other Laman in known human history? But you are right, Laman is tied to the Tree of Life, and his mockery of it brings about his destruction, and the destruction of his people...interesting idea. I can't comment on Buddha's trip, don't know much about it. Try to discuss new ideas on this post (in other words, don't repeat the old faithful, and tired ideas about Norse mythology and Tolkien.)

Eelfinn Ty: 2004-02-29

While reading Dan Brown's "The Da Vinci Code" a couple of different names for the holy grail caught my eye. They were "Sang réal"(Blood Royal) and "San gréal"(Saint Grail). They seem too similar to Sa'angreal to be a coincidce.

Unicorn: 2004-02-29

Sorry Tamyrlin, I will sneak in a little Norse Mythology. One thing I have never seen mentioned anywhere, and just not I checked the FAQ, is this. Tyr, the Norse war god was not a god!, he was a human, I don't remember the exact circustances(4th grade history lessons are 25 years back), but for some reason he was "invited to stay" in Asgaard, with the gods. COuld ask my mum if someone want's the story she's into that stuff. Anyway if it has any bearing on the story it might be that Rand actually is able to recreate the creators work, thus doing something only a god can do, and in a round about way sort of becoming one. Or be remebered as the creators ....son, wait a minute that's a different religion isn't it. But that would be just Jordans style to merge things like that.

brigitta: 2004-03-01

I just finished Marion Zimmer Bradley's "the Mists of Avalon", and IMO, both Moiraine and Lanfear might have been inspired from that. and that book is inspired from the Arthur stories... Also, references to LoTR are obvious...

Unicorn: 2004-03-01

I think Brigitta is on to something. I belive that I have seen Morgan Lefey spelled Morgaine somewhere once. That would be close to Moiraine and LeFey is IMO certainly close to Lanfear. Also Tar Valon is almost an anagram for Avalon

Daekyras: 2004-03-02

The Egwene, Rand Gawyn triangle is similar to an Irish legend called the "toireacht". I have a few more ideas from Irish mythology that could help. Just make sure to verify, it's been a while since my history classes too!

Far Aldazar Din: 2004-03-02

i have found jordan pulling names from many places. messana is a region in sicily, aginor is the mythological father of europa. i believe that he took elayne and morgase from le morte d'artur, where elayne and margawse (pretty similar to morgase) appear as relatives of arthur. also, nynaeve, nyneve is in le'morte as a lover of merlin, so i think this character inspired the name.

SugarBullet: 2004-03-03

Though I think it might be a bit obvious, the bible is also clear source material. Even as I write this I can understand why it isn't chatted up as much as others, I imagine for some people it might be touchy, for others, simply too obvious. But anyway, I think there are many direct comparisons between the J man and rand himself. But additionally, I found it interesting to note that Perrin is, in some cases, listed as a variant of Peter meaning "little Peter". This makes for fun, if superficial connections between bible mathew and Mat as they are both (at first) a little less than trustworthy and Peter and perrin as the "rock".

In my mind any bible connection there might be really poses one main question. If RJ really dips his pen into that area, then who will betray rand? I had always suspected mat of this, as others have, but more recently RJ has been setting up Perrin for the job. Whats that quote about when the "right hand falters and the left hand strays?" I always saw that as, on one level, about the three ta'veren.

I'm no scholar, I imagine theres probably other connections to be made, and I am in no means bringing this up as anything other than an additional response to the question posed earlier in the text.

Oh, and I also have seen the name Nynaeve *Al'Maera* as a subtle connection to the mary (maegdalin??) who discovers Jesus or the empty tomb. I've always seen this as a reinforcement of what many people believe - namely nynaeve will heal rand from death. I think this fits RJ's style of creating a possible source to a "retold and retold till it morphed" story.

charliec: 2004-03-03

Interesting bible ideas there sugarbullet, I like 'em but not sure I'm convinced...

On names- I don't think similarities in names are necessarily indicators of sources for the plots... It'd be pretty hard to choose a suitable sounding name which hadn't been used before.

The similarity between names is only likely to be significant if there are strong plot parallels with the source, in which case we'd have to grant it as a deliberate allusion by RJ.

Perhaps there's something to the Mat/Matthew, Perrin/Peter thing... I'm not sure I go with Mat betraying Rand though!

kerene-sedai: 2004-03-03

Back to the Norse...

I've always thought that there was a definite connection between Mat and Odin, what with the probability that he will be losing an eye, and the two ravens that are always associated with him. (The ravens on the ashadrei, the two on his signet ring, and I believe Egwene had a dream of two ravens on his shoulders digging their talons in.)

