1
Tamyrlin: 2004-07-14
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
Be'lazamon will love this one... he's been saying something similar to this for years. Personally i think they're blinded by the promises of power and immortality that they're already enjoying. I think the DO will need people to help run his new world order. Be'lazamon thinking along more nihilistic lines; that the DO will destroy everyone and everything, including his most loyal servents. the human ones, anyway.
2
Callandor: 2004-07-14
**Does it seem a little bit suspicious to anyone else that the Forsaken all take orders unquestioningly from the Dark One?**
Not in the least. They believe that once freed, he will give them gifts of immortality, which they have seen (according to RJ), so why not believe him? Sort of have to, once you take his alligence don't you? You know, being killed for sure once you turn away.
3
Anubis: 2004-07-15
I would have to agree with Ishmael. The Dark One will destroy everything.
4
Elder Haman: 2004-07-15
I've been saying the same thing- The Dark One will destroy the Pattern, because the Pattern is his prison. I think most of the Forsaken believe the Dark One because they want to believe him. The two most intelligent are the exceptions. Lanfear was always planning to betray the Dark One- so who knows what she believed about the Dark One's promises. Ishamael is the only one who knows for sure what the Dark One's goal is- but he supports it. (Philosophy types like him can occasionally go really nuts).
5
brother of Battles: 2004-07-15
No, I don't think the DO will destroy the world. Because in order to destroy the world, he would have to destroy everything about it, that would probably cause his existance to extinguish also. I think he wants what the creator has. It is the basic desire for evil to crave power. Just as the Devil wants what God has made, the DO wants what the Creator made.
6
Great Lord of the Dark: 2004-07-16
The Chosen have thought of this. That's why they're worried they will all be pushed aside in favor of Rand.
7
Anubis: 2004-07-16
you have to clear rubble before you can rebuild. the dark one wants either no pattern or a pattern in his own image. so if the dark one breaks free either way he will destroy the pattern completely before he does anything.
8
Saldean Farm Boy: 2004-07-29
My question is simply this. Why don't the Forsaken try to "finish" the bore. If they just went ahead and completed what Lanfear and the others started giving the DO greater power in the land.
Unless... like previously posted the DO does not want to destroy everything but control everyting. The Wheel stays intact the DO just sets the weave so everything is stacked in his favor in his "game" with the Creator.
9
snakes-n-foxes: 2004-08-01
I believe it was said somewhere in the books that the Dark One was seeking to break the pattern... whatever that means.
But what has always stumped me about this sort of theory is... the nature of the bore.
It is always assumed in this day and age that the Dark One will be free when the final seal is broken.
If so, then the Dark One was free before the bore was sealed...and the Forsaken had Immortality (until the sealing of the bore).
If the Dark One is NOT freed when the final seal crumbles...what then is necessary to free him.
Or is the Dark One being 'free' just a relative term ?
Perhaps Rand turning to the Dark is the one and true, final straw needed to free the Dark One.
10
Callandor: 2004-08-03
**If so, then the Dark One was free before the bore was sealed...and the Forsaken had Immortality (until the sealing of the bore).**
The Forsaken have never been immortal. They work ~toward~ the goal of immortality, and are promised it whne the Dark One breaks free.
**If the Dark One is NOT freed when the final seal crumbles...what then is necessary to free him.
Or is the Dark One being 'free' just a relative term ?**
Relative term. The Dark One being free is not to be taken lightly though.
If there is a small hole in the wall, and you stick your finger through it, you can do only so much to the other side. This is like the Dark One with the seals in place (less then seven seals; seven seals is totally no hole in the wall). With no seals in place, let's say the Dark One could get his entire hand through it. Greater degree of control on his part, and more touching, corrupting of the world.
**Perhaps Rand turning to the Dark is the one and true, final straw needed to free the Dark One.**
Eh, who knows (RJ!)
And yes, the Dark One is adament about being free from his sealed prison.
**TITLE: Path of Daggers
CHAPTER: 2 - Unweaving
He seized the True Power without thought, the saa billowing black across his sight. His fingers tightened in the wrought-iron grille across the window; the metal groaned, twisting, not from his grip but from the tendrils of the True Power, drawn from the Great Lord himself, that wreathed around the grillework, flexing as he flexed his hand in anger. The Great Lord would not be pleased. He had strained from his prison to touch the world enough to fix the seasons in place. *He was impatient to touch the world more, to shatter the void that contained him, and he would not be pleased.* Rage enveloped Moridin, blood pounding in his ears. A moment past, he had not cared where those women went, but now. . . . Somewhere far from here. People fleeing ran as far and as fast as they could. Somewhere they felt safe. No use sending Madic to ask questions, no use squeezing anyone here; they would not have been fool enough to leave anyone behind alive who knew their destination. Not to Tar Valon. To al'Thor? To that band of rebel Aes Sedai? In all three places he had eyes, some that did not know they served him. All would serve him, before the end. He would not allow chance slips to spoil his plans now. Abruptly he heard something other than the thundering drumbeat of his own fury. A bubbling sound. He looked at Madic curiously, and stepped back from the spreading puddle on the floor. It seemed that in his anger he had seized at more than the wrought-iron screen with the True Power. Remarkable how much blood could be squeezed from a human body.**
11
Celana: 2004-08-07
What's the fun in destroying the Pattern? Then there's nobody to control or rule. And another thing, the DO is imprisoned OUTSIDE the pattern. The pattern is not his prison. The bore is in the place where the pattern is thinest, so it is also the best place to access the DO's prison. Maybe his prison is some kind of barrier around the pattern, not a cage to keep him in, a wall that keeps him out. He can do whatever he wants on the outside but can't touch the inside.
