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ews Therin Trapped?
by danger: 2004-05-03 | Not yet rated
Previous Categories: Miscellaneous
Now it seems that Lews is speaking from personal experience, he has somehow trapped himself, and a greater power has trapped him again so he cannot die. This raises the questions 1) how/where did he trap himself? and 2) what other power is involved here?
1) I for one think that LTT is at least in some capacity ALIVE in Rand's head. He is able to tell the past from the present, he is able to speak and listen to Rand. He respond's to danger's to rand and can see things through his eyes. "trapped forever so you cannot die" I think one of two things. Either that the soul of LTT is TRAPPED inside Rand's head, where he doesn't want to be, or else trapped (in some capacity still alive) in another other place (behind the pattern, world of dreams, whatever) and his only contact to the world we know is through Rand.
2) Perhaps in his last moment of sanity Lews bound/sealed/protected some part of himself for unknown reasons using his own power. (this is under the assumption that the one power can be called "his") Then at some later time the the other power took him and sealed him where he is now (Rand's head or some other place where he can reach Rand's head) If so, I would have to guess that this power is the creator. Opperating on my previous assumption about the power being "his", there can be only a few things greater. The Creator or the Dark one, or perhaps the wheel/pattern itself.
I suppose if we really wanted to speculate any of these three options might be interesting possibilities, but for the sake of making any type of sense I'm going to limit this theory to one guess, the creator. Perhaps he, like the dark one, can reach back and pick out a life for recycling. Like people being bound to the horn or bound to the wheel perhaps the Creator can bind the Dragon wherever he chooses. We know that the Dragon has been spun out many times, but has the Dragon ever been "alive" to help the Dragon Reborn?
After 3000 years maybe LTT is tired of this. Duty is heavier than a mountian, and all he wants is to die. I don't know. Hope this starts some people thinking though.
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2004-08-04
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
A somewhat new take on the two-soul debate. i don't belive it, obviously, but i don't think anyone's entertained the idea that Lews Therin is still alive.
Though the quote you pulled is interesting. It may lead credence to the theory that the Dragon soul is a Hero's soul, trapped forever to the Wheel, stuck in a a rut (pun intended) for all eternity. Endless repetition of the same general life may wear on a soul.
Saldean Farm Boy: 2004-08-04
I have beleved for a long time now that Lewis Therin is really there in Rand's head. If a soul can be taken from one body and put into another I do not see why another soul can't be "stored" in a body with some one else.
It is the perfect trump card for the Creator. You have this amazing feat that needs to be done and a lot of people trying to stop it. They all see Rand as a very young inexperienced channler. But he has access to the greatest channler in an age of great channlers, right there in his head. Thus allowing him to do things he shouldn't be able to.
Celana: 2004-08-04
This theory ties in nicely with the response I made to the "Who's the other voice?" theory yesterday.
I'm one of the one soul believers. I have also thought that the way LTT died could have something to do with Rand's problems now. I don't think LTT died completely. Using that much of the power at once surely destrlyed his body, but who's to say what it did to his consciousness. The fact is the pattern NEEDS the Dragon and so forced the dragon soul to be reborn anyway. So why hasn't Rand been hearing LTT his entire life? Perhaps LTT was dormant or asleep and either Rand beginning to channel or the taint caused him to "wake up." As for the "other power," sure the most likely choice is the creator, who got LTT into this mess. Wouldn't you feel trapped if you were a dismembered voice floating around inside someone elses head? BTW has Rand ever told LTT that he is the Dragon Reborn? Does LTT realize who Rand is?
Tamin: 2004-08-04
"Perhaps in his last moment of sanity Lews bound/sealed/protected some part of himself for unknown reasons using his own power."
I think that if LTT had done that it would be in his POV, at the start of TEotW.
Also, LTT is not REAL. He is a symptom of the taint on saidin getting to Rand. Remember what Cadsuane said. Rand, of course, believes LTT to be real, because LTT can apparently remember his previous life. I think that this is false, however, that the taint induced LTT has access to Rand's subconcious memories of his previous life, or some such.
Callandor: 2004-08-05
**Now it seems that Lews is speaking from personal experience, he has somehow trapped himself, and a greater power has trapped him again so he cannot die. This raises the questions 1) how/where did he trap himself? and 2) what other power is involved here?**
Lews Therin is a fictional voice in Rand al'Thor' head. He is dead.
**Either that the soul of LTT is TRAPPED inside Rand's head, where he doesn't want to be, or else trapped (in some capacity still alive) in another other place (behind the pattern, world of dreams, whatever) and his only contact to the world we know is through Rand.**
Lews Therin was the Dragon. Rand al'Thor is the Dragon Reborn. Rand al'Thor and Lews Therin have the same soul, different rebirths. Lews Therin was the Dragon's soul reborn in the Second Age (the AoL); Rand al'Thor is the Dragon reborn (Reborn, get it ;)) of the Third Age. There is not another soul in Rand. There is one soul, with two personalities.
