charliec: 2004-05-03

Darren- nothing explicit is said either way on whether it was a ta'veren effect or Rand channeling. The chapter is from Mat's PoV, and he seems to suspect that it was Rand, but then he was always paranoid.

Just after this Egwene has a dream vision of Mat choosing between two paths (by tossing a coin? not sure) and as he starts down one he suddenly gets his hat and ashanderai- implication being that at this point there were two paths he could take, so it may not have been a ta'veren effect- he had already met his destiny by reaching Rhuidean.

Interesting question what lay down the other path? if he'd gone into the columns what would he have seen, and would his ancestor's memories have served to fill the wholes in his head? not even RAFO.... we'll never know. Ho-hum.

Callandor: 2004-05-03

**Interesting question what lay down the other path? if he'd gone into the columns what would he have seen, and would his ancestor's memories have served to fill the wholes in his head?**

Death was the other path; the Finn told him so.

The columns would not have worked for Mat; they only work for Aiel ancestors.

charliec: 2004-05-09

**Death was the other path; the Finn told him so.**

No, they told him that he had to go to Rhuidean or die, and he'd got there.

**The columns would not have worked for Mat; they only work for Aiel ancestors.**

I didn't know that, is that from an interview?

Callandor: 2004-05-11

**No, they told him that he had to go to Rhuidean or die, and he'd got there.**

Yes, hence, death was the other path ;).

**I didn't know that, is that from an interview?**

**BWB: Page 184-185

CHAPTER 20: The Aiel

The Aes Sedai contatcted the Wise Ones of the Aiel through their dreams, sending a message that all clan chiefs must come to Rhuidean or face complete dissolution of themselves and their clans. Those that came would have a chance to unify the Aiel, but those who refused would watch their people vanish over time. For those who came a permanent truce was declared--the Peace of Rhuidean--which could not be broken. All fighting was prohibited within sight of Chaendaer. Within the heart of Rhuidean the Aes Sedai prepared a great ter'angreal that contained within it all the history of the Aiel. Each clan chief was required to enter the city and face its terrible glass columns. Those who returned, only one in three, had demonstrated the strength to face the truth of their heritage, and the knowledge of the prophacey that must be fulfilled through them. Those who lack the strength to face those truths never returned at all.**

Only Aiel Clan chiefs did it, and it contains only the Aiel history. Doesn't say outright that it would not have worked for Mat, but is quite strongly implied.

Jack o Shadows: 2004-05-30

Again, I'm not reading them all, have you SEEN the amount of text???

1) It's quite arguable that everything so far is a result of Mats luck, or a combination of the three boys. When Rand sent them all though thre portal stone to tomans head and they all experienced every veriation of life, the DO won in every single one of them. So, maybe everything HAD to happen the eay it has in order for the goodies to win. Shadar Logoth, the trollocs seporating them, EVERYTHING could have been (and probably was) a function of the "luck" In order for everything to happen perfectly, they would have to EXTREMLEY lucky, so Mats luck was working all along, it just dind't seam like it 'cos everything was going to pot... But thats a good thing!

2) Seriousley, Lanfear making a guy lucky is doubtfull. Your not gonna mae your enemy super lucky as a means to their eventual defeat, it's like saying, "Right, we wanna beat you, so here, you have the weapons and we'll stand here looking pretty, kay?" And as for "Maybe she wanted to give him bad luck and not good", come on. Lanfear, AoL channeller, SHE KNOWS HOW TO USE A TER!!!(sorry 'bout the caps)

3) I'm sorry but using the thing once wouldn't perminantly effect Mat. If you use a dream ter once, can you do it forever? No. When you use a Sa, can you channell that much more forever? No.

5) Pyschic wolves, okay. Psychic dice...

6) Dice in head: Maybe it's just an expression? How do you know that if you suddeny got a spidey-sense you'be all like, "Wow, I can see ythe future now". You'r mind would probably translate it to somthing you know. (Gambler, dice, somthing gonna happen, everything depends on this?)

7) Mats excessivley lucky night, the guy REALLY needed to get off of Tar Valon RIGHT WHEN HE DID. He had to meet Thom and get on off to Andor pretty sharpish o everything would have gone to pot. The big boss lady had sealed off the bridges as far as Mat was consercened and they wouldn't have let jhim stay on the boat without money, and he dind't have lots of it. He wouldn't have been able to do alot of things without that starting capital so the patter (ve his Ta' iness) gave him a really god night, it just simplified things.

Enough ranting. Mat needs luck, Mat got luck. It's a Ta' thing. (Enough ranting no?)

snakes-n-foxes: 2004-05-31

Callandor...actually , nothing you have said can disprove the theory...everything that has been brought up to 'disprove' the theory, is actually arguable/debatable in what it proves.

Again...someone should put together a theory, with quotes supplied...stating that mats 'gambling' luck is ta'veren (as opposed to normal ta'veren luck which mat does possess).

(when I say gambling luck, I am talking about luck specifically like the type of luck the ter'angreal possesses)

was a fun theory while it lasted :)

solomonrex: 2004-06-03

OK, once again, there is no such thing as ta'veren-ness. It just means that you are the center of the Wheel's weave for a time. Mat will be lucky after Rand seals the DO away, because Lanfear did it. Mat, Rand and Perrin appear lucky from the time the web began to be weaved, because things happen just so. But there's nothing about ta'veren winning every roll of dice, every game- Rand's luck creates life AND death. We can see that because he is the strongest ta'veren ever.

Notice that Mat didn't hear dice on Winternight- though they were all ta'veren from that point (as in your own words, they were extremely lucky for the entire book).

And finally, no other ta'veren hears dice!

Oatman: 2004-06-04

Ok, this theory should be dead by now, coz the only 'evidence' for it is ridiculous at best. Mat is Ta'veren. Ta'veren twist chance to accomplish a task designated by the pattern. Mats task is to lead an army in the LB. Having a lucky reputation will make men more willing to follow you. He also needs money to keep his army supplied, so he wins it. His way of escaping in Van Luca's carnival involved giving him a great deal of money. If not for that, dead Mat.

As for the other Ta'Veren not hearing dice, thats Mats, uh, 'Spidey Sence' for lack of a better phrase. It warns him about danger, like Perrin's wolf sences, and Rands Aiel. It just manifested itself in a way appropriate for Mats personality.

Jack o Shadows: 2004-06-04

**And finally, no other ta'veren hears dice!** - So your saying that EVRYONE would manifest an internal conflict in the same way? Sure! Rand LOVES to gamble and as for Perrin, who, just call him "Mr. All On The Table"!

**Notice that Mat didn't hear dice on Winternight- though they were all ta'veren from that point** - Yeah. Rand didn't hear Lews in his head on winter's night so, Lanfear did that too! And as for Perrin's wolves; Lanfear! 'cos, he didn't hear them on winter's night. Character develpment. That thing writers use so that books don't suck.

They all survived, when the trollocs and fades were SPECIFICALLY looking for them. Seams kinda lucky to me. Mat dind't hear the dice, well, yeah, the first time somthing says to you, "Just turn left instead of right", you INSTANTLY develop a psychologigal manifestation for it. (Sorry I'm sounding a lil sarcastic here but come on, expecting everything in the book to happen RIGHT at the beggining, "If Mat had been that lucky along then he would have heard dice all along" is rubbish. Not everything is explained by ta'veren and the Powers, these characters DO have minds which can be effected just as easily as nayone elses. If you developed a sixth-sense, do you think you would gain instanbt understanding of it? No, it owuld be gradual. I'm sorry, but your argument is flawed!)(sorry for sarcasm!)

snakes-n-foxes: 2004-06-05

Alright...the simple fact is, it is not possible to prove Lanfear gave mat the area of luck he has that matches the dice ter'angreal.

Even though there are many direct quotes, this theory can't be proved, it can only be argued on coincidental material grounds.

However, the Ta'veren argument that people are bringing up is using many many less quotes, if any at all.

A number of people are making up what they want willy nilly to support their argument, without a shred of what the book says to back them up.

We so far have two quotes to back the Ta'veren argument, The dice rolled in Hawkwings presence...which the book says 'there were times' compared to Mats very much more consistant luck, and the Maidens of the Spear, who had a strange night and ALL started throwing sixes (1 night and all of them, compared to Mats almost always and only him)

The rest of the Ta'veren argument is conjecture.

Even saying "Mat needs the money so this is how the wheel supplies it to him' is conjecture. It's conjecture on two points...that Mat 'needs' money (eg, Rand could pay for Mat's army, or so could the Lords who follow Mat, who's armies they were in the first place), and that the wheel would provide him with money when he needs it.

But the biggest killer of the Ta'veren theory is this...No other known Ta'veren exhibits the same type of luck as Mat....however, for all the other known Ta'verens seem to have the same type of luck as each other (just not the same type of luck as Mat's)

If you think it's Ta'veren luck...provide a theory and post it...because I would say it would be damned hard to do - there's very little book based evidence to support this reasoning (as popular as it is).

Callandor: 2004-06-06

**A number of people are making up what they want willy nilly to support their argument, without a shred of what the book says to back them up.**

Interesting take on things, coming from a supporter of this option.

**Even saying "Mat needs the money so this is how the wheel supplies it to him' is conjecture. It's conjecture on two points...that Mat 'needs' money (eg, Rand could pay for Mat's army, or so could the Lords who follow Mat, who's armies they were in the first place), and that the wheel would provide him with money when he needs it.**

I believe there is a unique quote about the Wheel that relates to this...

Ah, here it is:

**TITLE: Great Hunt

CHAPTER: 36 - Among the Elders

"The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills, and the Pattern provides what is needful." The absent look dropped from Verin's face altogether. "Take us to it," she said briskly. "We have lost more than enough time already."**

You know, Mat's only option of leaving, just so happens to be provided by the Amyrlin's letter, and then his food and travel needs met by his wins. Hardly ta'veren chance. Can I stop with the sarcasm now?

**If you think it's Ta'veren luck...provide a theory and post it...because I would say it would be damned hard to do - there's very little book based evidence to support this reasoning (as popular as it is).**

And there is oh so much evidence for the Lanfear option. You know, helping out the people that you don't want to help. Using a ter'angreal to set a permenant weave; something which has never been shown in the books. Having access to said ter'angreal. A plethora of evidence, no doubt.

snakes-n-foxes: 2004-06-07

Callandor, you are right, the wheel provides, glad we have that sorted out.

However, your argument is based on the premise that Mat has been needful to win at gambling ever since being healed...again, Rand or the Lords that follow mat could have provided the money for the army.

As for getting off Tar'Valon, Mat had much more money left over that he 'didn't' need after hopping on the boat to leave Tar'Valon.

Now, as to your sarcasm about us not providing any evidence...forgive me if I say there have been many, many quotes provided. The theory is consistent with all those quotes (but still debatable as a whole). If you want them again, I'm happy to cut and paste them from the ones posted above.

Also, people indeed are making things up willy nilly, without providing quotes to back their arguments up. I have provided examples of where people have done this in the past...again, I can do cut and pastes of this from the posts above if you wish.

Well ...third request, how about you post a theory on Ta'veren being the reason Mat's so lucky at gambling.

And Mats type of luck still doesn't match the other Ta'verens, who all display the same type of luck.

solomonrex: 2004-06-07

"You know, Mat's only option of leaving, just so happens to be provided by the Amyrlin's letter, and then his food and travel needs met by his wins. Hardly ta'veren chance. Can I stop with the sarcasm now?"

Sure. It doesn't sound convincing anyway. That's surely ta'veren 'luck'- but the difference between ta'veren 'luck'- as you refer to it, because it is really only the coincidence of events in the pattern and Mat's luck is that Mat's luck has him winning every game. There were times when it was better if he didn't win a game- but the wheel weaved around it, anyway. Put another way, you can't win this argument, and here's why:

If it's ta'veren luck, then he was lucky to be made lucky. Then Rand is a stronger ta'veren, and should be luckier. Rand doesn't gamble, even when he needed the money while wandering around. They weren't lucky in the same way, either, plenty of times they had bad luck. So most people who support Mat's luck as being ta'veren also suppose that Mat's luck was somehow mitigated by an evil dagger- though we also have no proof of that.

"And there is oh so much evidence for the Lanfear option." You're agreeing now?

"You know, helping out the people that you don't want to help. Using a ter'angreal to set a permenant weave; something which has never been shown in the books. Having access to said ter'angreal. A plethora of evidence, no doubt."

This is silly and ignores what we know. Any angreal that suspends chance would only be useful for gambling if it was a permanent weave. Such a device exists according to the books. Such a device would basically only be useful for gambling, hence a permanent 'weave' is necessary. I have a feeling neither of us know RJ's magic system to declare how such a device would work, when we don't even know what the portal stones are, and they are more clearly described, used and even experienced. So don't say what's impossible. More than one such device may exist. Lanfear would know how to use it. And being lucky in Mat's way is not necessarily beneficial to Mat, so motive can hardly be guessed at- she did help Rand, or are you willing to ignore that, too?

Your argument basically has to declare that Mat is not exceptionally lucky compared to Rand and Perrin, since they are both ta'veren. That is simply not the case. There is no narrative reason for Mat to hear dice if magic is not involved. It's just stupid to hear dice otherwise. RJ didn't use that device for any other character- it's not as if Nynaeve hear's thunderbolts when something important's going to happen.

I don't see what other source the dice sound has.

I don't see what else Lanfear's visit was for.

I don't see ta'veren winning all rolls of the dice in meaningless games.

Anubis: 2004-06-08

**Even saying "Mat needs the money so this is how the wheel supplies it to him' is conjecture. It's conjecture on two points...that Mat 'needs' money (eg, Rand could pay for Mat's army, or so could the Lords who follow Mat, who's armies they were in the first place), and that the wheel would provide him with money when he needs it. **

reading this gave me a headache.... prepare for a rant. ONE. this happend in BOOK THREE. The Dragon Rrborn. Now for those of us who cant recall what was going on at the time, here is a quick summary. Matt was sick and in tar valon. He had no army, needed no army, never talked to lords, and wanted no army. He had never led troops in battle and had no plans to. He wanted out of Tar Valon and that is it. Rand was poor. He could not afford an army. He was walking to Tear. He couldnt even afford a freakin horse. He had no money, was playing his flute and had no contact with matt or means of getting money to matt.

and about the wheel providing him with the money... What DO YOU THINK HAPPEND?? The whole basis of my argument was that his luck was a combination of his innate gambling (the fact that he always ends up ahead) and the pattern giving him what he needs (when his luck goes crazy and he can not loose).

(oh general principle in science: when theres strong evidence for two or more things its ususally both.)

Elder Haman: 2004-06-08

I've noticed a severe lack of response to my proposal that Mat's Luck comes from his encouter with the ruby dagger (for which, by the way, I cited more evidence than there is for both of these other theories of Lanfear or Ta'varen-ness combined, including Mat's own personal judgement that his Luck comes from the dagger, and if anyone would know it would be Mat).

Here are the flaws in the more popular theories:

Lanfear did it:

Flaw 1: Mat's Luck begins to manifest itself before Lanfear's vist (see the beginning to TGH, and the beginning to DR).

Flaw 2: This theory is based on the idea that Lanfear must have had some larger motive for visiting Mat, instead of her stated purpose- accessing him and his level of proclivity for glory.

Flaw 3: This ter'angreal that Lanfear is suppose to have used was taken by Liandrin and the other 12 black sisters and thus was not avialable in the Tower for Lanfear to use- and we have no evidence that Lanfear met with them before seeing Mat in the Tower.

It's Ta'varen!: This theory is more fundamentally flawed, but harder to disprove.

The Major Flaw: Ta'varen = Luck

This is incorrect, the correct formula is:

Ta'varen = Predestined/Foreordained

Which has the resulting appearence of luck. For example: Mat winning at dice ALL the time is not ta'varen-ness, but walking into a tavern and find Thom singing- that is ta'varen. When he was dicing with loaded dice and they came up different than they should might have also been ta'varen. Ta'varen is the swirling/shifting of the Pattern caused by the Pattern's need to stay on track. (That's where Ta'varen come from anyways.) Some of you have realized this but are attempting to save this theory by saying that the Pattern gave Mat his Luck because his ta'varen mission requires it- in the same way that Perrin became a wolfbrother, and Rand got his Aiel. There are several problems with this:

Flaw 1: Rand wasn't "given" the Aiel by the Pattern, or by his ta'varen-ness. Rather Rand's ta'varen-ness created a situation that made it possible for him to gain the Aiel allegiance (as he had planned, if you remember). In the same way Perrin gained the ability to become a wolfbrother, not as a gift, but due to his ta'varen twisting chance so that he met Elyas- and Perrin did not become a wolfbrother until he accepted it, (after the whitecloaks killed Hopper.) So you could argue that the Pattern created the situation so that Mat could pick up the ruby dagger- which would lead to him either dying or becoming very lucky- but it did not just "give" it to him like a treat from the Pattern's goody bag.

Flaw 2: Mat did not need to win every roll of the dice, or nearly as much money as he did in order to leave Tal Valon. Nor does he continue to need to win all the time. I can see winning a few rolls of the dice, (picking the right symbol like Rand did), but not the constant winning of meaningless gambling games. So the Pattern's "need" can not explain all of Mat's Luck- (while interestingly it does explain all of Rand and Perrin's unnatural luck- a hint that there might be a different operating force). In fact, most of the times that Mat's Luck "fails" can be explained by ta'varen twisting chance to fit the needs of the Pattern.

Flaw 3: This Theory fails to explain why the two major changes in Mat's level of Luck are associated with changes in the status of the ruby dagger.

Callandor: 2004-06-08

**"And there is oh so much evidence for the Lanfear option." You're agreeing now?**

Does the concept of sarcasm escape you? I hardly agree with the idea.

**Sure. It doesn't sound convincing anyway. That's surely ta'veren 'luck'- but the difference between ta'veren 'luck'- as you refer to it, because it is really only the coincidence of events in the pattern and Mat's luck is that Mat's luck has him winning every game. There were times when it was better if he didn't win a game- but the wheel weaved around it, anyway.**

So he was given ungodly like luck by a Forsaken, yet the Pattern can still say, "Nah, you lose that game."? Sounds a lot like the influence of a ta'veren.

**This is silly and ignores what we know. Any angreal that suspends chance would only be useful for gambling if it was a permanent weave. Such a device exists according to the books. Such a device would basically only be useful for gambling, hence a permanent 'weave' is necessary. I have a feeling neither of us know RJ's magic system to declare how such a device would work, when we don't even know what the portal stones are, and they are more clearly described, used and even experienced. So don't say what's impossible. More than one such device may exist. Lanfear would know how to use it. And being lucky in Mat's way is not necessarily beneficial to Mat, so motive can hardly be guessed at- she did help Rand, or are you willing to ignore that, too?**

Excuse me, but please quote where in the books that it says that channeling only once through it, causes a permenant chance suspension.

You won't find it. There is a simple reason for that: it was in an experiment, hence active channeling, that chance was suspended. Once the experiment was over, once the channeling stopped, so did the chance suspension.

**RJ didn't use that device for any other character- it's not as if Nynaeve hear's thunderbolts when something important's going to happen.**

Well, to be nitpicking, she does sense "storms" around important events. But that isn't what your asking.

**I don't see what else Lanfear's visit was for.**

To try to tempt Mat to join the Shadow? Sounds like a prime goal.

charliec: 2004-06-09

Elder Haman-

**Ta'varen = Predestined/Foreordained **

I don't think that quite hits the mark either... the Ta'veren have potential for choice, the pattern is not entirely pre-ordained, but it does take them in a general direction.