Also remember, it's the WHEEL the DO want's to destroy, not the pattern. If he can mess with time, make it linear or something, maybe he can stop the reincarnation process. Then the dragon can never be reborn and there will be no one who can ever defy him again.
As for the Forsaken. I think they're just too afraid of the DO to not do what he says. We all know what happens when somebody fails or disobeys orders from the DO. Their personal wishes really don't matter to the DO and they know that.
12
Jalwin Moerad: 2004-08-09
Maybe I'm missing something here, but many of you writing in seem to believe that "remake the world in his own image" essentially means that the Dark One will leave the world as it is. In other words, he will want "people" to rule, and have to obey the laws of the universe that are already in place.
It seems to me that when he breaks free he will have unlimited power. He can do anything: control time, life, death, and space. If so, then he has no need of "administrative officials" (chosen/forsaken). In other words, there is absolutely no need for the Dark One to fulfill any promises or keep any erstwhile servants.
It is therefore illogical that thousands upon thousands of darkfriends, including the Forsaken, are willing to sacrifice their lives, honor, etc. when the Dark One will kill/torture them all upon the moment he is freed. The Forsaken are smart enough to realize it, or should be. Therefore, the only recourse is that either the Dark One, as I stated before, cannot be freed, or that certain criteria must be met that the Chosen try to prevent being meant. In other words, like snake-n-foxes suggested, that Rand must turn to the Dark One for him to be free.
But this doesn't make sense, because we know that the Dragon has fallen to the Dark One before and the DO has not broken free. In addition, if there were other criteria to be met (besides breaking the seals), for instance harnassing the Choedan Kal to tear the pattern wide open, and the Chosen were aware of the impact it would have, (and as I postulated earlier, were against the Dark One's complete release), they would block it. In which case the Dark One would kill them. In other words, no darkfriends win, ever.
I understand that this whole theory is based upon the supposition that the Dark One would kill everything upon his freedom, but it seems logical; why would he keep the remnants of the Creator's world? It also seems logical to assume the Chosen know this and would oppose his freedom; I don't think that they're so afraid of possible retribution (for treason) that they would continue working for certain death. Therefore, the Dark One must be irretrievably locked into his prison. He cannot break free, ever.
13
snakes-n-foxes: 2004-08-10
Celana, if the Dark One is imprisoned outside the prison (which he is), then the pattern is his prison.
Think of it this way - you've got the whole world to play with...but there's no one and nothing your prison world ...BUT...there is a single gate...a barred gate...and there's millions of people on the other side of a barred gate (the pattern)...but you can't go there or touch it...
Isn't then the Dark One in a prison ?
Wouldn't he want to destroy that Gate ?
14
Dorindha: 2004-08-10
Celana - yes the DO wants to destroy the wheel, but only in the sense that the wheel makes the pattern. I'm fairly sure the pattern is his prison - I think it's been confirmed in an interview or something (Callandor probably knows). He will destroy the pattern upon breaking free, but that doesn't mean he will destroy the world - the pattern is made up of people's actions and so on, so yes, there wold be immense chaos, but no, the world would not be destroyed.
On the topic in hand - I agree with Frenzy, the forsaken are blinded by the promise of immortality and power. Haveing said that, the DO will not necessarily destroy everything straight off - he wants to remodel everything with him as the supreme being, the forsaken may well be needed for governance, as they were in the War of the Power. Then again, when the DO's completely free, there might be no need for that!
15
Callandor: 2004-08-10
**Celana, if the Dark One is imprisoned outside the prison (which he is), then the pattern is his prison.**
Ok, everyone listen up.
**BWB: page 16
CHAPTER: 1 - The Wheel and the Pattern
*The only known forces outside the Wheel and the Pattern are the Creator, who shaped the Wheel, the One Power that drives it--as well as the plan for the Great Pattern--and the Dark One, who was imprisoned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation.* No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern. Even those who are [i]ta'veren[/i] can only alter, but not completely change, the weave. It is believed that if he escapes his prison, the Dark One, being a creature or force beyond creation, has the ability to remake the Wheel and all of creation in his own dark image. Thus each person, especially each of those born [i]ta'veren[/i], must struggle to achieve his or her own best destiny to assure the balance and continuation of the Great Pattern.**
Dark One is imprisoned outside the Pattern.
