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and and Lews Therin

by Blademaster: 2004-03-13 | Not yet rated

Previous Categories: Miscellaneous

As we all know, Rand is Lews Therin Reborn. Furthermore, we know that Rand hears Lews Therin's voice in his head. I postulate that This voice is neither a hallucination, nor as some have suggested, is it the case that there are two souls or some such in Rand's head. I think that Rand is actually talking to Lews Therin, and that there exists a bond between times between the Dragon as Lews Therin and the Dragon as Rand.

This explains the facts; Since it actually is Lews Therin, his information is correct, such as all the weaves Rand 'remembers' and the terminology and such. If Lews Therin were merely a hallucination, it is too much to believe that ALL of Lews Therin's information would be right. This, in my mind, proves that Lews Therin is not a hallucination.

However, we also know that Rand IS Lews Therin Telamon reborn, thus has the same soul. This precludes Lews Therin's soul being inside Rand along with Rand's own soul, because they are the same. It would be like saying that somebody drank a glass of water, and then drank THAT SAME water again: it is impossible. Thus, the two soul idea cannot be true.

Therefore, we come to the conclusion that Rand IS talking to Lews Therin as a seperate entity, but Lews Therin CANNOT be there inside Rand's head. Thus my theory that Rand is talking to Lews Therin through time, and vise versa.

Not only does this explain the logistics of how the voice works, but is also explains why Lews Therin continually asks why he "has a madman inside his head" From Rand's point of view, it seems as if he is hearing Lews Therin's voice inside his head, but from Lews Therin's perspective, it is as if HE is hearing Rand's voice is HIS head.

The one flaw in this is the natural question "how does it work", because it obviously has nothing to do with the one power, otherwise SOMEBODY would have noticed, be it male or female. However, if we think of events as "the pattern", we can view events as an actual weaving. Rand always states that travelling, for him, is like scrunching the pattern together, and then creating a connection between the two places in the pattern. I suggest that this is much the same, except that instead of scrunching the pattern together spacially, I think that it is being scrunhed temporally. Rand does this using saidin when he travels, but as I stated before, there is obviously no saidin being used here. Thus, I think that it is a ta'averen effect. It is stated multiple times that ta'averens warp the pattern around them, and both Rand and (I assume) Lews Therin are/were incredibly powerful Ta'averen, thus I think that the combined pull of the two creates a bond. i think of it as two magnets on a piece of cloth; they pull at each other, and scrunch of the cloth between them until they are only separated by a thin boundary. One might ask why this doesn't happen with Rand and Mat, or rand and Hawkwing for that matter. Well, firstly, neither are as powerful Ta'averen as Rand, and secondly, I believe that once the thread of Rand and the thread of Lews Therin come close, they bleed into each other; after all, they are the same soul, so the pattern may well see them as being the same, and, seeing that they are so near to each other, attempt to knit them together.

This is my explanation of the how behind Lews Therin's voice in Rand's head.

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Comments

Tamyrlin: 2004-04-02

I have heard this explanation before and it is too "Raymond Feist" for me. I don't think Jordan is going there. In Jordan's world, memories are attached to the soul, as demonstrated by Birgitte. She can remember, or could while in T'A'R, all of the lives she lived; in other words, the memories of those lives were imprinted on the soul. But, as she also demonstrates, those memories fade when a new life is taken in the physical world, something that probably happens over the course of the first two years of an infants life, in Jordan's world, so it wouldn't be remembered anyway. So, Rand's ability to access memories imprinted on his soul is nothing novel. The "speaking" to him, is simply something his mind has done to rationalize the additional memories he is having. If you can remember, Rand first has memories that are not his own, is told he is the Dragon Reborn, and begins wondering if those memories come from LTT, before LTT supposedly "speaks." In essence, he has created two personalities, or his brain has, to compensate. In my own humble opinion, I believe the taint is responsible for the natural veil between the current life and previous lives.

snakes-n-foxes: 2004-04-02

I'm not sure if I'm a believer in the 2-souls theory or not.

However, for this particular theory to be true, Mins prophecy from aCoS chapter 33 needs to be explained “I saw you and another man. I couldn't make either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and. . . . I don't know what it means, Rand, except that one of you die and one doesn't.”

*** However, we also know that Rand IS Lews Therin Telamon reborn, thus has the same soul. This precludes Lews Therin's soul being inside Rand along with Rand's own soul, because they are the same.***

This isn't necessarily true - only if you take the wording literally, and we all know that prophecy can rarely be taken literally. If it is taken figuratively, then it is quite possible that LTT's soul, somehow survived the destruction of his body and dragonmount, and finally found a home in Rand ? Thus the dragon is Reborn into this world - figuratively.

The other flaw here, is even the Dark One cannot reach far out of time in the Pattern (eg, for resurection purposes), but someone LTT reaches across 3000 years ?

All up I liked the theory, just not sure I believe it.

Callandor: 2004-04-02

**As we all know, Rand is Lews Therin Reborn. Furthermore, we know that Rand hears Lews Therin's voice in his head. I postulate that This voice is neither a hallucination, nor as some have suggested, is it the case that there are two souls or some such in Rand's head. I think that Rand is actually talking to Lews Therin, and that there exists a bond between times between the Dragon as Lews Therin and the Dragon as Rand.**

Rand is the Dragon Reborn. He has two personalities. One personality is himself, Rand al'Thor, the other is that of Lews Therin Telamon. This personality most likely is due to memories coming from Rand's previous lfe, as Lews Therin, along with taint induced madness.

**Q:The question is, with Rand and LTT, do they have 1 soul or 2 souls in the body?

A: They have 1 soul with 2 personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I cobbled together.**

Darren: 2004-04-03

I can't believe people still argue about this, much less that there are factions such as the "2 souls" one.

Rand al'Thor is the Dragon (LTT) reborn. He's referred to by other heroes of the horn as LTT. He's one soul, reincarnated, but a soul is not the same thing as a personality (This is why I've always tended to think Aviendha is Ilyena Reborn, but that's another story...)

However, as it says in the text, some people will argue about whether water is wet.

charliec: 2004-04-03

Quite so Callandor.

**Therefore, we come to the conclusion that Rand IS talking to Lews Therin as a seperate entity, but Lews Therin CANNOT be there inside Rand's head. Thus my theory that Rand is talking to Lews Therin through time, and vise versa.**

I think you're over complicating matters Blademaster, it doesn't need 2 souls in one head, or a link over time. He has one soul, but for some reason a former manifestation of that soul is still active, and distinct from the current one. The reason Rand and Lews Therin can eventually merge is that they are actually the same person... why one dies and the other lives is harder to say, but possibly because the dominant one will subsume the other.

Tamyrlin: **In my own humble opinion, I believe the taint is responsible for the natural veil between the current life and previous lives.**

I'm not sure I get quite what you mean... do you think that were it not for the DO all the characters would remember all of ther lives? Why?

Tamyrlin: 2004-04-04

Tamyrlin: **In my own humble opinion, I believe the taint is responsible for the natural veil between the current life and previous lives.**

I'm not sure I get quite what you mean... do you think that were it not for the DO all the characters would remember all of ther lives? Why?"

---

Oops, my fault. I meant to say, I believe the taint is responsible for the breakdown of the barrier between previous memories imprinted on Rand's soul and his current set of memories.

: 2004-04-04

This might be a seperate theory altogether, as it answers (hopefully) a number of dilemmas, but I will post it here anyway.

I think what Blademaster is looking for is NOT whether or not there are 2 souls (a ridiculous notion in my mind) but more as to the logistics, to use his expression. So finding the topic interesting I read the theory and the posts. Tamyrlins response triggered me, to come up with this.

I have no doubt that the “voice” in Rands head is actually Lews Therins, I have no doubt that Rand has the same soul as Lews Therin had (I think Callandor is right to insist that Rand is NOT simply Lews Therin reborn he is the DRAGON reborn, and so was Lews Therin), therefore there is only one soul in play here.

Tamyrlin told or reminded us (I will not find the quotes for this), that when the heroes of the horn reside in Tel'aran'rhoid (henceforth T'A'R), the memories of the earlier lifespans the soul have lived, are available to the “person”(for lack of better term).

I believe that Rand may have “cheated” the pattern to think he was dead, and therefore gaining the memories of an earlier incarnation, when he entered T'A'R in the flesh. although in an incomplete form, as he still distinquishes between his and Lews Therins memories. This resolves 3 dilemmas.

1. How the voice and memories came to be in Rands head

2. Why it is dangerous and evil to enter T'A'R in the flesh.

3. Min's view of two men, apparently joining to one. (The memories sorts of seeping in again)

Ok, so as always look for holes, and as always there are plenty. It seems that Tamyrlins notion that the taint is breaking down the natural barriers that should prevent this from happening, is also valid. This would explain why none of those forsaken, who we know entered in the flesh, seem affected, and also Egwene is unaffected, as the taint obviously does not touch females.

Also why does Rand not gain the memories of yet earlier Dragons. Well I don't know but it seems to me that an ordinary Hero like Birgitte is reborn much more frequently than the Dragon who is only reborn I thnk to either end an age or battle the Dark One – this might always be the same. I think Birgitte mentions at some point that she cannot remember ALL her lives only the most recent ones(not only a few though). But maybe the Dragon - only being reborn a much greater intervals - can only recall the latest life.

I have one serious reservation about this myself, the whole theory hinges on Rand not hearing Lews Therins voice before he entered T'A'R the first time. I don't think he did but I have no way of verifying this at the time (no books).

So tell me of the holes I didn't stop

Brendan Reborn: 2004-04-04

I like the idea of what blademaster is saying, that in LTT times, he is hearing Rand's voice, and vice versa. There is one problem though.

If your theory is right, then what is LTT getting from this link? We know Rand is being told all of these idea's and names of weaves, but what is Rand telling LTT to help him out?

I love the idea though. I remember a quote saying that the pattern of this age is just a part of yet a bigger pattern. Maybe the pattern of each age is woven just so, and these two particular ages kind of meet one another.

Just my two cents.

Callandor: 2004-04-04

**I like the idea of what blademaster is saying, that in LTT times, he is hearing Rand's voice, and vice versa. There is one problem though.**

1. We SAW LTT die.

2. LTT died in the Age of Legends, the Second Age; it is presently the Third Age.

3. How could one soul be inhabiting two seperate bodies, over time, and have them communicate of 3000+ years of time, simultaniously?

udernation: 2004-04-05

In response to what is LTT getting, my guess would be RAND KNOWS WHAT LTT IS GOING TO DO - LTT is getting advance info - this could even explain how he did so well against the forsaken who seem to me to have more skill than the Dragon...ta'verness turns the tide, but they are better at what they do.

charliec: 2004-04-05

I'm pretty sure that Rand hears Lews Therin before he enters TAR in the flesh (and certainly before he starts doing it frequently). My impression was that the danger of entering the dream in the flesh was that you lost a degree of humanity, as shown by Luc/Isam/Slayer's odd scent.

