errin's Supposed Weaker Tavereness
by IkilledAsmodean: 2004-07-05 | Not yet rated
Perrin is played up to being the least of the three taveren. I beleive this will turn out to be false, and RJ is just letting us think this.
-One bit of evidence, circumstantial though it is, is that we have Mat's unwillingness to be taveren pushed down our throat book after book. So it hides the fact the he does a lot more with it than Perrin does (save for the Two Rivers escapade of Perrin's).
A: The most obvious peice of evidence is regarding Mat. His luck and his old blood are his main Taveren skills, and each flies out of control on a regular basis, and everytime he comes into contact wiht some sort of altering force (dagger, Aes Sedai, Finns), each seems to simply be upgraded.
B: Perrin has really gained what? His WOlfbrotherhood is seperate form his Taverenness, I think. In reality, I think his main skill is his mind. If you think about it, there are many many examples, quietly set out through the books, where-in Perrin is wiser, more logical, and in some ways smarter than more or less everyone else. Including at least two people considered among the most cunning (Rand and Pedron Niall).
-Perrin shies away from doing things for the most part, whereas Rand seeks them and Mat has them dropped into his lap. This seems carefully hidden, and quietly builds a basis for the weaker taveren theories.
A: Obviously, rand starts wars, seeks Forsaken, cleanses the taint, is the DR, etc.
B: Mat is the Hornsounder, fought the Gholam, wins battles, defeats every attack thrown his way form the getgo, and had severe contact wiht a great Shadow enemy, Shadar Logath.
C: Perrin has done what, exactly thus far? Fought Slayer, and that was later on. Most of what else he's done could seem just another example of humanity agaisnt humainty, and mostly below the Forsaken's notice. The only reason they really even know who he is is due to be one of the three Taveren.
-Perrin is not even fully in the game yet, so to speak. Yes, he's got loyal men, wolves, and al that, but more of his focus goes to Faile than anythign. He doesn't even have his head in fighting the battles for the world yet, at least, not completley.
A: He's focused too much on Faile, period. He shies away from the wolves a lot, and hasn't even really been present at major moments, save a few battles.
B: Rand even nearly begged him to take a command posiiton and Perrin wouldn't (just before agreeing to go handle Masema)
C: Logically, if it comes down to a closed battle, Perrin will sense danger before any of the others.
-He's been attacked the least, which aids these theories about his weaker nature, but its really only because he has attracted less attention from everyone, save the Whitecloaks. When he starts doing more things, he'll pick up more attention.
A: Again, once the Forsaken start to realize he is a threat, they'll come after him. Now that the Hounds have caught sight of him, I think they'll be more suspicious
B: The Shadow has little to no inclination about his Wolfbrotherhood, I beleive, yet, but may realize this if and when he encounters Slayer again.
-He's quietly become a powerful political figure, generally, wihtout trying.
A: He is married to the probable heir of Saldaea.
B: He is raising the ancient nation of Manatheron.
C: He has the (former) queen of Andor working for him.
D: When it comes down to it, Berelain rules Mayeye, and Perrin can get her to do as he wishes.
E: Perrin rules Ghealden.
As I hope to have proven, Perrin only seems to be weaker, and is in fact, equal to Mat, and possibly Rand in some ways.
You cannot rate theories without first logging in. Please
log in.
1
Tamyrlin: 2004-09-23
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
The three ta'veren are all different. i agree that Perrin isn't a weaker ta'veren. He is just not as flamboyant a ta'veren as Mat and Rand. Mat's ta'veren effect is like a horserace: fast-paced, breathtaking and a bit dangerous to those involved: especially him. Rand's ta'veren effect is like a storm: violent and unpredictable. Perrin's ta'veren effect is like working a forge: slow and methodical, from the ground up, building something strong enough to withstand time and use, and with enough inertia behind it to make it unstoppable.
2
jason wolfbrother: 2004-09-23
"B: The Shadow has little to no inclination about his Wolfbrotherhood, I beleive, yet, but may realize this if and when he encounters Slayer again."