Oatman: 2004-06-09

It's entirely possible for the dagger to have caused it, thoughfor the Ta'veren argument, remember that none of the trio altered chance much until the start of tDR, which is, of course, the same time Mat started to develop his uncanny luck.

Also, Mats luck isnt always consistant wins. I dont have the quote but I'm pretty sure Mat says that sometimes he is as lucky as the next person, and that his good luck comes in spurts. This is consistant with the quote about Hawkwing about how sometimes every throw of the dice went his way. Also even though being Ta'veren means the pattern has a purpose for you, it dosnt mean you have a preordained path. In a roundabout way, picking up the dagger was a way to give Mat a reason to go to Tar Valon to get the message from Elayne to end up in Tear to follow Rand to Rhuidian to get the battle memories. This path wasnt preordained, but the pattern set up a set of circumstances so that Mat would make the choices to get to that spot. If Mat had just gone, screw it, let Elayne die, and gone off like he had wanted to, than he would have been out of the story.

And another thing to counter the dice, I believe they suspend chance, so it wouldnt make Mat constantly win, just constantly role the same role.

Back to the beginning of the post, I think the daggers purpose was to give Mat the hole in his memories, and to get him to Tar Valon, rather than giving him the luck.

snakes-n-foxes: 2004-06-09

Elder Haman...actually I agree with you on most every point you mentioned...except for the 'flaw' about Lanfears Motives.

It's not possible to say exactly what Lanfears motives were. She was definitely trying to manipulate Mat; and when you are trying to manipulate someone, you rarely spell out all your motives for doing so.

Trying to use Lanfears motive as evidence for anything doesn't work because we don't know it...which means we could argue either way with no result possible.

And there is also evidence that Mat's luck may have been caused by the ruby dagger, for Mat thinks to himself that his luck started changing when he first got the dagger (but at the same time thinks it might have been the healing) (This is in the chapters where he tries to get out of Tar'Valon, the quotes are posted a bit back).

Anubis: 2004-06-10

Haman, you bring up a good point about the dagger. While hard or even impossible to proove, it makes alot more sense then the Lanfear argument.

About Mats streak in Tar Valon. His largest luck streak to date. That was 100% Taveren. Mat NEEDED that money to get to Tear where he was destined to be (so he could go to Rhudien blah blah blah).

However the fact remains that Matt does have unnatural luck. I see three likely explinations.

1. It is a side effect of taveren. I agree with you, flawed but hard to disprove so ill say no more.

2. The dagger. Its kinda like the first one only on sterroids. It does make alot more sense, the timing is right. But it is alot harder to disprove or prove... Matts connection to the dagger was severed completely, to me this means its efects are gone (aside from the memories but i think that can be thought of seperatly). I think that would mean that mat reverts to how he was but again with the hard to prove/disprove.

3. It just is, deal with it. I actually favor this one. Mat is, in my mind, a hero of the horn. I say that Matt is lucky like Rigosh is wise, like Bridgette is unnaturaly accurate, like Hawkwing is a great leader, (like perrin is a wolfbrother).

It seems to me that when a Hero is taveren, the pattern accentuates their natural characteristic. Rands channeling, Bridgettes archery is even better, Hawkwing never loses a battle. That kind of thing.

However Haman, I tip my proverbial hat to your argument. (and maybe the dagger was used by the wheel to bring out mats innate luck.... only RJ knows)

Elder Haman: 2004-06-10

I was not using predestination in the Calvinistic sense but in the Mormon sense- a destiny or duty that was assigned before birth but may be accepted or rejected by the choices of the individual.

dragonsceptor: 2004-06-11

Anubis, I like your explanation. I also support the third option. Mat is a hero and the luck is just part of him. Thanks for the synopsis.

solomonrex: 2004-06-12

It is most definitely NOT the dagger- or did you forget the 'bad luck' that the dagger caused Mat in the form of paranoia, violence and mistrust? As I recall, they had a miserable time earning money while he was sick. It's not as if he got the dagger, went gambling and then was rich as Midas.

Saying that something just 'is' doesn't get us anywhere, because RJ has explained everyone's else's unique talents as some function of the magic/fate system of the WoT.

I'm not saying it was the exact same angreal- I'm saying his luck is artificial, was not caused by the dagger and that it's something more than "ta'veren luck".

His good luck is not perfect when gambling, but it's a lot better than it was prior to TV.

AND Mat has specifically observed that his luck works better with games of pure chance. The pattern would have no trouble rigging games of Stones against Thom, if there really was such a thing of "ta'veren luck". "Ta'veren luck' is just sour grapes from the Forsaken who chose the wrong horse.

Elder Haman: 2004-06-12

My point on the dagger was that when Mat thinks about it he realizes that he first became unnaturally lucky after he picked up the dagger and then had his big run of luck after he was heal from th dagger. As for all of the dagger's effects being gone: Suian says when she heals Mat that no one has ever carried a tainted item like this for such a long time without succuming, and that there would likely be permenant effects- just that she had no idea what those would be.

Anubis: 2004-06-19

I favor some combination of the dagger and matts innate ability. The problem with matts innate ability is that it does not explain the coincidence (interesting... coincidence = pattern work no?) of the daggers timing, while the dagger does not explain the finns comments or the luck happening at incredibly convieniant times (it strikes me that matt would be lucky at random if it were the dagger alone). But yeah hamman, i would love to see a full theory about the dagger being responsable for matts luck. I think there is somthing in it.

snakes-n-foxes: 2004-06-21

Elder Haman -Just a technicality...Mat does not think he became unnaturally lucky after getting the dagger, he thinks that his luck changed for the better. Prior to Tar Valon, 8 wins in a row was a good streak for him (info from the passage where he had to get out of Tar Valon - previously quoted)

Anubis, Mat won a lot more money than he needed in order to get out of Tar Valon (he had plenty of money left over after paying the fare). Actually, saying 'a lot more money than he needed' is an understatement...even after paying the fare, he was rich....so by winning much much more than needed, this rules out 'that he won that much money because he needed it then and there' (though I'm not sure about a long term argument...would have to research it)

brother of Battles: 2004-07-07

Mat's luck is strickly Ta'averan. Take a close look at these facts:

1. Lanfear took no part in the stealling of ter'angreal from the tower when the 13 BA ran.

2. Mat has always been lucky, but just like Rand's channaling or Perrin's wolf abilities, it just took time for it to manifest.

3. When Rand was going to use a Portal Stone to transport everyone to Toman Head, Mat was going to flip a coin to decide to do it or not. The Flipped coin was flipped with Mat facing Rand and Rand facing Mat. The coin flipped through the air and landed on its side and then had to roll away in order to land on either heads or tails.

To be a little more to the point, maybe Mat's luck needed something to triggger the ability to grow. As with Perrin and the wolves, Perrin first needed to come into close contact with them. Maybe the combinational factor's of the dagger, the risky healing done in the tower, and the unfinnised weave Lanfear was doing to Mat caused his luck to manifest into what it is now.

Brendan Reborn: 2004-07-09

Hey guys, good to be back (vacation)

Brother of battles:

** Mat's luck is strickly Ta'averan.**

I disagree. If his luck was strickly "ta'averen" (<--lol), then wouldn't Rand have more luck than Mat? Surely Rand is a stronger ta'veren then mat or perrin, and even stronger than artur hawkwing. I assume I don't need quotes to back that up. Since Rand is stronger, wouldn't it make more sense that he had better luck? Though, I do agree with your statement about his luck being linked to the dagger. It seems more probable that his luck is just his "thing", just as slayer can enter TAR in the flesh with no withholding information to prove he is a dreamwalker or anything. I don't think this was a subject in which RJ was thinking to explore, (where mat's luck came from) I merely thought that it just was because the wheel needed it.

Saldean Farm Boy: 2004-08-03

The pattern weaves Ta'averan into the pattern to accomplish a goal. The effects of being Ta'averan are not the same for everyone. The three we know Rand May and Perrin are all effected differently.

Rand - Twists chance on a large scale, people fall out of windows and are not harmed, but slip in a puddle and drown. People say what he needs to know when they are around him. What he needs to happen usually happens.

Perrin - He attracts followers. He returned to his home and became a Lord aganist his will. People want to follow him reguardless of how he feels about it. I haven't seen an expample of him being "lucky" or twisting chance.

Mat - Twists chance in his favor. The dice fall his way, he turns just so and an arrow barley misses him. He has followers too but more because of his battle skill than him being charmastic. Sure his being Ta'avaren put him in the posistion of leadership in the band but Mat's ta'avaren leans to him twisting chance on a smaller scale.

Chrono: 2004-09-06

I agree with saldean farm boy, Mat's (not May's) luck is one of his Ta'veran things!

: 2004-09-15

Here are some intersting quotes (they pretty much contradict each other left and right, they're just some things to consider on both angles):

"Nynaeve carried the smoothed out pages to the table and set them down. She hesitated before spreading the others out and running her finger down one page, then the next. "Here's one Mat would enjoy," she said in a voice much too light and airy. "Item. A carved cluster of six spotted dice, joined at the corners, less than two inches across. Use unknown, save that channeling through it seems to suspend chance in some way, or twist it." She began to read aloud. "'Tossed coins presented the same face every time, and in one test landed balanced on edge one hundred times in a row. One thousand tosses of the dice produced five crowns one thousand times.'" She gave a forced laugh. "Mat would love that."

It could have been a test to see if he was the Dragon Reborn, since the ability to channel would have a 180-degree repercussion (it would do the exact opposite, so it would be extremely easy to figure out if it worked or not.) Maybe the other ter'angreals didn't have such blatant results and repercussions, so she decided to take a chance and use it. And anyway, how could luck with coins and dice harm her?

And something really weird I noticed was when in TSR, Mat pulls out a coin (a gold Tar Valon mark) to decide whether to go to Emond's Field or stay - it lands on the Flame (stay.) He later pulls out the SAME COIN to help Rand decide whether to take the right path or the left path - it lands on the Flame again (left.) He pulls it out A THIRD TIME to decide whether to follow Rand or wait for him at the Tree of Life. It landed BALANCED ON EDGE. (But I'm also completely sure that Rand was the one who tipped it over to land on the head.)

On the other token, the ter-angreal helped with gambling only. In TDR Mat's luck even showed while searching for the three girls. He just by chance walked into an inn when he and Thom were all for stopping, and, poof, found the person he overheard talking about killing Elayne. Thom happens to get sick and Mat just randomly decides he won't put up with Thom's cough anymore and half-drags the man to the Wise One. Who, by the way, just HAPPENED to have the three girls drop by at her house three hous before Mat came in. And in TFOH Mat's luck rubbed off in battle. You could argue and say that it's a result of him being ta'veren, but when Nynaeve was reading about the item, it just said that it twisted the luck for channelers, not ta'veren.

"He knew he was lucky. He could remember always being lucky. But somehow, his memories of Emond's Field did not show him as lucky as he had been since leaving. Certainly he had gotten away with a great deal, but he could remember also being caught in pranks he had been sure would succeed. His mother had always seemed to know what he was up to, and Nynaeve able to see through whatever defenses he put up. But it was not just since leaving the Two Rivers that he had become lucky. The luck had come once he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth. He remembered playing at dice back home, with a sharp-eyed, skinny man who worked for a merchant come down from Baerlon to buy tabac. He remembered the strapping his father had given him, too, on learning Mat owed the man a silver mark and four pence." - Someone asked for that quote.

Also, he isn't just lucky. It has to do with the One Power or ta'veren, take your pick. But either way, it sure as hell isn't a natural thing like Perrin being a wolfbrother (yes that's natural, it's just as natural as a woman or man being born with the One Power in them - nothing CAUSES it) and Rand's channeling (again, it's natural, because, again, nothing CAUSES it.) But Mat's luck is CAUSED by something (I can't stress that word enough.)

In TDR, Mat had gambled with a man who was using weighted dice, so that the result would forever be three crowns and two roses ("folk become suspicious if you always throw the king"). When it was Mat's turn... "He spilled the dice onto the tabletop. They bounced oddly. He felt - something - shifting. It was as if his luck had gone wild. The room seemed to be writhing around him, tugging at the dice with threads. For some reason he wanted to look at the door, but he kept his eyes on the dice. They came to rest. Five crowns. Conar's eyes looked ready to pop out of his head." The dice rolling in his head could be dismissed as a sort of hypothetical feeling, like when you feel someone's eyes on you, but this quote prooves his luck really is unnatural.

"Ta'veren: a person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny." I put that quote to remind you all that being ta'veren doesn't grant you any skills or talents.

I don't think Selene did anything. I think that, because of her power, her anger and irritation was strong enough for Mat to feel a little uneasy, but that's it.

As for the wild streak of luck he had in Tar Valon, I think that was just because his luck's been lying dormant for so long (and I think that was the dagger's fault, because being suspicious always makes a person think too damn much. And plus that night in Tar Valon was probably as random as you can get.)

Mat has always been lucky, like it was mentioned in TGH.

Callandor: 2004-09-16

**Maybe the other ter'angreals didn't have such blatant results and repercussions, so she decided to take a chance and use it. And anyway, how could luck with coins and dice harm her?**

Lanfear did not have the ter'angreal. The original 13 Black Ajah that left Tar Valon under Liandrin took it. As far as we know, they have had no contact with her, and make no mention of losing said ter'angreal.

So, unless you want to believe Lanfear found out about this useless ter'angreal, stole it, used it, then returned it, all without them noticing. That is quite a leap of faith.

**And something really weird I noticed was when in TSR, Mat pulls out a coin (a gold Tar Valon mark) to decide whether to go to Emond's Field or stay - it lands on the Flame (stay.) He later pulls out the SAME COIN to help Rand decide whether to take the right path or the left path - it lands on the Flame again (left.) He pulls it out A THIRD TIME to decide whether to follow Rand or wait for him at the Tree of Life. It landed BALANCED ON EDGE. (But I'm also completely sure that Rand was the one who tipped it over to land on the head.)**

Ok.... Mat doesn't have need to use coin in the Waste. He is lucky. And, yes, Rand did turn over the coin the third time.

Where's the special clue here?

**On the other token, the ter-angreal helped with gambling only. In TDR Mat's luck even showed while searching for the three girls. He just by chance walked into an inn when he and Thom were all for stopping, and, poof, found the person he overheard talking about killing Elayne. Thom happens to get sick and Mat just randomly decides he won't put up with Thom's cough anymore and half-drags the man to the Wise One. Who, by the way, just HAPPENED to have the three girls drop by at her house three hous before Mat came in. And in TFOH Mat's luck rubbed off in battle. You could argue and say that it's a result of him being ta'veren, but when Nynaeve was reading about the item, it just said that it twisted the luck for channelers, not ta'veren.**

Luck for channelers, and even more specialized

--- ONLY WHEN CHANNELED ~INTO~ IT ---

**But Mat's luck is CAUSED by something (I can't stress that word enough.)**

Indeed, but to stress semantics, ta'vereness is a natural process of the Pattern ;)

**The dice rolling in his head could be dismissed as a sort of hypothetical feeling, like when you feel someone's eyes on you, but this quote prooves his luck really is unnatural.**

To you. In the real world. The force of ta'veren augmenting the situation to need, is not unnatural. It is perfectly natural in RJ's world.

**I put that quote to remind you all that being ta'veren doesn't grant you any skills or talents.**

And I'll point out, that Mat's luck is a characteristic of himself; not a talent or skill since he has it, and cannot improve on it by force or training. His luck works when he needs something, even something he does not know he needs.

That is ta'veren.

damane: 2004-10-01

(No matter how hard I try, I always turn into a walking debate.)

I found the coin strange because if you'll read the quote about the dice ter-angreal again, it begins to talk of a coin that always lands on the same face, or balanced on edge. Four times he pulled out the same coin from a pocket full of gold: Twice it landed on the same face - okay, that's luck. Twice more it landed balanced on edge, to be flipped over by Rand. Yes; his luck kicked in to prevent him from doing something that would be unfortunate on his part, but you could go far enough to say that, because it was impossible to land on the other face, the only other option would be balanced on edge.

My theory is that his luck is caused by the Shadar Logoth dagger. Simple, clean, and believable. His luck, really, only started when he got the dagger. I don't think it's ta'veren - his games in the taverns have no affect on the world whatsoever. Also, he didn't need the money he got when he was in Tar Valon - he already had enough money from his bet with Galad and Gawyn, and he already had some money to begin with in the first place. So really, the whole Tar Valon thing wasn't a necessity, for those who claim it was - it was just a luxury for our Mat. I think that Lanfear was really putting all she had into betting that Mat would come at the promise of glory, so I don't think she had anything else planned.

fistandantilus: 2004-10-01

Why does Mat's luck have to have been caused by an outside influence? If I remember correctly, there are several references through out the entire series as to how lucky Mat was as a kid. I don't know if a person is ta'veren from birth or only at a point where the pattern needs one, but Mat is just exceptionally lucky. His Ta'verenness just enhances his innate lucky ability.

Callandor: 2004-10-02

**Four times he pulled out the same coin from a pocket full of gold:**

Mat doesn't keep gold in his pockets; he has a belt pouch. That coin was only in his pocket, because he used it at the Portal Stone, and from there went directly to Rhuidean.

**Also, he didn't need the money he got when he was in Tar Valon - he already had enough money from his bet with Galad and Gawyn, and he already had some money to begin with in the first place.**

What? He had barely any money.

**TITLE: Dragon Reborn

CHAPTER: 20 - Visitations

"Two silver marks and a handful of copper," he muttered. "I won't get far on that." Once it would have seemed a small fortune to him, but that had been before he left Emond's Field.**

**TITLE: Dragon Reborn

CHAPTER: 20 - Visitations

The Amyrlin gave a small laugh with little amusement in it. "With two silver marks and a handful of copper, my son? *Your dice would need to be very lucky indeed to buy all the food you'll need in the next few days.* We do not Heal people, then let them waste our efforts by dying while they still need care. In addition to which, you may yet need more Healing. "

"More? You said you had Healed me. Why should I need more?"**

**TITLE: Dragon Reborn

CHAPTER: 24 - Scouting and Discoveries

"I will wager," he said, "two silver marks to two from each of you that I can beat both of you at once, just the way I said. You can't have fairer odds than that. There are two of you, and one of me, so two to one are fair odds." He almost laughed aloud at the consternation on their faces.**

So after his fight, he had 6 silver, and a bunch of copper.

What a lot of money to live on outside Tar Valon.

Lan: 2004-10-03

Ive thought a little about what you've all written, and thought Id put my own spin on things. For starters, I have to say that the idea that Mat's luck saved itself up while he was sick seems inane. Maybe Im wrong, but I don't think luck works like that. That said, Mat doesn't remember that much about what's happened since he's carried the dagger, and for the most part, on the trip to Caemlyn, he was with Rand and alone. He didn't trust people enough to go dice with them, so we have no evidence that his luck started then. We do have a mention of good luck in Fal Dara, where 8 throws would win in a row. Then he goes to Tar Valon, where he gets healed of the dagger. After the healing, the Amyrlin talks to him and says she wants him to stay, maybe as long as six months or a year, in order to make sure that he would suffer no ill effects, or a relapse. Then in TV, he goes on a spree, loading up, and commenting on his luck never being as good as that. So the options, as I see it, are that the luck came with the dagger and needed time to mature, or that Lanfear did something to him. This is of course assuming that his lucky streak comes from something outside of himself. Now, at the time the Black Ajah left the tower, I believe they were working for Be'lal. This is not to say that they could not have given the dice Ter'Angreal to Lanfear, but I don't think it likely, as she seems terribly contemptuous of current Aes Sedai, and her fellow Chosen. Even then assuming she had the Ter'Angreal, she did not have a chance to use it on Mat. I don't agree with this idea. I feel that if his luck came from an outside source, as I feel it must have, then it came from the dagger. The only thing that's really lacking from this theory, is a why. Why would having the dagger improve one's luck? I haven't found anything that points to it, nor away from it. In any case, my vote, as it is, is for the dagger as being the outside source for Mat's improved luck. Hope that didn't confuse anyone :)

Callandor: 2004-10-03

**Now, at the time the Black Ajah left the tower, I believe they were working for Be'lal. This is not to say that they could not have given the dice Ter'Angreal to Lanfear, but I don't think it likely, as she seems terribly contemptuous of current Aes Sedai, and her fellow Chosen.**

They most likely did leave on Be'lal's order to help out in Tear.