If the breakdown of the veil between Rand and LT is due to the taint, why doesn't something similar happen to all channelers?

Possibly Rand being the Dragon Reborn signifies something different to just the Dragon's Soul being spun out again? I'm not entirely sure how to phrase it, but perhaps this is a rather an abnormal re-birth, what with all the prophecies and that... and it's not just the Dragon who's been reborn, but also the actual personality of LT (to some extent)?

Anubis: 2004-04-05

not to mention its a blatant rip off of raymond feist as well as the fact that there is absolutly NO evidence that lews therin ever heard voices of any kind.

Foxwolf: 2004-04-06

I think it's fairly obvious that Rand and LTT aren't talking through time because LTT remembers being trapped in the box as vividly as Rand does.

Also Rand first entered the dream world when he killed Ish. Well before he started hearing voices.

Unicorn: 2004-04-06

Charliec

** I'm pretty sure that Rand hears Lews Therin before he enters TAR in the flesh**

You may just be right but I'm still unsure.

But the taint is on Saidin therefore it should not touch female channelers, and we haven't had all that many POV's on male channelers, who isn't known forsaken, actually I don't think we have had any POV on a male channeler besides Rand of who we know for sure is not a darkfriend. The only clue we have is Cadsuane asking Rand if he has started hearing voices yet. That I', sure many would take as a sure think all male channelers hear voices but I'm not so sure. We know that Cadsuane has had a lot of dealings with male channelers, but my personal belief is that she has stumpeled upon a fair number who has accidently put themselves in TAR and therefore started hearing voices. That is one way, which takes into account Cadsuanes question.

The other way is that you not only need to be in TAR but also have to be a hero of the horn, or ta'veren (mayba and I belive all heroes of the horn are Ta'veren).

As to the scent of Slayer, that might be personally I think that is because of the nature of the Luc/Isam “construction” for lack of a better word – you could say they cancel each others scent. Ofcourse If they(slayer) was made in TAR it's a whole new ball game

Anubis:

You are right Lew therin apparently never heard voices but then when he was alive Rand wasn't born.... And we have what my great hero Dr. Emmett Brown would call a breakdown in the space-time continuum, and we are basically back in the what would happen if I went back in time and killed my grandfather before he met my grandmother, (Easy really you would get confirmation that your Granma was fooling around). It cannot be answered and I don't think Jordan works that way, everything else seems to well thought out on the physics side given Jordans background. So I agree it is too spacey for Jordan

Brendan Reborn: 2004-04-06

**If the breakdown of the veil between Rand and LT is due to the taint, why doesn't something similar happen to all channelers?**

in response to that question, it must have hapenned to other channelers. Cadsuane entered, asking Rand about the voices. Though she is not red ajah, she has dealt with more men channeling than most of the reds now. The only safe conclusion to come to there, is that other men have heard voices.

charliec: 2004-04-07

Good point Foxwolf.

Still, he only went once then... and didn't start going regularly until he'd killed Rahvin and learnt how to do it.

If entering TAR in the flesh was so dangerous that one trip could do major damage then I doubt Rahvin, Ishy, and Demandred would want to use it.

Unicorn: 2004-04-07

Charliec this is where the taint comes into it all - the taint does not touch Ishamael Rahvin and Demandred. The DO protects them. I'm not up to finding the quote(s) but Asmodean makes comments at least twice to indicate this. Once telling Rand that the black cords was his protection and he will now go mad just as Rand will, and once to hilmself commenting that grasping Saidin is like drinking raw sewage. I'll find if you want me to.

snakes-n-foxes: 2004-04-07

Certainly the taint must be considered a possibility.

I've always wondered though...most people seem to agree that the ability to channel is attached to the soul. Therefore a person who can channel in this life could channel in a previous life. So, if the taint allowed a person to 'talk to' or 'access memories' from a previous life, then wouldn't that mean they would be able to access memories of how to channel, how to make weaves etc ?

Admittedly there is nothing to say that people like Mazrim Taim or Logain didn't learn that way...

...although...has anyone else noticed that Logain doesn't seem to be in the least bit mad ? And also, I'm sure that somewhere in the books, it describes him as middle aged. From memory most people went mad within 2-3 years of learning to channel, some faster, and some slower...but...15-20 years slower with no sign of the taint ?

Anubis: 2004-04-07

yeah but logains hasnt been channeling all that long. maybe 2 years ish? i think less. someone with a sense of time should prolly make a statment, but logain has deffinatly not been channeling for a long time.

Callandor: 2004-04-08

**yeah but logains hasnt been channeling all that long...but logain has deffinatly not been channeling for a long time.**

Logain had been channeling for six years in LoC.

Anubis: 2004-04-10

i would say that 6 is pushing it, but stil within the bounds of reason. and logain may have limited his channeling before he declared himself.

Callandor: 2004-04-10

**i would say that 6 is pushing it, but stil within the bounds of reason. and logain may have limited his channeling before he declared himself.**

Egwene to Logain:

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 52 - Weaves of the Power

"I want your thoughts, yes. Surely you must have some. In Caemlyn with him, you would very likely be given a place of honor. Here, you may be gentled any day. Now. You've held off the madness six years, you say. How much chance is there, do you think, that any men who come to him might do as well?"**

Limiting or not, Logain has been channeling for six years.

MotocrossChik228: 2004-04-12

I don't believe this 2-soul theory, like someone else said, this theory has been disproved by example (ie Birgitte, Lews memories are becoming unearthed within Rand, which could lead some to believe there are 2 souls within one body but I believe that they are one soul and Rand is only beginning to remember his past life as Lews Therin.

Caracarn: 2004-04-14

I don't believe the two souls theory but i think that Tamyrlin might be on to something. I think that due to his constant chanelling of saidin, causing atleast minor madness, and the fact that he does have some of LTT's memories has caused him to generate the LTT voice in his head, a kind of self imposed schizophrenia if you will.

sahilj: 2004-04-15

Hi

I believe that since the world is "run" by the Wheel, and the Ages repeat, then it is also possible that the all the Ages exist together at the same time, on a different plane (such as T'A'R'). As such, it is possible that LTT is communicating with Rand in his time (proof of this is how sometimes LTT sounds mad, and sometimes he does not - one of the Forsakes, Ishmael I think, Healed LTT's madness after he killed Illeyna - Prologue EoTW), while Rand is communicating with him from the future.

Callandor: 2004-04-15

**I believe that since the world is "run" by the Wheel, and the Ages repeat, then it is also possible that the all the Ages exist together at the same time, on a different plane (such as T'A'R').**

No, the Ages run one at a time, in sequence. There are other worlds that you could say exist on other "planes", but they are still part of the Third Age, not any other. The Age of Legends, the Second Age, is 3000+ years gone, and won't be back for 6 more turnings.

moonstar404: 2004-04-16

You are all assuming that channellers who die are reborn as channellers. The Dragon asways is reborn as the Dragon, time and time again, World without end. But is a farmer doomed to be reborn as a farmer ad infinitum? Are the nobility destined to stay noble forever (this would establish divine right if you think about it...) Rand, Mat, and Perrin are the players that are reborn heroes. So far, Rand and MAt have past-life memory (from different sources obviously.) Birgitte claims that heroes remember for a short time what previous lives were like, but they forget.

Now, why would only heroes remember? Because they are the only ones that need to. If you were a noble in one life, and a farmer in the next, most of your prior knowledge/memories would be pretty useless. Knowing how to properly wear a corset doesn't help you make potato soup.

So, if only heores can remember, how do they access those memories? For the majority, the memories probably just trickle through the subconscious, the conscious mind thinking that they are having brilliant bursts of insight. For a select few (e.g. Rand & Mat) another, more direct path to the memories may be made available. For Mat, he was granted a wish. And Rand... I think I'll go for the taint breaking down his barriers.

charliec: 2004-04-17

Birgitte is an abnormal case though, she only remembers because she wasn't reborn but transferred whole from TAR to the real world.

Callandor: 2004-04-17

**Are the nobility destined to stay noble forever ...Birgitte claims that heroes remember for a short time what previous lives were like, but they forget.**

I doubt nobles are reborn as nobles; there weren't any nobles in the AoL, so how where the Third Age nobles nobles, if there weren't any nobles in the AoL?

Also, could you quote where Birgitte says this. I know she says that she can remember her past lives, but they are fading, but she is a really special case; she was not reborn at all, she was force out into the Pattern by Moggy.

hassman: 2004-04-18

Two separate explanation/theories here:

Rand and LTT and the mystery third face (MTF) are harmonics. Rand had LTT in his head, LTT had the mystery third face in his head (hence recognition and dismay), and the third face had someone, and so on until Rand shows up as a voice in someone elses head. I assume that RJ (a physics major, which factors in here) has this as a decaying harmonic, so Rand has LTT as a primary image, and the MTF as a secondary. Think about rainbows, everyone has see a single, rarely a double and once in a lifetime, parts of the triple. The mechanisms of thought transfer remain vague to me.

In relation to Logain, Artur Hawkwing et al. I think that the pattern has a Dragon thread (powerful ta'averen, channeler, and declared Dragon) in its sewing basket. Dragons occur as a beat frequency in the pattern, so the pattern puts out the three variables on alternate frequencies (like a solar and lunar calender, which correspond every 57 solar years or thereabouts) Assuming this theory, the last cycle was Artur and the FD of the time, which had all three parts but in two people. Periodically, FDs pop up, some of which channel. The pattern snuffs them out because they don' t have all three aspects. The length of time they exist is based on closeness of fit. Taim and Logain were close, so they were protected from madness by the pattern until Rand declared. Then they were thrown down, and became unprotected. The problem with this theory is that it isn't predictive, so I haven't formalized it.

Mirtam Caulthon: 2004-04-20

Nice theory Bladesmaster, I just don't see how LTT can be speaking to Rand during the entire was when he remembers killing his wife which happened immediatelly before he killed himself.

Zarine: 2004-04-26

I agree to some extent with Mirtam. Your theory that he is speaking to LTT while LTT is living another life is abib far'fetched. But I do think that since somehow LTT created the dragonmouth when he killed himself, a part of him was trepped in there, and it is in fact this part that Rand is communicating with. LTT remarks that he should be dead, but isn't, and in a second thought adds that he doesn't want to be dead. This is enough evidence for. To sum it up, I think Rand talks to a seperate LTT, a part of him that is in the present, trapped in the dragonmouth.

