at's luck is Ta'varen
by Jack o Shadows: 2004-06-12 | 4 out of 10 (2 votes)
Okay folks, here it is, as suggested in the theory in which it is stated that Mat's luck is the result of the Lanfear's tampering.
My theory is Mat's luck is the result of his ta'ness. There won't be exact quotes (I'm sorry, I'm not good at quotes. I see the series as one big story not a series of books so I just tend to say what makes sense based on that. I see the entire pattern, not just single threads lol) But hopefully, the actual theory will be sound. If not it'll get shot down and flamed.
Point 1) His luck was apparent way before Tar Valon. Throughout his journey things happned that HAD to happen. If they had happened differently the good guys would loose. (See tGH when they go through the portal stones and see every possibility... We only see Rand's life(s) true but that includes Mat up to then atleast and in every one of them they lost so only the path they're on can possibally win) That takes luck. And it's Pre-Tar Valon, I'm pretty sure it's also Pre-Lanfear release.
Point 2) Mat is described like a rogue, as a gambler, fox, etc. These all pretty much invoke the same images when you think of a person. Mat's willingness to "roll the dice" is his dominant personality trait. Thus, when his Ta'ness comes to maturity (You can't just have instant ta'varen, where's the character deveolpment?) it takes the form of this trait in order to seem more natural. (He couldn't very well do the things he's done and still has to do if everything just bent to accomodate him for no reason. It'd freak people out.)
It's like Perrin, his Wolf Brother thing relates (not saying his Wolf Broness is directly related to Ta'ness so don't shoot me for that! lol) He's obviousley an "alpha male" as far as his pack goes, so his ta'ness goes with that making him a good leader to the point that he can't stop people from calling him Lord and following him.
Rand, well, Rand's dominant trait, personality wise and and character wise is his being the Dragon Reborn. So his ta'ness follows this. People expect him to have "powers" (not many people know the extent of what you can do with the power, look at Emonds Field at the begginging.) So it's okay for him to freak people out. This is just to illustrate that it's QUITE plausable to say that Mat's luck is a function of his ta'ness 'cos it shows hos the other ta's do the same...differantly...
Point 3) Somone said said in the other thread that Mat' luck isn't natural, it's ta' plus somthing. Ta'ness isn't natural. It's twisting the pattern.
Point 4) After Lanfear's visit ( in which she's obviousley tranna seduce him to the dark side, which he resists) he seriousley needs to get off of Tar Valon if he's gonna do the things he needs to do. Think of differant things would have been if he's stayed even an extra day!
Now, the Big Boss Lady had sealed the bridges to him and he couldnt' swim the river ('specially in his state!) And he did't have enough money to get off of Tar Valon, not enough to feed himself after that, not enough to stay in Caemlyn, not enough to get to Tear so damn fast an nto enough to stay in Tear. So, just in that bit, what would have been missed? Wouldn't have met Thom, wouldn't have met the Queen and seen hom besotted she was, woudnt' have heard that forsaken git talking about Elayne, wouldn't have gotten to tear in time to save them... The changes are too vast to contemplate. One day and we'd have ourselves a WHOLE differant story people. He needed the luck, and the Pattern provided.
Point 5) Mat's luck doesnt' just run to gambling, in fact, it doesn't work for alot of gambling. Take Cards, his luck works less on that, but, if chance was suspended he could draw all four aces (or the equivilent) 20 times in a row, cards are VERY random, atleast when they're being dealt. But there isn't a mention of this.
It's been said that the dice in his head are a function of the dice ter', but thats not really sensible when you take into account that they usually indicate things that have nothing to do with gambling. This shows that his luck is a result of his ta'ness (It does, I'm getting to it, be patient!).
Lets take for instance, you. If you started twisting the world to suit you, pushing you one way or another, making things happen, for no reason? You'd probably attribute it to luck, but what if it got extreme, like it has for Mat? Still just luck? Or would you begin to suspect somthing? The dice in Mat's head are just a manifestation of this twisting, a way of coping with it without going nuts. He's sensing the changes being made in the pattern (he can sense it. Like when he's playing with those fixed dice which land on sides that are impossible!)in a way which he understands.
I'm sorry, I have a headache (musics too loud). Thats all I can thinko f at the moment. Respond, and if I'll defend it lol. I'll probably think of more stuff later which I'll post. Thanks for reading :)
You cannot rate theories without first logging in. Please
log in.