I disagree. Ishamael, and by transmigration Moridin knows fully that Perrin is a wolfbrother.
EotW Ch. 27 Shelter from the Storm
"Perrin scrambled to his feet, raising the axe, but Ba'alzamon ignored the weapon, concentrating on the wolf, instead. Flames danced where his eyes should be. "Is this what you have to protect you? Well, I have faced this before. Many times before." "
I'm pretty sure Slayer knows as well, since he encountered Perrin in the Wolf Dream/TAR. Lanfear also encountered him there. so he is not an unknown, it is simply that so far he has (as you said) stayed below their radar. Even the Trolloc attacks in TSR was directed at Fain initially, and only Perrin by his presence. I agree Perrin is not a weaker ta'veren than Mat. Weaker than Rand most definitely, but I think Perrin and Mat are very close in ta'veren strength. they just manifest that strength in different ways.
3
snakes-n-foxes: 2004-09-24
I quite agree. I think it was in a post about Balwer that I said "Perrin may well become the most powerful ruler in the world after the last battle"
However, I do have some disputes with your theory.
***A: The most obvious peice of evidence is regarding Mat. His luck and his old blood are his main Taveren skills, and each flies out of control on a regular basis, and everytime he comes into contact wiht some sort of altering force (dagger, Aes Sedai, Finns), each seems to simply be upgraded.***
I'm not sure exactly what this was meant to point out...there is nothing known about Ta'veren to say that one Ta'veren effects the strength of another Ta'veren.
***In reality, I think his main skill is his mind***
I quite agree, although I would add that a person's mind does not make a person Ta'veren (however, I would think that, through a persons mind/personality etc, the size of their Ta'verenship is increased)
***A: He is married to the probable heir of Saldaea.
B: He is raising the ancient nation of Manatheron.
C: He has the (former) queen of Andor working for him.
D: When it comes down to it, Berelain rules Mayeye, and Perrin can get her to do as he wishes. (disputable, but oh well)
E: Perrin rules Ghealden.***
These are where I think you see Perin's Ta'vereness come to the fore.
Nice theory. I especially like your summary of - Perrin avoids, Rand seeks, and Mat has it dumped in his lap.
4
Zaela Sedai: 2004-09-24
I never thought he was weaker either. He's had a lot happen already, meeting Faile, saving the TR, becoming a wolfbrother, having people want to follow him, etc. It's just that, unlike Mat and Rand he accepts it more easily. HE doesn't want to, but he doesn't whine either. Something big is in store for him though, I think that much is obvious.
5
lurk: 2004-09-24
I agree with the fact that Perrin's tavereness is less obvious, but if we look at the reason why there are taveren. The wheel weaves them out to incite change.
It is obvious that change can be realised by creating chaos (Rand pretty much destroys everything that was held dear by most of randland),
or by facing unwelcome disturbances Matt has solved many problems randland had to face, like killing the leader of the shaido (forgot his name, culadin?),or providing the rebel aes sedai with a means to travel through hostile country to Tar Valon and yes they also used traveling).
Perrin changes the world by slowly creating a new powerhorse (comparable to Manetheren)to face the oncoming army of the dark one
6
Rand alThor15: 2004-09-24
I believe all three ta'varen are equal... but just act differently, and that is why it seems Perrin is the weakest, he takes his time, lays low, but when he wants something done, he does it and he does it well (book 5 and 6, when he saves the Two Rivers and when he rescues Rand). But i have a feeling that soon, Perrin will be someone whom the Forsaken will fear soon enough.
7
Jumai: 2004-09-24
Almost as an aside, in the early volumes, Lanfear had contact with all 3 ta'veren, offering them glory. They all ended up turning it down, but they also all ended up getting what she said they would get anyway, except Perrin.
Mat is not being used by Aes Sedai. Instead he's helping Rand. Lanfear's offer was to serve someone who would admit (s)he was using him, but would benefit them both. So far, Mat has all that...