**Audience: The question is, with Rand and LTT, do they have 1 soul or 2 souls in the body?
Robert Jordan: They have 1 soul with 2 personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I came hobbled together.**
** so, I would have to guess that this power is the creator. Opperating on my previous assumption about the power being "his", there can be only a few things greater. The Creator or the Dark one, or perhaps the wheel/pattern itself.**
There are two "Powers." One, is the One Power, divided into saidin and saidar, for male channelers and female channelers respectively. There is also the True Power. This is drawn from the Dark One himself, and avaible (now) to only Moridin as Nae'blis.
As far as we know, there are no other Powers at all, and the existance of one seems kind of pointless since it ruins the dual role of RJ's universe (Dark One has one; what's the Creators...?).
**Perhaps he, like the dark one, can reach back and pick out a life for recycling.**
Sure, perhaps he can. But he does not. He does not interfere--ever.
**Like people being bound to the horn or bound to the wheel perhaps the Creator can bind the Dragon wherever he chooses.**
The Dragon is one of the Heroes of the Horn.
**Q: "Is this soul born in any other age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as The Dragon/TDR?"
A: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.**
**We know that the Dragon has been spun out many times, but has the Dragon ever been "alive" to help the Dragon Reborn?**
Not as far as we know, and it doesn't seem like it is now either.
LTT was talking to Rand about how no one can live a life without having control spots (chains, threads, leashes). Rand has Min, Elayne, Avi, and he would do anything to help them in danger if needed. That is easily a trap for him. See?
**If a soul can be taken from one body and put into another I do not see why another soul can't be "stored" in a body with some one else.**
1. Only the Dark One has switched souls into a different body. The Creator does not do this. The Wheel takes a soul, and puts it into a new body when they are reborn.
2. It stands that if the Dark One can do it, the Creator should be able to. But once again, he does not. He does not interfere.
**I don't think LTT died completely.**
How is that?
**Using that much of the power at once surely destrlyed his body, but who's to say what it did to his consciousness.**
Well, no more life = no more consciousness.
mako0424: 2004-08-05
i am of the opinion that all the dragons stem from one soul, which shares the body of the current dragon REBORN.
i also agree its a perfect trump in that we have an experienced channeler to lend Rand knoweldge, and i also think Rand will lose his ability to channel after he saves the World, and the souls will than leave. i think channeling is important to the soul of the dragon
Zaela Sedai: 2004-08-05
i was always a two-souler til RJ said it wasn't two souls in Rand's head but two personalities. I think that it is much more than two personalities however. I just don't think that he wants us to know yet. ....RAFO right? But LTT leaving Rand, I think will be a main part of the ending. LTT will be able to die in one way or another...and the whenever Rand dies the dragon's soul will be tied to the Horn again but maybe know as Rand al'Thor instead of LTT who knows. ;)
brother of Battles: 2004-08-05
I agree that LTT is in Rand's head, but only his personality. LTT and Rand have the same soul, so there can't be two souls. I think, in some way or another, LTT's personality was communicated into Rand somehow. Remember in tSR, when Lanfear visits Rand in the Stone of Tear. She was talking about power and glory. Rand cut her off by saying something like, "you were always more in love with power Meirim" or whatever her real name was. No where in the histories is Lanfear's real name recorded and that is mentioned several times through the beginning of the series( I am sorry, I can't provide quotes at the moment since I am at work and don't have the books handy). That same insident Lanfear even looks surprised and asked something like "How much do you remember LTT?" So, if LTT really isn't there, how in the blue grass did Rand know Lanfear's real name? And get the names and events that he talks about so correctly. Another instance is when Sammual talked to Rand about a truce with the use of the "possesed" guy. Rand talked about a battle that happened between LTT and him. I don't see how Rand could know all that stuff if it isn't LTT in his head and instead Rand just becoming Crazy.
Saldean Farm Boy: 2004-08-06
Whether there are one or two souls in Rand's body the fact that the Lews Therin "part" of him knows things no one living should. The LT "part" know details about the forsaken that are in no book. It knows things about the power that someone who has been channleing for only a few years couldn't know. The first time Rand entered the dream world in the flesh this "part" of him tried to take over to the point of changing Rand's features, the changes that were described matched the description of Lewis Therin dead on.
I do not see how a created personality could have all of this knowlege. When souls are reborn they do not have knowlege of past lives. We have proof of this from some one tied to the horn. So how could the LT "part" just be a created personality with all of this knowlege. In my opinion the only way is for there to actually be another person in there.
Tamin: 2004-08-06
It's obvious that the taint ties into this. Two personalities in one soul, and somehow memories are leaking through. I think that LTT is a taint induced personality, and the mad LTT personality has access to Rand's blocked off memories, perhaps because the taint on saidin has weakened the barrier between Rand and the memories of his past lives.
Callandor: 2004-08-06
**The first time Rand entered the dream world in the flesh this "part" of him tried to take over to the point of changing Rand's features, the changes that were described matched the description of Lewis Therin dead on.**
To nitpick, Rand's first time into Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh is in TDR, not TFOH, and he wasn't taken over or attempted at it.
**Whether there are one or two souls in Rand's body the fact that the Lews Therin "part" of him knows things no one living should.**
No.