Brendan Reborn: 2004-04-28

**To sum it up, I think Rand talks to a seperate LTT, a part of him that is in the present, trapped in the dragonmouth. **

If he is trapped inside dragonmount, then we have no need for a dragon to be reborn, because he is already in the world.

Callandor: 2004-04-28

**To sum it up, I think Rand talks to a seperate LTT, a part of him that is in the present, trapped in the dragonmouth.**

Lews Therin Telamon died at the end of the AoL/the beginning of the Third Age. He is not alive in any way.

Rand al'Thor is Lews Therin Telamon's soul reborn as the Dragon for this age. Rand suffers from having two personalities within his head. One his own, Rand al'Thor; the other Lews Therin Telamon, most likely due to:

1. Rand is the next reincarnation of the same soul.

2. Rand's own personality damage (Multiple Personality Syndrom)

3. Channeling vast, vast, amounts of tainted saidin.

4. Entering Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh.

The first factor allows the other three to work; Rand being the same soul reborn, and the taint along with entering Tel'aran'rhiod, most likely deteriorated the wall or gap or whatever you want to call it, between past and present lives (we know this exists because Birgitte knows that when she is put into the flesh, she does not know who she "really" truly is, until back in Tel'aran'rhoid).

With this breakdown, memories from Lews Therin's life have crossed over into Rand's own memories, coaleced with the taint and his personality disorder, and resulted in the personality of Lews Therin Telamon inside Rand al'Thor's mind.

Nevyn: 2004-05-02

It is an interesting idea, I don't know if I agree with it however. There are many difficulties not the least of which is the idea of time travel is notoriously difficult to deal with. I tend to think that Rand has these memories because he needs them- ie. without them he would already be a very ,very, very dead individual. This being the case it seems to me that the Aes Sedai of the AoL would have known the plight to be of the Dragon Reborn, they knew he would be born into an age where the people who could teach him would be few and far between, and most of whom would be half crazed, if not totally insane. So they would need to help him. How? There is one specific event which was fortold, the item of which was then under their control-callandor. Only the Dragon would have access to it- as a result of the actions of these very same Aes Sedai, so they decided to do something to callandor to help the dragon in this regard. As to what they did, I have no idea, it would be pure speculation on my part, but since I'm a big fan of speculation I shall. We know that with the One Power, channelers can create impressions of events, at the very least with ter'angreal so it is not impossible that they could have impressed some, if not all of the events of Lews Therin's life either into the weave surrounding callandor or into the sword itself.

It could even be that they impressed the mind of Lews Therin into sword or weave as well, although I'm uncertain as to whether that would be possible given the timeline ie. was there a window of time after the Strike at Shayol Ghul and Lews Therin's madness; this could actually fit as well, if the Aes Sedai had access to him before he went totally crazy they could have done the imprinting then, if it couldn't be done before, or was not thought of before he was on his way to crazy land. It also has a kind of Arthurian poetry to it; he pulls the sword out and he becomes the Dragon, not as a symbolic gesture, but an actual rebirth.

Brendan Reborn: 2004-05-05

Good Job Nevyn, that makes ALOT of sense to me. I'm wanting to agree with you, but theres just so much. Like: Cadsuane knowing male channelers hear voices.

but that also poses the question of how does channeling relate to past memories and voices. Is it really voices in their head, or is it a past life?

Gandalf: 2004-05-05

Tamyrlin, Callandor, how do you put up with this? Rand is the "Dragon" reborn. LTT is the "Dragon" reborn. The next guy is the "Dragon" reborn and the next and the next...Rand is NOT LTT and LTT is NOT Rand. The taint breaks down the barrier between this rebirth and the last and the next rebirth (maybe all of them) because of Min's viewing of three faces. People, there is one soul and that soul is the "Dragon's". It is not LTT's voice that Rand hears, it is his own voice (mind/head/brain) coping with memories of past lives.

Anubis: 2004-05-11

heres the situation. normally theres a "dragon". the LTT Rand soul. the hero. he is born when he is needed as a hero. used normally by the wheel. nothing special. HOWEVER, when it comes time to fight the dark one. he(the soul i mean) is born as the DRAGON. dragon specific. he wasnt before. normally the dragon shows up. does his thing. and everything is hankey dorey. the world is saved the dragon dies the people rejoice... legend fades to myth blah blah the dragon is forgotten. Another crisis arises, the dark one is on the verge of being freed. the dragon (hero, soul) is born as the dragon. no past life memories. he is his own person. he saves the day horray yay.

this time is different. the dragon died but everyone still remembers him when the dark one comes again. the pattern needs the dragon.(also the complete destruction of a male channeling population may have played a role) therefore lews theren is reborn. Specificly lews theren. not just the dragon soul. in accordance with the prophesy. therefore rand is BOTH lews theren and rand al thor.

now how does this happen one might ask....

well callandor gave several reasons. these were more then likely taken into account by the pattern in its hero weaving. however, the fact remains that those memories came from somewhere. no ammount of rand taint inspired delusion can give him an accurate set of another mans memories. it has been demonstrated that rand does actually have LTTs knowledge.

more you say?

also there is no evidence to state that LTT was anyone specific rebrn. quite the opposite. the forsaken had never heard of a specific person being reborn before. Therefore while LTT was the soul of the dragon born again in the new age, he was not the dragon reborn. subtle but profound difference. he did not have another mans memories floating around in his head, no ammount of taint could make him remember life as the previous dragon.

Nevyn: 2004-05-11

I let my sense of poetry get away from me in the phrasing. I agree that there is only one soul, that of the Dragon, I only state that I believe that the memories that he has access to are the result of some action by the Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends(shortly after the breaking began,or just before it got extremely bad). There is ample evidence that they prepared the way for the dragon; putting callandor in the stone, preparing the eye of the world, leaving the dragon banner and the horn of valere, the crux of all of this is that they knew he(Rand, the Dragon Reborn) would have a great deal of difficulties ahead of him, and would want to help. Because of the prophecies, they knew he would pull callandor from the stone, they also knew it because they put the weave around it. I merely propose that they used the opportunity to communicate, for lack of a better word with Rand, give him the skills he would need, through his previous incarnations experiences.

As for the idea of the taint being the cause of hearing past lives, or people from a past life, I can only respond by breaking it into pieces; knowledge-Cadsuane states or implies knowledge of voices in male channelers minds. Hearing voices is a common symptom of schizophrenia,ie. they lose their minds, the idea that male channelers would lose their minds in simmilar ways is a good idea considering the source of their illness is the same in each case-the taint. So her statement(s) do not to me indicate past lives.

Secondly you run into the problem of every male channeler(or a significant percentage) having to be someone reborn in order for the theory to hold.

The third possibility is that the taint causes schizophrenia-like symptoms in the un-reborn as it were and for those like Rand it allows them some kind of access to previous memories and skills. This sounds reasonable, but no more so than my theory, that the memories Rand posesses are the result of a weave/callandor? because the explanation of a seeming duality is the same-the taint. The Aes Sedai of the AoL gave him the memories, the taint gave him schizoid tendencies and the two combined give him insane LTT on the brain. This possibility also works in the sense that the tower has had too much ease in controlling male channelers, if you allow for the possibility of reborn channelers other than Rand, they too would gain access to their previous memories under that theory, if that were the case the tower would have extreme difficulty controlling such individuals, if it could do so at all, given the relatively primitive knowledge of the OP the tower has access to in the current age wrt the AoL, or pretty much any earlier age, prior to recent events.

As an example, if the channeler regained knowledge of the weaves allowing for alteration of appearance, the tower would probably be unable to catch that individual,what about balefire? Knowledge of ter'angreal? Knowledge of Travelling? A male channeler with the skills of the AoL going crazy; very hard to catch, sounds like Rand.

Nevyn: 2004-05-11

I didn't mention this earlier, but it is an interesting idea. Lews Therin could have done the imprinting himself, after the strike and the counterstroke. He would have felt responsible for the consequences of the Strike, he would consider himself ultimately responsible for the consequences. He has been described by the forsaken as insufferably arrogant, and elsewhere as the greatest individual of his age, either characterization indicates an individual who would abhor mistakes on his own part, and seek to rectify them at all costs.

Callandor: 2004-05-12

**I let my sense of poetry get away from me in the phrasing. I agree that there is only one soul, that of the Dragon, I only state that I believe that the memories that he has access to are the result of some action by the Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends(shortly after the breaking began,or just before it got extremely bad). ...I merely propose that they used the opportunity to communicate, for lack of a better word with Rand, give him the skills he would need, through his previous incarnations experiences.**

So they got personal memories, from an already dead man? Did they go to the Finn, ask for them, and then implant them into Callandor?

Please.

**So her statement(s) do not to me indicate past lives.**

Ah, of course. So Cadusane is the ultimate source of knowledge, even going against Prophacies? And the word of Robert Jordan?

**Audience: The question is, with Rand and LTT, do they have 1 soul or 2 souls in the body?

Robert Jordan: They have 1 soul with 2 personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I came hobbled together.**

Rand is the rebirth of the same soul that was once LTT, we call him LTT for simplicity.

**Secondly you run into the problem of every male channeler(or a significant percentage) having to be someone reborn in order for the theory to hold.**

Umm... no. Rand is quite unique. A single soul, reborn specifically, according to prophacy. Quite unique.

Also, all the people of the world are someone reborn again and again; the Pattern doesn't make more souls.

** didn't mention this earlier, but it is an interesting idea. Lews Therin could have done the imprinting himself, after the strike and the counterstroke. He would have felt responsible for the consequences of the Strike, he would consider himself ultimately responsible for the consequences.**

LTT was insane at that point, until Ishamael Healed him temporarily, until his death at Dragonmount. No time, nor reason.

Nevyn: 2004-05-14

I don't know how to say this more clearly, I don't believe there are two souls in Rand's body.Period. You even quoted me saying words to that effect. My theory is an attempt to explain the reason why Rand is hearing a voice in his head which he has termed LTT. My theory is that the apparent presence(from Rand's point of view) is the result of two things; the taint's effect on his mind/memories that came to him as a result of AS action in AoL or shortly thereafter. In brief, the memories are present in his mind, and his taint ravaged mind has assembled them into a personality in his mind that he calls LTT. Most of the theories I have read concur that LTT isn't really there, simply memories, I am only contending a different source which provided them. My reasoning devoid of specifics hinges on the need perceived by AS of AoL. They were doing a great many things in order to help the Dragon in the future, things which required sacrifices and things which they would never be able to see the result of.(the eye of the world/callandor). As to the mechanism I never considered the possibilities to a great extent, you proposed one, Callandor, that you rejected immidiately, I don't know why,it seems doable to me.