No, they did not run into Lanfear and hand her the ter'angreal. They make no mention of meeting her, dealing with her, or having the ter'angreal disappear or using it. As far as we know, they still have it, and have never lost sight of it.

Oatman: 2004-10-03

"He spilled the dice onto the tabletop. They bounced oddly. He felt - somthing - shifting. It was as if his luck had gone wild. The room seemed to be writhing around him, tugging at the dice with threads."

Thanks to the anonymous poster for the quote.

This demonstrates IMHO the pure ta'veren nature of Mats luck. When he roles the dice he can actually FEEL the pattern shifting to give him a winning throw. A similar thing was said about Artur Hawkwing, that when you were around him you could feel the pattern shifting and altering chance. The reason Mat could feel it on this occasion and no other is that the pattern had to twist chance more than usual because the dice in questionn were weighted. Disprove that evidence!

Also I would like to once again point out that the dice ter'angreal only suspended chance, and this would mean that Mat would continually role the same role, not inevitably role a winning role.

Davian93: 2004-10-05

****This demonstrates IMHO the pure ta'veren nature of Mats luck. When he roles the dice he can actually FEEL the pattern shifting to give him a winning throw. A similar thing was said about Artur Hawkwing, that when you were around him you could feel the pattern shifting and altering chance. The reason Mat could feel it on this occasion and no other is that the pattern had to twist chance more than usual because the dice in questionn were weighted. Disprove that evidence!****

If you agree with this...join my faction immediately. We believe...Mat's luck is ta'veren nothing more. Davian93

solomonrex: 2004-10-18

No, this proves that his luck is POWER BASED purely. If it was ta'veren, the loaded dice would just 'happen' to fail. If it's power based, whatever Lanfear did to Mat's head would have to draw on OP, the pattern, whatever, to fight the dice AFTER they had been thrown. An OP based luck would have to affect the pattern AFTER the roll, the ta'veren 'luck' (which doesn't exist except in paeons' eyes) would just set the pattern up ahead of time for the right result- like the gambler thought he had loaded dice, but didn't. Rand and Perrin never hear dice in their head and never will, because they aren't artifically lucky, they're just stuck in a web of the pattern. They can't just play any random game and win- but Mat does all the time. Because the pattern doesn't need him to win any particular game, it just need him to be altered by Lanfear.

Callandor: 2004-10-18

**Rand and Perrin never hear dice in their head and never will, because they aren't artifically lucky, they're just stuck in a web of the pattern.**

1. Lanfear did not have the dice ter'angreal.

2. The dice ter'angreal only works when being channeled into.

3. There is no evidence that using a ter'angreal can be the basis of establishing a permanent OP usage like what you are saying Mat has. In other words, there is no example of a ter'angreal being used in a Warder bond, and that Warder having the effects of the ter'angreal. Doesn't work that way.

Oatman: 2004-10-19

"like the gambler thought he had loaded dice, but didn't."

umm.... loaded dice are simply weighted. You can't physically 'load' dice before you role. There is no example of any person using the one pattern in order to directly manipulate the pattern as you have suggested, and if the one power was used at all to flip the dice as you have also suggested, this situation wouldn't have been different from any other, as the same amount of power would have been used regardless of wether the dice were weighted or not. Also unless the power had been directed at Mat, he shouldnt have felt anything anyway.

Jalt Varyd: 2004-10-20

Well... this seems to be a surprisingly controversial topic. The next "Who killed Asmodean?", perhaps? I just read through the entire thread (no easy task), and there are a few points I'd like to make. Most of them are things that have already been mentioned, but seem to be being ignored or forgotten- and will most likely continue to be, but oh well... ;)

1) Mat's luck is NOT just related to coins, dice, and other games of chance; it affects anything with a random element. As I recall, a flash of lightning "just happened" to light up the Healer's home where Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne were staying when Mat first entered Tear.

2) The effect of the ter'angreal is not the same as Mat's luck, at least as I understand it. It *suspends* chance, so that the same roll will come up 1000 times in a row, whatever that roll may be; Mat's luck *twists* chance, increasing his odds of winning. If the object of the game was to alternate heads and tails, that's what Mat would do; the ter'angreal would still make a coin land on the same side every time.

3) The primary chance-related side effect of ta'veren shaping of the pattern is an exaggeration of probability- that which is unlikely becomes likely. It is neither positive nor negative. Clearly this is NOT the source of Mat's luck.

4) The examples I've seen used to support the possibility of the "Lanfear with the Dice in the Sick Room" theory are: Padan Fain, Isam/Luc, Gray Men, Trollocs, Warders, and the Oath Rod. Fain was forged into the Hound by Ba'alzamon, or perhaps even the Dark One himself, then Mordeth was added to the mix, and it wasn't until he got his hands on the dagger that he became the uniquely powerful little monster we've all come to know. We can't be sure (yet) how exactly Isam/Luc came to be, but it almost certainly required a difficult process involving the direct attention of the Dark One. I'm fairly sure that Gray Men have nothing to do with the One Power, since they weren't especially surprising to the White Tower during the time of the Forsaken's imprisonment; most likely, they require either Fades or the Dark One to produce, and they certainly have to be willing to undergo the process. Trollocs, of course, are a species created through genetic engineering by Aginor, not something that can be done to an individual. The Oath Rod only works on those who can channel (Much like the 13-13... interesting.), is ended of the target looses that ability, and requires contact with the target; it also produces an immediate, noticeable effect- one can "feel" the oaths. The warder bond is the closest parallel; it is basically permanent, works on anyone, enhances the abilities of the target, and can be made by any channeler who knows the weave. It is a difficult weave, takes a certain amount of time, requires contact with the target, and has immediate, noticeable effects. I have seen no evidence that a lasting-effect weave that can be cast quickly and from a distance is possible, nor any good reason why a luck-weave wouldn't be used more often. (Another possible comparison is Compulsion, but I'm fairly sure the Medallion would destroy a tied-off weave.)

The timing does point toward the dagger, but why wouldn't Fain have exceptional luck if that was the cause? He seems to have fairly effective control of the taint; one would think he would use any advantage he can get from it.

In my opinion, the most reasonable theory is that Mat's luck is innate- Mat is a Gambler, either the way Birigitte is an Archer or the way Min is a Viewer, Hurin is a Sniffer, and Perrin is a Wolfbrother (caps for emphasis of exceptional significance). I especially like the thought of Luck as one of the lost gifts, but I'll admit there is no evidence what-so-ever of this.

I don't have access to the books at the moment, and this may be full of blatant inaccuracies. I'm sure I don't have to ask you to point them all out to me... ;)

fistandantilus: 2004-10-22

I submitted this reply under the "Mat's luck is Ta'veren" theory:

**Everyone seems to think that Mats luck doesn't really begin until after the Healing. However, I have found a quote that may prove this wrong.

Title: The Great Hunt

Chapter 3 "Friends and Enemies" Pb pg 32

"What's the matter, Rand?" Mat asked. "You're as white as your shirt. Hey! Where did you get those clothes? You turning Shienaran? Maybe I'll buy myself a coat like that, and a fine shirt." **He shook his coat pocket, producing a clink of coins. "I seem to have luck with the dice. I can hardly touch them without winning."**

Now it seems to me that "can hardly touch them without winning" means a significantly higher amount of wins than losses. Now this is not as lucky as he was in Tar Valon, but there he had need of the money, this game was just for fun.**

So his luck started before the meeting with "Selene," so we have to assume that either it is an innate Ta'veren ability, as I believe, or else caused by the Dagger, which come on, how is an evil, tainted Dagger with the intent of spreading said evil across the world to destroy all mankind going to transform a person's luck? It makes no sense.

UberAshaman: 2004-12-07

I think his luck is ta'varen and/or something to do with his past lives.in TSR, (Sory, don't have exact quote) when Mat meets the *elfinns, they call him 'gambler'.

Just my two cents

Jiana: 2004-12-09

Oh, my, but this is a long one. Very intriguing though. I must admit that I have not read every reply, as they are extensive and making my eyes and head hurt. However, I did see one thing mentioned more than twice: Mat's medallion affecting Lanfear's channeling on him. This is really bugging me, and I may be incorrect (I'm sure if I am I will learn of it :) ), but Lanfear's channeling at Mat happened in TDR, after he was healed of the dagger, right? Okay, so Mat didn't acquire the medallion until TSR, when he went into Rhuidean with Rand. So how can a medallion that he didn't even possess until one book later protect him when Lanfear tries her trick, whatever it may have been. Mat's luck, IMO, is not CAUSED by his being ta'veren, but is PART of his being ta'veren. Mat's luckiest moments also seem to be based on need; as was said, when he was trying to leave Tar Valon, it wasn't a game... he NEEDED to get out of the city in order to keep from being put on a leash. And I have never believed that it was only his desire to leave that allowed him to do so. I think that the Pattern did not want him to stay, because if he had, he could not have affected the world in the way he has. Just an idea, but maybe THAT'S why his luck seems stronger at times. The Pattern is taking his luck and using it to advantage, and it has nothing to do with either the dagger OR anyone channeling at him with a ter'angreal. Rand, Mat, and Perrin were all pre-disposed to each of their traits: channeling, wolfbrother, and luck. I agree that the Pattern twists (or tweaks, if you will) those traits when it needs to, in order to fill the need for a certain thing or event.

Asmodean: 2005-03-30

I can officialy state that Lanfear is NOT resposible for Mat' luck...all the logical points stated above can prove that..but to sum it up..Mat has always..repeat..ALWAYS been lucky...just not as lucky as he tends to get over time..him being Tav.only increases his luck...the dice in the skull thing(that sets his luck to the max)only happens just b4 crucial moments for Mat...if u cant think of the examples I am refering to..then read it all again..haha...so yea..Mat's luck..a original innate trait enhanced by his bending of the pattern...he can't control it..it is random..if his luck was the result to some OP trick..there would prolly be a way to control it at will

ssjx7squall: 2005-03-30

Guys its probably nothing to do with mats luck but in my opinion it has nothing to do with lanfear, in fact i found a vauge referance to mat already being lucky in book two the great hunt. dont know page but he is playing dice with some bordermen in a room with perrin and loial when rand walks in. He starts to quit but they tell him he cant quit while hes winning. This maybe to far back and to vauge to be valid but just somethin i found while rereadin the series. I tend to lean toward the beleif that his luck is brought about by being taveren or what ever and that it may also have something to do with him being a general later on in the series. To me there is not enough info in the area to come up with a concrete idea that makes perfect sense

dedoublya: 2005-05-20

Ok, this thread was so long, I didn't actually read it all, so this might already have been addressed.

Ok, it's all very well to say Lanfear's the cause of all Mat's luck. But why? Why would she do this, I think motive is as important as proof here. Personally, I can't see a single reason why she would do this. I don't believe that she did. It's all too implausable.

solomonrex: 2005-06-09

Here's why I still cling to this seemingly unpopular theory:

Ta'veren does not equal lucky, as neither Rand nor Perrin appear lucky like Mat.

Lanfear did SOMETHING. Explain that.

The dagger has nothing to do with luck, everything with evil.

Mat isn't inherently lucky: he remembered being less lucky, and nicking the dagger wasn't lucky, because he almost died.

There may be more than one dice ter'angreal, and the AS may not understand it anyway.

RJ adds the bit about the ter'angreal and Lanfear close in the book to Mat's lucky binge in TV.

Mat hears dice in his head, this isn't natural, it smells of OP being used in a way it shouldn't be.

Lanfear made him lucky so that he would survive, because Rand needs him and Rand was Lanfear's guy. She also visits Perrin for no earthly reason, and does nothing. Why? Why not?

The chapter headings, for perrin's sake!

Anubis: 2005-06-10

**Ta'veren does not equal lucky, as neither Rand nor Perrin appear lucky like Mat.

Lanfear did SOMETHING. Explain that. **

1. Taveren does equal lucky. Rand is the luckiest sob alive and how many times have we heard that him and LTT made luck like others minted coin?

2. Yeah Lanfear put the uber nastiness on Matt but then Matt got LUCKY and the Amryllin showed up and interrupted it.

Tristin: 2005-06-10

It was either compulsion, torture or feeling him up with the one power...

JakOShadows: 2005-06-10

I really don't think Lanfear gave him his luck. He was already lucky before that too. Look at tEotW, when they have to fight all those trollocs that are chasing them and manage to survive; you wouldn't call that luck. And Mat has always been considered lucky even in the Two Rivers, so it has be something he's born with. I'll come back with quotes later, I don't have time now to look them up.

Anubis: 2005-06-10

And besides, if it were a standing weave of the One Power the medallion would have interrupted it and Matt would no longer be lucky.

Callandor: 2005-06-10

**Lanfear did SOMETHING. Explain that.**

There's a difference:

She started to do something. She was obviously interrupted. Was it checking Mat to see if he was fully Healed? Was it making sure his hair was straight? Was it taking his temperature an unpleasant way?

fistandantilus: 2005-06-17

"Mat isn't inherently lucky: he remembered being less lucky..."

Was Rand as lucky as a kid as he is now? Or Perrin? I'd be willing to bet that until Artur Hawkwing started moving events, he seemed just like any other kid. As we have seen, it wasn't until the three ta'veren started affecting lives and events that their inherent ta'verenness began showing. So yes, Mat wasn't as lucky as a kid, but how often did he need extreme luck? He did't.

Traveller: 2005-07-17

I agree- I think that he was naturally lucky because he was taveren, but that Lanfear used the dice ter'angreal on him when she visited him in the Tower. This meant that he was much more lucky afterwards, and heard the dice rolling in his head (this never happened before their meeting). However I do think it is possible that Lanfear meant to do something else but didn't have time to as she was interrupted (perhaps transfer all his luck to herself), but surely if this was true, she would have finished the job later.

Anubis: 2005-09-14

Time to stab this horrible theory while its laying on the ground gasping for breath....

Question: In the Dragon Reborn, Lanfear visits Mat as he is recuperating from his one power surgery over the dagger. At one point she stretches out her hand towards him and he feels a tingle going over him, somebody interrupts them, and she turns her head and sobs, at about the same time a member of Black Ajah stole angreal and ter'angreal out of the tower cache, one of which was a ter'angreal that was known to have some effect on chance. So it was about this time that Mat's really really really weird luck and the dice rolling in his head began, is this a connection or coincidence.

Jordan: That is a coincidence. When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true. It wasn't a gift from Lanfear, though.

**hehe, another theory busted, and a very interesting answer. I am going for shadar logoth now*

LANFEAR DID NOT CAUSE MATS LUCK STRAIGHT FROM RJs MOUTH.

stb: 2005-09-16

OK OK I originally posted this theory, and I know when I've been beaten, so I'll just come right out and say it....

Lanfear was not responsible for Mat's luck... But I still say that it MUST have been caused in some way by the dice ter'angreal. Can anyone think of any occurances where Mat may have met one of the thirteen BA sisters prior to his being healed. And why would RJ (in all of his infinite wisdom)make a point of telling us that this ter'angreal exists AND use it for Mat's chapter heading if it has nothing at all to do with him?

Callandor: 2005-09-19

**And why would RJ (in all of his infinite wisdom)make a point of telling us that this ter'angreal exists AND use it for Mat's chapter heading if it has nothing at all to do with him?**

1. It's added detail to the world.

2.It's NOT Mat's chapter icon. The dice ter'angreal is six dice linked together at the corners -- Mat's icon is five dice, which it's only implied are linked together, and could easily be dice that have been put on a flat surface and simply looking at an angle.

Anubis: 2005-09-20

rj gets a twisted pleasure from watching people come up with erronious theories. the easiest way to get people to do this is to sprinkle the books with random small details that dont really mean anything (and a few that do). the dice ter angreal is obviously one of them.

solomonrex: 2005-11-03

I haven't given Callandor grief in a while, so let me say, I think there's another dice ter'angreal.

No proof. :P

solomonrex: 2005-11-03

So, in what way is it true?

Callandor: 2005-11-03

**I haven't given Callandor grief in a while, so let me say, I think there's another dice ter'angreal.**

Who gives a crap if there is? Lanfear didn't use it to give Mat his luck, if there is another or not. Read RJ's quote again.

Random Man: 2005-11-10

In TDR, shortly after Mat is Healed his "luck" spree begins, he starts to think about his luck. In his POV, he thinks back and realizes it didn't really exist before Shadar Logoth. He remembers dicing with a merchant's guard back home and his father punishing him because he owed the man a large sum of money. Mat has not always been lucky.

The Aes Sedai spoke a number of times about possible side effects from holding the tainted dagger for so long. One side effect of being severed from the dagger, in conjunction with being ta'veren, was his luck.

Bayle: 2005-11-10

Wow what a debate this has been... I am not trying to bring back anything, just gratz-ing on the good read.

Callandor, just a quick note. You tend to say Mat's luck is simply because he is Ta'veren, that luck, i.e. bending the pattern to a "lucky" outcome, is typical of all ta'veren. I agree with this. But, wouldn't you say that Mat's luck is something more? Where Rand and Perrin bend the pattern to their own benefit often, and Mat does the same, don't you think the "dice" and his fortune are something else? I really think the Dice in his head, along with his gambling is a Talent of some kind. In KoD, he is called by Thom "the luckiest man in the world" and he even loses in a gamble (though losing is actually the "luck" he needed). I think that Mat's luck is something bigger than just being ta'veren, or perhaps it is this:

Mat's Talent is being able to conciously know when luck will be a factor, via the intensity of the dice in his head. But I definitely think it is something above and beyond simply being Ta'Veren. If that was all it was, perrin and rand would both be good gamblers, and though I don't have a quote atm, there have been times when both have admitted how bad they are at it. Mat, on the other hand, has something much more that works with the pattern when it needs to, and works even when he's not "being ta'veren".

My other theory is that the "Dice Ter'angreal" was an object made to imitate this Talent. and THAT is why they were mentioned together by RJ, as a red herring, but also because Mat's Talent operates in the same way as the Ter'Angreal.

Callandor: 2005-11-11

**Callandor, just a quick note. You tend to say Mat's luck is simply because he is Ta'veren, that luck, i.e. bending the pattern to a "lucky" outcome, is typical of all ta'veren. I agree with this. But, wouldn't you say that Mat's luck is something more? Where Rand and Perrin bend the pattern to their own benefit often, and Mat does the same, don't you think the "dice" and his fortune are something else?**

Dice, maybe. His luck, not a chance.

**If that was all it was, perrin and rand would both be good gamblers, and though I don't have a quote atm, there have been times when both have admitted how bad they are at it.**

Again, look above where there is a situation around Rand where Aiel start throwing all perfect tosses. Ta'veren forces.

**Mat, on the other hand, has something much more that works with the pattern when it needs to, and works even when he's not "being ta'veren".**

See, that's the problem. Mat is always ta'veren, until he either dies or the Wheel just decides he's done enough. He's never ta'veren for 15 minutes, then not ta'verne for 3 hours, then ta'veren again.

Tamyrlin: 2005-11-12

Callandor, this is a good question, and I disagree with you.