Rand has one soul. There is not another.
**It's obvious that the taint ties into this.**
Exactly. There is a direct correlation between an increase in Rand's channeling over time, bringing in more Taint, and the increase of the presence of LTT.
snakes-n-foxes: 2004-08-09
I have always had one problem with the theory of the taint breaking down the barriers between souls....many many more men should have come to know how to channel (if you go by the theory that channeling is linked to the soul), through the voices in their heads.
Of course there is the debate of whether or not anyone bar the hero's are reborn, but seeing as the world is cyclical, I would think every soul is reborn, just they aren't born for specific purposes like the hero's of the horn.
BTW...has anyone EVER figured out how the horn was made, and how the hero's were bound to it ? Now there'd be a theory !
Saldean Farm Boy: 2004-08-09
I am not saying that there are more than one souls in the body, I am just stating the fact that the "personality" we reconize as Lewis Therin knows things that a made up person could not know. Several times Rand has stated that he barely managed to grasp sadin before LT and I don't have the book with me to quote, but LT did try at least once to take over rand in the dream world.
If you wanted to look at it another way you could take the above argument that the taint has broken down the barrier ( which I think would help explain what I have stated ) and state all the same examples to show that the use of the power itself awakened LT.
Frenzy: 2004-08-09
For everyone who wants some background on the soul debate, Goldeneyes compiled it and it's in the Chronicles section. link: http://www.theoryland.com/chronicles.php? user=golden&page=a
It was compiled before Winter's Heart, so it lacks the evidence Slayer presents in WH and CoT.
Callandor: 2004-08-09
**I have always had one problem with the theory of the taint breaking down the barriers between souls....many many more men should have come to know how to channel (if you go by the theory that channeling is linked to the soul), through the voices in their heads.**
What do you mean? A learner does not get effected by the taint (RJ said, plus common examples from the book), so only wilders have the problem.
Over 3000+ years, it seems a lot, but all totalled I would put it at about 200 wilders. Not all of them become remarked upon. Some of them are gentled by the Tower. And some of them do hear voices, like Cadsuane said.
talera: 2004-08-09
I've always believed it is really LTT in Rand's head. There are too many examples of knowledge Rand should not have had eg. "spinning and knotting a web" rather than "weaving a ward and tying it off" and too many other examples to list.
However I don't think LTT is actually "alive". He is aware, certainly. Perhaps some aspect of him is there, his personality and knowledge, but I think that is becuase LTT's and Rand's soul are one and the same, not because LTT's soul is trapped in Rand's head.
Saldean Farm Boy said -
"When souls are reborn they do not have knowlege of past lives."
Normally, that's true. But how many examples do we have of conflicting evidence? Birgitte, ripped out of the Wheel, retains her memories.Mat, and his memories of being other men.
Interestingly, these exceptions to the rule all involve the Heroes of the Horn. If LTT is bound in a way similar to the Heroes, it is reasonable to assume he is another exception to the rule, thereby giving Rand the skills and knowledge necessary for the Dragon Reborn.
Callandor: 2004-08-10
**Saldean Farm Boy said -
"When souls are reborn they do not have knowlege of past lives."
Normally, that's true. But how many examples do we have of conflicting evidence? Birgitte, ripped out of the Wheel, retains her memories.Mat, and his memories of being other men.
Interestingly, these exceptions to the rule all involve the Heroes of the Horn. If LTT is bound in a way similar to the Heroes, it is reasonable to assume he is another exception to the rule, thereby giving Rand the skills and knowledge necessary for the Dragon Reborn.**
Birgitte specifically mentions how in her normal reincarnations she, for her entire life, does not know that she is Hero. Speical case that she has her memories for this time.
1. Mat is not a Hero as far as we know ;) (not saying he most likely isn't or will be, but you cannot say he is since we don't know for sure).
2. Mat's memories are not his own or of his ancestors. They were implanted by the Eelfinn from other men's lives.
3. Mat does have a unique experience remembering what is almost certainly a past life, once being Healed of the Shadar Logoth dagger.
Rand having the memories of Lews Therin's life is not a miraculous Hero of the Horn gift. He didn't have them when he was growing up, and not before he started to channel heavily. Cannot seem to mention this enough, but there is a direct, and very strong, correlation between an increase in Rand's channeling, and the start of and then increase in Lews Therin's memories, knowledge, and presence in Rand's mind. Quite likely the taint is the reason.
a dragonburned fool: 2004-08-12
It is an interesting hypothesis, Danger. I like it not only because I allways disliked the theories stating that LTT is Rand's construct or madness. I allways believed that LTT's personality in Rand's head is not created by Rand's personality, that the both personalities are equal in rank and independent of each other. I tend to think, it's the taint's corroding the barriers, that caused the possibility for LTT's appearance, and it is not very compatible with danger's theory, but nevertheless I like it. I like it, because it focuses on the problem, what happened to LTT's personality, and I believe it's to be very important for the whole many-discussed topic.