1
Tamyrlin: 2004-09-03
So, if I understand correctly, you are saying that being Ta'veren accentuates natural talents. In other words, Mat already had a knack for luck that was amplified by being Ta'veren. Actually, I can't think of a reason I would disagree with that idea. The real question becomes, can you prove that he had a knack for luck before he became Ta'veren? In other words, does Ta'veren make of you, of anyone, what it wants, giving what it wants, or does the Wheel specifically use souls with talents that can be amplified by the Pattern?
2
Stilicho: 2004-09-03
Tamyrlin
Mat actually reminices at one point (after being healed at the WT) how he had always been lucky, but notes the large degree of difference in the magnitude of his luck after being healed from the taint of the Shadar Logoth dagger.
3
Chrono: 2004-09-03
I agree with your theory totally!
Sorry that I haven't put something complicated but I'm a noob and only do simple things!
4
Callandor: 2004-09-03
**And it's Pre-Tar Valon, I'm pretty sure it's also Pre-Lanfear release.**
Not pre-Lanfear. Rand travels via Portal Stone after Selene (Lanfear) disappears.
**The real question becomes, can you prove that he had a knack for luck before he became Ta'veren?**
Mat diced with a Merchant Guard a few years back, and lost. His father gave him a good talk to ;)
**TITLE: Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 30 - The First Toss
*He knew he was lucky. He could remember always being lucky. But somehow, ~his memories from Emond's Field did not show him as lucky as he had been since leaving~.* Certainly he had gotten away with a great deal, but he could remember also being caught in pranks he had been sure would succeed. His mother had always seemed to know what he was up to, and Nynaeve able to see through whatever defenses he put up. *~But it was not just since leaving the Two Rivers that he had become lucky.~ The luck had come once he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth.* He remembered playing at dice back home, with a sharp-eyed, skinny man who worked for a merchant come down from Baerlon to buy tabac. He remembered the strapping his father had given him, too, on learning Mat owed the man a silver mark and four pence.**
I'd like to point out two things.
1. RJ has said that no one is born ta'veren (IE: when you're two minutes old, you're not a ta'veren). He also said that Rand, Mat, and Perrin became ta'veren just before Moiraine and Lan came to the Two Rivers.
So, it makes it very interesting that Mat remembers being more lucky then before leaving the Two Rivers, right when he turned into a ta'veren.
2. Also that Mat attributes the luck to the Shadar Logoth dagger, which could very well act as a catalyst which accelerated his luck. But, if you look at it slightly differently, it is a ta'veren feat that he got the dagger anyway, so it's ta'veren way vs. ta'veren way ;).
5
Tamin: 2004-09-05
Perhaps I'm incorrect here, but I've always assumed that being ta'veren doesn't endow 'powers' and all that.
Mat's luck might very well be simple ta'veren twisting of chance, or it might be something else. In my opinion, Jordan doesn't intend for us to know quite yet.
Being Ta'veren is simply being a focus point for a web in the pattern, affecting everything else. I think that the point of debate on this topic is whether Mat's luck, Perrin's wolf abilities, and Rand's channeling are direct results of being Ta'veren.
That just doesn't feel quite right to me, personally.
6
Mitch: 2004-09-05
I agree with Stilicho, and the quote from The Dragon Reborn is below, Chapter: The First Toss.
"He knew he was lucky. He could always remember being lucky. But somehow, him memories from Emond's Field did not show him as lucky as he had been since leaving...But it was not just since leaving the Two Rivers that he had become lucky. The luck had come once he took the dagger from Shaddar Logoth."
This is from Matt's POV, and shows that his luck is either a direct result of his link to the dagger or it has been enhanced by it.
7
snakes-n-foxes: 2004-09-06
I like the idea that Ta'veren augments peoples natural talents...although I'd then have to ask...what did Ta'veren do for Rands natural talents ? The Dragon was already amongst the most powerful users the OP ever. And Perrin ? Well, he doesn't seem anymore wolfbrother than Elyas, but perhaps the wolves can sense perrin's Ta'vereness like they can sense 'shadowkiller' about Rand.
Anyway, in reply to Jack O Shadows points...
1) I personally wouldn't think that my being killed nearly half a dozen times, was luck, and I'm fairly sure Mat doesn't think so either. But you could argue that anything is luck...eg being dumped by woman, because it makes you a better person for the next woman in your life...doesn't feel particularly lucky though being dumped though, does it. Same for being almost killed.