"See, that's the problem. Mat is always ta'veren, until he either dies or the Wheel just decides he's done enough. He's never ta'veren for 15 minutes, then not ta'verne for 3 hours, then ta'veren again."

The bending of the Pattern that comes from being ta'veren, do you have a quote to prove that ta'veren are constantly bending the Pattern to their will? The bending of the Pattern seems to happen at moments, and can last for periods of time. Moiraine explains that Ta'veren are forced down a path by the Pattern (as with every other soul that isn't Ta'veren) at times, and at times Ta'veren bend the Pattern to their will. That suggests to me that they "power" of bending the Pattern is not constant.

Callandor: 2005-11-12

**The bending of the Pattern that comes from being ta'veren, do you have a quote to prove that ta'veren are constantly bending the Pattern to their will?**

Are you kidding me, Tam?

**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 36 - Web of the Pattern

"Yes, that's it. But sometimes the change chooses you, or the Wheel chooses it for you. And sometimes the Wheel bends a life-thread, or several threads, in such a way that all the surrounding threads are forced to swirl around it, and those force other threads, and those still others, and on and on. That first bending to make the Web, that is ta'veren, and there is nothing you can do to change it, not until the Pattern itself changes. The Web - ta'maral'ailen, it's called - can last for weeks, or for years. It can take in a town, or even the whole Pattern. Artur Hawkwing was ta'veren. So was Lews Therin Kinslayer, for that matter, I suppose." He let out a booming chuckle. "Elder Haman would be proud of me. He always droned on, and the books about traveling were much more interesting, but I did listen sometimes."**

Constantly bending the Pattern to their will is a stretch, but they are always ta'veren until the Wheel decides to stop it. They don't swtich on and off, on off, on off again and again. It's constant until the changes are complete.

And you have to ask, if Mat has continually been ta'veren since roughly the start of the series, what hasn't been an act of the Pattern? What hasn't been fate seen at first to be chance.

**That suggests to me that they "power" of bending the Pattern is not constant.**

Maybe or maybe not -- but ta'veren are always ta'veren until their tasks are complete, until the alterations demanded by the Pattern and the Wheel are complete. Sure, not every single event in Mat's life is an effect of being a ta'veren (the meal he eats for breakfast probably isn't -- but it has been), but Mat is always a ta'veren.

Hence, he can't have something that is luck or a talent that works when he's "not being ta'veren." He's always ta'veren since he became ta'veren. It's continuous.

JakOShadows: 2005-11-12

Good point Tam. Like when Rand has no choice of what to do, at Falme when he has to pull out the dragon banner, its like no matter what happened in Falme before then or even after the horn was stolen, Rand would raise the dragon banner there or die. But at the end of LoC, and even in CoS for a bit, he could have his will with anyone he wants. He would talk with them and they would happen to bend right to his will. So it does definitely bend around him sometimes and force him at others. But both are still definitely ta'veren affects. But I'm curious as to what happens after they fulfilled their purpose. For example, if Rand lives past the LB, which he might not, but if he does, since is purpose is done would he still be ta'veren. I know mat and perrin might have some more purpose to serve, but Rand doesn't seem to have much else to do. His purpose ends with the LB it seems. So would that lessen his ta'veren effects if there's no way he has to be forced or be able to bend the pattern in anyway? Or maybe it is the fact that if he has no choice he is forced, but otherwise if there is wiggle room the pattern will do what he wants and help him out? But it has to either be one or the other and can't be an absence of them? I just wanted to throw those ideas out there. I still haven't thought on them much myself.

Tamyrlin: 2005-11-12

Why couldn't Mat have talents other than being Ta'veren, that could be attributed to something other than his ta'vereness? Why does his luck have to be a factor of Ta'veren, at all times? The Wheel can do whatever it wants. Simply being Ta'veren does not do everything the Wheel needs of a specific thread. The Wheel needed a channeling Ta'veren, because Rand as a non-channeling Ta'veren would not be enough. The Wheel needed a Perrin to become a wolf-brother and Ta'veren, because Perrin as Ta'veren without his wolf abilities was not enough. Why can't the same be said for Mat? Ta'veren doesn't mean things go your way. Threads spinning around you isn't creating luck that turns your way all of the time. Sometimes the Pattern weaves the Ta'veren forcing him/her down a path, bending him/her as with any soul. Why can't Mat have a talent of luck or chance that works for him even in the times the Pattern attempts to force him down a path, almost countering the Pattern's bend of Mat's thread? I don't know if this makes much sense...it is late.

JakOShadows: 2005-11-13

Tam, I was using those as extreme examples. Like with the Athan Miere, they would have served him not matter what happened, so he could choose by his actions which way he wants them to serve. That was my point. Of course it doesn't always work that way. Sometimes it might be half and half. Half forcing him down a road, half his choice and twist of chance taking him where he goes. And it might not necessarily be a consciuos choice, but when I said what he wants, I meant it was more or less based off a choice of his. Like what the pattern would interpret as what he wants. And so when it is half and half, he is not forcing people to his will, nor is he forced to go one path. That was the point I was trying to make.

But I see your point about Mat getting lucky when he is forced down a road. Like with the seanchan, he was dang lucky he didn't end up in a worse situation than he is now, but he was still forced to marry the DotNM if he was property or escaped with her hostage. And RJ seems to stress the fact that he gets what he needs before he knows he needs it. So you makes use and gets lucky more than the other characters ever do. But then, I've notice he puts himself in situation which require it too. If you think about it, Perrin and Rand have not been capture and had to plan an escape from hostile territory. Nor have they ever played at dice near as much as Mat. It seemed like everyone else in the band could feel his pull too. So he obviously had great need of them. And the same also happens with Perrin, when he feels Rand's pull in LoC. So the same thing happened when Rand was in need of help. And now, they are all feeling the same thing, being in different places, completed tied down, and them needing each other to survive in the near future. So it could be that Mat put himself in that position more. I think that's what I like most about his storyline, he always seems to put more on the line when it comes to finding a solution to something. So its like he's forcing the pattern to work for him, whether it is his choice or something he is forced to do. And its not through any secret talent, just by being ta'veren.

snakes-n-foxes: 2005-11-13

A quote from Knife of Dreams on the effects of Ta'veren :

WITHIN THE STONE (Page 440)

"What else was happening in Tear because of his presence? His being ta'veren did not always have any effect at all, but when it did the result could blanket an entire city."

This was in response to a group of startled pigeons flying into each other and falling out of the air, stunned.

So it appears that :

1. this particular effect of ta'vereness effect comes and goes

2. the size of the effect varies, anywhere up to a whole city

Callandor: 2005-11-14

**For example, if Rand lives past the LB, which he might not, but if he does, since is purpose is done would he still be ta'veren.**

From what we know -- no, he would not be. Presumably his task is more than enough complete. But they would all stop being ta'veren once the Pattern is back into balance. That's definately when they would stop being ta'veren, whenever that is.

**I know mat and perrin might have some more purpose to serve, but Rand doesn't seem to have much else to do. His purpose ends with the LB it seems.**

Sure does.

**Why can't the same be said for Mat? Ta'veren doesn't mean things go your way.**

Of course it doesn't -- that's why Mat will have buildings fall on him, he will lose races and bets and gambles, will take wounds and losses,

and will have to kill. How is that always going his way?

**Threads spinning around you isn't creating luck that turns your way all of the time.**

Mat's doesn't.

There's a very key scene in Knife of Dreams where Mat is dicing. He bets to win. He has been winning, his luck is going good. He loses. Why is that a good thing? It's not -- but it's ta'veren forces obviously, since it Mat had won he more than likely would've been killed as a supposed "cheater." Even Mat said that it was probably the luckiest toss he ever made -- but he didn't win.

**Why can't Mat have a talent of luck or chance that works for him even in the times the Pattern attempts to force him down a path, almost countering the Pattern's bend of Mat's thread?**

So, Mat has a talent that can counteract the effects of the Pattern and his ta'vereness? Or am I not reading you right?

My view is simple. Mat is ta'veren. The choices he makes are seen as "lucky." These choices are almost all demanded by the Pattern (I'm sure a few were not, but a large portion are). His luck at dice, cards, and generally random things are evident of this.

**this particular effect of ta'vereness effect comes and goes**

The effects like the piegons come and go -- but Rand is always ta'veren, the same that Mat is always ta'veren, the same that Perrin is always ta'veren. They will all always be ta'veren until they die, or the Wheel is corrected to balance (or both).

Bayle: 2005-11-14

Thanks for some great replies on my comment above... let me elaborate my point just a small bit.

I guess the main difference I see with Mat, is twofold. One, he is able, unlike Perrin and Rand or any other Ta'veren we've heard about from the past, he is able to sense the tides of luck changing, sense the chaos in the pattern. In KoD He even states that he can sense not just ONE set of dice, but multiple sets...and one when one fulfills itself, the noise lessens... secondly, he seems to have much more good than bad come i.e. Rand's presence (due to his strength as ta'veren) causes bad things to happen as often as good, as Min surmises in her knowledge of Herid Fel's writings in CoS Chapter 35, Into the Woods:

"There is always a balance of good against bad. Even he doesn't change that. As night balances day, good balances harm. ... The turning of the wheel requires balance, and he only increases the chances of what might have happened anyway in nature."

It seems Mat may be able to perhaps make things go one way or the other, or maybe go against this "natural balance" of which Fel philosophises.

The Finn's don't call Mat "the gambler" for nothing... if it were just his ta'veren-ness that caused his amazing luck, then every ta'veren would be good at dicing or at least have the propensity. And perhaps I am stuck on this point, but as you often say Callandor, RJ, though he throws red herrings, he also tends to forshadow just as often. Mat is told he has "the dark one's own luck" more often than anyone else in the series. Could it be that Mat has more control over his luck than Perrin and Rand? They don't seem to have ANY control, they just go with the weave of the pattern, but Mat has prior knowledge of important events and an ability to "sense" the luck shifting before it happens. That is something above and beyond him being Ta'veren, just as Perrin's Eyes and Rand's ability to channel are.

snakes-n-foxes: 2005-11-14

Callandor, you missed my point about the effects coming and going. Mat's dice luck may or may not be Ta'veren (of course I rather liked the Lanfear angle, but seeing that's wrong...) however that quote from Knife of Dreams shows that some aspects of Ta'vereness come and go (even though the person stays Ta'veren)

Mat's dicing luck never seems to come and go. Since Tar Valon, Mat has not won every toss, so giving an example of one toss as proof that his luck comes and goes doesn't really work...what we do know is that over a long period of time, since Tar Valon, Mat has never lost more money than he started with - even that Tavern in KoD he shouted the bar drinks, and was not out of pocket, so in terms of winnings, he left while he was ahead (of maybe even, but definitely not at a loss).

So we have an example that we KNOW is ta'veren - and that aspect is not constant, versus, an 'aspect' that is suspected of being ta'veren - but that aspect is virtually constant.

Of course, I'm separating the dicing luck here from his regular luck, but if the dice are going to be argued as Ta'veren, it seems likely to me that they would be a single aspect of ta'veren 'luck'...luck isn't even the correct term for what Ta'veren is, seeing as it can be both good and bad, for you and against you.

lurk: 2005-11-14

Something Moiraine said in TGH (IIRC)triggerd me. She sees the influence rand has on the pattern. as a taveren he is promoting chance (the kid falling from a three stories building with not even a cratch. Someone choking to death on a drink and stuff).

what if you are luckier than the average person and you're a taveren and if chance is promoted? You would probably benefit more than other people that aren't as lucky as you.

And taveren are woven into the pattern to bring it back to its original course. The more the pattern deviates from it's course the stronger the taverens influence becomes I would say (sadly I cannot prove this). Thus promoting chance and thus making Mat more lucky. His luck is growing in the books as is the disorder, Maybe that is the connection.

JakOShadows: 2005-11-14

Interesting idea lurk. So your saying that Mat's luck was supposed to be greater than Rand or Perrin. That that was how he was supposed to shape the world. And you are right, the chaos in the pattern could be helping Mat gain in strength, and so he was tended to counteract the chaos created by the DO, by being a really lucky in random events. So do you think he willing puts himself into these situations where he requires luck, or is it that it was done by the pattern. Because he has definitely had many many times to rely on it. For example, he opted to stay and watch the Altarans attack the seanchan. He could have just run. Or he could have opted to not take Tuon with him, but instead he takes her with him. And in that instance, if he had not asked the finns, would he have still taken her? Or finding the bowl of the winds? He chose to follow her, and therefore made use of his luck? So I think its two fold, he relies on his luck, and the pattern also puts him in situations which require luck. Like he never wears armor in battle. At least Perrin wears guantlets, but he just wears his foxhead medallion. I think Mat has learned by now to use it to his advantage in someways, because he never seems to be in a situation that doesn't require it.

Bayle: 2005-11-15

Something else I noticed today and had sorta forgotten about, while reading near the end of CoS, in "Promises to Keep" Ch. 39 Mat has the dice rumbling, we know from reading on that they stop with the "breaking of the storm" the seanchan arriving in Ebou Dar, while he is out searching for Olver... The dice are rumbling both before and after the ladies (Nyna and Elay) use his "ta'verenness" to bargain with Renaille and the windfinders. The bargain goes his way, his ta'veren influence causes them to fall in line, but the dice don't bother stopping for that.

My conclusion to this is that the Dice are linked not to "normal ta'veren bending of the pattern" but to something much bigger and more important. They certainly seem like some sort of latent Talent to me... Still pondering on their meaning. but I think they have to do with Mat's Luck being bigger and somehow very much linked to the Battle between the Creator and the Dark One. "The Dark One's Own Luck"... sometimes phrases come into being because of the grains of truth at their core... Could it be that without Mat's supernatural luck, the Dark One might triumph? The pattern needed not just a normal Ta'veren, but one with an exceptional lucky Talent... Mat's Luck as a balance to the Dark One's... It is still chaos, but perhaps it is that extra turn of luck that will pull the chaos into order for the Light...

snakes-n-foxes: 2005-11-15

Now that is an interesting idea Bayle. I'd been wondering about Mat's overall luck, because it seems to me that even when he is 'unlucky' the overall outcome is still lucky - for example the wall falling on him when the Seanchan arrive - that couldn't be anything but unlucky...until you look at the overall outcome (for Mat, not for others) - He's now Married to the Seanchan Empress.

The same goes for his battle luck when he first forms the Band of the Red Hand. He wanted nothing more than to avoid Battles trying to sneak around them with the Band, yet he kept finding himself in the hottest part of the Battle. Mat considered that unlucky, even if he did find himself in winning positions - He didn't want to be there! Now it has likely saved him from being killed while going through the Maldive Narrows with Tuon.

Mat almost gets blasted to bits by the firework he puts in The Stone (seems he would have had he been closer)...but from there Cannons will be born (with Aludra's help), and likely keep him alive during the last battle.

Lots of examples like that, but Mat's 'luck' does seem rather different from Rands...from what I recall, any 'event' that has been unlucky for Mat, inverts, working itself out in his favour in the long run.

Or in other words, without Mat's bad luck, he would never have found himself in the even luckier position he is at the end of it.

Can't say the same for Rand or Perrin.

lurk: 2005-11-15

To JOS:

I believe Mat has learnd to trust his luck. He doesn't really need others to remind him of his luck he knows he is lucky. He doesn't willibgly place himself in danger except when he has a promise to keep. And when he is faced with a dire situaion he just goes for it. Time to toss the dice.

Actually he has in some ocasions used his luck. For example when he is searching for Comar, Or in ebou dar when he is helping Nynaeve and Elayne find the stor room of ter'angreal. He start on random walks trusting his exceptional luck will lead him wheree he has to go.

To Bayle:

You are right about the dice being linked to pivotal events but calling it a talent I don't know. If being lucky is a talent than you're right. But is being lucky special enough to call a talent I doubt it. But as you have noticed I'm not really sure.

Callandor: 2005-11-15

**secondly, he seems to have much more good than bad come i.e. Rand's presence (due to his strength as ta'veren) causes bad things to happen as often as good, as Min surmises in her knowledge of Herid Fel's writings in CoS Chapter 35, Into the Woods

It seems Mat may be able to perhaps make things go one way or the other, or maybe go against this "natural balance" of which Fel philosophises.**

How is that? With the good Mat has you can point to the bad as well.

**The Finn's don't call Mat "the gambler" for nothing... if it were just his ta'veren-ness that caused his amazing luck, then every ta'veren would be good at dicing or at least have the propensity.**

And we've seen in around Rand:

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 30 - A Wager

Sulin approached him, the shoufa around her shoulders so it uncovered her short white hair, and leaned on the railing. The wiry Maiden was armed for battle, bow and arrows, spears and knife and buckler. She had taken command of his bodyguard tonight. Two dozen more Far Dareis Mai squatted easily on the bridge ten paces away. "An odd night," she said. "We were gambling, but suddenly everyone was throwing nothing but sixes."**

**Could it be that Mat has more control over his luck than Perrin and Rand? They don't seem to have ANY control, they just go with the weave of the pattern, but Mat has prior knowledge of important events and an ability to "sense" the luck shifting before it happens.**

Hardly. Where is Mat's control with his ta'vereness in Tear? Where is his control when he cannot leave Rand's side from The Shadow Rising until Lord of Chaos? Where is his control at entering the Wondering Woman? Where is his control at moving into the Tarasin Palace? Where is his control at having a brick wall fall on him?

Mat has as little control over his ta'veren forces as anyone. I'd say he even has less, since he was the last to accept that he is a ta'veren -- Rand and Perrin resisted but eventually accepted much earlier than Mat did.

Further:

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 5 - A Different Dance

Mat smiled and propped his elbows on the table. "Find yourself a good horse, and we'll see." His luck might not affect a horse race--aside from dice and cards and the like, he could never be sure what it would touch or when--but he had grown up watching his father trade horseflesh, and his own eye for a horse was fairly sharp.**

And this is as good an indication it's ta'veren than anything I would say:

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 5 - A Different Dance

It was a small, unwalled town, though fifty times larger than anything he had seen before leaving the Two Rivers. An overgrown village, really, few of the brick and stone buildings more than a single story high and only the inns rising as much as three, with as many roofs of wooden shingles or thatch as slate or tile. Now the streets, most hard-packed dirt, were thronged with people. The townsfolk were of every sort, mainly Cairhienin and Andorans. Although it lay on the Cairhienin side of the Erinin, Maerone was in no nation now, but balanced between, with folk from half a dozen lands living there or passing through. There had even been three or four Aes Sedai since Mat arrived. Even wearing the medallion he walked wide of them--no need to seek out trouble--but they all moved on as quickly as they came. His luck did run good when it was important. So far it had.**

What else is more important than what the Pattern wants done?

**Callandor, you missed my point about the effects coming and going. Mat's dice luck may or may not be Ta'veren (of course I rather liked the Lanfear angle, but seeing that's wrong...) however that quote from Knife of Dreams shows that some aspects of Ta'vereness come and go (even though the person stays Ta'veren)**

And you're missing my entire point. My point was that Mat will stay ta'veren, as you just said. Hence, this statement is false, or at least extremely misleading:

**Mat, on the other hand, has something much more that works with the pattern when it needs to, and works even when he's not "being ta'veren".**

Mat's always ta'veren. It doesn't shut off and come back. The big events that the Pattern wants him to do come and go, yes, but he always remains ta'veren. I've never said different.

**Mat's dicing luck never seems to come and go.**

Oh, that is wrong.