The idea that LTT trapped himself and is therefore not dead enough yet, is valueable because it doesn't neglect the question, what means a death for a personality. Normally after death a personality is no more active. Heroes of the Horn have the full memories from those personalities, but the Heroes are not bunches of personalities, they are singular personalities with many memories. Birgitte has never any communication with "Marion", "Joanna" etc., she is never taking the side of any one of her past personalities against any other, all her past personalities are inactive, are past. I.e. normal death means also making the corresponding personality to be past and no more presence or future. Forsaken when they die, don't lose their personality and in the new body they have the old personality. They really die, but their personality doesn't become ultimate past. So in the case of the Forsaken not everything that the death must make is done. The body dies completely, the thread... it's difficult to say what exactly happens with the thread in this case, but it could also die completely, but the personality is not death yet. The Forsakens have not complete death, and nevertheless it's real death.
What I'm speaking about here is, that death is more complicite process then dying in the world. Death of the body is only one phase of the death. The shutting down of the personality, the termination of it, is another phase. Forsakens complete body-death, but don't complete personality-termination. Greaymen and victims of Machin Shin and Draghkars, from the other side, have the personality-termination, but not the body-death. Both are death, both are really death, but that are different things. In normal death they are allways together, but very special circumstances (DO's recycling of Forsaken, Draghkar's kiss, Machin Shin's touch, the process of making a grayman) can do the one process without doing the another.
LTT could do something like that. He could die bodily, but prevent the termination of the personality. So LTT is not fulfilled ALL the conditions to be completely dead for Pattern's PoV. That could be that trapping-himself. LTT failed to shut down his personality properly during his death. That means that in some sense LTT's death is yet to be finished.
About Callandor's arguments: We already had a long and hot discussion with Callandor before a month or two on this topic. Callandor has enough arguments to make it probable and enough counter-arguments to find explanations for the disadvantages of his position. I haven't found something yet, that could refute Callandor's position (I'm speaking here about "Callandor's" position, not because Callandor is the first and original defender of it, but because I with my misearable experience know it from the discussion agaionst Callandor, and know it in Callandor's variant and specifics ... and it became a habit for me to argue against Callandor when I touch this topic), it cannot be found anything making it impossible or unbelievable. Neither Callandor (or anybody else before him, so long I know) can refute the position, that LTT is real. All the arguments are actually different models of explanation of "how could eventually this work". There is no a single evidence from the books, that was yet not demonstrated to work equally convincing for the both sides.
The real advantages or dissadvantages of the both hypotheses ("LTT is real" vs "LTT is Rand's construct") is in the implications about the fundamental philosophy of WoT. If LTT is a construct of Rand's personality, the problems are psychological, the problems are private problems of sertain Rand al'Thor and nothing more, and all Rand has to do for to cope with the LTT-problem is a visit to psychoanalyst. It makes the storyline more understandable for a rationalistic mind, more simple, and ... much more boring. If Rand's problem is only psychology, then the whole splendid metaphysical background RJ developed, would be not needed, would be only idle secondary details. If LTT is nothing but Rand's madness, it oversimplifies the storyline and deprives it of the coherent interconnection of the aspects and factors, that IMO is the best creation of RJ in our believed series. If LTT is Rand's construct, the problem is to be solved independent of the main oppositios in the WoT metaphysics, and RJ's plotline would appear to be mechanical aggregation of motives having not to do with each other.
But if LTT is as real as Rand's personality, we have a problem that is unsolvable without some major metaphysical event, unsolvable without many layers (if not all) of reality involved. It would need the ballance and logical interaction of all factors and all dimensions of reality. I believe that it is one of the main things WoT is about: how everything depends of everything in all it's details. I believe that in Tarmon Gaidon all layers of reality must be concentated in the ones who fight it. In Tarmon Gaidon we must have in the both champions metaphysically as complete beings as possible, every important aspect of the metaphysics must be present. If it's not so, I would be definitely very dissapointed. :)
Stilicho: 2004-08-18
Putting aside the metaphysical discussion of one vs two souls for the moment, I agree that LTT is a distinct personality and not a construct of Rand's imagination or a symptom of madness. Danger makes very good points about LTT's knowledge that refutes any serious construct/madness theory. Likewise, Rand's recent illness, especially the spells of dizziness and sense of dissonance that hit him suggests to me that LTT may be coming unglued from Rand. I believe (without alot of evidence) that LTT will die at TG in fulfillment of prophecy (and probably Rand too)... The whole "twice and twice" runaround. LTT could be in the early stages of his eventual "emergence" which would occur at TG.
Saldean Farm Boy: 2004-08-19
I think a few people are debating the issue saying the same things using different words. I like to put things a simply as possible. So if I may be so bold.
Callanor please correct me if I misunderstand. You do not necessarily believe that LTT is Rands creation so much as it is his soul remembering a past personality. This being possible due to the taint or channeling eroding what ever barrier normaly separates personalities of the same soul.
I think that would explain how Rand some how "remembers" things about the forsaken that he should have no knowledge of. It would also help how he has defeated so many more experienced channlers.