Rand she tried to convince to become strong in the OP. We all know that certainly happened. She also said he could be a great leader and take command of te nations. He certainly is making a good start at it.
Perrin, if you remember, was shown himself with his axe, but as a great general and leader, governer of vast amounts of land, powerful warrior et al, an Artur Hawkwing type deal. IIRC he was shown with a lion-head helmet.
Foreshadowing anyone?
8
Herids student: 2004-09-24
It was stated in another theory that Perrin is a Builder. His main ta'verin strentgh is that what he makes, endures. He is very nearly unstoppable when he gets going too. He has always been my favorite charator in the book partly because he has the most depth to him. That depth of character and his ta'verin strength all but garuntee that he will be a major player soon, though perhaps not in any predictable fashion.
9
Callandor: 2004-09-24
***A: He is married to the probable heir of Saldaea.
B: He is raising the ancient nation of Manatheron.
C: He has the (former) queen of Andor working for him.
D: When it comes down to it, Berelain rules Mayeye, and Perrin can get her to do as he wishes. (disputable, but oh well)
E: Perrin rules Ghealden.***
B is not that true. Perrin isn't raising Manetheren, he's using it as a front. But to future politics, eh.
Berelain doesn't follow Perrin's orders, she tries to make them.
E is flat out wrong. Perrin does not rule Ghealdan. Alliandre rules; she just swore and oath of fealty to Perrin. But again, it's big for politics.
10
snakes-n-foxes: 2004-09-25
**B is not that true**
There's this part about 'the broken crown' that the book never goes further into than saying that it exists. Saldea is due north of the Two Rivers. It may not be currently true, but it seems a possibility that a nation may rise where once Manetheren stood. Certainly the spirit and knowledge of Manetheren has been raised where once it stood.
**Berelain doesn't follow Perrin's orders, she tries to make them.***
Yet she is following Perrin, is she not?
**E is flat out wrong. Perrin does not rule Ghealdan. Alliandre rules; she just swore and oath of fealty to Perrin. But again, it's big for politics.**
Pretty much semantics. Alliandre came to swear fealty because of why ?
11
a dragonburned fool: 2004-09-25
Strictly speaking, there are no "ta'veren skills" except Mat's luck with dice. Ta'verenness is not some specific skills but making the circumstances around the ta'veren happen in less probable manner, and making the ta'veren allways find what his destiny needs (not the ta'veren himself). Ta'veren makes the ta'veren meet important people, appear at important events, get out of them alive, ... and become important skills. Ta'veren is not the skills themselves, maybe the Perrin, Rand and Mat could get their skills also without the ta'verenness, but much less probable. Ta'verenness even didn't provide the way for the ta'veren to get the skill, it only maked it much more probable that the skill comes.
Only Mat's gambling luck can be direct ta'veren effect, because his luck is exaclty changing the laws of probability in Mat's favor, i.e. the same what the ta'veren makes in another aspects. And the dice ter'angreal that emulates ta'veren effect is described similar to Mat's gambling luck effects.
All other special skills of ta'verens are just skills, that these persons can have. For perrin these are skills that Perrin's soul, Perrin's genetics, Perrin's character and Perrin's biography made possible for him, and his ta'veren just made it more possible. Ta'veren cannot grant a skill that the person has no possibility to gain without the ta'veren. It's not about strongness and weakness of ta'veren, but only about the person, what exactly kind of skills one will have. Some have enough special skills, changing of the world and all symptoms assotiated with ta'veren, without being ta'veren at all (e.g. Egwene). Strong ta'veren is not equal to importance for the history. It's only technological thing for the Pattern processing.
And about the importance of Perrin's role, I agree. Especially with the quiet and unseen change as Perrin's specific against Rand's storm-like going through history, and Mat's sudden fast deeds.
12
Callandor: 2004-09-26
****Berelain doesn't follow Perrin's orders, she tries to make them.***
Yet she is following Perrin, is she not?**
On whose orders?
Perr... oops! No. Rand's orders.