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 5 - A Different Dance

"Not so," Mat protested. True, when his luck was in, it was perfect, but it ran in cycles, especially with things that had as much order as a deck of cards. "Blood and ashes! You won fifty crowns from me last week." Fifty crowns; a year or so ago, he would have turned backflips at winning one crown, and wept at the thought of losing one. A year or so ago, he had not had one to lose.**

**what we do know is that over a long period of time, since Tar Valon, Mat has never lost more money than he started with**

Yes, that is true -- but his luck does come in cycles, as he attests.

**Of course, I'm separating the dicing luck here from his regular luck, but if the dice are going to be argued as Ta'veren, it seems likely to me that they would be a single aspect of ta'veren 'luck'...luck isn't even the correct term for what Ta'veren is, seeing as it can be both good and bad, for you and against you.**

What people do not realize, is that luck is the same way. I cannot think of a single word better to describe ta'veren forces other than "luck."

**The more the pattern deviates from it's course the stronger the taverens influence becomes I would say (sadly I cannot prove this).**

The BWB says that the more change needed, the more ta'veren spun out. But I would also argue that if it's a lot of change needed, a couple very strong ta'veren would be spun out perfectly acceptable.

**So do you think he willing puts himself into these situations where he requires luck, or is it that it was done by the pattern.**

First off, I would say that Mat's luck is ta'vereness when he needs to get out of a situation or needs to acquire things for down the road (like meeting Olver, picking up the Razor for Tuon, getting out of Tar Valon, and getting out of the Hell).

Second, I would say there is some variation. Sure, some situations it seems Mat gets into all by himself, and the Pattern can't have him die or fail at this point in time so it gives him a helping hand per se (I'd say the incident in the Hell is perfect of this, but this is a grey area); however, others would almost certainly be Pattern influenced (I would saying being Healed of the dagger and then needing to get out of Tar Valon as an example of this).

Bayle: 2005-11-16

I too am fully unsure as to exactly WHAT the "Head Dice" signify... perhaps "Talent" is too strong a term, but certainly it is something different from everyone else, an awareness that no one else seems to posess.

I guess the only reason I have been thinking about it as a "talent" is because of Hurin's ability to smell evil, it feels like Mat has an ability to sense a ... um... disturbance in the force... hehe.

My other question in regard to Mat's Dice is this... though he can sense the dice rolling, and knows they fortell something big coming up, what good is it if he doesn't know what they refer to, or is not able to change the outcome, one way or another? This is my biggest stumbling block. He never knows what the dice mean until after the event occurs, and sometimes not even then.

This begs the question, "Why RJ, Why bother us with the Dice business? Why not just make Mat's luck simple Ta'Veren, why give mat any notice whatsoever?"

Ok that question asked, here is my new guess:

Perhaps Mat, being the Finn-titled "Gambler" is given this special dice rolling to know when he has to wager everything. Maybe his "talent" (I call it this for lack of a better term...) is to know when to lay everything on the line, because the stakes are high, perhaps risking even the world. Maybe the Dice give him a free pass to be risky, to not worry, to just ride chance. The other ta'veren can't always count on it, but Matt, with his Head Dice, knows then chance is suspended enough for him to gain big...

I hope any of that made sense... I'm just sorta "rapping" about this atm, not quotes to prove anything, just a general sense of things.

Bayle: 2005-11-17

Ok Callendor, tell me this if you don't mind (by the way I love your posts, and your convictions, it is always a great read) If you think his luck is just Ta'veren induced (you make a good arguement), what are the dice then, and what do they signify?

If they are just "in his head" and arbitrary, then why does RJ even put them in?

If they ARE signifigant, (I attest that they are, because the give him foreknowledge of importent branches in teh pattern) then why Mat, and how can he use this to his advantage?

If he can't use it to his advantage, and the foreknowledge of events is rendered meaningless because of lack of choice or influence over these large events, then I ask again, why does RJ put it in the story?

Thanks!

snakes-n-foxes: 2005-11-17

***Callandor, you missed my point about the effects coming and going. Mat's dice luck may or may not be Ta'veren (of course I rather liked the Lanfear angle, but seeing that's wrong...) however that quote from Knife of Dreams shows that some aspects of Ta'vereness come and go (even though the person stays Ta'veren)**

And you're missing my entire point. My point was that Mat will stay ta'veren, as you just said. Hence, this statement is false, or at least extremely misleading:***

How is it misleading? The quote shows Rand thinking in black and white that sometimes the effects of ta'veren (in relation to the random events around him) are non existant and sometimes they are very existant. Sometimes they're big and sometimes their small.

**Mat's dicing luck never seems to come and go.*

Oh, that is wrong.**

No, you've removed it from the context of the rest of the paragraph to make it wrong. Mat's luck regarding dice moves in cycles yes (sometimes very lucky, and sometimes only lucky), but since Tar Valon it never goes into the negative. His luck with the dice since then has never been bad (ie he has never lost more than he won).

In other words, his luck with the dice has never been bad, and always been good.

Ta'veren effects seem to always be random, ie both good and bad.

Now, I would be happy to think of his luck with the dice as Ta'veren, if only I could see a way past this.

Callandor: 2005-11-18

**Lots of examples like that, but Mat's 'luck' does seem rather different from Rands...from what I recall, any 'event' that has been unlucky for Mat, inverts, working itself out in his favour in the long run.

Or in other words, without Mat's bad luck, he would never have found himself in the even luckier position he is at the end of it.

Can't say the same for Rand or Perrin.**

And how is this different from Rand or Perrin? Rand getting his second wound from Fain was surely unlucky -- yet it was a key point to how he understood how to cleanse saidin. Quite lucky, eh?

**Actually he has in some ocasions used his luck. For example when he is searching for Comar, Or in ebou dar when he is helping Nynaeve and Elayne find the stor room of ter'angreal. He start on random walks trusting his exceptional luck will lead him wheree he has to go.**

Rand has done this too -- see his reasons for going to the Sea Folk and the Tairen/Cairhien rebels.

**Perhaps Mat, being the Finn-titled "Gambler" is given this special dice rolling to know when he has to wager everything.**

But we know the dice have stopped when Mat has done virtually nothing, such as walking into the room with Tuon, and simply going to the Wandering Woman.

Callandor: 2005-11-19

**Ok Callendor, tell me this if you don't mind (by the way I love your posts, and your convictions, it is always a great read) If you think his luck is just Ta'veren induced (you make a good arguement), what are the dice then, and what do they signify?**

What they are is unknown. I think they're just something that the Pattern gave to him. A talent is probably the best description for it, but I wouldn't really classify it that way.

What they signify are the important things in his life I would say. The major one being his marriage to Tuon. A whole slew of dice events from the books all lead to his marriage with Tuon and can be seen that way (like staying at the Wandering Woman, then the Palace, then the dice stopping when he sees Tuon, then when he makes a deal with her, etc.). Again, there's probably many other such events, like with the Battle of Cairhien where the Band is created, that are all important to Mat's fate.

**If they ARE signifigant, (I attest that they are, because the give him foreknowledge of importent branches in teh pattern) then why Mat, and how can he use this to his advantage?**

Who says he uses it to his advantage? Best answer would just be foreknowledge.

**If he can't use it to his advantage, and the foreknowledge of events is rendered meaningless because of lack of choice or influence over these large events, then I ask again, why does RJ put it in the story?**

Because it's part of his themes. Why put the prophecies in if we know they will come true? Because:

1. Drama effect -- the dice are definately for this since we all wonder what will make them stop this time around.

2. His theme of fate.

It's not meaningless. It hardly is. Mat knows something important will happen, and he can't change that it will happen, but knowing that something will happen is quite meaningful.

**Mat, on the other hand, has something much more that works with the pattern when it needs to, and works even when he's not "being ta'veren".**

Then read my explanation of why it's wrong or misleading:

**Mat's always ta'veren. It doesn't shut off and come back. The big events that the Pattern wants him to do come and go, yes, but he always remains ta'veren. I've never said different.**

**No, you've removed it from the context of the rest of the paragraph to make it wrong. Mat's luck regarding dice moves in cycles yes (sometimes very lucky, and sometimes only lucky), but since Tar Valon it never goes into the negative. His luck with the dice since then has never been bad (ie he has never lost more than he won).**

And you talk of taking things out of context when you did just that with my statements.

No, I didn't take it out of context at all.

You said his dicing luck never comes and goes -- his quote that says his luck runs in cycles says opposite. Rest of your statements are fine, but you're first sentence is false -- hence why I selected it.

**In other words, his luck with the dice has never been bad, and always been good.

Ta'veren effects seem to always be random, ie both good and bad.

Now, I would be happy to think of his luck with the dice as Ta'veren, if only I could see a way past this.**

I don't see how you have missed it so far; I quoted just the part that proves it to you:

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 5 - A Different Dance

It was a small, unwalled town, though fifty times larger than anything he had seen before leaving the Two Rivers. An overgrown village, really, few of the brick and stone buildings more than a single story high and only the inns rising as much as three, with as many roofs of wooden shingles or thatch as slate or tile. Now the streets, most hard-packed dirt, were thronged with people. The townsfolk were of every sort, mainly Cairhienin and Andorans. Although it lay on the Cairhienin side of the Erinin, Maerone was in no nation now, but balanced between, with folk from half a dozen lands living there or passing through. There had even been three or four Aes Sedai since Mat arrived. Even wearing the medallion he walked wide of them--no need to seek out trouble--but they all moved on as quickly as they came. His luck did run good when it was important. So far it had.**

What's more important than events the Pattern wants to happen? In other words, what's more important than events fated to happen?

I gave the explanation of what happened in Tar Valon as an example of this. The Pattern needed Mat out of Tar Valon. It also needed him alive. Mat needed lots of food to stay alive, and payment for a voyage to Caemlyn. Mat needed money. The Pattern gave it with his exceptional luck that night.

Fog and Steel: 2005-12-06

mat's luck comes from him being ta'veren. i remember reading somewhere that its like being in the eye of the storm. in shienar, his strength in being ta'veren is increasing, on his way to tar valon to be healed, it is mentioned that he won every game of dice against hurin. ( the sniffer ) my belief is that his strength in being ta'veren keeps on increasing, until the last battle, after which it will die down. also i believe that his ability to be ta'veren isn't something which can be switched on and off - its always there - folding luck around him, just that he might not always be aware of it.

Eek: 2006-01-14

actually I believe that he says something about winning with the dice in the early chapters of The Great Hunt, in Fal Dara I believe.

So it shouldn't be the Finns, or Lanfear or any other who gave him his luck. Mayby back at Shadar Logoth but I'll stick with that it's a talent or something with Ta'veren

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-01-15

Sometimes we seem to be arguing about two different things:

I say Mat's luck with the dice has never been bad.

You say Mat's dicing luck does run in good and bad cycles (unfortunately using an example of a loss whilst playing cards to support this argument).

Since Tar Valon, there is not an example in the book of him losing more money than he started with at dice. I just can’t agree that never losing more money than you started with - whilst dicing, can ever be construed in any way as having bad luck whilst dicing.

Certainly I’ll always separate Mat’s dicing luck from the rest of his luck, because it seems to run differently (ie there is no bad luck with his dicing as per above) to the rest of his luck.

I’ve always liked how you support your arguments, but below is an example over why we can’t seem to agree. I’ve tried to keep the quotes in context.

So perhaps we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

{original SnF quote}Mat's dicing luck never seems to come and go. Since Tar Valon, Mat has not won every toss, so giving an example of one toss as proof that his luck comes and goes doesn't really work...what we do know is that over a long period of time, since Tar Valon, Mat has never lost more money than he started with - even that Tavern in KoD he shouted the bar drinks, and was not out of pocket, so in terms of winnings, he left while he was ahead (or maybe even, but definitely not at a loss).

So we have an example that we KNOW (insert: this is in regards to Rands thoughts of Ta’veren effects) is ta'veren - and that aspect is not constant, versus, an 'aspect' that is suspected of being ta'veren - but that aspect is virtually constant.(end original SnF quote)

(Callandor response)**Mat's dicing luck never seems to come and go.**

Oh, that is wrong.

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 5 - A Different Dance

"Not so," Mat protested. True, when his luck was in, it was perfect, but it ran in cycles, especially with things that had as much order as a deck of cards. "Blood and ashes! You won fifty crowns from me last week." Fifty crowns; a year or so ago, he would have turned backflips at winning one crown, and wept at the thought of losing one. A year or so ago, he had not had one to lose.**(end Callandor response)

(SnF reply) No, you've removed it from the context of the rest of the paragraph to make it wrong. Mat's luck regarding dice moves in cycles yes (sometimes very lucky, and sometimes only lucky), but since Tar Valon it never goes into the negative. His luck with the dice since then has never been bad (ie he has never lost more than he won).

In other words, his luck with the dice has never been bad, and always been good.

Ta'veren effects seem to always be random, ie both good and bad.(end SnF Reply)

[Callandor reply]And you talk of taking things out of context when you did just that with my statements.

No, I didn't take it out of context at all.

You said his dicing luck never comes and goes -- his quote that says his luck runs in cycles says opposite. [end Callandor reply]

Callandor: 2006-01-15

**I say Mat's luck with the dice has never been bad.

You say Mat's dicing luck does run in good and bad cycles (unfortunately using an example of a loss whilst playing cards to support this argument).**

No, I'm not using Mat's loss in a card game as proof of his "bad luck". My point was that his luck isn't only about dice and cards -- he will lose, or win, at them to continue his ta'veren fate.

My proof for Mat's luck running in cycles is Mat's own comments about his own luck.

**Since Tar Valon, there is not an example in the book of him losing more money than he started with at dice. I just can’t agree that never losing more money than you started with - whilst dicing, can ever be construed in any way as having bad luck whilst dicing.**

Because you're limited to seeing bad luck only as quantifiable with the dicing.

**Certainly I’ll always separate Mat’s dicing luck from the rest of his luck, because it seems to run differently (ie there is no bad luck with his dicing as per above) to the rest of his luck.**

And there in lies the problem.

**I’ve always liked how you support your arguments, but below is an example over why we can’t seem to agree. I’ve tried to keep the quotes in context.**

I don't see any problem -- you made one incorrect sentence that I singled out to correct, and you seem to have a major problem with this. It's not my fault that you can't see Mat's luck as running "in cycles" as having his good times be "perfect" (Mat's word choice) and his down times to be "only lucky" (your word choice).

You still make statements like, "Ta'veren effects seem to always be random, ie both good and bad." but then can't see that this is the perfect description of a cycle one that's easily seen as effecting Mat.

It's not a situation to agree to disagree -- it's quite clearly stated, so I don't know what the fuss is about.

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-01-16

Hmmm...by your reply you are quite clearly ignoring that Mat's luck with the dice runs quite quite contrary to all his other luck.

As you point out with the example with the cards (and there are enough other examples) his luck is occasionally bad...but it is NEVER bad with the dice... and instead of asking why this is so, you choose not to examine the issue, but rather to lump it with the rest of his 'luck'. To me Always Good does not equal Most-often-good / sometimes bad.

Personally I'd rather believe it a talent, the dagger, the dark ones own luck...ta'veren just has never made any sense to me.

tworiverswoman: 2006-01-17

Back in September, Anubis posted the following RJ interview quote: “Question: In the Dragon Reborn, Lanfear visits Mat as he is recuperating from his one power surgery over the dagger. At one point she stretches out her hand towards him ... So it was about this time that Mat's really really really weird luck and the dice rolling in his head began, is this a connection or coincidence?

Jordan: That is a coincidence. When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true. It wasn't a gift from Lanfear, though.”

This seems to have gone completely ignored. Which is really weird, considering your fondness for quotes, Callandor. Are you trying to say that Mat’s “Ta’vereness” is from the Dark One?? You seem to be saying that Mat’s luck is entirely wrapped up in his being Ta’veren. Everybody who’s arguing with you seem to be trying to say that his “gaming luck” (especially with dice) is a separate issue, and NOT due to his being Ta’veren.

Being Ta’veren alters chance around you, but in entirely random ways, as far as I can see. Six down, half-a-dozen up, as Mat would say. But, while Mat isn’t always FABULOUSLY lucky at gaming, it’s FAR more often positive than negative. And when it is negative, it’s still good, as in the hell when he walked away only one coin better off (having bought the house a round with some of his coin), but convinced that to have “won” more would have been a very bad thing. Personally, I read that bit as having his “Ta’veren luck” step in and supercede his “gaming luck” to protect him.

Callandor: 2006-01-17

**Hmmm...by your reply you are quite clearly ignoring that Mat's luck with the dice runs quite quite contrary to all his other luck.**

No, it does not. That's my entire point.

**As you point out with the example with the cards (and there are enough other examples) his luck is occasionally bad...but it is NEVER bad with the dice... and instead of asking why this is so, you choose not to examine the issue, but rather to lump it with the rest of his 'luck'. To me Always Good does not equal Most-often-good / sometimes bad.**

Once again, you completely fail to realize that Mat losing at the card game is not "bad luck." As even Mat said, it was probably the luckiest toss he ever made.

**Personally I'd rather believe it a talent, the dagger, the dark ones own luck...ta'veren just has never made any sense to me.**

I honestly don't see why.

**You seem to be saying that Mat’s luck is entirely wrapped up in his being Ta’veren.**

Yes.

**Being Ta’veren alters chance around you, but in entirely random ways, as far as I can see.**

Not at all -- it's for specific purpose: balance. That, and keeping the ta'veren alive to do their fate; must not forget that part.

**But, while Mat isn’t always FABULOUSLY lucky at gaming, it’s FAR more often positive than negative.**

Again, I haven't disagreed with that -- I only point out that Mat does lose, and Mat's luck does go in cycles.

**And when it is negative, it’s still good, as in the hell when he walked away only one coin better off (having bought the house a round with some of his coin), but convinced that to have “won” more would have been a very bad thing. Personally, I read that bit as having his “Ta’veren luck” step in and supercede his “gaming luck” to protect him.**

Mat's ta'veren. Ta'veren are lucky. Mat made a miraculous toss that was far better off for him than for winning the dice toss -- he got to live. That's ta'veren. Where do people get off saying that they can distinguish all those other situations as some other nether-form of luck?

Not anyone thinks that Rand has this magical, mystical luck -- yet he's quite commonly refered to as lucky or one of the luckiest men in the world, and has the same situations as occurs with Mat. Yet with Rand, it's ta'veren. With Mat it's "something else."

New Forsaken: 2006-01-18

Just to add Perrin is also lucky even though people dont just come right out and say it like the other two. But small hints of it come out like after the battle in Malden. The Senchan general is amazed at how well the battle plan came off with very little loses. They were going up against a large army of Shaido and came away with very very few causualties. That is part good planning and also very lucky.

Robo-Hillbilly: 2006-01-18

I have always thought Verin must have used the Dice ter’angrel during Mat’s healing.

We know Mat was lucky before he took the dagger. We know he is Ta’veren. We know both Rand and Perrin have had instances where the pattern has bent itself around them in their travels. Jordan often refers to the strange occurrences happening around them such as people falling from heights and not being hurt, servants tripping and dropping porcelain items and they not shattering into millions of pieces, to fishmongers mongers dropping their baskets and all the fish falling nose down in a circle and other such things. However, when this happens Jordan follows those descriptions with negative effects happening as well such as people tripping on chairs and breaking necks and various other events. This is not the effect Mat has with Dice. The Dice always fall his way EVEN IF HE LOSES the toss. He loses only when it is lucky to lose such as when faced with getting his throat slit or his noggin bashed by someone thinking he is cheating.

Here are the supporting facts for my claim. The dice start spinning in his head after Verin and the others heal him in Tar Valon not before.

One of the Aes Sedai mentions he will need the Dark One’s own luch to survive the separation, I recall it was Verin that said the but I could be wrong there.