Callandor: 2004-08-19
**Callanor please correct me if I misunderstand. You do not necessarily believe that LTT is Rands creation so much as it is his soul remembering a past personality.**
No, I believe Rand has memories from his past life entering into his mind due to the break down of the barrier. LTT is a collection of these memories, and a dash of taint-induced madness, to create a seperate personality which due to the memories is dubbed Lews Therin. Rand created him, but from a true source.
**I think that would explain how Rand some how "remembers" things about the forsaken that he should have no knowledge of. It would also help how he has defeated so many more experienced channlers.**
Yes, when Rand suddenly creates a new weave (except for in the first two novels (and quite a bit of the third); that was Rand just being a wilder), it's a memory from Lews Therin.
Perfect example of this. The Lightning seeking weave. Lews Therin did this exact same weave in The Eye of the World, and Rand did it exactly as he did in TSR (after his time with Callandor).
Tamin: 2004-08-22
Dragonburned - Good points. But I don't think that the construct theory takes away from the story. Rand gets memories from his past life, and pays the price in direct proportion by harrasment from the LTT voice. All because of the massive amounts of tainted saidin he's channeled.
IkilledAsmodean: 2004-08-25
Third voice? Probably the soul's incarnation before Lews Therin. This is a general opinion, while many blak at this because, as it was said before, there can'tbe a third, because Lews is the Dragon, Rand, the Dragon Reborn (not countign Callandor's post, as it was said under different meaning).
Yet, Lews Therin was not the first, according to no lesser person than Sammeal, in his own thoughts in Lord of Chaos.
"Thoughts he had forced himself to dismiss were coming back. Al'Thor was not Lews Therin, but Al'Thor was Lews Therin's soul reborn, as Lews Therin himself had been the rebirth of that soul." (Chapter 6, Threads Woven of Shadow)
Clearly, the third Dragon personality does exist, or rather, did exist.
Aragorn: 2004-08-26
That is a very interesting quote about Lews talking about being trapped. I think that it could be possible that LTT seeing the world breaking and the damage he had done, attempted, using his power to preserve a part of himself. To possibly be around to help in the future. The first "trap". Then when a greater power Ie the creator spun out the dragons soul. This preservation was pulled along into the new dragons body. Ie the second trap. LTT may have had no idea about the whole reborn thing and failed to take into consideration his actions of preserving himself.
Than: 2004-08-26
um did what LTT did in the prologue of tEotW look like balefire to anyone else just askin i couldn't find a better place to ask
Tamin: 2004-08-26
It seems like balefire, but isn't. A couple reasons... 1. Nothing in LTT's POV to indicate him weaving balfire. 2. The *balefire* comes down from above, if I remember correctly, not from LTT, as would be the case with balefire.
All the evidence simply says that LTT overdosed in a big way on the OP. No big deal either way though, I suppose.
Callandor: 2004-08-26
**um did what LTT did in the prologue of tEotW look like balefire to anyone else just askin i couldn't find a better place to ask**
No, LTT did not balefire himself. He overdosed on saidin.
Think about it. If LTT balefired himself, why would a mountain be created from it? Why would ANYTHING be created from his death? Balefire of that magnitude (or any magnitude), doesn't carry a balefired persons actions forward; it burns them back. If it was balefire, LTT should've never even gone to where Dragonmount would be, but instead would've never left his palace or some other past destination.
Also, balefire doesn't come from the sky ;).
Illuvater01: 2004-08-27
I don't think so, I believe the blinding light that seared LTT and made Dragonmount came from the sky, not from him so it couldn't be balefire.
snakes-n-foxes: 2004-08-27
In reply to Callandor's question about my previous post..,what I mean is, most male wilders will die of the taint (I presume you agree with this), so everyone of them, having being effected by the taint, will have access to memories of the past (the taint/memory theory being directly opposed to this theory)- Meaning - they will all know how to chanell (if we all agree that channelling is tied to the soul)...so why then haven't more men known how to channel ?
I don't buy that only 200 men since the breaking have been wilders. Presumably they would be somewhat equivalent to the female percentage of wilders, of which there are many examples in this generation alone (and there would have been 150 generations since the breaking Ie 150 x 20years per generation)
Another problem with LTT being a 'construct' in Rands head is that IF the taint broke down the barriers...then ALL of LTT's memories would have been passed along, not just memories of when LTT was mad (which was a very short part of LTT's life - he already likely having lived a few hundred years...ie the 300 years or so of memories would have contained a vast amount of information and personality (for the construct) compared to the relatively short time it takes for a male to go mad...1-4 years ?)
Instead we have a personality that is definetly mad (like LTT's last years)
Also...If they were only memories as per the taint theory (and if rand created the LTT personality as a construct)...then Rand would put his own perspective/stamp into the creation of the 'LTT Persona'...ie the 'LTT persona' would be a mix of LTT memories/persona & Rand persona...but it's not...the LTT persona reacts in ways Rand would never react...the LTT persona shows a personality distinct from Rands personality...and the LTT persona consistently displays a personality consistent with LTT's last couple of years...not his 300 odd years previous.
NB...300 years is a guess...he was described as being in his middle years, but greying from worry.