2) Actually, you can have instant Ta'veren...the definition is 'the first twisting of the pattern that draws other threads in, then others again...until possibly the whole pattern is drawn in. You may only be able to see that first twisting in hindsight, but that first twisting is Ta'veren (info from Loial in TGH)
***He couldn't very well do the things he's done and still has to do if everything just bent to accomodate him for no reason. It'd freak people out.***
Errm...that's exactly why his luck is such a great subject...it's been freaky since TV.
***It's like Perrin, his Wolf Brother thing relates (not saying his Wolf Broness is directly related to Ta'ness so don't shoot me for that! lol) He's obviousley an "alpha male" as far as his pack goes, so his ta'ness goes with that making him a good leader to the point that he can't stop people from calling him Lord and following him***
Perhaps. According to the definition of Ta'veren, you do not have to be a good leader to be Ta'veren. I think I had this discussion with Callandor, about the effect of a persons personality (&leadership ability) on the size of Ta'veren that Rand etc can be.
***Rand, well, Rand's dominant trait, personality wise and and character wise is his being the Dragon Reborn. So his ta'ness follows this... This is just to illustrate that it's QUITE plausable to say that Mat's luck is a function of his ta'ness 'cos it shows hos the other ta's do the same...differantly... ***
Rand's ability to channel is linked to his soul, not to Ta'vereness. He was born able to channel at birth, but he was not born Ta'veren.
***Point 3) Somone said said in the other thread that Mat' luck isn't natural, it's ta' plus somthing. Ta'ness isn't natural. It's twisting the pattern***
3) No other known Ta'veren has an obvious 'focus of luck' like Mat's. In regards to pattern twisting - there is also a quote about the pattern being made up of the threads of lives...I don't think dice are alive.
***Point 4) He needed the luck, and the Pattern provided***
The pattern provides...but in this case the pattern provided much much much more than needed.
***Point 5) Mat's luck...Take Cards, his luck works less on that, but, if chance was suspended he could draw all four aces (or the equivilent) 20 times in a row, cards are VERY random, atleast when they're being dealt. But there isn't a mention of this***
Cards in fact, aren't as purely random as say tossing a coin, or rolling a dice. If his luck was a type of 'suspension of pure chance', then his luck should work less with cards...which is what happens.
***The dice in Mat's head are just a manifestation of this twisting, a way of coping with it without going nuts. He's sensing the changes being made in the pattern (he can sense it. Like when he's playing with those fixed dice which land on sides that are impossible!)in a way which he understands***
Now this makes a lot of sense...except, you are saying that Mat can feel the twisting, but Perrin and Rand can't ?
8
Great Lord of the Dark: 2004-09-07
Since Mat's memories aren't so great because of the dagger and the healing, could we not say that his idea of when his luck started could be off by a significant amount? Say, from Winternight to the time of his healing? That could mean that his luck started getting better at a time diffrenet than what he remembers.
9
Callandor: 2004-09-07
**1) I personally wouldn't think that my being killed nearly half a dozen times, was luck, and I'm fairly sure Mat doesn't think so either.**
It's surviving that Mat attributes to luck. Heck, if you are attacked, totally surprised, by two theives who are after you, you'd attribute it to luck if you made it out of there (unless you were not alone, or were a channeler).
**3) No other known Ta'veren has an obvious 'focus of luck' like Mat's. In regards to pattern twisting - there is also a quote about the pattern being made up of the threads of lives...I don't think dice are alive.**
Not true. Rand has had the "focus of luck" as you put it; you differ with it, only because Mat has had it occur more then Rand.
**Cards in fact, aren't as purely random as say tossing a coin, or rolling a dice. If his luck was a type of 'suspension of pure chance', then his luck should work less with cards...which is what happens.**
Dear me, I hear implications of a certain object....
**Since Mat's memories aren't so great because of the dagger and the healing, could we not say that his idea of when his luck started could be off by a significant amount? Say, from Winternight to the time of his healing?**
Be cynical if you wish GLotD; Mat is sure of himself, and being just from his Healing it says a lot.
Plus, citing that his memories could've been improved, isn't necessary. He remembers a specific event where his luck was not as good as it is at that present time. From then to the then present, few major things occured (main thing: No Lanfear visit!). Mat personally assumes one thing (the dagger), and he could very well be correct; however, it could also be only a catalyst to what was already there, after his remembered event of being "less lucky" -- IE: turned ta'veren.