The BA steal a number of ter’angrel in their departure from the tower, and all of them seem to deal with TAR and dreams (even the hedgehog trap has that effect) except the dice ter’angrel this does not make sense. We have not seen the BA have any luck in their favor they bungle everything so their luck is not effected like Mat’s. If they had such a device I bet it would have been used by now.

Nynevae mentions this ter’angrel specifically and gives SOME of its abilities from the notes of the AS that studied it, and even mentions Mat specifically in this context. (Jordan hinting I believe) At this time we are told when it is channeled through it alters chance. It does not do this randomly it does so with incredible consistency coins landing on edges, the same face thousands of times etc. Just like Mat’s ability with games of chance. We do not know if the AS testing it had a side effect of dice spinning in her noggin cause she is gone so no way to know for sure but it is possible.

Verin is found to have one of the missing dream ter’angrel in her possession. Why could she not have taken the dice ter’angrel at the same time and use it on Mat?

She uses a weave similar to compulsion on the sisters in the Wise Ones camp that has a LASTING ability. Why not use a similar weave while using the ter’angrel to add its luck properties while healing Mat?

I have seen nothing to dispute these claims and plenty of hints to support them. What do you think?

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-01-18

{SnF quote} Hmmm...by your reply you are quite clearly ignoring that Mat's luck with the dice runs quite quite contrary to all his other luck.{end SnF Quote}

(Callandor reply)No, it does not. That's my entire point. (end Callandor reply)

What I said was entirely correct. There is not a single example in the book of Mat having bad luck with the dice. Please provide one to back up your statement. As you acknowledge though, there are examples of Mat having bad luck for other things.

{SnF quote}As you point out with the example with the cards (and there are enough other examples) his luck is occasionally bad...but it is NEVER bad with the dice... and instead of asking why this is so, you choose not to examine the issue, but rather to lump it with the rest of his 'luck'. To me Always Good does not equal Most-often-good / sometimes bad.{End SnF quote}

(Callandor quote)Once again, you completely fail to realize that Mat losing at the card game is not "bad luck." As even Mat said, it was probably the luckiest toss he ever made.(end Callandor quote)

Unfortunately your reply is wrong. Mat thinking it was probably the luckiest TOSS he had ever made was in relation to the pub in KoD where he was playing DICE, not cards.

(Callandor quote)Again, I haven't disagreed with that -- I only point out that Mat does lose, and Mat's luck does go in cycles(end Callandor quote)

Mat does lose…just not at dice.

And yes, we’ve all acknowledged that his luck goes in cycles…although with the dice it’s different - that cycle only ranges within the positive from just lucky to extremely lucky.

tworiverswoman: 2006-01-19

**Where do people get off saying that they can distinguish all those other situations as some other nether-form of luck?**

Mainly because of what Robert Jordan said in the interview. “When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true.” This does not sound like he’s describing Mat’s luck as due to his “ta’veren-ness”. Nobody is trying to say Mat isn’t ta’veren. But apparently a lot of us find reason to believe his “gaming luck” is separate from the effects of being ta’veren. If Rand and Perrin gambled, we’d have more reason to either agree with you or throw our hands up and shout, “Hah!” at you. Since neither of them ever have reason to display the same ability to consistently win more than they lose (in gambling), we are arguing based on gut feeling. So are you.

His extraordinary luck with the dice, over and above the luck he always felt he had, began after he was healed of the SL dagger, according to his own POV. But he’s been ta’veren since just before Moiraine showed up, according to a variety of statements made by RJ. The cross-country trip he made with Rand is hard to gather many clues from, as he “was not himself” (heh). Rand’s t’v effects are bizarre, in a word; some are wonderful, and some are ghastly. People behave in odd fashions around him. Around all three of them, of course, but it’s most noticable around Rand. Was getting the dagger the result of his being ta’veren? I’d have to say yes. Even though it seemed a disaster at the time, it’s what started the whole causality chain that led to Rhuidean.

Probably a lot of times when Mat wins at the games, t’v is a factor. When there is some reason for the Pattern to take a hand. (pun NOT intended). But while he is ALWAYS ta’veren, I flatly don’t believe it is always “active”. We’ve been told the Pattern uses t’v as a “self-correcting” mechanism. If it was in permanent “on” mode, the trio wouldn’t be able to bloody MOVE for all the weird calamities/miracles in the near neighborhood. And I don’t think the Pattern would be served in any useful fashion, either.

Mat’s lucky. His Band “knows” when and where he needs them. He gets the things he needs from the ‘Finns, even though he didn’t get what he was expecting or wanting. He gets the money he needs when he needs it. He “gets the girl”. He lives “in fortuitous circumstances.” I agree that this is largely the result of ta’veren. But I still believe that something additional is in the works.

Why does this IRRITATE you so much? You could be right. You could also be wrong. Stranger things have happened. And it’s almost impossible to talk somebody out of a “gut feeling”.

Khazhul: 2006-01-19

I think something we are also forgetting is that when Mat wins a lot, he usually needs that money for something. When it happened in Tar'Valon he needed money for his trip because he needed to eat enough for like 3 men. Now he wins because he needs to feed an army. The pattern is giving Mat what he needs and he needs money. That seems to be a benefit of being Ta'veren and not just lucky. Hasn't there been quite a few references in the books also that talk about great commanders in the past being gamblers? There were a few reference that linked gambling and battle. Another thing we have never seen is Mat gambling with Rand or Perrin. Until that really happens we will never really know just how that 'luck' runs but I really think the winner would depend on what the pattern needed and not some innate ability with luck.

Anubis: 2006-01-19

**I have seen nothing to dispute these claims and plenty of hints to support them. What do you think?**

I think we are beating a dead horse. Actually, we are beating a puddle of blood, gristle and bone chunks that used to be a dead horse. Please never post in this thread again. And btw, no.

JakOShadows: 2006-01-19

I don't think its likely that Verin did that, because she was not leading the circle. And if she did it afterwards, someone would have noticed. I think Mat winning at dice is part of being ta'veren. Because he does need that money to pay his army in the begginning and money to buy food and passage for the trip in tDR. So he has always won at dice when the pattern needed him to survive. It's just always connected with gaming, because that's what he does more. Whereas Rand and Perrin might be luck in other ways. I don't think its too big of a stretch to relate it to him being ta'veren.

Callandor: 2006-01-19

**However, when this happens Jordan follows those descriptions with negative effects happening as well such as people tripping on chairs and breaking necks and various other events. This is not the effect Mat has with Dice. The Dice always fall his way EVEN IF HE LOSES the toss. He loses only when it is lucky to lose such as when faced with getting his throat slit or his noggin bashed by someone thinking he is cheating.**

False. Mat does not win every toss -- look again at his conversations with Talmanes. He wins a lot, but he doesn't win every single one of them, and not just in situations where it's necessary for him to lose.

**Here are the supporting facts for my claim. The dice start spinning in his head after Verin and the others heal him in Tar Valon not before.**

How great -- except that the dice ter'angreal is out of Tar Valon having been stolen by the Black Ajah, and it's the dice ter'angreal itself that alters luck when it's channeled into. What you're suggesting is similar to Verin casting a bond on Mat by using a ter'angreal in a way that not a single one has ever been referenced or even hinted at being used.

**One of the Aes Sedai mentions he will need the Dark One’s own luch to survive the separation, I recall it was Verin that said the but I could be wrong there.**

You're going to have to quote that, because I can't find it. The only thing that Verin really says is that it's fascinating that the Old Blood ran so strongly.

**The BA steal a number of ter’angrel in their departure from the tower, and all of them seem to deal with TAR and dreams (even the hedgehog trap has that effect) except the dice ter’angrel this does not make sense. We have not seen the BA have any luck in their favor they bungle everything so their luck is not effected like Mat’s. If they had such a device I bet it would have been used by now.**

They also stole a number of unknown objects, not to mention the balefire rod. Not everything was related to tel'aran'rhiod.

**Nynevae mentions this ter’angrel specifically and gives SOME of its abilities from the notes of the AS that studied it, and even mentions Mat specifically in this context. (Jordan hinting I believe)**

He's showing more of Mat's personality -- again, with the nature of ter'angreal, using the dice to effect Mat permanently in such a fashion is simply not possible.

**At this time we are told when it is channeled through it alters chance. It does not do this randomly it does so with incredible consistency coins landing on edges, the same face thousands of times etc. Just like Mat’s ability with games of chance.**

How great, but you mentioned the key point, and ignored it: it has to be channeled into to work. Mat, regardless of what many would like to think, is not a channeler and does not use it for his own purposes. You can't "apply" the powers of a ter'angreal permanently to a person like a Warder bond.

**Verin is found to have one of the missing dream ter’angrel in her possession. Why could she not have taken the dice ter’angrel at the same time and use it on Mat?**

No, she has a ter'angreal she took -- not one of the missing ones.

**She uses a weave similar to compulsion on the sisters in the Wise Ones camp that has a LASTING ability. Why not use a similar weave while using the ter’angrel to add its luck properties while healing Mat?**

Because the two are fundamentally different. One is an applied weave that the channeler made and created, which actually is not lasting (it's the suggestions that Verin makes to the Aes Sedai that is lasting, and their own choices in following them). The other is a set effect that only happens when a ter'angreal is channeled through, and stops when it's not.

**I have seen nothing to dispute these claims and plenty of hints to support them. What do you think?**

Every single point of them has been argued above -- just with Lanfear being the one, not Verin. They still fall flat.

Oatman: 2006-01-20

How is this thread still going?

There is no occurance of anything like you are suggesting ever happening or being able to happen. Its implausable. Imagine the connotations if you could give someone the abilities of a Ter'Angreal through a weave. You could make your regular person into a dreamer. You could create an army of soldiers who can spurt Balefire randomly. Or how about playing a prank on someone, you could make it so when the open thier mouth an image projects out of it and it plays music!.

Mats luck is the pattern providing him with what he needs, just like Perrins ability to make people follow his lead, and Rand drawing out the people he needs in any given situation.

Mats luck was NOT the result of channeling or anything to do with the dice ter'angreal.

Callandor: 2006-01-21

**What I said was entirely correct. There is not a single example in the book of Mat having bad luck with the dice. Please provide one to back up your statement. As you acknowledge though, there are examples of Mat having bad luck for other things.**

Since your terms for bad luck excludes losses, that's going to be impossible.

Mat lost at the game because of ta'veren forces, and it was even as he said one of the luckiest things to happen to him.

**Mat does lose…just not at dice.

And yes, we’ve all acknowledged that his luck goes in cycles…although with the dice it’s different - that cycle only ranges within the positive from just lucky to extremely lucky.**

No, my point is that you continually say he does not lose.

**TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 49 - A Storm in Tear

"Wouldn't you rather dice some more? Stones take too much time."

"I like a chance to win more than one toss in nine or ten," the white-haired man said dryly.**

Mat loses.

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 5 - A Different Dance

"Not so," Mat protested. True, when his luck was in, it was perfect, but it ran in cycles, especially with things that had as much order as a deck of cards. "Blood and ashes! You won fifty crowns from me last week." Fifty crowns; a year or so ago, he would have turned backflips at winning one crown, and wept at the thought of losing one. A year or so ago, he had not had one to lose.**

Mat loses.

**Mainly because of what Robert Jordan said in the interview. “When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true.” This does not sound like he’s describing Mat’s luck as due to his “ta’veren-ness”.**

However Mat got this, is ta'veren.

**If Rand and Perrin gambled, we’d have more reason to either agree with you or throw our hands up and shout, “Hah!” at you. Since neither of them ever have reason to display the same ability to consistently win more than they lose (in gambling), we are arguing based on gut feeling.**

I've continually quoted where the exact same situations that Mat had, occured around Rand.

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 30 - A Wager

Sulin approached him, the shoufa around her shoulders so it uncovered her short white hair, and leaned on the railing. The wiry Maiden was armed for battle, bow and arrows, spears and knife and buckler. She had taken command of his bodyguard tonight. Two dozen more Far Dareis Mai squatted easily on the bridge ten paces away. "An odd night," she said. "We were gambling, but suddenly everyone was throwing nothing but sixes."**

But for some reason everyone loves to simply ignore it.

**His extraordinary luck with the dice, over and above the luck he always felt he had, began after he was healed of the SL dagger, according to his own POV. But he’s been ta’veren since just before Moiraine showed up, according to a variety of statements made by RJ.**

Ta'veren aren't just instantly made -- we didn't see Rand having a string of marriages around him in The Eye of the World.

**Was getting the dagger the result of his being ta’veren?**

Without a doubt.

**Probably a lot of times when Mat wins at the games, t’v is a factor. When there is some reason for the Pattern to take a hand. (pun NOT intended). But while he is ALWAYS ta’veren, I flatly don’t believe it is always “active”. We’ve been told the Pattern uses t’v as a “self-correcting” mechanism. If it was in permanent “on” mode, the trio wouldn’t be able to bloody MOVE for all the weird calamities/miracles in the near neighborhood.**

Point to a quote that says ta'vereness stop for any point in time, or give a reason why the Pattern decided that at specific points, it needed whole towns to be ingulfed in weddings, or towns to catch fire, or for people to fall and break their necks, or for people to fall and live.

It IS constant.

**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 36 - Web of the Pattern

"Yes, that's it. But sometimes the change chooses you, or the Wheel chooses it for you. And sometimes the Wheel bends a life-thread, or several threads, in such a way that all the surrounding threads are forced to swirl around it, and those force other threads, and those still others, and on and on. That first bending to make the Web, that is ta'veren, and there is nothing you can do to change it, not until the Pattern itself changes. The Web - ta'maral'ailen, it's called - can last for weeks, or for years. It can take in a town, or even the whole Pattern. Artur Hawkwing was ta'veren. So was Lews Therin Kinslayer, for that matter, I suppose." He let out a booming chuckle. "Elder Haman would be proud of me. He always droned on, and the books about traveling were much more interesting, but I did listen sometimes."**

No start and stop -- constant.

**TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 3 - Friends and Enemies

"For a time, the Wheel will bend the Pattern around you three, whatever you do. And whatever you do is more likely to be chosen by the Wheel than by you. Ta'veren pull history along behind them and shape the Pattern just by being, but the Wheel weaves Ta'veren on a tighter line than other men. Wherever you go and whatever you do, until the Wheel chooses otherwise you will-"**

No start and stop -- constant.

**TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 5 - The Shadow in Shienar

"I have the means to see him named Dragon whether he wills it or not. And even if I somehow fail, the Pattern itself will see him named Dragon whether he wills it or not. Remember, he is ta'veren, Siuan. He has no more control over his fate than a candle wick has over the flame."**

No start and stop -- constant.

**TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 44 - Five Will Ride Forth

"The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills," Verin said placidly. "With ta'veren, what happens is what was meant to happen. It may be the Pattern demanded these extra days. The Pattern puts everything in its place precisely, and when we try to alter it, especially if ta'veren are involved, the weaving changes to put us back into the Pattern as we were meant to be." There was an uneasy silence that she did not seem to notice; she sketched on idly with the stick. "Now, however, I think perhaps we should make plans. The Pattern has brought us to Falme at last. The Horn of Valere has been taken to Falme."**

No start and stop -- constant.

**TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: GLOSSARY

ta'veren (tab-VEER-ehn): A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps all life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny. See also Pattern of an Age.**

No start and stop -- constant.

**TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 2 - Saidin

"Ta'veren," Loial began. Perrin waved at him to stop, but the Ogier could seldom be slowed, much less stopped, when one of his enthusiasms had him in its grip. He was accounted extremely hasty, by the Ogier way of looking at things. Loial pushed his book into a coat pocket and went on, gesturing with his pipe. "All of us, all of our lives, affect the lives of others, Min. As the Wheel of Time weaves us into the Pattern, the life-thread of each of us pulls and tugs at the life-threads around us. Ta'veren are the same, only much, much more so. They tug at the entire Pattern - for a time, at least - forcing it to shape around them. The closer you are to them, the more you are affected personally. It's said that if you were in the same room with Artur Hawkwing, you could feel the Pattern rearranging itself. I don't know how true that is, but I've read that it was. But it doesn't only work one way. Ta'veren themselves are woven to a tighter line than the rest of us, with fewer choices."**

No start and stop -- constant.

The for a time is for the time a person is ta'veren, the entire time they are.

**TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 8 - Jarra

"I mean I know as much as there is to know," Moiraine said sharply. Her dark-eyed gaze chastised Perrin like a whip. "The Pattern weaves finely around ta'veren, and others can follow the shape of those threads if they know where to look. Be careful your tongue does not unravel more than you can know."**

No start and stop -- constant.

**TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 1 - Seeds of Shadow

Elaida had only seen him once, supposedly a shepherd from the Two Rivers, in Andor, but looking every inch the Aielman. The Foretelling had come to her at the sight of him. He was ta'veren, one of those rare individuals who, instead of being woven into the Pattern as the Wheel of Time chose, forced the Pattern to shape itself around them, for a time at least. And Elaida had seen chaos swirling around him, division and strife for Andor, perhaps for even more of the world. But Andor must be kept whole, whatever else happened; that first Foretelling had convinced her of that. There were more threads, enough to snare Siuan in her own web. If the rumors were to be believed, there were three ta'veren, not just one. All three from the same village, this Emond's Field, and all three near the same age, odd enough to occasion a good deal of talk in the Tower. And on Siuan's journey to Shienar, near a year ago now, she had seen them, even talked with them. Rand al'Thor. Perrin Aybara. Matrim Cauthon. It was said to be mere happenstance. Just fortuitous chance. So it was said. Those who said it did not know what Elaida knew.**

No start and stop -- constant.

**BWB: The World of Robert Jordan’s The Wheel of Time, CHAPTER: 1 - The Wheel and the Pattern

In such a world change is simply a predetermined part of the mechanism. Only a few individuals, special souls known as ta'veren, can cause the fabric of the pattern to bend around them, changing the weave. These ta'veren are spun out as key threads around which all surrounding life-threads, perhaps in some cases all life-threads, weave to create change. These key threads often produce major variations in the Pattern of an Age. Such major changes are called, in the old tongue, ta'maral'ailen, or the "Web of Destiny."

Even the ta'veren and the Web of Destiny woven around them are bound by the Wheel and the Great Pattern; it is believed that the Wheel spins out ta'veren whenever the weave begins to drift away from the Pattern. The changes around them, while often drastic and unsettling for those who must live in the Age, are thought to be part of the Wheel's own correcting mechanism. The more change needed to bring the Great Pattern into balance, the more ta'veren spun out into the world.**

No start and stop -- constant.

Ta'veren always remain ta'veren until the Wheel makes them no longer ta'veren; the changes happen when they do, but ta'veren always remain ta'veren during the window that the Wheel makes them ta'veren. It's not on off; it's not intermittent. It's constant ta'veren.

**Mat’s lucky.**

So is Rand, and so is Perrin.

lurk: 2006-01-21

well this discussion has started again so let's put something else in there.

Mat has won a lot of money due to his luck. A lot of this money he uses to pay his soldiers from the band. It is pretty obvious that the band is important like the former band of old manetheren.

So the pattern probably needs mat and his band to bring back order. Soldiers need money, money can be won in games, make the captain or general extremely lucky so he can win the money to pay his soldiers, and do his thing in service of the pattern

just an idea though

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-01-23

{Callandor quote}No, my point is that you continually say he does not lose.{end quote}

And what I say is still entirely correct…I’ve simply given up on continually restating the long version of what I said because I’ve said it so many times - as per cut and pastes below. :

---------------------------------------

Since Tar Valon, there is not an example in the book of him losing more money than he started with at dice. I just can’t agree that never losing more money than you started with - whilst dicing, can ever be construed in any way as having bad luck whilst dicing.

….