Eelfinn Ty: 2004-03-03

The Nynaeve Mary Magdalene connection might make sense. I think I've read that at the beginning of the series RJ planned for Nyn to be Rand's lover. There are some people who believe that Mary Magdalene was Jesus's wife. With Rand being a Christ figure it would make sense.

Cossack: 2004-03-04

I think that the creator and the Dark One could be from the christian God and Devil. It is a possibility. The dark one sits in hell (the prison) while the Creator is everywhere and sends his champions to deal with the dark one's menacies. (I hope that is the plural of menace)

bee-bee: 2004-03-04

I do not believe Nynaeve would like to be compared to Mary of Magdala... with her opinion of appropriate behaviour. And I agree with charliec, similar name does not equal similar plot. I sometimes see the similarities in names as a tribute to, well – say Tolkien.

About the Bible connection and things being to obvious to discuss – The Christ figure. I truthfully can say I have found it in every fantasy book I ever read. The one person who is willing to die to save the rest of us. Who realizes that death is coming (or most likely is coming) but still is willing to go on. And who in most cases, in one way or the other, is “resurrected”.

I also think the idea of betrayal in fantasy literature has its origin in the Bible. The betrayer is essential to the story. Without Judas Jesus would not have been crucified, and without Gollum/Smeagol Frodo would never have reached the Mountain of Doom. And without Mr./Mrs. X Rand will never reach the Last Battle?

SugarBullet: 2004-03-04

I think there are other connections to be made. For the record, I'm not suggesting that there should be a direct correlation, but it does provide interesting insights into possibilities in the plot. Jordan intended his story to be the seed that morphed into dozens of modern mythologies, the bible and norse myths being merely two of the more recognizable ones to a western audience.

heronblade: 2004-03-04

Has anyone mentioned the fisher king in arthurian (sp) mythology?

Min Farshaw: 2004-03-04

Well, in celtic mythology there's the Tuatha Dé Danann ("People of the Goddess Danu"). They were one of the mythical races who settled in Ireland before the arrival of the Milesians, the ancestors of modern Gaels. The Dananns were descendants of the goddess Danu. Her son Dagda was their most powerful leader of the Dananns.

The Tuatha Dé Dananns were a race of deities as well as race of heroes. They were skilled in art and science, poetry and magic.

After the Milesians defeated the Dananns, the Dananns either retreated to Tir na n-Og ("Land of Youth") or they continued to lived on the land with the Milesians, but their homes (subterranean palaces) were hidden by magic from the eyes of mortals. Their homes were commonly called Sidhe (síd or sídh) or the Otherworld. Another name for the Tuatha Dé Danann was the áes sídhe or the "People of the Sídhe".

That could be where he got Aes Sedai and Tuatha'an.

If you want to check out any more, I found all my information at:

http://www.timelessmyths.com/celtic/danann.html

Unicorn: 2004-03-06

I have had this idea for some time now, and this seem a good place to float it. We know that shayol Ghul is not where the bore is but where the pattern is thinnest. Well turn it up side down and it is roughly where the southpole would be and then it is a thinning of the ozone layer?

: 2004-03-08

If RJ got "Aes Sedai" from "Aes Sidhe", then he didn't bother to look up the pronunciation, or just ignored it - "Sidhe" is pronounced "shee".

Birgitte is obviously from the Celtic goddess Brigit... And back to Arthurian myth, Gawyn=Gawain and Galad=Galahad.

Also, there's al'THOR. Though I can't see how that would connect to the Norse in anything but name. Perrin's the one with the hammer.

And "Shai'tain" (I think that's how you spell it) is remerkably similar to the Arabic word for "devil".

Arbryan: 2004-03-09

"If RJ got "Aes Sedai" from "Aes Sidhe", then he didn't bother to look up the pronunciation, or just ignored it - "Sidhe" is pronounced "shee"."

I do think that in his world RJ is omnipotent. I think he knows exactly how it's pronounced, and why in the current day there are only female "she" Aes Sedai. It's too much for a coincidence in my opinion.

penguindude: 2004-03-09

The conflict of Ilian and Tear was drawn from ancient Greek myths. For those familiar with Virgil's Aenead, you'll notice that the main conflict comes between the Trojans (Troy also being known also a Illia, as in The Illiad) and the Phoenician Queen Dido (here capital is Tyre).

Furthering that similarity is Tear's reluctant portectorship of Mayene. When the Greeks under Agamemnon invaded Troy (the Trojan War), the army was launched from Agamemnon's capital, Mycenea.