10
Oatman: 2004-09-08
I've posted this in other theories and I'll post it again:
My understanding of Ta'Veren is that the pattern supply's them with what they need to complete a task that the pattern has preset for them to do. In Mat's case he not only needed money to to escape from Tar Valon (btw he needed a hell of a lot to convince the ships captain to allow him to stay on/pay for food) but he also needed to build up his reputation of being lucky to attract and keep his army (notice how some some of his soldiers left after his extended absence?) The point is, Mat needs the luck to get the money he needs to pay for his army as well as to maintain a reputation which attracts men into his army.
Also, at the same time Mat started drastically altering chance with his luck, Perrin was starting to develop his leadership skills/ power to change peoples opinions, and Rand had started running around causing random marriages etc. Thats my 2 cents, im totally behind this theory. The most simple explaination is usually the most correct.
11
snakes-n-foxes: 2004-09-08
The pattern provides Ta'veren in odd and varied ways (eg Rand's Ta'veren luck). There is nothing to say that, in order to meet Mat's need to escape TV (now here I integrate the two other 'mats luck' theories) the pattern didn't have Lanfear start to use the dice ter'angreal on Mat and have someone interrupt Lanfear.... or... the pattern used the dagger to enhance mat's inborn luck.
In either of these ways, the pattern is still providing for this need. You My point though is : the 'need' Mat had at TV, and any subsequent ones from then on, could be used to argue any of the 3 different Mat's luck theories...because the pattern could have used any of the three ways to achieve this end.
Perrin's leadership is not a power. Leadership ability is all in the mind, voice and body of a person (ie their personality). There is no suggestion anywhere in the books that in this world, the pattern will, without the consent of the person, forcefully change their personality (which is what being given a power implies). Having people decide to follow him though...that can be pure Ta'veren, Ala Hawkwing.
On the subject of Mat needing to be lucky to lead Armies...even if Mat won every throw at dice, if he didn't win battles, the soldiers would leave.
12
Damer: 2004-09-08
Everybody is saying that Matt's luck is not caused by ta'veran because Perrin and Rand dont display the same kind of luck. I disagree with this, i think that if either perrin or rand gambled like matt they would also nearly always win. I think that Jordan shows us their luck in different ways, like the fact that rand was able to defeat a blademaster in book two with barely any practice. Because the blademaster slipped.
13
Callandor: 2004-09-08
** the pattern didn't have Lanfear start to use the dice ter'angreal on Mat and have someone interrupt Lanfear.... or... the pattern used the dagger to enhance mat's inborn luck.**
The dice ter'angreal is designed for channelers to use.
1. We have no reference to a ter'angreal being channeled through to set the weave onto a non-channeler.
2. We have no reference to said weave being permanent after an interupted use.
3. Since the ter'angreal was studied, and by studied it means utilized and made to function (IE: the One Power), that after the experiments are over, the luck stops. Continuous channeling is required to make it work.
**There is no suggestion anywhere in the books that in this world, the pattern will, without the consent of the person, forcefully change their personality (which is what being given a power implies).**
Uhh... Rand al'Thor, Perrin Aybara, Matrim Cauthon.
~All~ have had their personalities changed to varrying degrees. Most striking is of course Rand.
**On the subject of Mat needing to be lucky to lead Armies...even if Mat won every throw at dice, if he didn't win battles, the soldiers would leave.**
??
So his luck at battles, which feeds of randomness and change, as said by Mat, which is exactly how his luck works at dice, is not what keeps his soliders following him?
14
a dragonburned fool: 2004-09-09
I see no reasons for Callandor to be made of cuendillar, because cuendillar doesn't forke a balefire beam, but just survive it, while the beam passes through (as happened in Tanchico palace with the cuendillar figurines: they survived, the box collecting them vanished, and the beam went it's way further).
The same reason will make the #4 less acceptible. For a balefire to fork, something must be done to it, it's not enought for Callandor just to resist, but an active counterstrike against the balefire is needed.
Against #2: The balefire is destructable exactly for the Pattern. They stopped to use in in the War of Shadow, because it could inflich to serious damage to the whole Pattern. Actually it is direct weapon against the Pattern itself. So the Pattern would be not the something that could resist. Also when Pattern does something it never makes it via a just-miracle, but allways uses something that could really happen, but would be less probable. So the Pattern-intervence feature would still need explanation of exactly-how.