Tamin: 2004-08-29
Other male wilders wouldn't have memories/personalities in their heads from past lives, simply because they havn't taken in enough of the taint, whereas Rand has been using angreal and sa'angreal.
As for the 'other one', the third personality/life memory that might be present in Rand's head... perhaps Rand has taken in enough of the taint to not only erode the barrier between his present memories and LTT memories, but also between LTT and the Dragon previous.
The construct personality that 'talks', isn't created by Rand. It is created by the taint, and it uses LTT memories. This seems like a sound explanation to me.
Callandor: 2004-08-30
**In reply to Callandor's question about my previous post..,what I mean is, most male wilders will die of the taint (I presume you agree with this), so everyone of them, having being effected by the taint, will have access to memories of the past (the taint/memory theory being directly opposed to this theory)- Meaning - they will all know how to chanell (if we all agree that channelling is tied to the soul)...so why then haven't more men known how to channel ?**
That's the part everyone seems to be confused on, and there is a very simple explanation.
Amount. Not one male channeler in the entire Third Age, has channeled as much tainted saidin as Rand has. Don't really even try to fight that stance; it's very evident (I argue that since TFOH, he had channeled more then any other in the Third Age; past then, it's assured).
Male wilders might eventually develop a personality like Rand. Might.
My stance with Rand is that he has been given memories from his past life, he knew he shouldn't know them, and subconsciously created a seperate personality; coupled with this, the amount of taint he had channeled before to work it's madness magic, as well as simple stress of being the Dragon Reborn (the supression of emotions).
With wilders, they simply do not take in enough of the taint to do the damage that has happened to Rand. They would, eventually, get memories from past lives, but where the marker is, is difficult to say, and I wouldn't even know where to begin to broach a guess. If a wilder goes long enough, or in some cases shot enough, they could develop voices as either a function of a inborn madness (hey, schitzos do exist ;)), a weak personality, or simply they flip out from taint madness.
**I don't buy that only 200 men since the breaking have been wilders. Presumably they would be somewhat equivalent to the female percentage of wilders, of which there are many examples in this generation alone (and there would have been 150 generations since the breaking Ie 150 x 20years per generation)**
Disagree. Look at men who proclaim themselves the Dragon Reborn. Up until TEoTW, there were few men who did that, and not all of them could channel.
In a better way, look at it by simple channeling spread. In the AoL, 3% of the population could channel. In the Third Age, thanks to RJ, only about 1% of the population can channel, and only .05% of that are male channelers. This includes wilders and learners. Wilder vs. learner numbers are extremely slanted to the learners. Closest we can see to figurally, is in the BWB, and they simply say "tiny number" (if anyone has a direct mention from the books, hey, all the better to know it, but I can't find it now).
Based on what wilders we have seen, compared to learners we have seen, I think it more then fair to say it is 1 in 10 (I actually favor more toward 1 in 20, if not 1 in 50, but I'm being generous). If numbers are similar between genders (if not worse for male channelers), then .005 of the population are wilders.
Now, for every wilder, only 1 in 5 live past their first contact with the Source.
So let's do the math:
1 in 10 - population
1 in 2 - men
1 in 10 - wilders
1 in 5 - survivors
Makes in so that 1 in 1000 men make it this far (for 1 in 20 it's 1 in 2000; for 1 in 50 it's 1 in 5000 -- this is more the one I favor).
Now, I would go into life expectancies, but eh.
Population wise, if anyone thinks Randland has our population is severely not paying attention. Worldwide, I would say there are at most 100,000,000 people there, and in Randland proper (the map given in every book) I'd say only about 25 million.
That's 100,000 world wide wilders (which really shows why I think the figure of 1 in 1000 is too generous), and in Randland, 25,000.
(With the other figures:
1 in 2000
Worldwide: 50,000 Randland: 12,500
1 in 5000
Worldwide: 20,000 Randland: 5,000
Still think population might be off, too.)
These wilders are even more handicapped.
**TITLE: The Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 21 - Listen to the Wind
Moiraine shook her head slowly. "Aes Sedai search for girls who can touch the True Source unguided just as assiduously as we search for men who can do so. It is not a desire to increase out numbers--or at least, not only that--nor is it a fear that those women will misuse the Power. *The rough control of the Power they may gain, if the Light shines on them, is rarely enough to do any great damage, especially since the actual touch of the Source is beyond their control without a teacher, and comes only randomly.* And, of course, they do not suffer the madness that drives men to evil or twisted things. We want to save their lives. The lives of those who never do manage any control at all."**
Look at Rand's control of the One Power in TEoTW till TDR; his control is pitiful (really TFOH, but TSR and TFOH are greater control).
You can see where even a male channeler to be a wilder and even START to channel, and to do so at a regular pace, becomes an extremely small part of the population.
Given that they don't simply recognize that they are a channeler, that they don't burn themselves out, kill themselves, or still themselves, or die by any other means, it's one heck of a filter to an elite number of people.