**Pretty much semantics. Alliandre came to swear fealty because of why ?**
Uhh... Rand's offer of safety?
13
IkilledAsmodean: 2004-09-26
Callandor...my comment regarding Perrin raising Manatheron is purely speculation, and while not technically true, will prolly happen.
Observe.
Perrin says he's not going to grow a beard, lead his poeple, be a lord, be a general, use his axe, etc etc etc
And ends up doing them all. Well, he has said several times that he's NOT raising Manatheron. SO of course, he'll end up doing it, albeit inadvertantly or agaisnt his will.
E is true, because the WQueen is his leige lady, so for as logn as she is Queen, he holds the keys to Gheldan.
As far as Berlain, she's the one who ahs admitted that Perrin is one of the very few men who can make her listen to them.
14
Callandor: 2004-09-27
**And ends up doing them all. Well, he has said several times that he's NOT raising Manatheron. SO of course, he'll end up doing it, albeit inadvertantly or agaisnt his will.**
Did I say they were not going to come true? No. I said Perrin is not raising Manetheren. As in, he is not doing it FOR the raising of Manetheren; he was (key point, was) doing it as a front for safety.
**E is true, because the WQueen is his leige lady, so for as logn as she is Queen, he holds the keys to Gheldan.**
Has Perrin been crowned King of Ghealdan? No? Then guess who rules Ghealdan.
Perrin has the Queen's fealty, but he did not de-throne her, so she still rules.
15
Jumai: 2004-09-29
To those who keep saying Mat is the only one who directly (ab)uses his ta'verenness, this is a simple untruth. Rand does it whenever he has to make a descision and doesn't know up from down.
Examples:
Choosing the portal stone sign for Rhuidean (Mat flips, but Rand guesses it before Mat reveals which side of the coin is up).
Picking Dashiva for his honour gaurd (he doesn't trust Taim to pick him one, so he points in a random direction and "seems suprised" it's pointing at someone, picking osan'gar out of a few dozen people by random pointing is NOT chance).
These are the two biggest that come to mind. Perrin doesn't do it conciously, Mat is aware of it but prefers not to think about it, Rand uses it. I don't think it's unrealistic to expect Perrin to come out with a way of applying his ta'veren effect to his advantage.
16
a dragonburned fool: 2004-09-30
A thought came to me after reading Jumai's reply:
It's commonly supposed that only Mat has luck with dice as ability. But actually Mat is the only one of the three who play dice after becoming ta'veren. So Rand uses his luck at the Portal Stone in Tear and choosing Dashiva. And also when going to Riatin's and Damodred's camp, and to the Seafolk embassy. So, if Rand decided to play a game of dice, wouldn't it be something similar to Mat's luck? I think it would. And Perrin also just haven't played hazard games, but if he did...
The luck with dice would be rather common ability for every ta'veren. Rand and Perrin just don't use it until now.
17
Callandor: 2004-09-30
**So, if Rand decided to play a game of dice, wouldn't it be something similar to Mat's luck? I think it would.**
Rand hasn't used dice in a while, but others around him have had the exact same effects happen to them, as have happened to Mat. In TFOH (can't give the quote right now; out of searches), Rand is in Cairhien watching a river, and a Maiden comes up and tells him that she and the other Maidens were dicing and suddenly all their tosses were sixes. Every time.
18
ezaine: 2004-10-01
I always thought the Mat and Perrin's taverenness meant that they would have a special role to play at the end, and being a taveren doesn't imply luck, or only that the pattern will shape itself around them, but that the pattern will shape around to a purpose.
By the end events will shape so that Rand, Mat and Perrin form some type of trinity, (not that I'm trying to throw religious ideas into this, I'm not.)
And if you take a step back, who besides Rand has actally done more than Perrin.
19
solomonrex: 2004-10-18
There's no such thing as ta'veren skills, talents or strengths. This is all very silly. Ta'veren just means you're the center of a web, and Perrin's web is smaller than the other two while the leader of the 2 rivers because there aren't many people in the two rivers. Rand is of course, the largest ta'veren, because the whole freakin' pattern depends on him.