One other myth played out in the series is the delivery of the Horn to Tar Valon by Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne. In Mort d'Arthur, King Arthur (who could be said to be in the horn) was delivered to the isle of Avalon by three queens (Nyna's marriage to Lan makes her Queen of Malkier, Elayne's parantage makes her Queen of Andor, and Egwene as Amyrlin Seat is the equivalent of a queen).

SugarBullet: 2004-03-09

Before junping back into this, let me say that despite jordan often being cleverer than anyone would guess, he is hardly omnipotent. In a thread like this, its easy to send more credit for cleverness his way than may actually be due. That being said - I know this thread covers some well-tread gound, but its a really fun subject - and one that RJ opened the door to be announcing that he had "reverse engineered" myths.

Heres a website you might want to check out: http://www.bulfinch.org/

all three volumes on this site have some interesting stuff. A character named "Ogier", lots of stuff on arthurian legend, and - hey! what's RJ hinting at by having Perrin get all beo"wolfed" out when theres a big bad forsaken named graendal? hmmmmm.

Oh, and as far as my earlier comment on Nynaeve / mary magdalene - I know that there not necessarily similar characters, but it's not the first time RJ has done something for the joke of it, or to illustrate the way stories change with each retelling.

Anubis: 2004-03-10

robert jordan has said that he wants his books to be a source for our mythology. He reverse engineerd mthology, like arthur pulling excaliber out of the stone, to become rand and callandor. The story gets told a billion times and all that remains is that there was a sword in a stone and only one person could pull it out.

brigitta: 2004-03-10

I think maybe Lan is also a form of Lancelot... although where I live, Allan is a perfectly good name for a boy, so.... And the Aiel strongly resemble Vikings, if only for the hair color and fierceness in battle.

Far Aldazar Din: 2004-03-10

if as sombody already suggested, nynaeve was originally engineered by RJ to be the lover of Rand, a character who has many ties to arthur, sword in stone. having Lan be a Launcelot like figure would make sense as they do end up falling in love.

stants: 2004-03-15

I tend to think that many of the characters in WoT are amalgams of characters from mythology. What makes RJ's apparent use of mythology inventive is that his amalgams smash together mythology from different parts of the world, different eras, etc, as if he were writing an meta-myth, incorporating folklore from around the world...and thus delving into the human persona/psyche more keenly.

But I wonder, can we use this as a tool to figure things out. I mean, if we know "who" Asmodean is--what mythological figure(s) he resembles--and we know who that mythological figure(s) enemies were, then shouldn't that provide a clue as to who killed Asmodean. Right now I've got no particular ideas, but I do think using links to mythology as a predictive tool might be valuable.

crispyroach: 2004-03-15

the aiel wear clothes made of "algode". in spanish, cotton is "alogodon".... maybe?

Dorindha: 2004-03-16

stants - That is dangerous with RJ - he likes to mess around with these myths and put his own spin, from what there is in this thread you can see that. I think it is unlikely to lead to anything helpful by following the line of a myth, as you can not be sure whether he is following it or not.

crispyroach - I am sure of the algode-cotton-algodon connection, especially if you read the descriptions (finer than wool etc), and the aiel eat t'mat and zemai, which I am sure are variations on tomato and maize (especially if you read the descriptions)

Unicorn: 2004-03-21

I have found that two things in Seanchan to be of Ancient Egypt.

1. the postfix to mentioning the Empress- may she live forever. THis was used when mentioning the Pharaoh in some dynasties.

2. the striking of a person completely from public records. This was done to criminals and others in ancient Egypt, through out the dynasties as far as I know

Aelfinn: 2004-03-22

: 2004-03-22

I came across the 'Tale of Genji', a Japanese writing over a 1000 years old, which is believed to be the first novel. The main character Genji is called The Shining Genji. Might be a source for the Shining Tower of Ghenjei. (might)

scope: 2004-03-22

**But I wonder, can we use this as a tool to figure things out. I mean, if we know "who" Asmodean is--what mythological figure(s) he resembles--and we know who that mythological figure(s) enemies were, then shouldn't that provide a clue as to who killed Asmodean. Right now I've got no particular ideas, but I do think using links to mythology as a predictive tool might be valuable. **

A brief bit of research has provided the following.

The name Asmodeus is linked with the name Ashmadia which likely finds it root in the persian phrase Aeshma-deva or Demon of Wraith.

Asmodeus appears in Judeo-Christian mythology in the apocryphal Book of Tobit. The general gist of the story is that the demon killed 7 husbands of Sarah before they could consumate the relationship. Eventually, influenced by the Angel Raphael, Tobiah, Sarah's next suitor, burnt fish liver and heart as incense, which drove away the demon.