Mat's dicing luck never seems to come and go. Since Tar Valon, Mat has not won every toss, so giving an example of one toss as proof that his luck comes and goes doesn't really work...what we do know is that over a long period of time, since Tar Valon, Mat has never lost more money than he started with - even that Tavern in KoD he shouted the bar drinks, and was not out of pocket, so in terms of winnings, he left while he was ahead (of maybe even, but definitely not at a loss).

…

No, you've removed it from the context of the rest of the paragraph to make it wrong. Mat's luck regarding dice moves in cycles yes (sometimes very lucky, and sometimes only lucky), but since Tar Valon it never goes into the negative. His luck with the dice since then has never been bad (ie he has never lost more than he won).

…

And yes, we’ve all acknowledged that his luck goes in cycles…although with the dice it’s different - that cycle only ranges within the positive from just lucky to extremely lucky

---------------------------------------

There are more examples of where I’ve qualified the exact same examples, scattered throughout my posts.

Yet throughout all of these you are unable to provide a single example of where Mat has lost (more than he has won).

My point as always is, Mat never losing (more than he as won : since you want me to continually give you the long version) is not the same as Ta’veren luck, which also includes bad luck.

The second point has always been (though I haven’t brought it up for a long while), Ta’veren luck effects other people to (eg the Maidens all throwing 6’s when Rand was around one night)…Mat’s luck with the dice NEVER does this.

Those are two very major differences

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-01-23

Oh yes, and Taveren 'effects' (as opposed to being Ta'veren) - which is the only thing Mat's luck with the dice could be argued as (a Ta'veren 'effect' that is) - Those Ta'veren effects come and go.

(I've previously quoted Rands thoughts on the effects coming and going)

Mat's luck with the dice, whilst it fluctuates - always does so, once again, within the positive (for Callandor : ie he never loses more than he wins)

Still, I expect that this particular argument could be debated - with no real result...it's only brought up as an adjoinder to the other two things I brought up.

Callandor: 2006-01-25

**Yet throughout all of these you are unable to provide a single example of where Mat has lost (more than he has won).**

Are you kidding me?! Your entire point, your entire arguement has been that Mat does not lose at dice -- I even quoted it in my last reply:

**Mat does lose…just not at dice.**

I quoted two specific examples in my last post, which you so conviently ignored.

**My point as always is, Mat never losing (more than he as won : since you want me to continually give you the long version) is not the same as Ta’veren luck, which also includes bad luck.**

1. Thank you for finally being specific enough to state something correct.

2. Why is it not ta'veren luck? Give me one good reason why it is? We've seen the exact same luck around Rand that occurs around Mat, and we have obvious reasons for the Pattern needing Mat's luck even.

So, what is the great reasoning here why Mat's case is not ta'vereness -- but Rand's case is?

**The second point has always been (though I haven’t brought it up for a long while), Ta’veren luck effects other people to (eg the Maidens all throwing 6’s when Rand was around one night)…Mat’s luck with the dice NEVER does this.**

Funny thing is -- ta'veren always survive their conflicts until they are no longer ta'veren. It's... lucky... so to say.

**Those are two very major differences.**

They're not.

**Mat's luck with the dice, whilst it fluctuates - always does so, once again, within the positive (for Callandor : ie he never loses more than he wins)**

Has fluctuate suddenly meant something other than "come and go" or "cycles" or the equivalent?

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-01-26

{Callandor quote} I quoted two specific examples in my last post, which you so conviently ignored. {end quote}

Ah…yes, I ignored those two examples (as per below) not because it was convenient, but because your first example related to cards (not dice), and your second shows Mat winning 9 out of 10 dice tosses…which proves exactly what I’ve been saying all along (that Mat ALWAYS wins more than he loses). Once more, you haven’t been able to supply a single example of Mat losing more than he wins (I seem to be saying that a lot). The simple fact is, there is no example anywhere in the books of Mat losing more than he wins (after TV).

{Callandor quotes} No, my point is that you continually say he does not lose.** {quote 2}1.Thank you for finally being specific enough to state something correct**{end quotes}

I’ve looked back over my posts, and there are only 2 places where I’ve only said “Mat never loses” (I said ‘at dice’) and they’ve both been in reference to a previous quote which contained the whole version.

Now, what I don’t understand, is you’ve continually acknowledged in past posts exactly what I’m talking about : eg.

{Callandor quote} Because you're limited to seeing bad luck only as quantifiable with the dicing{end quote} (which it is), and plenty of other references (I’ll post them again if you wish)

…so why do you pick up a shortened version of what I’m saying and suddenly pretend you don’t know what it means, or what it’s in reference to? (ie my saying mat never has bad luck with the dice = mat never loses more than he wins – because that’s what I’ve been discussing with you all along).

{Callandor quote}2. Why is it not ta'veren luck? Give me one good reason why it is?...{end quote}

I gave you three good reasons in my previous post.

{Callandor quote}We've seen the exact same luck around Rand that occurs around Mat….{end quote}

No, we haven’t. You once provided an example of maidens all throwing 6’s at dice around Rand…which is in stark contrast to Mat’s dicing luck only effecting Mat…no one else…just Mat.

{Callandor quote}and we have obvious reasons for the Pattern needing Mat's luck even.{end quote}

Now… going by your quote - why does Mat occasionally lose (more than he wins) at cards, but the same can never be said for dice?…I thought the object of the pattern was simply to provide Mat with money ? So cards and dice should be even…they both provide money…but they are not (both even).

Secondly - is Rand’s ability to channel because of his Ta’vereness ? It obviously isn’t, yet just as obviously the Pattern needs him to be able to channel.

No ones arguing with the specific context of your quote - just the method of delivery of Mat’s dicing luck.

{Callandor quote}Funny thing is -- ta'veren always survive their conflicts until they are no longer ta'veren. It's... lucky... so to say.{Callandor quote}

-Same as every character in every book ever written that needed that specific character to be there at the end…they survive until the end, no matter what.

And of course that sort of luck is debatable…I remember you using ‘walls falling on Mat’ as an example of bad luck.

{Callandor quote}Has fluctuate suddenly meant something other than "come and go" or "cycles" or the equivalent?{end quote}

Answered below…this quote has been posted twice by me (in answer to a previous question of yours)

{SnF quote}And yes, we’ve all acknowledged that his luck goes in cycles…although with the dice it’s different - that cycle only ranges within the positive from just lucky to extremely lucky{end quote}

Saidar Haran: 2006-01-27

Callandor: You quoted an example where Sulin and the other Maidens are dicing and Rand's Ta'avereness or however you spell it causes them to throw nothing but sixes.

THIS IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FROM MAT'S LUCK. Mat's luck with dice is always personal, never spreading to the others playing with him. This is why everyone has been continually ignoring that quote; it is a point that DOES NOT impede on our argument. If you can name one time where Mat's luck has "spread" so to speak, then I will concede your point, but until then, that quote has no relevance.

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-01-29

Actually, SH, I just noticed that in Callandor's last reply, he sidetracked that issue without giving any explantion of why he believes that : even though Mat's 'dicing luck' is only ever impersonal (limited only to Mat), and Rand's 'dicing luck' happily spreads to others (ie maidens all throwing 6's)...and yet Callandor still wishes to say both sets of 'dicing luck' are from the same source - Ta'vereness.

Callandor: 2006-01-29

**Ah…yes, I ignored those two examples (as per below) not because it was convenient, but because your first example related to cards (not dice), and your second shows Mat winning 9 out of 10 dice tosses…which proves exactly what I’ve been saying all along (that Mat ALWAYS wins more than he loses).**

No, you haven't. I'll spell it out simply for you one last time:

**Mat does lose…just not at dice.

And yes, we’ve all acknowledged that his luck goes in cycles…although with the dice it’s different - that cycle only ranges within the positive from just lucky to extremely lucky.**

You said Mat does not lose at dice. I've given specific examples against this. I consider this matter quite final.

** Once more, you haven’t been able to supply a single example of Mat losing more than he wins (I seem to be saying that a lot).**

And I never said that I would -- what haven't you been reading??

My point is that you said Mat does not lose -- he does lose. His luck can go in cycles.

**The simple fact is, there is no example anywhere in the books of Mat losing more than he wins (after TV).**

And if you actually read my statements, you'd see that I never said that I would show one that did.

**I’ve looked back over my posts, and there are only 2 places where I’ve only said “Mat never loses” (I said ‘at dice’) and they’ve both been in reference to a previous quote which contained the whole version.**

They're still incorrect.

**so why do you pick up a shortened version of what I’m saying and suddenly pretend you don’t know what it means, or what it’s in reference to?**

Because it makes for confusion. I've read through long posts before -- you're not saving me or anyone else any time by giving a "short version." You're short version is incorrect and completely misleading -- do not use it.

**I gave you three good reasons in my previous post.**

No, you did not. I'd really like to see those.

**No, we haven’t. You once provided an example of maidens all throwing 6’s at dice around Rand…which is in stark contrast to Mat’s dicing luck only effecting Mat…no one else…just Mat.**

But notice the effect -- it's the exact same. Two known ta'veren exhibiting the exact same effect. I wonder what the link is....

**Now… going by your quote - why does Mat occasionally lose (more than he wins) at cards, but the same can never be said for dice? I thought the object of the pattern was simply to provide Mat with money ? So cards and dice should be even…they both provide money…but they are not (both even)**

Why should they be even? Ta'veren effect the random; as Mat quite clearly shows the more random the better generally. And even at cards he wins more than enough.

**Secondly - is Rand’s ability to channel because of his Ta’vereness ? It obviously isn’t, yet just as obviously the Pattern needs him to be able to channel.**

The Wheel needed Rand to be a channeler, and his soul is that of a channeler. That's not "ta'veren" per se since there wasn't one about -- that's simple fate. The Wheel needed him to be a channeler, the same reason it needed him to be Aiel.

**No ones arguing with the specific context of your quote - just the method of delivery of Mat’s dicing luck.**

Yes, with absolutely no basis for it, except "Hey, Mat wins at dice a lot."

**-Same as every character in every book ever written that needed that specific character to be there at the end…they survive until the end, no matter what.**

Who gives what happens in other books -- we're discussing this series.

**And of course that sort of luck is debatable…I remember you using ‘walls falling on Mat’ as an example of bad luck.**

The wall falling on him was hardly good luck -- him surviving surely was.

**{SnF quote}And yes, we’ve all acknowledged that his luck goes in cycles…although with the dice it’s different - that cycle only ranges within the positive from just lucky to extremely lucky{end quote}**

And that is not an answer at all. Mat says specifically: "True, when his luck was in, it was perfect, but it ran in cycles, especially with things that had as much order as a deck of cards."

Mat says his luck runs in cycles. You're saying it does, but his "dice luck" is different. Again, you have absolutely no basis for this stance. It's just simple opinion, and you ignoring what the quote actually says.

**THIS IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FROM MAT'S LUCK. Mat's luck with dice is always personal, never spreading to the others playing with him.**

Good, great, and wonderful -- but it's the exact same result occuring around another known ta'veren. Two exactly the same results with dice happening around two known ta'veren. Again, I wonder what the link could be....

Saidar Haran: 2006-02-01

Callandor, you are ignoring the rest of a statement made and arguing with a part that you can prove. Mat's luck is PERSONAL. It only works on him and when HE is dicing. Rand's luck was ALL FOR OTHERS. And here's the other difference - HE WAS NOT PLAYING WITH THEM. It is Ta'averen there because that is what ta'averen do: they twist the threads around them and cause these things to happen.

Mat's luck is different: His dice luck is always for him, so it's not twisting anyone else's thread, when he loses, he has always won more, and it never effects anyone else, while Rand's Ta'averen luck is both good and bad like Mat's non-dicing luck, effects other people unlike Mat's dicing luck, and he isn't even there to notice its effects-unlike Mat's dicing luck.

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-02-01

Callandor, I’m not going to argue with you over your choosing to misinterpret something I’ve been discussing with you for a while…if I say to you 3-4 times in posts that Mat never loses more than he wins at dice (which explicitly means he does lose at dice sometimes), I’m hardly then going to say another thing meant to mean that Mat never loses at all. Thank you for acknowledging finally that Mat has never loses more than he wins at dice. That matter is settled then. Whether you choose to see that a counter to how normal Ta’veren luck works, which seems to both negative and positive effects, is up to you.

**But notice the effect -- it's the exact same. Two known ta'veren exhibiting the exact same effect. I wonder what the link is....**

Both have effected chance, which is a known effect of being Ta’veren (but in this world does not have to be Ta’veren). And that is where the comparison stops dead…there is a glaring major difference, which can’t be explained away as being purely Ta'veren. One effects everyone present (which is how Ta'veren is known to work), the other has only ever been just for Mat, no one else - just Mat.

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-02-01

Correction "but in this world does not have to be Ta'veren' is in reference to Mat's luck, not the luck exhibited by the maidens around Rand.

Callandor: 2006-02-02

**Callandor, you are ignoring the rest of a statement made and arguing with a part that you can prove. Mat's luck is PERSONAL. It only works on him and when HE is dicing. Rand's luck was ALL FOR OTHERS. And here's the other difference - HE WAS NOT PLAYING WITH THEM. It is Ta'averen there because that is what ta'averen do: they twist the threads around them and cause these things to happen.**

Again, exact same circumstances being shown around two ta'veren.

**Thank you for acknowledging finally that Mat has never loses more than he wins at dice.**

I'd really like you to point where I said he didn't.

**Both have effected chance, which is a known effect of being Ta’veren (but in this world does not have to be Ta’veren). And that is where the comparison stops dead…there is a glaring major difference, which can’t be explained away as being purely Ta'veren.**

It's the exact same outcomes being shown around two known ta'veren.

JakOShadows: 2006-02-03

It seems like we also have to look at the situations Mat was in. Whether or not it based purely on him being ta'veren, the situations were different between Mat and Rand. Rand and Perrin have become lords of sometime, and therefore have money provided for them. They don't have to make all their money. But Mat has to pay all his soldiers and didn't have land or lordship. So he needed money for all the events to happen. And it was just happenstance that he had taken so much to dicing. So the it could be that the pattern knew he needed the money, and used his gambling to set up the source. So all of this could be contributed to him being ta'veren. It's not completely out of the question. Now there could be another source to his luck, but as of this point in the series it cannot be proven.

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-02-03

**It's the exact same outcomes being shown around two known ta'veren.**

Like science, you can't have a theory that only explains half the behaviour, while the other half of the behaviour is either unexplainable by the theory, or contradicts the theory.

While acknowledging that Ta’veren luck can effect dicing (as evidenced by the Maidens all throwing 6’s around Rand) - I say that Mat's dicing luck only ever effecting him & never once effecting anyone else…contradicts the known Ta'veren luck which often effects everyone else around the Ta’veren (Maidens around Rand again, etc).

Callandor: 2006-02-04

**Like science, you can't have a theory that only explains half the behaviour, while the other half of the behaviour is either unexplainable by the theory, or contradicts the theory.**

Yeah, and this doesn't. Same effect -- around two ta'veren. Not hard to follow.

**While acknowledging that Ta’veren luck can effect dicing (as evidenced by the Maidens all throwing 6’s around Rand) - I say that Mat's dicing luck only ever effecting him & never once effecting anyone else…contradicts the known Ta'veren luck which often effects everyone else around the Ta’veren (Maidens around Rand again, etc).**

Ah, so it's ta'veren for Rand, but not ta'veren for Mat, even if it's the exact same outcome. We have situations where ta'veren effect effects a lot of people, and we have it where it effects a single person (look at any of Rand's surviving situations, Perrin's encounters with the Two Rivers people, Rand with the Sea Folk, Rand with the rebels -- hell, look at just about every single thing that has happened to Rand).

Yet, when this happens to Mat -- it's something else. Of course....

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-02-07

So far, there are a number of similarities, which we both well know, and the following are the differences : specifically in relation to the Maidens, seeing you've used that to support your argument the most :

Rand's 'luck' that effects such chance is :

-both good and bad

Mat's dicing luck :

-never loses more than he wins (ie in a session with the dice, his luck with the dice can never be described as bad)

Rand's luck that effects such chance :

-often effects multiple people

Mat's dicing luck :

-only ever effects Mat

Rand luck that effects such chance :

-never stays focused on one area

Mat's dicing luck :

-stays focused on games of pure chance (ie most noticably dice)

All these say that Rand's luck that effects chance is indiscriminate, while Mat's is entirely discriminating towards Mat and Mat alone.

The book quotes backing up what I’m saying above, are scattered throughout this Theory topic.

Now it seems you don’t wish to see these, and nor do you wish to offer an explanation for said differences.

As I said earlier Callandor, we'll have to agree to disagree.

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-02-07

Edit : Mat's luck that effects chance - I meant games of chance (wish we had an edit button)...actually what I think Mat's luck effects is even more complicated than that, but it's most evident manifestion is in the dice...so it's simpler to call it Mat's dicing luck :)

Anubis: 2006-02-07

**Like science, you can't have a theory that only explains half the behaviour, while the other half of the behaviour is either unexplainable by the theory, or contradicts the theory**

I'm sorry, what is scientific about using three examples to explain the nature of ta'veren?

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-02-09

? The nature of Ta'veren.

Anubis, we are talking about theories - and behaviours both explainable and unexplainable by those theories.

I did not say it's scientific. I said 'like science' because science deals in 'theories' (and laws).

This website deals in theories.

The rules in relation to the validity of a theory are very similar, or do you disagree ?

Callandor: 2006-02-09

**Rand luck that effects such chance :

-never stays focused on one area**

Again, look at any dangerous situation where Rand has survived. What is almost for sure the reason? Ta'veren. Effecting others, and effecting him. Want a specific example? How about when Rand is attacked by the four Darkfriend Asha'man in Cairhien. Rand's in the throne room, brooding over Elayne removing his banners in Caemlyn, Sorilea brings a tidbit of knowledge about Cadsuane to Rand, Rand decides to go visit Cadsuane. Moments after leaving the room, it's destroyed.

**TITLE: Path of Daggers, CHAPTER: 29 - A Cup of Sleep

Rand moved on, sweeping back and forth through the palace in arcs that slowly moved away from his apartments. Folded Light used very little of the Power--so little no man could have felt the use of saidin unless right on top of it--and he used it whenever anyone seemed about to see him. His attackers had not struck at his rooms on the chance he would be there. They had eyes-and-ears in the Palace. Maybe it had been ta'veren work that pulled him out of the apartments, if a ta'veren could work on himself, and maybe just happenstance, but perhaps his tugging at the Pattern could bring his attackers within his grasp while they thought him dead or injured. Lews Therin chuckled at the thought. Rand could almost feel the man rubbing his hands in anticipation.**

Rand thinks it's a maybe, but we know it's truely ta'veren effect because the Pattern demands that Rand continues living.

**Mat's dicing luck :

-stays focused on games of pure chance (ie most noticably dice)**

Well no crap what you label to be "dicing luck" is going to stay focused on games of chance -- that's like saying the qualities of ozone are that it's smog.

Mat's ta'vereness? Oh yeah, that also has a characteristic seen also in Rand, too: the "pull" of people toward them. Rand did it to Perrin; Mat did it to Talmanes and the Band.

**All these say that Rand's luck that effects chance is indiscriminate, while Mat's is entirely discriminating towards Mat and Mat alone.**

False, Rand's ta'veren effects routinely have a specific effect, many times toward "himself." I'd argue against the description a bit since situations with all three ta'veren involve them effecting other people to survive (Rand effecting Sorilea to come in at that time with the 5 Aes Sedai, and not 10 minutes later for example); the same thing is seen in Mat's luck: it's effecting an alternate object(s).

**Now it seems you don’t wish to see these, and nor do you wish to offer an explanation for said differences.**

I don't know how I can say that there is no difference, and still need to explain the differences.