As for Cadsuane, that was a response to a previous reply. Someone said that the fact that she knew of other channelers detracted from my theory and I was simply explaining that to my reasoning it didn't,(because she has no knowledge of Lews Therin, merely indicating she knew that other male channelers heard voices) in fact I wholeheartedly agree that she can't know very much about this.

As for the statement that you run into the problem of all male channelers having to be reborn in order to explain it; this was a statement relating to the theory that the taint alone is responsible for the voice in Rand's head. I was saying that since Cadsuane predicts that Rand hears voices, she has spoken with other male channelers who had also heard voices. So if, as has been proposed, the taint breaks down the barriers between the personalities of male channelers, then the voices are those of the previous incarnations, and because I see a great deal of difficulty with control in such a case, ie. male channelers with knowledge of the Power exceeding that of the AS I didn't think that it was a good explanation.

As you yourself say, Rand is unique, the memories that he has must therefore have some other source. If you want to state that the voice in Rand's head is unique in that it is a voice that has substance to it, ie useful information. I agree. If you want to say there is one soul. I agree. If you want to say the taint alone is responsible for the memories. I do not. If it were the origins of Rand's memories would not be unique, and anyone of comparable power should be able to do everything that he has done. Which doesn't make sense to me.

Nevyn: 2004-05-14

I forgot to reply to the last part. The time line around the strike is blurry to me. From what I recall though the prologue of the EotW occurred at least a couple of weeks after the Strike at Shayol Ghul, Lews had a great many relations to kill, and even for the Lord of the Morning tracking down and stomping on anyone who has your blood has to take some time. The Hundred Companions and LTT went mad right away I believe(?) but even so there are degrees to madness. Perhaps moments of lucidity interspersed between rages. This of course is speculation, but so is an assertion that he didn't, as there is no litterature relating to the in-between time of the Strike and Ish "healing" LTT.(that I'm aware of anyway)

btw. is that statement you(Callandor) made about everyone being someone reborn substantiated, I don't remember anything like that, and I see some problems with it; why have a horn of valere at all, where are their souls located? It puts a cap on the number of people who can exist at a given time meaning that any "futuristic" time line would be limited to colonizing a few worlds for inexplicable reasons, or even now,in WoT are there people asside from grey men without souls?. Are other species under the same constaints? What about balefire? The wheel of time would therefore be only losing souls (to balefire) and never producing them, so, given a cyclic timeline, there would eventually be noone(no one? neither seems right) left.

Anubis: 2004-05-15

hears the deal. insane channelers hear imaginary voices. rand hears a real voice. real in the sense that it has actual factual memories and stuff. this is because rand is lews theren reborn. i dont know why or how this happend. but i believe that it was needed. rand simply needed LTTs memories in order to stand a chance of winning the last battle. you can debate why rand hears LTT as a second voice. myself i favor a seperate set of memories given personality because of taint or stress induced insanity. probably a combination of taint and stress. but thats just me. you can ask RJ but even money says he replies RAFO.

Callandor: 2004-05-16

**My theory is an attempt to explain the reason why Rand is hearing a voice in his head which he has termed LTT. My theory is that the apparent presence(from Rand's point of view) is the result of two things; the taint's effect on his mind/memories that came to him as a result of AS action in AoL or shortly thereafter.**

Your theory is quite similar to the most accpeted one, but with the source being the AoL Aes Sedai, as you have pointed out. Which, in my mind, is quite impossible.

**My reasoning devoid of specifics hinges on the need perceived by AS of AoL. They were doing a great many things in order to help the Dragon in the future, things which required sacrifices and things which they would never be able to see the result of.(the eye of the world/callandor).**

It shouldn't. We have two sources of a physical implantation of memories into a person: Mat Cauthon, via a wish to the Eelfinn; and Padan Fain, via a attempted soul take over and merging with a free roving soul.

As RJ has said, Rand has one soul, not two, so that strikes out the possible Padan Fain way. Rand has never been to the Eelfinn, never made the wishes, so how would he get memories that way?

More importantly, where would the AoL Aes Sedai get the memories, to somehow transcribe onto Callandor, from an already dead man, without somehow going through the Finn or having his soul (ha!), in order to put them into the sa'angreal. This makes no sense at all.

**I forgot to reply to the last part. The time line around the strike is blurry to me. From what I recall though the prologue of the EotW occurred at least a couple of weeks after the Strike at Shayol Ghul, Lews had a great many relations to kill, and even for the Lord of the Morning tracking down and stomping on anyone who has your blood has to take some time.**

All depends really, but we do know LTT used the same lightning seek and destroy weave that Rand used in the Stone of Tear, on the people. So it may have taken time, may have not. I myself am not too sure if there is mention of any specific time change between the two events.

**The Hundred Companions and LTT went mad right away I believe(?) but even so there are degrees to madness. Perhaps moments of lucidity interspersed between rages. This of course is speculation, but so is an assertion that he didn't, as there is no litterature relating to the in-between time of the Strike and Ish "healing" LTT.(that I'm aware of anyway)**

There is a way that LTT did not go insane? Or didn't do something else?

And yes, LTT and all the surviving Companions went insane the moment the Dark One tainted saidin.

**btw. is that statement you(Callandor) made about everyone being someone reborn substantiated, I don't remember anything like that, and I see some problems with it; why have a horn of valere at all, where are their souls located?**

There is a difference of the afterlife from where the regular people reside, and where the Heroes reside:

**Beth Silver from Austin, TX: Aside from the Heroes of the Horn waiting around in the World of Dreams, is there any kind of afterlife in WOT? Do the Heroes get a choice when they are linked to the Horn; can they retire, or take 'ordinary life' sabaticals?

RJ: In answer to the first question, yes, there is an ordinary afterlife. In answer to the second, no. You cannot decide NOT to be a hero linked to the Wheel.**

And we know their souls reside in TAR, as Birgitte has said.

**It puts a cap on the number of people who can exist at a given time meaning that any "futuristic" time line would be limited to colonizing a few worlds for inexplicable reasons, or even now,in WoT are there people asside from grey men without souls?**

Yes, it does put a cap on it, but you are thinking of Third Age populations. The number of possible souls, is probably extremely large (100 billion or whatever large number you want to give it).

Every person has a soul, they either give it away (in the case of a Grey Man), they get it taken, or they have it. Only the Dark One can make Grey Men, but we do have an example of a special case of a person without a soul: Trayal the Ogier, from TGH.

**Are other species under the same constaints? What about balefire? The wheel of time would therefore be only losing souls (to balefire) and never producing them, so, given a cyclic timeline, there would eventually be noone(no one? neither seems right) left.**

Thus Spake the Creator:

**If someone is Balefired, the Dark One can't reincarnate them. But they CAN be spun back out into the wheel as normal. Balefire is NOT the eternal death of the soul.**

I've always taken it to be that the soul is immortal; anytime that a person dies, it goes back to the soul pool to await rebirth. Since balefire is still a death, the soul returns to the soul pool to await rebirth.

And about soul rebirth:

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven

CHAPTER: 51 - News Comes to Cairhien

Egwene watched her stride away before pressing her hands to her stomach. She did not think she would eat tonight or in the morning. Rahvin. And maybe Lanfear, or one of the others. Nynaeve had faced Moghedien and won. But Nynaeve was stronger than she or Aviendha, when she could channel at all. There might not be another. Rand said the Forsaken did not trust one another. She could almost wish he was wrong, or at least that he was not so certain. It was frightening when she thought she saw another man looking through his eyes, heard another man's words come out of his mouth. *It should not be so; everyone was reborn as the Wheel turned.* But everyone was not the Dragon Reborn. Moiraine would not talk of it. What would Rand do if Lanfear was there? Lanfear had loved Lews Therin Telamon, but what had the Dragon felt for her? How much of Rand was still Rand?**

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven

CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Sparks Fall

"How do you know?" Graendal asked, smiling as if it were all a joke. *"It may well be that, as many believe, all are born and reborn as the Wheel turns, but nothing like this has ever happened that I have read.* A specific man reborn according to prophecy. Who knows what he is?"**

**TITLE: Crown of Swords

CHAPTER: 7 - Pitfalls and Tripwires

Not his, that voice shouting inside his skull. Not Rand al'Thor. Lews Therin Telamon, more than three thousand years dead. And talking in Rand al'Thor's head. The Power often drew him out of his hiding place in the shadows of Rand's mind. Sometimes Rand wondered how that could be. *He was Lews Therin reborn, the Dragon Reborn, no denying that, but everybody was someone reborn, a hundred someones, a thousand, more. That was how the Pattern worked; everyone died and was reborn, again and again as the Wheel turned, forever without end.* But nobody else talked with who they used to be. Nobody else had voices in their heads. Except madmen.**

**BWB: page 14

CHAPTER 1: The Wheel and the Pattern

No one knows the length of time it takes for a full turning of the Wheel, nor is there a set time for each Age. There is only the certainty that all will come around again, though surely long past the span encompassed by human memory, or even legend. Yet that knowledge provides the basis for the philosophy and history of the known world. No ending, even death, is necessarily final within the turning of the Wheel. *Reincarnation is a part of the way of the world.* Prophecies are believed and heeded, since they tell as much of what was as of what will be. The only questions are when and in what manner the prophecies will unfold.**

: 2004-05-16

I agree that Rand is a unique case of a soul being reborn. There is a prophecy about it after all. The other heroes don't have prophecies. But the other heroes do the same things every time they're reborn. Birgitte is always an archer and can never use a sword and so on.

Now, since the AoL AS created tEotW and put tHoV, the seal, and the banner there for the Dragon Reborn to find, it could be that the AoL AS stored their knowledge and skills in tEotW for the Dragon Reborn. That could be why they sacrificed themselves in the act of creating it. They would have had knowledge of LTT's life and they would have had the ability to Travel among almost everything else. One of them might have grown up with LTT and knew he climbed in apple trees when he was a child (whatever that memory is).

I don't think that LTT created a weave to give Rand his memories in the future. He was good, but not that good. The Wheel could have trapped him in Dragonmount until his rebirth instead of sending him to TAR and binding him to tHoV, but this is also a little much to believe.

If it's not the taint (which I don't believe anymore thanks to you), I believe the AoL AS did it using tEotW.

Rand first starts using the OP to do extraordinary things after he taps tEotW.

Anubis: 2004-05-17

nevyn. there will be no colinization of other worlds. no limitless populations. it is a wheel. time repeats. and we know where the heroes souls go. ill give you a hint... where did we meet bridgette? where did we see gaidal cain? id say it straight out but i cant spell it.