And in the quote I gave above:
**TITLE: Path of Daggers, CHAPTER: 2 - Unweaving
He seized the True Power without thought, the saa billowing black across his sight. His fingers tightened in the wrought-iron grille across the window; the metal groaned, twisting, not from his grip but from the tendrils of the True Power, drawn from the Great Lord himself, that wreathed around the grillework, flexing as he flexed his hand in anger. The Great Lord would not be pleased. He had strained from his prison to touch the world enough to fix the seasons in place. *He was impatient to touch the world more, to shatter the void that contained him, and he would not be pleased.* Rage enveloped Moridin, blood pounding in his ears. A moment past, he had not cared where those women went, but now. . . . Somewhere far from here. People fleeing ran as far and as fast as they could. Somewhere they felt safe. No use sending Madic to ask questions, no use squeezing anyone here; they would not have been fool enough to leave anyone behind alive who knew their destination. Not to Tar Valon. To al'Thor? To that band of rebel Aes Sedai? In all three places he had eyes, some that did not know they served him. All would serve him, before the end. He would not allow chance slips to spoil his plans now. Abruptly he heard something other than the thundering drumbeat of his own fury. A bubbling sound. He looked at Madic curiously, and stepped back from the spreading puddle on the floor. It seemed that in his anger he had seized at more than the wrought-iron screen with the True Power. Remarkable how much blood could be squeezed from a human body.**
Now, I know how difficult it is to see something obvious, but think about it.
What is the Wheel? All the Wheel is, the only thing it does, is create. It weaves the bodies and souls of a person together to create their threads. That's it.
What is the Pattern? The Pattern is the culmanation of those threads into a preordained plan. In simplicity, the Pattern can be defined as "reality." It is what makes things real. It is the interaction between threads and takes in all events and weaves them to set goals at the end of the Pattern, the end of the Age, and then another Pattern takes up for the next Age to weave the reality (all the Patterns collectively is teh Great Pattern (to get really specific, the Pattern for each Age is the Pattern of the Age ;))).
The Wheel makes the "stuff" for the world; the Pattern is the "world." Simple, right?
Then what is the hard part in understanding that the Dark One is not imprisoned by the Pattern itself?
Look at TPOD quote. The Dark One wants to "shatter the void" that contains him. Why? So he can touch the world.
Well, go back to the very simple definitions we just made. The Wheel makes the "stuff" for the world. Does the Dark One want to touch that? No. The Pattern is the "world." Does the Dark One want to touch that? Yes!
So how can the Dark One be contained by a void he wants to shatter, to go touch the Pattern, if he is contained by the Pattern? Simple.
The Dark One is not contained by the Pattern at all. He longs to break from his prison to reach out more to the Pattern.
16
Celana: 2004-08-10
SnF, are you speaking metaphorically about the Pattern being the DO's prison? If not, then I don't think I understand what you're trying to say. Are you saying the DO can see the Pattern and it's tortuing him that he can't mess with it?
A world of nothing and no one is a prison in and of itself. The DO being able to sense the Pattern is like the Maidens stuffing Galina into that sack with itch powder. It's poetic justice.
I think the general belief among darkfriends is that when the DO says he wants to "remakes the world in his own image" it means he will destroy any and all forms of government/authority in the world and replace them with a hierarchy of darkfriends controling the entire world with every being on the planet ultimately under the DO's control. All the darkfriends compete for a better position in this hierarchy. That's the reasoning of a darkfriend.
I think what we're really trying to do here is establish the true intentions of the DO. Does he simply want to destroy everyone and everything in the world? Or does he want every being on the planet for his devoted slave? Will he truly have the same power as the Creator if he is freed?
Some of the answers may only come in RAFO format!
17
ReDragon: 2007-10-07
Jalwin Moerad when he says
Quote
***It seems to me that when he breaks free he will have unlimited power. He can do anything: control time, life, death, and space. If so, then he has no need of "administrative officials" (chosen/forsaken). In other words, there is absolutely no need for the Dark One to fulfill any promises or keep any erstwhile servants***
The DO could destroy everything, but what's the fun in that? Tyrants need to boss people around. Think of the creator as a God, the DO wants these powers and only by defeating the creator can he have them. To defeat the creator he needs out. Now the FS may realize that the DO getting out may kill them, but they may have been promised rebirth if this happens. Besides if the DO gets creator like powers, he could do anything, make anything etc. Celana said it best and I agree with this
Quote
***I think the general belief among darkfriends is that when the DO says he wants to "remakes the world in his own image" it means he will destroy any and all forms of government/authority in the world and replace them with a hierarchy of darkfriends controling the entire world with every being on the planet ultimately under the DO's control. All the darkfriends compete for a better position in this hierarchy. That's the reasoning of a darkfriend.***
And why would the DO kill the FS after he's freed? It’s not like anyone or even all of them combined could match the DO once he's free.
This sounds like the Valheru plan from Feist's "Darkness at Sethanon" / "Riftwar trilogy".