Asmodeus fled to egypt where Raphael caught him and bound him hand and foot.

The name Asmodeus then pops up in the Testament of Solomon, as a demon Solomon invokes to aid the building of the Temple. This has an interesting quote...

"My constellation (is like an animal which) reclines in its den in heaven; some men call me the Great Bear, but others the Offspring of a Dragon" TSol 5:4-5

Asmodeus also admits that it hates water.

Asmodeus makes another appearance in Milton's Paradise Lost.

I'm sure there's more as well, but nothing so far jumps out as giving clues to his fate. Anyone else see any deeper significance to his demise in WOT?

OKflyboy: 2004-04-19

Just a quick one, and not too mind-blowing either, but worth sharing.

“The Eye of the World” pg. 51 When Egwene asks Thom “ Tell us about Lenn, how he flew to the moon in the belly of an eagle made of fire. Tell about his daughter Salya walking among the stars.”

I believe she is asking about John Glenn, landing on the moon in Apollo 11's Eagle moon-lander, and about Sally Ride, the first female American in space.

Makes sense to me...

Darren: 2004-04-20

Umm... on a tangent...

"The Wheel of Time" was a short story by Henry James. James also wrote a novel called "The Golden Bowl." I've always figured that Al'cair Dal was a little tip of the hat to that.

brigitta: 2004-05-07

okay, I'm embarrasssed I hadn't thought of this before but the origin of sa'angreal is most definately the Holy Grail. in old Italian- Sangreal

Grearon: 2004-05-11

I don't know, I always attributed many things in WoT to eastern myths and philosophies. Its interesting then, I think, that while the philosophies may seem eastern, many of the names are western. I do like the

galad = galahad

lan = lancelot

gawn = gawain

especially because the Jordan characters are so alike to their arthurian counterparts. Gawain/Gawn is seen to be a younger Arthur, acting as a king should, bound to his duty beyond his personal feelings, but still failing somewhat in both. Galad/Galahad seems perhaps the stongest of the connections, as Galahad is supposed to be Lancelots redepmtion, meaning that he would not fall to temptation the same way Lancelot did. Galahad and Galad are similar characters in that each is an embodiment of the "true" knight who always does right. Lan and Lancelot could be connected through their equal prowress with the sword and through the fact that each has weaknesses emotionally, that did/could lead to their own downfall.

I wonder if anyone could find any names from eastern mythology? I can see a few eastern legends such as parts of the ramayana as being included within WoT, but not many names. Any other eastern myths people see in WoT?

Anubis: 2004-05-11

asmodeus was also the snake in redwall :P

Yaga Shura: 2005-02-19

For the connection between Rand al'Thor and the Norse god Thor, according to pantheon.org, Thor was a redhead, protected the world from the forces of evil, and he could make lightning flash by using his hammer. Seems to tie in with a lot of what Rand does.

Callandor: 2005-02-20

**For the connection between Rand al'Thor and the Norse god Thor, according to pantheon.org, Thor was a redhead, protected the world from the forces of evil, and he could make lightning flash by using his hammer. Seems to tie in with a lot of what Rand does.**

But Thor ties in better with Perrin, not Rand. For example, Thor can call lightning and that's similar to Rand, but what's the means? His hammer, of which Perrin is always in a constant battle of Hammer vs. Axe.

From the WoT FAQ:

**Rand and Tyr: Tyr was a Norse god of war and of justice. This is a parallel with Rand bringing strife to Randland, and with his concurrent attempts to rule justly and by the rule of law. (Note: Tyr is not connected to legality as a maker of peace or a bringer to justice, but more as the embodiment of laws as power, of the fight that is fought in court instead on the battlefield. The god of justice in the Norse pantheon is Forsete, of which next to nothing is known. [Karl-Johan Norén]) Tyr's arm was snarfled off by the monstrous wolf Fenrir (Perrin?) when the gods chained him. (The gods thus defeated one of their greatest enemies, at the loss of one of their greatest assets, Tyr's right (fighting) hand.) If this parallel is valid, then this could be evidence that Rand will lose his hand-- RJ said at a signing in Atlanta that he deliberately made Mat like Odin and Rand like Tyr. Furthermore, Tyr offered to put his hand in Fenrir's mouth as an assurance that the chains would be removed. Hence, it was a willing sacrifice. This may be analogous to Rand sacrificing his life or body parts at Tarmon Gai'don (or before).