Against #3: If TP was uncompatible with OP it would rather create explosion or at least the balefire weave would be damaged. But it still remained balefire after the Callandor, it only changed the direction and forked. Too smooth result for a meeting of two incompatible forces.
Frenzy's #5 looks fairly possible.
Another possibilities:
#6 The huge concentration and intensity of One Power could have consequences similar to huge concentration of energy/mass in the relativist theory in physics, and to so change the spatial structure. Balefire propagates in linear manner using the existing space, so the OP concentration in Callandor could change the space there in two lines, that the balefire used "thinking" that it is the same straightforward direction.
#7. Rand made some mind-trick to the space there, causing the balefire to "think" it is still propagating straightforward, but actually...
#8. Mind control on the TAR proper of Rand was so strong, that it changed the balefire to a beam of some kind of another fire, working under another laws.
15
Oatman: 2004-09-09
I never claimed Ta'veren made Perrin a good leader, I meant that people listen to Perrin and are more likely to do what he says than they are to do what anyone else in the series says. I dont have the exact quote but when he is rallying all of Two Rivers into Emonds Field, one of the Aes Sedai comments on how the farmers weren't prepared to move for anyone or any reason, yet perrin comes along and hey presto they see the good reason in gathering together to defend against the trollocs. This is also shown when Alliandre swears fealty to him. The pattern dosnt make him a good leader, but it places him in a position where he can utilize his leadership skills.
Mat dosnt need his luck to win battles, he has his memories for that. But his lucky reputation attracts people into his army. As with Perrin, the pattern didnt make him a good general, however through the luck it provided him it placed him in a position where soldiers want to join his army for his reputation as a lucky man, and from there he can utilize his natural ability to lead an army. His luck in gambling is so that he can get the large amounts of money he needs to get out of the various situations he gets himself in. He comments various times in the books that his luck runs in streaks. For those that argue that he dosnt need all of the money he earns, even if he dosnt spend it, it makes it easier to bribe people if they see a large amount of gold, because there is always the possibility of more. The only other feasable explanation is the dagger one, because I simply refuse to believe that Lanfear would or even could make Mat lucky, because the idea is absolutely ridiculous.
16
snakes-n-foxes: 2004-09-09
Oatman, I completely agree with your first paragraph, and the first half of your second paragraph.
Callandor
**Rand al'Thor, Perrin Aybara, Matrim Cauthon...~All~ have had their personalities changed to varrying degrees. Most striking is of course Rand.**
Of course they did, however what I was talking about is a direct change to their personality. All the changes to Rand etc's personality are through experience with their environment (just like normal people...it's only their environment that isn't normal)
Anyway, the point is moot, as oatman says he didn't mean perrin's leadership ability was a power.
**So his luck at battles, which feeds of randomness and change, as said by Mat, which is exactly how his luck works at dice, is not what keeps his soliders following him?**
Not the point I was making, as I agree with you on your point. It was said/implied that his luck at dice kept the soldiers with him. This of course isn't truly the case, as per my previous post.
17
snakes-n-foxes: 2004-09-09
Gah (wish I could edit)
Re Rand etc personality change...of course the taint has effected rand, and the wolfbrotherness Perrin...however Rand's going mad is a natural part of randland - being an inborn ability, as is wolfbrotherness... I was replying to Perrin's good leadership being referred to as a 'Power' which implies a sudden suplimentary ability to any natural ability...ie a direct forced change on someone.
A direct forced change is not the same as a personality change due to your environment in which you react to your environment and adjust your personality yourself.
It's a matter of choice.
18
Callandor: 2004-09-09
**Mat dosnt need his luck to win battles, he has his memories for that.**
His memories alone, do not give him victories. It sure as heck helps, but his luck is a great contribution to his victories.
**There is no suggestion anywhere in the books that in this world, the pattern will, without the consent of the person, forcefully change their personality (which is what being given a power implies).**
**Of course they did, however what I was talking about is a direct change to their personality. All the changes to Rand etc's personality are through experience with their environment (just like normal people...it's only their environment that isn't normal)**
Uhh, once again I'll state simple things.
1. No, the Pattern won't simply take Rand al'Thor, farmer, and then make him into a cold-blooded killer in 2 seconds.
2. You are practically saying the Pattern does not control the enviroment. I can't even begin to explain how wrong of a statement that is.