Nevyn: 2004-05-18

In order to believe that the AS of the AoL are responsible for the memories, three things are necessary; (1) knowledge; the AS of the AoL have to be aware that there will be a problem. (2) motivation; they have to want to help. (3)Ability; they have to be able to help. I have dealt with the first two previously(except I didn't mention that there was at least one more reason for them to imprint LTT's memories specifically-he had personally dealt with the forsaken on numerous occasions and defeated them frequently;he knew them). So the most objections have come from the third point-ability.

(3)Ability- First off, I'm not attatched to any particular delivery method, there are a couple of possibilities;I mentioned Callandor and the weave surrounding it. There is also the eye of the world as someone mentioned. There is even the horn and the banner. It could be something else entirely.

The world of RJ is not time inviolate; first there are prophecies, min's visions etc. no need to belabour the point-future sight is possible. Nor is the past inviolate- balefire is the obbvious example(hardly applicable to the current issue but an example nonetheless of the power affecting previous events) a more pertinent example is the ter'angreal in rhuidean the Aiel use to confirm clan chiefs(this example is also a refutation of a point callandor made regarding the methods that could be used; the eelfinn/soul methods aren't the only ways we've seen used). I considered this as another possible method after all it recognized him as different from others who had used it, but there are a hundred possible reasons for that, besides I believe LTT "speaks" before he goes through. Regardless, this ter'angreal is another example of a method.

There is also the possibility of the eelfinn. Callandor is right in saying that Rand has never made the wishes but an AS of the AoL might have- words to the effect of "I wish for the memories of LTT to be imprinted on (artifact name/my mind). If on his/her mind, then put into weave around callandor or other method. It is my understanding that the memories Mat has are from people who passed through the doorway. It is not unresonable to propose that LTT went through at some point; relations between AS and Finn being much more common during the AoL. Finally there is the unknown, the power can do almost anything, even those from the AoL didn't know all of its uses(healing severing) The above examples certainly prove that is in the scope of the abilities of the AoL.

Nevyn: 2004-05-18

As for LTT doing this himself. I now tend to agree with callandor. He probably didn't do it himself; it was an idea based on the character of LTT; ie. I think he would have if he had known about the problem while sane. I wasn't aware he had used the seek and destroy weave(where from?) I therefore thought he would have been alive for much longer after the Strike, and therefore would have had the time to have periods of sanity and awareness in order to realize what was going to happen and try to fix what he had messed up.

By the way, if the structure of this theory is commonly believed what is the alternate source for his memories? That I haven't seen.

snakes-n-foxes: 2004-05-18

Has anyone come up with a theory on what kind of healing Ishmael performed on LTT...and what sort of effect it had on LTT ?

For example...as unlikely as it seems...is it possible that it did something to his soul...

...after all, we know that souls can be stolen...like in the making of Myrdraals swords...so is it possible to do other things to a persons soul.

For example...as unlikely as it seems, is it possible for whatever Ishamael did, to have prevented LTT's soul from returning to the wheel (okay okay, I don't really believe it...but trying to look at other angles of this argument)

Callandor: 2004-05-18

**There is also the possibility of the eelfinn. Callandor is right in saying that Rand has never made the wishes but an AS of the AoL might have- words to the effect of "I wish for the memories of LTT to be imprinted on (artifact name/my mind). ...The above examples certainly prove that is in the scope of the abilities of the AoL.**

Is it possible LTT is left handed? Is it possible LTT got laid on his first date? Is it possible LTT learned to channel instead of having the spark? Is it possible LTT began to channel at the age of 17?

All of them are possible. Do we have any support for any of them? None.

**By the way, if the structure of this theory is commonly believed what is the alternate source for his memories? That I haven't seen.**

If you haven't seen it, I am quite surprised, and recomend you go to google, and search for "WOT FAQ". They give a great variaty of topics, somewhat resolved, resolved, and still in debate.

As for what really is the source, it all goes to soul rebirth. All the Heroes have no memory of who they originally are, when they are reborn (see Birgitte for this). They all beleive they are normal.

Yet, when they are beack in Tel'aran'rhiod, they remember their entire life being reborn, as well as a multitude of past lives.

So, how is this true? There must be something blocking the memories of past lives from entering the present memories. Think of it as placing a cap on a sealed jar; outside is the past lives, inside the present.

The problem with LTT, comes about with the taint on saidin. We know that any male who channels, previous to saidin being cleansed of course, would eventually go mad, their bodies would deteriorate, and they waste away in a rotting similarity.

Now the postulate: if a channeler actively channels, and the taint breaks down their bodies, does it break down anything else? The idea is that the taint breaks down the barrier between the past and present lives, allowing previous memories to flow between the two.

Going off of the jar, if you were to drop some dribblets of acid on the cap, holes would appear, and the past memories (previously outside the jar) would seep through the holes into the jar (the present memories). The more you channel, the more taint you take (the more dribblets of acid on the cap), the more and more the memories mesh together.

With Rand, he has taken these memories, cobbled with the gradual insanity also caused by the taint, and a possible schizophrenia/multiple personality disorder, and named it Lews Therin Telamon.

This is supported in the books in two major ways.

1. The barrier:

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 3 - A Woman's Eyes

He hesitated, heron-branded palm stroking his long sword hilt. He had no idea what a gholam was. *Lews Therin had not stirred, but he knew that was the source of the name. Bits and pieces sometimes drifted across whatever thin barrier lay between him and that voice, and became part of Rand's memories, usually without anything to explain them. It happened more often, lately.* The fragments were not something he could fight, like the voice. The hesitation lasted only a moment.**

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 21 - To Shadar Logoth

Duty is heavier than a mountain, death lighter than a feather. *Lews Therin had to have that from him—memories passed both ways across that barrier, it seemed—but it cut to the heart.***

2. The amount of saidin Rand has channeled compared to any other channeler.

Striking Taim (he could very well be a new Dreadlord with taint protection), Rand is hands down the single man who has channeled the most of the taint into himself then any other in recent times, if not the Age (second most likely). Rand has been channeling the taint since mid TEOTW, started using it more and more in TGH and TDR, used Callandor in TDR, TSR, and TPOD, used the CK in TSR and WH (singularly, this event catapults him above any other canidate), and an angreal from TSR till LoC, ad well as being the most powerful male channeler in the world at this time (Ishamael matches him), from easily TFOH on.

Adding all of that up, with every incident bringing more and more of the taint into him, it is easy to see why over time, LTT has become more and more powerful in Rand's mind, more and more of a "friend" to him, and more and more "sane".

At first, "LTT" was counted up to channeling instinct. All that was happening was Rand was pulling heroic weaves out of nowhere (balefire, and the seeker weave). Then LTT gives memories over the barrier (which is soon after Rand first uses Callandor, channeling lots and lots of taint into him), by telling only information LTT would know about Lanfear. He then gets a "voice" when Rand uses the seeker weave (he is undoubtedly the "now" person).

Then, in TFOH, he finally appears as a voice; notice that LTT appears in more and more powerful forms, as Rand channels more and more amounts of saidin through larger abilities; this time is after the first use of the CK with the battle with Asmodean.

After that time, it is just LTT giving more and more memories, thoughts, emotions, and knowledge over the barrier.

The next event, is after Rand cleanses the taint. In CoT, we have this:

** TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight

CHAPTER: 24 - A Strengthening Storm

I don't want to kill her. Rand thought at the dead man. I can't afford for her to die. Lews Therin knew that as well as he, but the man grumbled under his breath anyway. Since Shadar Logoth, he seemed a touch less mad, sometimes. Or maybe Rand was a touch more. After all, he took talking to a dead man in his head as a matter of every day, and that was hardly sane.**

The single main problem with a one time surge of memories given by the AoL Aes Sedai, is that LTT has grown in power of mind over time; that would not happen if everything were given at once.

Anubis: 2004-05-20

he just healed the insanity. According to ishy any aes sedai could have done the same. It was only a temporary fix though, not a real healing. It was just enough to make him sane enough to go insane from the realization of what he had done.

Nevyn: 2004-05-20

Anubis-I wasn't referring to the heroes of the horn with the question of souls, I was wondering where the typical soul would go, one not bound to the wheel, the question was posed in response to callandor's statement about the wheel of time not creating new souls, simply recycling all of them.(I have another question regarding that btw. What about souls given over to the DO, can the wheel spin them out again? That doesn't seem right, and so this would again give an outlet of souls, so every loop through would result in fewer souls available for the wheel to spin. Also with regard to balefire, the description of the effect is misleading then, if balefire cannot destroy souls; as the wording with regard to the pattern goes something like; threads burnt from the pattern; seems kind of final) Anyway, yeah, that was about your generic souls not heroes, granted they could also be where the others are Birgitte's locale(Tel Aran Rhiod? apostrophe somewhere probably?) in fact I believe that was callandor's response.

As for colonization, I think it's possible, the wheel of time is indeed cyclical, but there is no given time limits; ie, the phrases and even legend is long forgotten by the time the age... something like that, but that's poetic phrasing it could meen-in the next big bang sequence. In essence each turn of the wheel being the birth and death of a universe. In this case it wouldn't be problematic for a space-faring nation to colonize planets etc. because the slate will be wiped clean in a big crunch or other end of universe phenomena.

Callandor: 2004-05-20

**Has anyone come up with a theory on what kind of healing Ishmael performed on LTT...and what sort of effect it had on LTT ?**

Thus Spake the Creator:

**New dreadlords? Via TP? What are limits of TP? When did we see it used before?

Access to the TP is a matter of wanting it and the dark one letting you. NOT black cords. In Prologue to EotW we saw TP to heal insanity. The OP can not be used to heal insanity. TP used at SG will fry you instantly.**

Ishamael temporarily Healed him of his insanity with the True Power.

If he would've done something to his soul, such as trying to steal it, it would've been more akin to what Rand was feeling in TDR when he took Callandor.

And the Dragon did not get reborn into the Pattern until now, because the need for the Dragon was not great enough until now.

Nevyn: 2004-05-21

I was aware of the past lives source of memories, I assumed you meant additional theories other than mine, and the taint theory(with the soul as source). Your explanation of it is very fine and well done; the problems however, remain; it does not explain the uniqueness of "LTT". I understand the argument that since Rand has channeled more, it explains why the corrosion of the "barrier" has progressed so much in his case; thus allowing him greater and greater access to LTT-his previous incarnation. The problem with this is that his symptoms have been observed many times before-the multiple personalities, so an alternate explanation for everyone else is still required.ie. under this theory if you ask the question:
If Rand had channeled only relatively small amounts(with respect to the actual amounts he has channeled) of the OP, would he still have another personality in his mind? According to that theory,no, unless you propose that there are two levels if you will; channel this much and you get psychological difficulties; channel much much more and you get barriers between incarnations breaking down. This last would be fine except that Rand has had "instinctual" access to LTT's memories before he had channeled very much at all.

