soul at birth?
by Darren: 2004-04-17 | Not yet rated
Been reading Uno's ideas on the birth on the slopes of Dragonmount
Uno's Theoryland Chronicles... (don't bother replying until you've followed the link, please)
Having read, I am forced to consider the possibility that babies are either born without souls, or do not receive souls until birth. (I favour the latter)
This would explain the "tragedy" that would happen were Rand to be born anywhere but the "slopes of Dragonmount." The Pattern would not recognize him as the true Dragon, and so he would not receive the "reborn" soul of LTT at birth.
I feel compelled to add this as Uno does not adequately explain the link between portent and transmigration of the soul.
In fact, this may well explain one important aspect of the Pattern; the threading of souls to newborns, and how the pattern decides how those bound to the Horn are given new life.
In this respect, the migration of souls into the newly born becomes an interesting reinterpretation of the words "manifest destiny."
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1
Tamyrlin: 2004-06-13
The main issue I have with the suggestion that the Pattern waits until birth to place the soul, has to do with the obvious ability that exists for events to be predicted. The birth of LTT was predicted, because it was a known future event. The Pattern knew what decisions would be made and where the mother would be that had the child, that would be LTT's soul. The Wheel willed the future to be, shaping it, so that Rand's Aiel mother died there and Tam came by and picked him up. Each of their threads were weaved into that moment, it was planned, and therefore the Wheel wouldn't have to weave the soul of the individual at birth, since that birth was going to happen, without doubt. In other words, I don't believe Uno's idea supports your suggestion that the Pattern must wait until birth to place the soul...do you have anything else from the books that might suggest such is the case? (Can anyone remember Birgitte's suggestion about Gaidal missing, and what that meant?)
2
charliec: 2004-06-13
Hmm, birgitte did seem to reckon that Gaidal would already been in the world as a screaming infant, despite only having gone missing recently...
3
Tamyrlin: 2004-06-13
By the way, I mentioned Rand's Aiel mother...obviously, I know it was Tigraine, but I consider her classified as "Aiel", considering whose side she was fighting on.
4
Callandor: 2004-06-13
**In this respect, the migration of souls into the newly born becomes an interesting reinterpretation of the words "manifest destiny."**
**Q: When a soul is reborn, at what point does it enter the body?
RJ:I'd have to say as a fetus. When the body becomes capable of sustaining life.**
5
Zaela Sedai: 2004-06-13
Here's that quote Tam,
**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 36 - A New Name
“This is not Tel'aran'rhiod.” It was not a question, but Elayne nodded, and Birgitte sank back with a long sigh. “I remember everything,” she whispered. “I am here as I am, and I remember.~~ All is changed. Gaidal is out there, somewhere, an infant, or even a young boy. ~~But even if I find him, what will he think of a woman more than old enough to be his mother?” She scrubbed angrily at her eyes, muttering, “I do not cry. I never cry. I remember that, the Light help me. I never cry,” **
6
Zaela Sedai: 2004-06-13
I would definately say that the soul is in the child before he is born, the pattern would account for this and make sure that it has a high chance of survival. As for Rand the Pattern made sure he was born there, which lends the idea that he was ta'veren to begin with, even before he was born and pulled all the strings (i.e. Shaeil still being a maiden even though she was married and pregnant and Janduin letting her go) for him to be born on Dragonmount. If he wasn't he wouldn't be the Dragon.
7
a dragonburned fool: 2004-06-14
What if the Pattern needs such events (like birth on Dragonmount's slopes) to synchronize it's own intervention plans accompanied with that soul. LTT's soul must be reborn, well, but for the Wheel to put it in the right way in the weaving with all the ta'verenal faclities needed, it could need a very specifically located starting point in the Pattern: an event having that and that as it's characteristics.
8
charliec: 2004-06-14
Well done Callandor, that's that dealt with then...
9
Callandor: 2004-06-14
**As for Rand the Pattern made sure he was born there, which lends the idea that he was ta'veren to begin with, even before he was born and pulled all the strings (i.e. Shaeil still being a maiden even though she was married and pregnant and Janduin letting her go) for him to be born on Dragonmount. If he wasn't he wouldn't be the Dragon.**
I remember an interview which the question of "When did Rand, Mat, and Perrin become ta'vern?" came up, and I know RJ said, "Right before Moiraine and Lan arrived." But I cannot find it now, so don't take me quite at my word yet.
I don't think Rand was ta'veren since birth; there were ta'veren events that happened that led up to his birth, but if he was ta'veren his entire life, he wouldn't look twice at bricks falling down in perfect circles or lambs being born with two heads. He would take it as something matter of the day.
10
Zaela Sedai: 2004-06-15
You may very well be right Callandor, you tend to be a lot of the time;)
But the wheel also makes ta'veren as neccessary, and it may have been neccessary for Rand to have been one at the time before his birth, say until Tam found him and then he was not anymore until Moiraine and Lan found him. The pattern does what is neccessary, so it's a plausible idea. RJ probably never thought that whole thing all the way through at the time, it's been known to happen occasionally. Actually I should say he thought it through, but not far enough to handle our over analysing of everything:)
11
Davian93: 2004-06-16
****I don't think Rand was ta'veren since birth; there were ta'veren events that happened that led up to his birth, but if he was ta'veren his entire life, he wouldn't look twice at bricks falling down in perfect circles or lambs being born with two heads. He would take it as something matter of the day. ****
Probably not, or it would have been remarked upon that there were three really lucky boys that suspend chance living in the Two Rivers. Somebody would have mentioned it by now.
12
Callandor: 2004-06-20
Found the answer at the Encyclopaedia WoT, found here:
http://www.photeus.com:8090/~ewot/
Go to the Index, click on "ta'veren", scroll down to the bottom and you will see a reference list with the first one being "Glimmers Q&A". There you will find:
**One becomes ta'veren according to the needs of the Wheel. No one is born ta'veren. Rand, Mat and Perrin became ta'veren just before Moiraine appeared.**
13
Dai Shan: 2004-07-10
I think everyone seems to be bypassing the matter of parallel realities. I can't relate to any specific quotes that could substantiate an argument but if anyone can find any in relation to the DR's life in one, it may unlock a key to this discussion.
My thoughts ---> Because the parallel universes change the course of people's lives at certain points it may show if they are born ta'veren or not from the way their lives turn out?