The explaination is simple: you're taking a property of ta'vereness and saying it's something else with absolutely no basis. We know that Mat is ta'veren. We know that Rand is ta'veren. We see the exact same effects on dice around both Rand and Mat, but Rand's is attributed to ta'vereness, and Mat's is not according to you. We've seen Rand, Mat, and Perrin's ta'vereness be for "himself" in all the situations they have survived because the Pattern demanded that they survive.

Again, what makes you say that Mat's luck is something other than simply ta'vereness? Mat wins a lot? Rand survives a lot of situations, he must have a Survival Luck!

Or == the Pattern demands that Mat has the proceeds from his winnings for whatever reason, the same way that the Pattern demands that Rand, Mat, Perrin, and others too, survive their dangerous situations.

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-02-11

I finally decided to submit a negative theory on this. It pretty much covers every argument you just brought up, and more - so there's little point me continuing the debate with you here :)

Anubis: 2006-02-13

**I finally decided to submit a negative theory on this. It pretty much covers every argument you just brought up, and more - so there's little point me continuing the debate with you here :)**

Was there ever a point to this? RJ went out of his way to kill it. It needs to die. Let it die.

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-02-13

I was talking about the claim that Mat's dicing luck is Ta'veren...which is what we've been debating for a while now.

Or do you mean that RJ said that in a way Mat has the Dark Ones own luck ?

Aryl: 2006-04-15

Ok, this is iffy.

Has anybody here played the wot role playing game? Apparently it was endorsed by RJ himself, who even wrote a foreword for the core rulebook. Anyways here is my point.

On page 252 of the wheel of time rpg core rulebook it says under feats "The Dark One's Own Luck (X3)**" and lower on the same page it says " **Mat gets these feats for being ta'veren. If Mat ever stops being ta'veren, he loses these feats." In other words... mats luck is atributed to being ta'veren.

I personally felt otherwise, being as how it is way different than the average ta'veren luck, and also as mat has dice rolling in his head, that does not seem to me to be altogether normal as a ta'veren. However, nobody has written a ta'veren rulebook so far as I know, and it does seem to unpredictable.

As for the reference for the role playing game, sometimes resources are put out that contradict a book they have been based upon, but as far as I know RJ contributed to the writings within, giving his info on this.

I do like the theory about the dice ter'angreal but so far it does not seem to stick.

I do believe it was there for some reason, but I doubt that this is that reason. Sometimes RJ puts in details just for us, things to make the world more believable. Why would EVERY one of the stolen ter'angreal have a reason that needs to be mentioned in the book?

Good theory, but sadly, I don't think this is how it worked.

ps. I always thought that it was funny that Mat ended up being a "Soldier of Fortune". Interesting how he's mentioned in the prophecies that way.

pps. also, aren't rand,perrin,mat and indeed most of "important" people in the world just recycled heroes/villains? I mean, weren't they someone famous before, much like birgitte or gaidal cain? Artur Hawkwng etc.. Maybe Mat is a reincarnation of some INCREDIBLY lucky person. I would have made my own theory and said Artur is who mat used to be, but we saw him at falme, so obviously mat cannot be him.

Callandor: 2006-04-19

**As for the reference for the role playing game, sometimes resources are put out that contradict a book they have been based upon, but as far as I know RJ contributed to the writings within, giving his info on this.**

It's very hard to say with any degree of certainty whether we'd accept that as evidence. I personally am open to just about any evidence regarding the Wheel of Time; however, other people won't even acknowledge the BWB as a viable source at all, let alone interviews.

At best, I'd say it's interesting very low evidence.

**also, aren't rand,perrin,mat and indeed most of "important" people in the world just recycled heroes/villains?**

Well, everyone in the world is someone reborn; that's just the way this world works.

It's been suggested by the books and Jordan that all Heroes of the Horn are ta'veren; however, not all ta'veren are Heroes of the Horn. Rand definately is someone very important reborn into the world. Mat and Perrin easily could be as well, and if not they almost certainly will be added. Beyond that, it get's incredibly hard to even guess let alone say with any degree of certainty.

Canan Urgas: 2006-04-25

Quote "Where does mat's luck come from?

The first time we see Mat's winning streak is in Tar Valon when he sneaks out of the tower after being healed from his ordeal with the ruby hilted dagger(TDR). He goes gambling and wins EVERY SINGLE toss of the dice. Even Mat notices the change, he thinks to himself that he has always been lucky, but not this lucky.

O.K. so where does it come from.

Also in TDR ny, eg, and el are reading a list of the ter'angreal that have been stolen by liandrin and the other 12 Black sisters. One of them is described as 5 connected dice with 6's showing on the top of each (sound familiar? it's mat's chapter heading) this ter'angreal suspends chance, a coin flipped 100 times lands on heads 100 times or even on it's side. (I wish I had the actual quote, sorry)

So Mat's luck definitely comes from this ter'angreal but who had a chance to use it on him? Lanfear comes to visit Mat in the tower right before he leaves and he feels her channel at him but we never see any result to this channeling. She also tells him that he is important"

i imagined that mat already had luck but it was "enhanced" if you will, by th shadar logoth taint. maybe this is wrong but thats what i thought. about the terangreal thing i am certain that isnt true. there are terangreal that duplicate a taverens twist, so does that mean they were used on rand, mat, and perrin? if so, why nobody else? i dont think anything like that has been used on any of the taveren that gives them abilities afterwards other than mats luck improving after he was healed.

Callandor: 2006-04-25

**The first time we see Mat's winning streak is in Tar Valon when he sneaks out of the tower after being healed from his ordeal with the ruby hilted dagger(TDR).**

No, it's first briefly remarked about in The Great Hunt:

**TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 3 - Friends and Enemies

"What's the matter, Rand?" Mat asked. "You're as white as your shirt. Hey! Where did you get those clothes? You turning Shienaran? Maybe I'll buy myself a coat like that, and a fine shirt." He shook his coat pocket, producing a clink of coins. "I seem to have luck with the dice. I can hardly touch them without winning."**

**One of them is described as 5 connected dice with 6's showing on the top of each (sound familiar? it's mat's chapter heading) this ter'angreal suspends chance, a coin flipped 100 times lands on heads 100 times or even on it's side. (I wish I had the actual quote, sorry)**

No, it is not Mat's chapter icon:

**TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 25 - Questions

Nynaeve carried the smoothed-out pages to the table and set them down. She hesitated before spreading the others out and running her finger down one page, then the next. "Here's one Mat would enjoy," she said in a voice much too light and airy. "Item. A carved cluster of six spotted dice, joined at the corners, less than two inches across. Use unknown, save that channeling through it seems to suspend chance in some way, or twist it." She began to read aloud. "'Tossed coins presented the same face every time, and in one test landed balanced on edge one hundred times in a row. One thousand tosses of the dice produced five crowns one thousand times.'" She gave a forced laugh. "Mat would love that."

Mat's chapter icon is five dice.

**So Mat's luck definitely comes from this ter'angreal but who had a chance to use it on him? Lanfear comes to visit Mat in the tower right before he leaves and he feels her channel at him but we never see any result to this channeling. She also tells him that he is important"**

Well, she didn't use it on Mat:

**“Question: In the Dragon Reborn, Lanfear visits Mat as he is recuperating from his one power surgery over the dagger. At one point she stretches out her hand towards him ... So it was about this time that Mat's really really really weird luck and the dice rolling in his head began, is this a connection or coincidence?

Jordan: That is a coincidence. When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true. It wasn't a gift from Lanfear, though.”**

And a final point, one has to actively channel into the dice ter'angreal in order to make it work. IE: Mat would have to carry it around, and knowingly channel into it to have an effect. Mat is not a channeler, and hardly does any action even remotely close to this.

And since I doubt this will fly, there is no reference, or implication, or anything that comes close to an active ter'angreal "tossing" it's effect onto a person for whatever reason. The closest thing to this is the Oath Rod, and that's fundamentally different from the dice ter'angreal.

**about the terangreal thing i am certain that isnt true.**

It's not, so don't even consider it. It's more dead than Taim is Demandred.

Saidar Haran: 2006-04-26

It has already been established that the cause is NOT, by any means, the dice ter'angreal. I won't tell you to read the replies because of the lenghth, but it is because of the fact that the ter'angreal only suspends chance when someone ACTIVELY channels. Also, I believe RJ has said that the dice ter'angreal did not cause the luck - there are no known episodes of someone being "endowed" with ter'angreal (possible exception of gholam aside, they are constructs not people).

On another note, the dice ter'angreal was six dice, not five.

wooandwow: 2006-09-08

Interesting theory there. After recently rereading TDR i wondered what the point was of the description of the missing ter-angreal that created luck. After 11 books it is apparent that jordan barely ever gives information without a purpose so maybe it was the ter-angreal. But is it realistic that Lanfear did it, certainly not for the DO as he wanted Mat kept in TV. Maybe for her own plans though, and this was what Ishmael was scolding her for in Chapter 36 of TDR in Perrins visit to

Anubis: 2006-09-19

[b]**“Question: In the Dragon Reborn, Lanfear visits Mat as he is recuperating from his one power surgery over the dagger. At one point she stretches out her hand towards him ... So it was about this time that Mat's really really really weird luck and the dice rolling in his head began, is this a connection or coincidence?

Jordan: That is a coincidence. When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true. It wasn't a gift from Lanfear, though.”**[/b]

STOP POSTING HERE. LET IT DIE. PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD LET THIS STUPID THEORY DIE.

TheDragonMustLive: 2006-12-23

Personally, I thought it was rather obvious that the luck was a combination of: a) Mat's natural luck, b) the ta'veren twisting of chance, enhanced by c) the Shadar Logoth taint. I imagine we would have seen it sooner had Mat had time to gamble while dying from the taint. The Wheel needed him to be exceptionally lucky--that's why it wove Shadar Logoth into the mix.

eyeless: 2007-01-19

well in book 3 mat points out that he uses the other gamblers dice... chapter 30 "From the looks some of the men gave him, he was glad he had left his own dice in his pouch." also mat does is not able to sense channeling at this point and time in the series

Lord of Ravens: 2007-11-08

also Mat wasn't always lucky. He talks about how he gambled with a merchant guard back in the Two Rivers and lost and was beaten by his father for loosing money. He becomes lucky after he gets the dagger. He is lucky in shinar and is lucky gambling with Hurin on the way to the tower

Davian93: 2007-11-26

**** also Mat wasn't always lucky. He talks about how he gambled with a merchant guard back in the Two Rivers and lost and was beaten by his father for loosing money. He becomes lucky after he gets the dagger. He is lucky in shinar and is lucky gambling with Hurin on the way to the tower ****

He becomes lucky after he becomes ta'veren...wow what an amazing coincidence.

bigdoug1971: 2007-11-26

WRONG! At Dragoncon '05 Robert Jordan was asked this question specifically. His response was straight out that his luck is not a gift from Lanfear.

When asked what Lanfear was doing Robert jordan replied that she was checking his health.

bigdoug1971: 2007-11-28

Robert Jordan answered this question at Dragoncon '05. He said specifically that Lanfear has nothing to do with Mat's luck. He also went on to say that when Lanfear touched him with the Power, it was to check his health. His luck and meeting Lanfear are nothing more than a coincidence. That comes straight from the creator's mouth.

Realnow: 2008-08-05

I think the fact that, firstly, Perrin doesn't have wolves in his mind because he is ta'veren. He was born a wolfbrother, not necessarily linked to being ta'veren, but a seperate condition. Same with Rand, who is affected by his channeling which is another characteristic that many people who aren't ta'varen have.

So why is Mat's luck simply ta'veren? Wouldn't have to have been augmented from what Rand and Perrin already have through their warping of the pattern which would be equal to Mat's?

Basically Mat is clearly far more lucky than other ta'veren and its either a natural ability like being a wolfbrother or channeler, or even a sniffer, etc; or else something that was done to him by the OP somehow.

flik98: 2008-10-22

what about from Verin?

she could have stolen the lucky dice (she provides the notes to Egwene regarding them and remains one of the most mysterious characters - a proper Aes Sedai!)

she was involved in Mat's healing:

TDR, Healing, page 209:

'The Amyrlin Seat stook at Mat's head, and Leane at his feet. Four Aes Sedai stood down one side of the table, and three down the other. Sheriam joined the three. One of them was Verin.'

We have heard Verin say 'as my father would say, it's time to toss the dice' which is frequently an expression used by Mat post healing.

Of KEY interest also is a comment he makes at the end of TDR, chapter 'Into the Stone' p.631:

'"Burn me, I do not have time for this. Time to toss the dice."

For a chilling moment he thought the words in his head had been strange.'

Voices in his head perhaps? I do find this comment VERY odd.

There are also times throughout the series, especially in the early novels of Mat 'shivering' and getting 'goosebumps' when Moirane and other Aes Sedai are around him. Perhaps not to dicuss in this theory, i should find some references!

Prince of Ravens: 2008-10-26

I like the idea of Verin being involved in Mat's luck.

Kolaz: 2009-10-29

As earlier noted, the first time Mat's look truly manifested was in TDR 30, The First Toss. While Mat HAD always been unusually lucky, it had never been to this extent. I always attributed it to the coming and goings of Ta'veren. When the pattern needed him lucky, for example when he was leaving Tar Valon, he won. If his luck was not needed it went back to his still abnormally high luck. I can't recall the exact chapter, but at one point Loial says something about feeling Artur Hawkwing's ta'verenness SOMETIMES twisting the pattern in front of your very eyes. Ta'veren do not always affect the pattern so strongly, therefore Mat's Ta'veren caused luck could come and go, much like Rand's own Ta'verenness. Sometimes Rand causes extremely strange things to happen, while other times it is relatively way less prevalent.

graeylin13: 2010-01-10

Gonna go out on a limb here and point out that Mat didn't have his medallion until after being healed in Tar Valon and the events there..so it in no way provides his luck...and does protect him from the one power as used by females at least..so if he had had it then whatever lanfear was doing would not have caused anything to him but the usual coldness he feels when it cancels the power being used on him....I don't mind various theories about the books...but at least hope the people responding to them get the facts straight when doing so. As for where his luck came from...I personally believe it has always been with him and as the story continues on towards it's end...it has gained in "power" to match the gaining power the Dark One has in the world. each of the 3 (Mat, Perrin, Rand) all have abilities that make them special and help in the fight aginst the Dark One. Mats luck is one of them along with his generalship and fighting abilities.

gcozyone: 2010-02-23

I never really thought Matt's luck this way, but I definitely like the theory. I always tied Matts luck to the door frame ter'angreal, but your theory makes more sense.

Thom as cain: 2010-06-25

Not to totally crush your theory, but what use would Lannfear have for Mat being extremely lucky?, in fact, because she couldn't manipulate him, it would be more likely for his luck to run against her than for her, thereby making the thought that she made him lucky after she got angry at him, extremely unlikely.

When Mat's luck really started to come about was right about when he got a hold of the dagger, yes it got stronger when he was healed, but that can be explained in the same way that dagger luck, and goosebumps when women channel can. When the dagger is eating away at Mat's soul, it's doing just that, taking away pieces of what makes Mat himself. But think, wouldn't you die if part of your soul was destroyed?, my answer, not necessarily. I think that any one person's "being", be it mind, soul, or anything else, is all that keeps there former incarnations from taking over. If say, Mashadar were to suck out your soul, you would die, period, because it was so much damage so fast. but with slow damage to your soul, your former incarnations would have time to fill in the gaps, thus keeping you alive, in a sense. This would explain how the shadar logoth dagger worked, because your being would be slowly replaced with that of one of your reincarnations as a darkfreind, effectively turning you to the shadow.

Now I believe, (correct me if I am wrong), that there are certain people that are spun back into the pattern every time, and are always on the same side, in this case, Mat. there being no darkfreind reincarnations to fill in the gaps in Mat's soul, bits of each of his past lives, all get shoved in there. If one of Mat's past reincarnations could channel, it could have the ability of sensing it when a woman channels rub off onto Mat, explaining all of the goosebumps. Also, we know from the Ter'Angreal, that long ago, it was possible to alter luck. Say, in Mat's channeling life, he made use of a weave, or Ter'Angreal, that made him incredibly lucky, and the effects rubbed off onto Mat.

We have seen where the goosebumps, memories and luck may have come from, but why did the luck and memories suddenly jump after healing?, simple, to heal Mat, they dug out part of his very being, (the tainted part) thereby giving more room for ancestors to crowd in, even the lucky ones. the reason that his memories didn't fill in is because, his reincarnations were filling up the spots that were necessary, and memories aren't really that pivotal to life. Also, his memories did start to get spotted with battles and the old tongue even at that point.

Thank you all for listening, have a nice day.(and please, point out flaws, I really do want to know!!)

evilcarebear: 2010-08-03

I honestly believe that Lanfear is not the cause of Mat's luck. Mat's luck is a part of him, just like Rand's channeling and Perrin's wolfness. And for those people who believe that that means that they are all caused by them being ta'veren, i also disagree.

Rand's being able to channel is not caused by ta'veren, because if it was, all the Asha'man and Aes Sedai would be ta'veren, and we hear throughout the books how rare ta'veren are. Perrin's wolf thing isn't ta'veren either,because we know that Elyas Machera can talk to wolves, but he isn't a ta'veren. Also, Moiraine says that she heard about that happening before, but she didn't mention it having anything to do with ta'veren.

Therefore, i believe that Mat's luck is just a part of him, like the other two. It would be unfair for the other two to be born with awesome powers and leave Mat out.

Whoops, i just got totally off track. But Lanfear wouldn't have done that. Her visit to Mat was probably just curiosity, and trying to control Rand's friends.

Marie Curie 7: 2010-08-09

evilcarebear:
"I honestly believe that Lanfear is not the cause of Mat's luck. Mat's luck is a part of him, just like Rand's channeling and Perrin's wolfness. And for those people who believe that that means that they are all caused by them being ta'veren, i also disagree.

Rand's being able to channel is not caused by ta'veren, because if it was, all the Asha'man and Aes Sedai would be ta'veren, and we hear throughout the books how rare ta'veren are. Perrin's wolf thing isn't ta'veren either,because we know that Elyas Machera can talk to wolves, but he isn't a ta'veren. Also, Moiraine says that she heard about that happening before, but she didn't mention it having anything to do with ta'veren.

Therefore, i believe that Mat's luck is just a part of him, like the other two. It would be unfair for the other two to be born with awesome powers and leave Mat out.

Whoops, i just got totally off track. But Lanfear wouldn't have done that. Her visit to Mat was probably just curiosity, and trying to control Rand's friends."

Well, it's probably good that you believe that Lanfear was not responsible for Mat's luck, since RJ said that was the case. She was just checking his health:

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DragonCon 4 September 2005 - Emma reporting

Question: In The Dragon Reborn, Lanfear visits Mat as he is recuperating from his One Power surgery over the dagger. At one point she stretches out her hand towards him and he feels a tingle going over him, somebody interrupts them, and she turns her head and sobs, at about the same time a member of Black Ajah stole angreal and ter'angreal out of the Tower cache, one of which was a ter'angreal that was known to have some effect on chance. So it was about this time that Mat's really really really weird luck and the dice rolling in his head began. Is this a connection or coincidence?

Jordan: That is a coincidence. When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true. It wasn't a gift from Lanfear, though.

Question Part 2: In that case, what was Lanfear doing?

Jordan: She was checking his health. She doesn't care very much, except that he is important to Rand, to Lews Therin, him and Perrin both, so she is interested in, the one she wants mainly is Lews Therin, or wanted anyway, and uh, so she is interested in these other two ta'veren, who seemed to be tied in with him, because they might be important to him.
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