The argument that since Rand's access to LTT's memories has gradually gotten better and better as a refutation of the idea that he got all the memories, all at once is a good one. If one forgets that if it is the soul that is the source of the memories, then he got those memories all at once as well. He merely got gradual access. Postulate a similar barrier placed between AS placed memories and Rands mind/personality, designed to wear over time, or through use of the power,etc, and it is fine.

As I have previously stated there are multiple possibilities with regards to methods with which "memory transfers" seem to be done; it's even possible that the soul IS the source of the memories under this theory; The AS of the AoL create a weave/method/ter'angreal designed to damage the "barrier" between a given life and their previous incarnation. Gradually this damage increases and the flow of information can increase.

It simply makes more sense to have the source of the abilities Rand posesses to be a causal one, not serendipity.

Anubis: 2004-05-21

callandor. ishmael (i do believe, feel free to correct me if im wrong.) says that one of Lews Therens sisters would have only been able to grant him a few lucid moments.

if this is the case, and it is the case that the One Power can not heal insanity, then it seems to be the case that Ishmaels healing of LTT was of the perminant variety.

Callandor: 2004-05-21

**Your explanation of it is very fine and well done; the problems however, remain; it does not explain the uniqueness of "LTT".**

Define the uniqueness of LTT. Rand alread has that fulfilled: he IS LTT reborn, that is unique enough. The memories from the past life, passing into the present, getting meshed with the taint, all it does is create a totally unprecidented situation. I cannot think of a better analogy for both, the Dragon Reborn, and LTT as a source in Rand's mind.

**If Rand had channeled only relatively small amounts(with respect to the actual amounts he has channeled) of the OP, would he still have another personality in his mind?**

That is a personal choice. We have no data (as far as I know) about any possible difference which would've resulted in the same situation. Only one I can think of that would come close, is in TGH, when Rand is in the Portal Stone, and he sees all the different lives he could've had, and the feeling of "this is not right" could be argued to be a need of the Pattern for large channeling amounts.

The question really boils down to: does Rand have multiple personality disorder, alone? This is really unanswerable. You cannot legitmately say that "yes, if Rand was a normal person, he would have him and LTT in his head" and you cannot say he wouldn't; you just can't prove one or the either.

Thing that cobbles it up even more, is Rand does not have true multiple personality disorder. He has a merger of MPD and schizophrenia; he knows there is another personality that can take him over (clear MPD), but he knows this voice isn't truely "there" (schizophrenic delusions). Most people of MPD, do not know they have an alternate personality right away; they get taken over (totally), and then they act differently, then the re-emerge, and realize things are now different. This has not happened to Rand.

So it is a merge. He knows there is something not real in his mind (schizophrenia), but he beleives this voice to be a personality which can take him over and never give him back control (MPD).

**This last would be fine except that Rand has had "instinctual" access to LTT's memories before he had channeled very much at all.**

Actually, he doesn't. His first true verifiable "instinctive" memory, is the seeking-lightning in TSR.

Balefire is not, because Nynaeve also discovered this.

All of Rand's pre-TSR channeling, is "instinctive" of that of a wilder (which, he is). These cannot be classified as influences of LTT. They are simple things, and Nynaeve as a wilder had a trick of doing the most complex Healing in the world. Wilder characteristics, not LTT.

**If one forgets that if it is the soul that is the source of the memories, then he got those memories all at once as well. He merely got gradual access. Postulate a similar barrier placed between AS placed memories and Rands mind/personality, designed to wear over time, or through use of the power,etc, and it is fine.**

Not quite sure what you are saying here. Are you agreeing or disagreeing? ;):P

**The AS of the AoL create a weave/method/ter'angreal designed to damage the "barrier" between a given life and their previous incarnation. Gradually this damage increases and the flow of information can increase.**

Again, this is pure based assumption. There is no example of any weave similar to punching a hole in the memory barrier between past and present lives. Did the Aes Sedai of the AoL know about it? We don't know, so we cannot say for sure yes or no. So we have to strike it from theroy in my opinion. The taint idea has facts behind it; the AoL Aes Sedai one, is pure supposition.

: 2004-05-24

What I meant by "it doesn't explain the uniqueness of "LTT" is that the taint/soul theory does not preclude other male channelers from gaining access to memories from their past lives. I have already explained why I don't think this has occurred. Which(to me) causes difficulties with the theory; you have to suppose that Rand is the only one to have channeled such large amounts,or in a specific way etc. Under the memories due to manipulation theory this possibility is taken away.

As for the theory being unproven- this is clearly the case, indisputably. However, the same is true for the taint/soul theory. The evidence for it is entirely circumstantial; Broken down;

Facts in favour of Taint/soul;

1)the gradual progression of Rand's access to the memories.

2)the taint is known to produce madness.

3)Rand Al'Thor is the reincarnation of Lews Therin Telamon and possesses actual memories from the life of Lews Therin Telamon.

4)There are references to a "barrier" that Rand is perceiving in his mind distinguishing between him and "LTT".

Note that all of these things add up to nothing really as alternate explanations can be given for each entry. This is in fact the nature of a theory - it is unproven.

AS of AoL theory;

1)There are several instances of the memories of one individual ending up in the head of another individual-mat,fain,aiel clan chiefs, and depending on your interpretations;aes sedai,wise ones,portal world visitors.etc.

2)Rand posesses actual memories of Lews Therin Telamon, and in all of the above cases the taint had nothing to do with the memory transfer; in fact there are no cases to indicate that such a thing is even possible.

3)The AS of the AoL did a great deal to help the Dragon; the eye, horn, banner, callandor. These are only the things we know about.

4)Rand's gradual access to the memories can be explained in several ways; he was given all of the memories at once but his mind was not immediately able to assimilate them-it took him time to decode the thoughts of another man or a barrier was placed between him and the memories in order to protect Rand from the memories until he was ready-until he accessed the source and started to channel progressively larger amounts of the source or The AS of the AoL gave him the memories by damaging the barrier described in the taint/soul theory and his access has only gradually grown(btw, to say that this last is supposition is true, but to say it is supposition in defence of a similar supposition...ie that the taint can do this kind of thing, doesn't make for a good argument).

5)The taint is known to produce madness.

6)Given the fact that there are ter'angreal that give access to the memories of others, creating a device/weave that would transfer memories from LTT to Rand would seem within the powers of the AS of the AoL.

All of this is not to say that I believe the taint/soul theory to be without merit- but it does involve speculation; specifically speculation with regard to what effect it has on Rand. ie. what is the taint, why would it allow Rand access to memories he wouldn't otherwise posess(possess?). In fact it is this kind of speculation that interests me about the taint/soul theory; Did the DO engineer the taint to have a specific effect on the Dragon Reborn in order to achieve a specific goal? But all in all I find AS manipulation more likely because it "fits" more to my mind-it has a cause and effect which the other lacks without speculation with regard to the dark one's motives. And there is little information there.

Callandor: 2004-05-24

**AS of AoL theory;

1)There are several instances of the memories of one individual ending up in the head of another individual-mat,fain,aiel clan chiefs, and depending on your interpretations;aes sedai,wise ones,portal world visitors.etc.**

The only one which Rand has had anything similar happen to him, is the Aiel Clan Chiefs. Unless you want to say, the Aes Sedai that made Rhuidean implanted the memories of LTT in there, so that he would get those along with the others, there is nothing.

**2)Rand posesses actual memories of Lews Therin Telamon, and in all of the above cases the taint had nothing to do with the memory transfer; in fact there are no cases to indicate that such a thing is even possible.**

As said above, all the possibilities have not happened to Rand, with the exception of the Clan Chief way, which we KNOW the memories which have gone.

**3)The AS of the AoL did a great deal to help the Dragon; the eye, horn, banner, callandor. These are only the things we know about.**

And do you know why they did? Foretellings and the Prophacies. Is there anything similar that relates to the Dragon gaining memories from an unknown source? The fact that we do not know of any other source which can support your idea, weakens it.

**(btw, to say that this last is supposition is true, but to say it is supposition in defence of a similar supposition...ie that the taint can do this kind of thing, doesn't make for a good argument).**

It's not supposition when there are quotes that confirm the basic ideas of it.

Rand knows there is a barrier between his memories. Does anybody else? No. Not only do you suppose that Aes Sedai in the AoL had access to a dead man's memories, and that they implanted it to enter into Rand's memories once he had Callandor, you also suppose that Rand personally is the case of why the memories are "dormant".

Now come on. What is undeniably classified as madness? Hearing voices, seeing things not there, knowing things no one else does (weakest really). Rand is undoubtedly mad from the taint; to what degree of severity is your own opinion, but he is mad. No doubt about that.

We know the taint causes madness. Unless people want to agrue that ;).

We have a quite strong correlation between an increasing amount of taint entering into Rand, and the more appearance of LTT, more memories, more influence, and the more "saneness" of LTT.

We know that any ordinary person has no recount of their previous lives. They have no memories of them whatsoever.

We know Heroes of the Horn DO remember their lives, after they are dead and back in TAR.

Their memories are stored, but somehow shielded from their knowledge. A barrier around them. The same barrier that Rand remarks upon memories going from between him and LTT.

**6)Given the fact that there are ter'angreal that give access to the memories of others, creating a device/weave that would transfer memories from LTT to Rand would seem within the powers of the AS of the AoL.**

A tiny problem with that: no known ter'angreal produces a talking voice.

Another problem: no ter'angreal can extract memories from a DEAD man. The Finn can; but no ter'angreal can.

**Did the DO engineer the taint to have a specific effect on the Dragon Reborn in order to achieve a specific goal?**

~sarcasm~ Yes, the Dark One knew of events 3500+ years in advance, planned for them, but cannot see events happening as of right now.

The Dark One took advantage of an opprotunity: the Sealing permitted him to taint saidin. He most likely did it with the TP, although that is unverified (but really, what other power does the Dark One have at his control?). What does the taint do? Madness to eventual death. What is the TP? An addictive power, which eventually kills you.

The Fisher: 2004-05-25

How do you explain the times that Lews Therin is silent? Now that the taint has been removed Lews Therin has become saner. Not since more taint has seeped into Rand. RJ has said that said that now that the taint is gone the males won't get better but they will stay as mad as they were. Not get madder. If Lews Therin's state alters (as when he gets "saner") then he is not connected to the taint. Period.