**Another problem with LTT being a 'construct' in Rands head is that IF the taint broke down the barriers... then ALL of LTT's memories would have been passed along, not just memories of when LTT was mad (which was a very short part of LTT's life - he already likely having lived a few hundred years...ie the 300 years or so of memories would have contained a vast amount of information and personality (for the construct) compared to the relatively short time it takes for a male to go mad...1-4 years ?)**
1. I've never said the barriers do not exist anymore. Never.
2. I have never said Rand has only the insane memories from Lews Therin's life.
The barriers are weakened. Think of holes in a cup. It has dropplets of water or the liquid that fall through. These droplets are the memories. More taint - more holes - more memories.
**Also...If they were only memories as per the taint theory (and if rand created the LTT personality as a construct)...then Rand would put his own perspective/stamp into the creation of the 'LTT Persona'...ie the 'LTT persona' would be a mix of LTT memories/persona & Rand persona...but it's not...the LTT persona reacts in ways Rand would never react...the LTT persona shows a personality distinct from Rands personality...and the LTT persona consistently displays a personality consistent with LTT's last couple of years...not his 300 odd years previous.**
Disagree entirely. Rand has his stamp on them. LTT is a resting pool for Rand's supressed emotions. Look at this:
**TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 25 - Bonds
In his room at The Counsel's Head, Rand sat on the bed with his legs folded and his back against the wall, playing the silver-mounted flute Thom Merrilin had given him so long ago. ... The tune was called 'Lament for the Long Night', and he had never heard it before in his life. Lews Therin had, though. It was like the skill at drawing. Rand thought that should frighten him, or make him angry, but he simply sat and played, while Lews Therin wept.**
LTT's voice constantly expresses sadness, laughter, fear, anger - precisely the emotions that Rand tries to avoid making contact with and needs to relearn.
For the reverse side, look at how Lews Therin can be anything but a true personality.
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 21 - To Shadar Logoth
Duty is heavier than a mountain, death lighter than a feather. Lews Therin had to have that from him—*memories passed both ways across that barrier, it seemed*—but it cut to the heart.**
Where would the memories go to? Lews Therin is DEAD. How is he supposed to gain new memories from Rand? How is he supposed to be aware of Rand's surroundings and what Rand encounters? A personality is defined as a summation of basically all memories and everything--basically, your personality is the history of your life.
LTT's live, is over. How is he supposed to acquire them?
Also, if Lews Therin is a real personality, why is it so that he disappears when Rand talks to Cadsuane? Sure, he could go into Rand's mind and lay dormant, but Rand could not do ~anything~ to bring him back until his resurfacing.
What makes this VERY interesting, is in the Cadsuane scene, it's the first time, in a truely long time, that Rand really looses his temper. It might be as simple as, Rand started to actually express his emotions himself, instead of pouring them into Lews Therin (he's an outlet really), and once he did that the voice went away. Once Rand got past this event, he went back to supressing everyting, and Lews Therin eventually reappeared.
Also follows the lines that Rand did not start hearing Lews Therin until he "became" the Dragon Reborn. By this I mean, the holding back of everything. Another interesting thing is that everytime Rand has an incident to drive himself to be harder, Lews Therin gets stronger (ex: Dumai's Wells, Far Madding).
Frenzy: 2004-08-31
There's a flaw in your arguements, Callandor.
you said, ***For the reverse side, look at how Lews Therin can be anything but a true personality.
TITLE: Lord of Chaos CHAPTER: 21 - To Shadar Logoth: Duty is heavier than a mountain, death lighter than a feather. Lews Therin had to have that from him—*memories passed both ways across that barrier, it seemed*—but it cut to the heart.**
Where would the memories go to? Lews Therin is DEAD. How is he supposed to gain new memories from Rand? How is he supposed to be aware of Rand's surroundings and what Rand encounters? A personality is defined as a summation of basically all memories and everything--basically, your personality is the history of your life.
LTT's live, is over. How is he supposed to acquire them? ***
If dead souls gather no new memories, then how does Birgitte do so?
The Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 52 - Need: "Perhaps I cannot sit by while evil fights," Birgitte said quietly. "Or perhaps *I simply hunger for the flesh again.* It has been long since we were born last. The Shadow rises again, Gaidal. It rises here. We must fight it. That is the reason we were bound to the Wheel."
WoT characters aren't limited by the real-life biology of needing a living fleshy brain to function.
Again, you wrote: ***Also, if Lews Therin is a real personality, why is it so that he disappears when Rand talks to Cadsuane? Sure, he could go into Rand's mind and lay dormant, but Rand could not do ~anything~ to bring him back until his resurfacing. ***
That arguement is backwards. If LTT is a construct of Rand's mind, then why can he not control it?
Callandor: 2004-08-31
Ah dear Frenzy, you chime in ;)
**If dead souls gather no new memories, then how does Birgitte do so?**
Forgive me if I gave that impression, I did not mean it.
Lews Therin is dead. Anyone wants to argue that, I will simply quote the entire Prologue to The Eye of the World.
However, he is reborn into Rand al'Thor. Rand al'Thor is the soul. Rand al'Thor is the one that contributes memories to the soul, just like in Birgitte's case.
Lews Therin's time to do so, is over, since he died. So how can Rand's memories drift over to Lews Therin's?