Perrin and Thor: Karl-Johan Norén notes: "Even though Perrin does not share any attribute with Thor other than his strength, his beard and the hammer, their roles and personalities are remarkably similar. Both are mostly connected to the common man, both have a good head but are slow to use it, and both are terrible in their anger, though Thor is much [quicker to lose] it than Perrin. Perrin's hammer is a symbol for peace and building, but this trait is also present in Thor and Mjolnir, even though it is not readily present in the myths."**

RJ obviously takes pieces of the myths for each character. Thor's red hair could obviously be added to Rand, and a majority of Thor to Perrin instead. Or something entirely different could be true.

Aendur: 2005-02-20

Back to crispyroach's original topic, I'd like to point out a few more Biblical parallels.

In the book of Revelations, some may recall the 7 seals parallel (7 seals on the scroll, seven seals on the DO's prison), however, shortly after the seals are broken (in Revelations) and the 7 trumpets blown, there is a passage about a woman, her son, and the Dragon that I believe applies somewhat to Rand's own origin.

A "great Sign appeared in Heaven" (probably either Gitara Moroso's Fortellings). There continues to be talk of twelve stars (perhaps the 12 Aiel Tribes, not counting the Jenn) and a Dragon's Sign (the Falme vision to Gitara's?). The Dragon has 7 crowns (Rand already has many, and may gain more) Then, the woman gave birth to the Child who would _shepherd_ all nations with an iron rod (Rand was a shepherd and rules nations, etc). Then the woman escaped to the desert (the story of Tigraine/Shaiel, but backwards). The Child then causes war.

Just a thought.

Stilicho: 2005-02-21

Asmodean, who claims to have joined the shadow because of his love of music (i.e. so he could enjoy it for eternity). Amadeus, noted musician, composer, etc. Just a possible connection and some fun with similar names on RJ's part. We can't lose sight of the way RJ entertainingly mixes cultural attributes: Shienaran culture resembles that of Shogunate Japan, but they fight like meieval Europeans; the Aeil look like Vikings, live like Bedouin (in the waste) and fight like the Zulu (short spears, bucklers, "bull's horns" tactics); The Tairens resemble conquistador era Spaniards; Andor-welcome to the England of good Queen Bess...and so on. It makes things tantalizingly familiar, yet new and interesting at the same time.

Ozymandias: 2005-02-21

Also, the differences in military tactics of the Shadow and the Light are interesting. It seems as though the vast majority of Randland nobles have read von Clausewitz very thoroughly. On the other hand, the Forsaken enagage in tactics much more akin to those expressed by Sun Tzu. For example, the Art of War states that an army, and especially the general (and therefore his plans) must be fluid and ready to adapt to anything, not rigid and boxed in. The three Forsaken who box themselves in; Sammael, Rahvin, and Bel'al, those who establish a realm of control and settle down to fortifying it, are all eventually killed (Mesaana also seems to be on the verge of being discovered). Those Forsaken that remain fluid and adaptable and operate in secret, like Demandred, Moridin, and especially Graendal, are flowering, so to speak, in their respective locations.

Also, the idea of secrecy and backstabbing is rampant among the entire world. Daes Dae'mar, and the twisted version the Forsaken seem to play among themselves, are very reminiscent of Sun Tzu's recommendation that espionage be preferable to all out battle. The Forsaken seem to enjoy manipulating individuals and causing confusion and dissension in the ranks of their enemies (see Graendal's actions in Arad Doman with Lord Ituralde). This goes hand in hand with what Sun Tzu suggests.

On the other hand, the commanders of the Light, like Weiramon, are all for the frontal assault, the cavalry charge, attaining glory, etc etc etc. They also have elaborate uniforms, work within set parameters in terms of their fighting, and other stylistic things which tie in heavily to von Clausewitz's On War. Await a lengthier post about this, after it goes through Tamyrlin's screening and waiting process... lol

Aiel Finn: 2005-02-22

The military tactics of both schools are rather evenly spread through both sides. As you said, some of the Forsaken tried to use the tactics of frontal assaults and fortified positions just like the more ignorant nobles. Furthermore, the Cahrian (sp) are reputed to be the best at Daes'demar short of Aes'sedai. The tactics of choice seem to be more dependant on the specific person than on the side. Mat, Rand, Deveram all seem to be fully in support of a fluid battle, even though they support the light.

MatCauthon: 2005-05-06

Like Eilfinn Ty I also read Dan Brown. In "Angels & Demons" he states that the Church labeled an opposing group as the Islamic word Shaitan (Islamic since the Church considered it a dirty language). Shaitan means adversary.

However, that word was changed through time until it became Satan as we know it.

So its pretty obvious thats where the the DO's name came from. Shai'tan.

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