: 2004-05-25

The quotes that have been supplied to "prove" the taint/soul theory, only prove circumstantial evidence, evidence that can, as I said before, be used to support different ideas. As an example if I describe an object thusly; it is red, it is a fruit. You could infer that it is an apple and I could say it is a tomato. We are both speculating.

To make it obvious - show me a quote that says that the taint can break down the barriers between incarnations memories or even a quote that says reincarnations have the memories of their pryor lives while they are alive(not in TAR-bearing in mind that Birgitte is losing hers;without any SPECULATION about where they are going , because for all we know they are somehow stored in TAR until the person dies) but don't have access to them; these are both inferences; not facts.

As for the progression of Rand's access- you suggest it is the accumulation of the taint within Rand, but the amount of the OP he has channeled scales directly with the taint ergo it could easily be the OP which is the determining factor in his progression. Also with regard to my psychological argument- Rand's life has changed drastically in that same period he has taken on more and more responsibility and stress- such that his mind becomes more and more like the mind of LTT- LTT was a leader during a major conflict, this mirrors Rand's situation. They are even fighting the same enemy; their major concerns become similar over this period of time; fight the shadow, seal the bore, deal with the politics of many different people, manipulate events to achieve a victory. So as this responsibility drops on Rand's shoulders, he becomes more able to see the world from LTT's perspective and according to my theory; memories of LTT were implanted in his mind; thus as he thinks like LTT he can gain better access to those memories. As he could not, when he was a farmer's son whose concerns did not resemble those of LTT. The perception of a barrier in this version of As of AoL/taint theory is a psychological construct as is the "personality" associated with those memories- the more mad aspects of the personality and its animation are fueled by the madness associated with the taint. Any quote with regard to the "barrier" can be understood under the context of this version. Any mention of the taint and the madness it engenders can also be understood under this version. I can construct similar arguments for a set of weave protected memories implanted in his mind.

As for "sarcasm"-this comment is very shortsighted. The DO has existed through uncounted turnings of the WoT. Although his access to specifics is limited, he knows the broad outlines of every event that ever occurred. As one of the Forsaken has stated his knowledge regarding the world is suprising both for ignorance and knowledge. Furthermore, the crux of the taint/soul theory is this-the taint affects Rand in a way that it hasn't affected ANYONE else, you yourself have proposed reasons why he is unique in this way, and the Dark One created the taint and the Dragon is his supposed nemesis; you're suggesting that one of the only direct actions the Dark One has taken affects his nemessis in a unique way and this is a COINCIDENCE?

Anubis: 2004-05-25

I go a different direction with this. Back in the day.... in and around the Shadow Rising. There was no Lews Theren voice. Rand had dreams, of a city during the age of legends, had a little knowledge of millitary affairs, knew about the forsaken etc. this was all just him being LTT reborn. Memory but no real personality. The taint. IMO is responsable for the seperation between Rand and LTT. It gave the LTT memories personality.

Callandor: 2004-05-25

**Now that the taint has been removed Lews Therin has become saner. Not since more taint has seeped into Rand.**

Wrong. Since SHADAR LOGOTH, LTT has seemed saner. Rand doesn't specify that the removing of the taint did it. But what did Rand do to Cleanse saidin, at Shadar Logoth? That's right: channel more of tainted saidin then any other living male in the psat Age.

**RJ has said that said that now that the taint is gone the males won't get better but they will stay as mad as they were. Not get madder. If Lews Therin's state alters (as when he gets "saner") then he is not connected to the taint. Period.**

Umm... no. As I have said, more taint, when it was there, the saner LTT gets. No taint, no saner LTT.

I have NEVER said that LTT will continue to get saner and saner and Rand madder; I have said that it has happened in the books until that point.

And, excuse me, but, once again, what did Rand do at Shadar Logoth, which fits perfectly in with this theory? He channeled more of tainted saidin then any other male channeler ever. That is what makes LTT "saner."

**To make it obvious - show me a quote that says that the taint can break down the barriers between incarnations memories or even a quote that says reincarnations have the memories of their pryor lives while they are alive(not in TAR-bearing in mind that Birgitte is losing hers;without any SPECULATION about where they are going , because for all we know they are somehow stored in TAR until the person dies) but don't have access to them; these are both inferences; not facts.**

How do you explain Mat's memory of leading soliders of Manetheren in TDR? That was certainly not his memory, from him (not the Finn or anything), and from a past life. Yet he remembers it. There must be something that allowed him to remember, something there TO remember.

**As for the progression of Rand's access- you suggest it is the accumulation of the taint within Rand, but the amount of the OP he has channeled scales directly with the taint ergo it could easily be the OP which is the determining factor in his progression.**

What? The OP is making Rand sicker? How about any AoL male Aes Sedai? Did they get sicker when they channeled? Do any of the male Forsaken get sicker when they channel saidin?

**So as this responsibility drops on Rand's shoulders, he becomes more able to see the world from LTT's perspective and according to my theory; memories of LTT were implanted in his mind; thus as he thinks like LTT he can gain better access to those memories.**

So, Rand is thinking like an AoL channeler, due to stress. Uh huh....

**The perception of a barrier in this version of As of AoL/taint theory is a psychological construct as is the "personality" associated with those memories- ...I can construct similar arguments for a set of weave protected memories implanted in his mind.**

Ah. Of course. A weave that sets memories in a person's mind. Please quote an example of that weave. Please do. I would LOVE to see that.

**As for "sarcasm"-this comment is very shortsighted. The DO has existed through uncounted turnings of the WoT. Although his access to specifics is limited, he knows the broad outlines of every event that ever occurred. As one of the Forsaken has stated his knowledge regarding the world is suprising both for ignorance and knowledge.**

Uh huh. So tell me, why hasn't he gotten free if he knows the basic ideas of all the Ages?

The Dark One had a singular opportunity; how many times do male channelers come to the center of your power, attempting to use seals to seal you away, allowing you a once in a lifetime opprunity to taint half of the Power that drives the universe? How the heck can you plan for something like that?

**Furthermore, the crux of the taint/soul theory is this-the taint affects Rand in a way that it hasn't affected ANYONE else, you yourself have proposed reasons why he is unique in this way, and the Dark One created the taint and the Dragon is his supposed nemesis; you're suggesting that one of the only direct actions the Dark One has taken affects his nemessis in a unique way and this is a COINCIDENCE?**

Once again, the Dark One did not taint saidin with the idea of "Oh, let me do this so in the future, when the Dragon is Reborn, he can co horribly insane." Muh hahahaha....

He does not know future events.

And hasn't affected anyone else?

Then how, oh please tell me how, that Cadsuane knows that the taint causes voices to be heard?

**TITLE: A Crown of Swords

CHAPTER 18: As the Plow Breaks the Earth

The woman looked at the battered tea things as if she had all the time in the world. "Now you know," she said at last, calm as ever, "that I know your future, your present. The Light's mercy fades to nothing for a man who can channel. Some see that and beleive the Light denies those men. I do not. Have you begun to hear voices, yet?"

"What do you mean?" he asked slowly. He could feel Lews Therin listening.

The tingle returned to his skin, and he very nearly channeled, but all that happened was that the teapot rose and floated to Cadsuane, turning slowly in the air for her to examine. "Some men who can channel begin to hear voices." She spoke almost absently, frowning at the flattened sphere of silver and gold. "It is part of the madness. Voices conversing with them, telling them what to do." The teapot drifted gently to the floor by her feet. "Have you heard any?"**

Please tell me, how it cannot be common to anyone except Rand, yet Cadsuane knows of it, and almost banks on it happening to Rand?

Rand is unique because he knows who he is the reincarnation of; he can put a name to the voice in his head.

Nevyn: 2004-05-26

How to begin?

"How do you explain Mat's memory of leading soldiers of Manetheren in TDR? That was certainly not his memory, from him (not the finn or anything), and from a past life. Yet he rememberes it. There must be something that allowed him to remember. Something there TO remember?"

Well, the truth is I don't feel the need to explain this; unless the quote says the memories are from a past life of Mat's then it doesn't fit the bill. It would be speculation to say it was from a past life. Moreover this was not the point of my questions; they were to make it clear that both theories are indeed theories not realities. Your previous arguments designed to undermine my theory were calling certain points I have made speculation obliged me to point out the speculation underlying the theory you're defending.(btw, have we adopted some sort of adversarial process here? I have no interest in sarcasm, and if I somehow instigated this I apologize and assure that it was not intentional)

In conclusion to this point the foundations of each theory here is conjecture. Speculation with respect to what the taint does, and speculation with respect to what the AS of the AoL might have done.

"What? The OP is making Rand sicker? How about any AoL male Aes Sedai? Did they get sicker when they channeled? Do any of the male forsaken get sicker when they channel saidin?"

My point about the OP was only an attempt to show that the taint was not the only thing that scaled roughly with increasing "contact" with "LTT". Rand's life changes very greatly over that period of time. The taint/soul theory makes the assumption that since he channels so very much and in increasing amounts over the same rough period of time, that it must be the cause. I mentioned the Power, because I had previously stated that the AS of the AoL might have created a weave that would allow rand access to the memories,only when he needed them or when he was ready for them, and a potential way to do that would be to link it to his use of the one power(kind of like the shield Lanfear placed on Asmodean, except with this one tuned to memory; the more he channels, the more access to the memories he gets) I didn't think it was necessary to state this explicitly, as I had already posted the idea in this thread.

"So, Rand is thinking like an AoL channeler, due to stress. Uh huh..."

I don't know what you mean here, I made the point and he does appear to be thinking more like Lews Therin; this might even be why, as time goes by, that Lews Therin seems saner to Rand, because they're thinking is becomming more in step. If you disagree I invite a more thorough digression.

"Ah. Of course. A weave that sets memories in a person's mind. Please quote an example of that weave. Please do. I would love to see that."

Well, I'm afraid I cannot oblige. I could give the examples I have already given; ter'angreal, etc. I can cite compulsion and weaves that "remove" tiredness(remove the perception of tiredness at any rate) as examples of the power manipulating the mind. All of these things , to me, indicate that it is certainly possible to implant memories by the use of the power, but I don't believe there is a quote to say that there is such a weave. Which, I imagine is your point, however this is not to say that it isn't possible there is such a weave. I would even go as far as to say that there is more evidence that the OP can accomplish memory transfer, than there is evidence that the taint can break some barrier between memories of different incarnations of the same soul.

"Uh huh. So tell me, why hasn't he gotten free if he knows the basic ideas of all the ages?"