**That arguement is backwards. If LTT is a construct of Rand's mind, then why can he not control it?**
Who says he doesn't? ;) He does not recognize that Lews Therin is a fiction. He believes it to be a real voice in his head. Given his perspective on things, it is real; but only to him.
People with schizophrenia can believe they hear real things, even when no one else does. Only afterwards, when they realize they are not real, does healing being (think of AA; first step is admitting you have a problem).
Frenzy: 2004-08-31
ah, dear Callandor. Thanks for noticing. i'd make a comment about crossing swords with you, but the pun is too obvious and it'd probably be taken the wrong way, so i won't. ;)
***However, he is reborn into Rand al'Thor. Rand al'Thor is the soul. Rand al'Thor is the one that contributes memories to the soul, just like in Birgitte's case. Lews Therin's time to do so, is over, since he died. So how can Rand's memories drift over to Lews Therin's? **
Yes, Lews Therin is dead. But he's obviously gathering new memories. He's seeing what's going on, just as Rand is, and is commenting on events.
I see where the main difference lies between our two theories. You claim that the Taint has reactivated LTT's memories, giving Rand access to them, and Rand's created LTT as a construct to contain/explain that "new" source of data. I claim that the Taint has reactivated the last incarnation of the Dragon Soul (LTT), so now that past life is slowly growing in prominance. One soul, two personalities. A crude analogy would be Rogue & Carol Danvers, from the X-men: two personalities, one body.
Who says he doesn't? ;) He does not recognize that Lews Therin is a fiction. He believes it to be a real voice in his head. Given his perspective on things, it is real; but only to him.
You don't claim that the memories aren't real, that there is two souls in Rand. But you claim that LTT is a construct. My friend, that's such a fine hair to split... you're definitely a Theorylander. ~lol~
snakes-n-foxes: 2004-08-31
Actually Callandor, I would agree with much of what you said...IF...it weren't for the taint (actually, I really do agree with a lot of what you said, maybe because it almost seems a different of the same argument, but in any case, I still think the taint theory is flawed in this area).
Ie. Men die of the taint...Rand has channelled more taint than any other man ? ...Well you know, if we removed the Chodan Kahl (or however it's spelt) from this (seeing as it was used for the process of cleaning the taint, the effects on Rand may be arguable), then I would disagree with you.
Is your argument that 'If you channel one little bit of the taint, a rot sets in that festers until you die' ? (Perhaps it's like how Machin Sin started ?)
But if 'dieing of the taint' is related to how much taint you channel, and Rand has channelled many times more than any other male...then Rand should be dead, Dragon Reborn or not - he is still Randland human. Ie. based on the fact that Rand is still alive, and on how the taint kills...then Rand can't have channelled too much more than another other person.
By the way, very few wilders would want to be the dragon reborn...in fact, considering the stigma, most would want to keep it very very quiet (remember Rand initially wanted no one to know)...nice maths too, I like that :)
snakes-n-foxes: 2004-08-31
Oh...and based on how men die of the taint - having channelled roughly the same amount (perhaps some can take more of the taint than others, but I doubt it's too many times more)...then if the taint breaks down the barriers, then all male wilders should have had access to memories showing them how to channel.
Callandor: 2004-09-01
**Yes, Lews Therin is dead. But he's obviously gathering new memories. He's seeing what's going on, just as Rand is, and is commenting on events.**
Obviously? That's very debatable Frenzy, and you know it (~secret~ ;)), since it is not obvious if he is real or not. Him being aware of his surroundings can just as easily be proof for how Rand created him, and unconsciously controls him.
**You don't claim that the memories aren't real, that there is two souls in Rand. But you claim that LTT is a construct.**
I absolutely do not claim the memories are fake. I absolutely claim Rand created Lews Therin. :)
**My friend, that's such a fine hair to split... you're definitely a Theorylander. ~lol~**
Now I just have to get the flame routine down, but I could never do that to you Frenzy (I may be stupid, but not bloody dense!).
**seeing as it was used for the process of cleaning the taint, the effects on Rand may be arguable**
Not sure what you mean. Rand will not get better from the taint being destroyed. Everything it did will still be there; it just won't get worse.
**Is your argument that 'If you channel one little bit of the taint, a rot sets in that festers until you die' ? (Perhaps it's like how Machin Sin started ?)**
In a way, yes. But it only "rots" when you channel the taint. X amount of tainted saidin channeled would rot such and such amount. Once you stop channeling, more specifically drawing in the taint, then the "rot" stops.
**But if 'dieing of the taint' is related to how much taint you channel, and Rand has channelled many times more than any other male...then Rand should be dead, Dragon Reborn or not - he is still Randland human.**
Don't know. Could be that it is set by time. So that, once you pass a certain mark of amount of saidin taken in, it's similar to the wilder death, where it becomes inevitable that you will eventually rot and die after set amount of time.
**By the way, very few wilders would want to be the dragon reborn...in fact, considering the stigma, most would want to keep it very very quiet**
And some people think they are, or stand to gain from it. Greed coupled with channeling (or not)... ;) Do I need to bring up the Forsaken? :P