**Not the point I was making, as I agree with you on your point. It was said/implied that his luck at dice kept the soldiers with him. This of course isn't truly the case, as per my previous post.**
Are you trying to say Mat has two types of luck or something? One for dice, one for battles? Mat calls it his luck at dice (I believe it actually is just "luck" but I don't know where the quote is), which you even said yourself, is the same as his luck in battles. It's the same thing.
19
matoyak: 2004-09-12
one time i read a good theory about how the twisting of chance differs with each ta'veren that we know of at the moment.
Rand= changes chance all around him causing lots of stuff to happen. when he needs a treaty or something like that he gets it cause the pattern gives it to him.ect.
Perrin= makes everyone like him and want to follow him. twists things closer to him.
Mat= effects usually only him.
i would also argue that if Rand and Perrin gambled for long times and a lot then they would see the same chance twisting
20
fistandantilus: 2004-10-16
Everyone seems to think that Mats luck doesn't really begin until after the Healing. However, I have found a quote that may prove this wrong.
Title: The Great Hunt
Chapter 3 "Friends and Enemies" Pb pg 32
"What's the matter, Rand?" Mat asked. "You're as white as your shirt. Hey! Where did you get those clothes? You turning Shienaran? Maybe I'll buy myself a coat like that, and a fine shirt." **He shook his coat pocket, producing a clink of coins. "I seem to have luck with the dice. I can hardly touch them without winning."**
Now it seems to me that "can hardly touch them without winning" means a significantly higher amount of wins than losses. Now this is not as lucky as he was in Tar Valon, but there he had need of the money, this game was just for fun.
21
solomonrex: 2004-10-18
Yes, but getting the dagger was hardly lucky, right? And I haven't found the theory that explains why the dagger affects luck. Mat thinks the dagger did it, but RJ has often given his characters wrong ideas.
22
Jack o Shadows: 2004-11-04
Hmm. Finding the dagger being lucky... It is arguable that it was THE luckiest thing ever to happen to Mat. If he hadn't found (and taken) is he would never have gone to Tar'valon, never gone to Tear 'n' saved the Ungrateful Trio, never gone through the twisted door, never gone with Rand into the waste, never got the spear or memories, never lead men in battle, never have done ANYTHING, including meeting Tuon. The finding (and taking) of the dagger has saved lives and possibly the world (even if it has caused lots of crap.) Hell. It even led to the cleansing of the source. Seams like a lot of good coming from one random event.
And as for Mat thikning his luck stems from the dagger... lets face it. It's Mat. He's not the sharpest spear in the tree.
I wish I could remember the rest of the point I wanted to make.
23
Callandor: 2004-11-07
**And as for Mat thikning his luck stems from the dagger... lets face it. It's Mat. He's not the sharpest spear in the tree.**
Maybe and maybe not. But with something that happens to only one person, you'd go to them because they are your expert. You wouldn't go to a cheesemaker on advice what the symptoms of cancer are and their effects (at least I don't think so, unless the cheesemaker had/has cancer...). You'd go to a doctor or, your best bet, a cancer patient.
Mat is the only one to suffer from the effects of the dagger that hints at it increasing his luck (with Fain, the information hasn't come up yet; come on, Fain anyway is one hell of a lucky guy), and it is big enough for him to remark about it. I'd take his word over anybody's interpretation.
24
Sampson: 2004-11-08
I do not think Mat's luck is a direct result of him being ta'veren. I also disagree with the theories about Lanfear and the Dice Ter'angrel. I think his luck is the result of many different variables that helped influence and created the environment for Mat to have an unusual amount of luck.
I also would like to point out that luck or what one would define as luck is in the eye of the beholder and is not always thought of as luck until that “thread” has been completed and you can look back and single out what action or choice was made at a particular “crossroads”.
I believe Mat has said he was always lucky and that his father was lucky. The Shadar Logoth dagger, Mats “Old Blood” and yes to a certain extent him being a ta'veren. I would also tend to add his trips to the Aelfinns-Eelfiins also added to his “luck”.
I think the major stimuli that awoke his ability would be when they were leaving Two Rivers. The pattern started focusing and twisting on the three main characters, Rand (He channeled for the first time in healing Bela), Mat (speaking in the “Old Tongue” while fighting the trollocs.