Clearly I can't answer this. Only RJ can answer this(just as clearly rafo)I can only speculate. Do you mean this as an unanswerable question to refute the idea that the DO has access to a lot of information? I gave an example of one of the forsaken indicating that he knew a fair amount about current events, if not nearly complete knowledge but it doesn't take a psychic to predict the strike at shayol ghul if it had already happened before(from the DO's perspective). Anything directly involving the bore the Strike etc. should be old news to the DO. As for the rest of the world, and the rest of the ages. The DO has agents all over the place. Darkfriends crows, sometimes the forsaken are probably forced to tell him what they know. Assemble all of that through many loops of the wheel and it probably gives him an idea of what each age is. It is my speculation that the DO doesn't know what exact series of events will lead to his freedom. Or it is extremely difficult to make them happen.

"Please tell me, how it cannot be common to anyone except Rand, yet Cadsuane knows of it, and almost banks on it happening to Rand?

Rand is unique because he knows who he is the reincarnation of, he can put a name to the voice in his head."

Here you seem to be indicating a belief that the voices inside the minds of other male channelers corrupted by the taint are the voices of their previous incarnations(tell me if I'm wrong). This problem was the reason I created this alternate theory; if the voices are genuine, ie, they are memories from previous incarnations "animated" by the taint in the minds of the channeler, then all sorts of problems happen; how does the tower control male channelers whose knowledge of the OP exceed their own due to memories of previous ages? Someone like Taim or Logain would have torn the world to pieces in a second breaking of the world. Such men could conceal themselves using weaves, and since women can't sense it,(barring moghedien's complex and apparently forgotten weave) they would have the run of the world. I mentioned all of this earlier in the thread.

Callandor: 2004-05-27

**Well, the truth is I don't feel the need to explain this; unless the quote says the memories are from a past life of Mat's then it doesn't fit the bill. It would be speculation to say it was from a past life.**

What?

Where is Mat from? The Two Rivers. What was the place where the Two Rivers currently is, once called? Manetheren. What does Mat have? The Old Blood. Where do all the only confirmed cases of the Old Blood originate from? Manetheren.

Mat thinks of himself as that leader. I think it is quite illogical to suppose that it is not a memory from Mat's past life.

**My point about the OP was only an attempt to show that the taint was not the only thing that scaled roughly with increasing "contact" with "LTT". Rand's life changes very greatly over that period of time. The taint/soul theory makes the assumption that since he channels so very much and in increasing amounts over the same rough period of time, that it must be the cause.**

No. Look at all the events which LTT gets "stronger" or "saner." They all are right after Rand has handled tremendous amounts of saidin. What is on saidin, that we know harms channelers? Oh look at that, the taint.

**I mentioned the Power, because I had previously stated that the AS of the AoL might have created a weave that would allow rand access to the memories,only when he needed them or when he was ready for them, and a potential way to do that would be to link it to his use of the one power(kind of like the shield Lanfear placed on Asmodean, except with this one tuned to memory; the more he channels, the more access to the memories he gets) I didn't think it was necessary to state this explicitly, as I had already posted the idea in this thread.**

Once again, give an example of any weave that even hints that this is even possible, let alone that the Aes Sedai could do this, let alone that they would've, let alone that they would've known to.

All of those reasons point to useless supposition.

**All of these things , to me, indicate that it is certainly possible to implant memories by the use of the power, but I don't believe there is a quote to say that there is such a weave.**

No, some of them give ways to experience memories (the Aiel Clan Chief way). No ter'angreal physically implants memories directly into a person, like the way you are trying to explain. Let alone, that they do it over time, instead of all at once.

**Do you mean this as an unanswerable question to refute the idea that the DO has access to a lot of information?**

A lot of information is quite different then future knowledge. The Dark One does not know what the Pattern weaves. He could not point out to Ishamael "Look, there! Dragonmount! Go kill the Dragon!"

Every Age is different. Every turning of the same Age is different. RJ's example of this is looking at two tapestries (one Age, the other is the same Age, next turning). From a distance, they look the same. You get closer, you see differences. Even closer, more differences. Right up next to it, they look nothing the same.

You cannot say that the Dark One would plan around events for Ages when he has no idea what would be woven out next. He is not omnipotent. Otherwise, he would be free already.

** gave an example of one of the forsaken indicating that he knew a fair amount about current events, if not nearly complete knowledge but it doesn't take a psychic to predict the strike at shayol ghul if it had already happened before(from the DO's perspective).**

The Dark One relies on what his information webs tell him. That is why he had Demandred inform him of the events of the world. Demandred is surprised, because the Dark One knew things from other sources of information, other then Demandred himself.

**This problem was the reason I created this alternate theory; if the voices are genuine, ie, they are memories from previous incarnations "animated" by the taint in the minds of the channeler, then all sorts of problems happen; how does the tower control male channelers whose knowledge of the OP exceed their own due to memories of previous ages?**

Because previous Ages didn't know everything about the Power. And you can have all the knowledge of the One Power, and be shielded (Moggy as well as Lanfear), and can do nothing. You can be shot with an arrow, and you are just as dead.

To ask a philisophical question which shouldn't be taken as something to be discussed:

Who says they need to control? ;)

**Someone like Taim or Logain would have torn the world to pieces in a second breaking of the world. Such men could conceal themselves using weaves, and since women can't sense it,(barring moghedien's complex and apparently forgotten weave) they would have the run of the world. I mentioned all of this earlier in the thread.**

There are differences. Cadsuane says some men have heard voices. Some. Not all. Madness affects in different ways.

Example is at the Black Tower. One of the recruits, after the first day, claimed of spiders crawling over him.

Madness takes direct ways; madness takes subtle ways.

Some men go crazy in a day. Others in a year. Others after 6 or more (Logain hasn't gone noticably nuts). How or why, I have no clue as to. Their minds can't take it, whatever explaination you want to give it.

Anubis: 2004-05-27

**Every Age is different. Every turning of the same Age is different. RJ's example of this is looking at two tapestries (one Age, the other is the same Age, next turning). From a distance, they look the same. You get closer, you see differences. Even closer, more differences. Right up next to it, they look nothing the same. **

and the dark one sees the distance. he sees similarities which may... MAY... explain some of his suprising knowledge.

eg. in every third age there are warders... or there is a white tower that splits... or somthing like that. his knowledge would seem suprising but he would know no detail.

Callandor: 2004-05-28

**and the dark one sees the distance. he sees similarities which may... MAY... explain some of his suprising knowledge.**

The Dark One relies on his spy networks; nothing else. The only "surprising" information the Dark One knows, is the information Demandred doesn't.

: 2004-05-30

"What? Where is Mat from? The Two Rivers. What was the place where the Two Rivers currently is once called? Manetheren. What does Mat have? The Old Blood. Where do all the confirmed cases of the Old Blood originate from? Manetheren. Mat thinks of himself as that leader. I think it is quite illogical to suppose that it is not a memory from Mat's past life."

The construction of this argument is very interesting; your use of the word "suppose" for instance, as I am supposing nothing. Facts; there is no direct statement that says that Mat is anyone reborn from Manetheren; thus it is you who is supposing things in this statement. That there is evidence in favour of your supposition I will not dispute, but it is not a fact. In point of fact there is evidence to support my supposition with regard to the origin of the LTT persona within Rand.

"No. Look at all the events which LTT gets "stronger" or "saner" They all are right after Rand has handled tremendous amounts of saidin. What is on saidin, that we know harms channelers? Oh look at that, the taint."

I'm fine with those facts, perhaps not the interpretation however; my theory is regarding the origin of LTT's memories within Rand not the behaviour of LTT- ie. in this case Rand's handling of saidin and absorbtion of large amounts of the taint "animate" a persona in Rand's mind he calls LTT. A persona whose composition is not entirely certain; save that at least one part of it is memories of LTT that I theorize came from a "vector" provided by, or used by the AS of the AoL. Note also that the LTT persona also becomes "aware" or "online" when the memories of LTT could be of use to Rand; ie at the end of LoC, when he needs to be able to draw; this fits a pattern with regard to Mat's memories; when he needs them, or a situation that is similar to one that is described in a memory that was implanted comes up, they surface.

"Once again, give an example of any weave that even hints that this is even possible, let alone that the Aes Sedai could do this,let alone that they would've, let alone that they would've known to.

All of those point to useless supposition."

"useless supposition" is the substance of every theory that I have read. To point this out, pretty much everything could be refuted by Robert Jordan without causing any paradoxes, or inconsistencies; as there are multiple explanations possible given the "data". The taint/soul theory is composed of useless supposition, as is my own theory, there are no definitive proofs at all, save what RJ decides to call "truth" and what is definitively stated in the series or the big white book, new spring; you get the idea. Unless it says somewhere in those source materials or RJ has said it, it is not true. Until the next book. That all being said, unless you can show me a quote saying that the taint does what you say it does, you are making a supposition. A supposition with evidence does not the truth make.

As for the actual substance of that quote, in this thread I have responded to every single element you mention. Motive, means, opportunity.(note; this doesn't mean I don't like supposition, I wouldn't post theories if I didn't, it's just that you can't defend a supposition by calling all other theories suppositions; it doesn't make any sense)

"No, some of them give ways to experience memories(the Aiel clan chief way). No ter'angreal physically implants memories into a person, like the way you are trying to explain. Let alone, that they do it over time instead of all at once."

Here you are making another supposition; the way the event is described sort of suggests that Rand is "experiencing" memories, to use your term, however, what would having memories implanted in your mind seem like? Perhaps the mind would make it seem like you are experiencing those events that are implanted.(Think Total Recall). Not to mention the writing difficulties of describing that-...and then some memories were implanted into his mind. Here's what they were...

It kind of lacks poetry.

MH: 2010-03-11

This is the basis for my theory about how Rand will survive the Last Battle (hopefully will get posted soon). I think he will live and Alivia will help him kill off the Lews Therin part of him. I'm of two minds about whether Lews Therin is cohabiting the body with him or, as you said, there is a time link between them. I dismissed the time link because I figured it was too outlandish even for WoT, but thanks to you, I see that it's possible. Furthermore, this sheds some light on a question that has been bugging me for some time: Why did RJ open the series with a detailed description of how Lews Therin created Dragonmount? None of the other prologues have been so powerful or have gone back so far in time. Is the opening scene of WoT supposed to be its climax as well? Was the creation of Dragonmount the point at which Rand achieved victory over the Dark One by reaching back through time and creating a link with Lews Therin? Does the story end where it began, in essence turning back to its beginning like a wheel?

PillowFriends: 2010-03-12

Maybe I misread, maybe I misunderstood or maybe I have just forgotten the details (sucks getting old), but it's my impression after reading The Gathering Storm that LT is now gone, permanently.

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and and Lews Therin

by Blademaster: 2004-03-13 | Not yet rated

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