Then the focus got tighter at Shadar Logoth, the boys were thinking that Mat was the one Moiraine was looking for. They were in an extremely dangerous and evil environment and they went for a sight see (hmm the pattern was weaving a little tight). They went on to meet Mordeth and get the dagger.
Most of the characters were separated. Perrin was forced into a situation where he would meet Elias and have to acknowledge his ability with the wolves. He was introduced to the white cloaks. He met and traveled with the Tinkers and first met Aram.
Rand, Mat & Thom first met Balye Doman, Rand Channeled again, and Mat started feeling the “taint” of Shadar Logoth. They meet a variety of Dark Friends and also met Thom's friend the tavern keeper (sorry forgot the name/books in storage).
I think that Shadar Logoth taint attached itself to a certain part of Mat's psyche and when the AS healed him, he became more aware of the “dice”. But the reason he went on such a “lucky” streak is because the pattern had woven so tight around him, and needed him to be in a particular place at certain times (i.e. to save the Illuminator in the barn and the rest you have pointed out).
So I tend to agree that Mat's luck can be attributed to the pattern, I think the gifts that he received (i.e. memories of battles, strategies and court behavior) make it look like Mat is lucky. Everybody else including Mat calls it luck, but it is really him being in the right place at the right time and having the correct data to make an educated gamble. This applies to everything with the exception of “chance” situations (i.e. rolling dice/ I do not think finding the guy in Tear was “Chance” he was meant to find him while getting Thom sick so he could meet the ThiefTaker). I say that he is just playing his part, the Aelfinn & Eelfinn both call him a gambler and trickster. Winning at Dice is just the patterns way of helping Mat get comfortable with his role and what he needs to accomplish while giving him confidence in himself (and lining his pockets with much needed coin).
25
MeroTZ: 2004-11-09
Ok, so Mat's a person who has had a lot of things happen to him:
He's ta'varen. He's been singled out by the Dark One, and pulled into a World of Dreams. He's spoken a language he'd never known, before he'd heard it spoken. He's been to a Tainted city, encountered an ancient evil, and carried a tainted dagger with some interesting known properties, anda slew of unknown properties. He's been to the blight, and the eye of the world. He blew the Horn of Valere. He's been to the White Tower, and been channeled at, into, and around by Aes Sedai. One of the Forsaken channeled at him. He's been to at least one alternate dimension, possibly two. He's been to an ancient city, filled with ter'angreal. He was hung by fox people from another dimension. He was killed by electric shock, and brought back to life by a weapon that destroys time. And he's good at dice.
Its apparent Mat is lucky, and has had many extraordinary things happen to him. It seems like a bad idea to attribute his luck to any one thing, or even group of things. By its very nature, luck seems to not have a cause.
If you asked why Mat won a game of dice, the answer would be that he was lucky. Luck is a cause, WITHOUT something causing it.
Still, if you do want to find something that caused his luck, Ta'varen is a good choice. It covers all possibilities if you word it right.
26
fistandantilus: 2004-11-10
Sampson, your entire reply just stated what you said you disagree with: Mat's luck is Ta'veren. The Pattern is weaved more closely to him and the other ta'veren than the average person. That is due to the fact that they are ta'veren. When he throws the weighted dice in Tear, he feels the pattern shift to suspend chance; that is ta'veren. People said that Hawkwing was lucky with the dice, also. Was that the pattern, or ta'veren? It amounts to the same thing. Mat's effect on the pattern, and the pattern's effect on him, is what makes him ta'veren. So if the pattern is causing Mat's luck, it is due to ta'veren influence.
27
snakes-n-foxes: 2006-06-15
A further thought re : The Pattern Provides & Mat's luck with cards/dice
If the Pattern Provides what is needful is all that matters, then Mat logically, should have the same luck at cards as he does at dice, shouldn’t he?
…after all…according to the argument ‘Mat needs the money’…then the objective of the pattern would not be ‘for Mat to gamble’…the Pattern’s objective would simply be ‘to provide Mat with money’…and so, logically, because the Patterns objective would be to provide Mat with money…the Pattern should provide Mat with the same amount of luck at cards as it would at dice (unless there is a specific rule about Ta’vereness that prevents this).
But it’s known fact that Mat’s luck with cards is less than his luck with dice.
28
snakes-n-foxes: 2006-06-15
Doh, posted under wrong theory, but does just as well in this theory as the other