There is no strength in the pattern- you either are in a web or you're not and since you don't get to choose, you have no personal input like 'strength'. And you don't get superpowers, either (repeats argument for 1,000th time).
20
IkilledAsmodean: 2004-12-25
Perrin does rule Ghealden. If you don't think so, than you ought to go find out what a leige lord really is. If he tells Allindre to raise taxes, taxes get raised. He rules the country.
As for Berlaine and other examples of people attributing it all to Rand, well, look at it this way. What happens when Rand suddenly disappears or drops dead (which he's wont to do on occasion)? Perrin weilds the power because he's the one who gets turned to.
Andor will align with him, Mayene will fall under him, the Aiel will most likely allign wiht him, Saldea would align, Sheinar would align, and so on and so forth.
On another subject, the foreshadowing of Perrin as the great general and elader is I think an accurate one. He has all the makings of the elade,r though he hasn't used them much yet. He is cunning, patient, and has a habit of doing things people don't expect. He also has a force of will to be reckoned with, so much so that he actually beat the pull of Taveren for a long time and left Tear.
All it will take is the right time, and Perrin will rise to the status he's quietly built.
21
bigjellybeans: 2004-12-28
we all know that Rand is the strongest in terms of taveren. But between Matt and Perrin there are arguments for both. However the fact is that it takes all 3 of them to win in the last battle so the whole argument is essentially unimportant
22
damane: 2005-01-31
I'm sorry, but I really had to respond, and this thought has been running in my head since I read this post forever-ago:
ARE YOU INSANE?
Weaker ta'veren? Look at Mat! All he does is run around and save people. He's never had his own plotline until now, and now he's supposedly going to run off AGAIN to save Elayne or Egwene AGAIN like he did ten times before.
Perrin's had his own story thread, without ANY of the other "main" characters (Egwene, Nynaeve, Rand, Mat - I refuse to call Elayne main, since she only supports Rand, and does nothing directly for the Last Battle like the three ta'veren) since THE SHADOW RISING. Lord of Chaos, if you want to include a few brief meetings with Rand.
Since the beginning, Mat has always been haring off after others, and I'll agree that he has done more and WILL do more than Perrin - but HE'S NOT DOING IT. His skills, talents, and resources (a large and FAITHFUL army being the least of it) are only used to help the women. And, I might add, the women are NOT the people who will be fighting the Dark One! It's the three ta'veren! I strongly maintain that Mat ISN'T going to help Egwene or Elayne - Egwene has Gawyn who's supposed to meet up with her - and Elayne has a small army of people to save her. I mean, lord, why can't these people leave Mat alone to become Emperor?
So if you ask me, I think Perrin's got a lot more going on, and his path to being King of Saldaea is all but paved away for him.
23
Anubis: 2005-01-31
perrin didnt beat the pull of Taveren. He surrendered to it. The wheel wanted him to go to the Two Rivers and so he went.
24
IkilledAsmodean: 2005-07-16
Anubis....if you go to pages 295-300 in Chapter 18 of Shadow Rising (paperback), you will find a description of Perrin actually physically making an effort to remove himself from Rand's pull.
He did have to escape the Ta'veren pull to go.
And he was only in the Two Rivers for a few months when the pull caught up to him and forced him back out of the Two Rivers and back to Rand.
Simply enough...he did beat it for a little while.
25
JakOShadows: 2005-07-16
I do agree with the theory in general. But like it has been said, strength in being ta'veren is not really existant. It mostly just depends on where you are on how affect you have on the world. If you think about, they were always ta'veren but you didn't see it much in the two rivers before the left. Why do think that is? So the only Perrin seems weaker is becaues of where he is. I think he will be like the darkhorse candidate in an election. He will come as a bit of a surprise to the DO and forsaken when the events of the LB start taking place. But I do think the dark hound will affect him somehow.
26
Yaga Shura: 2005-07-17
"If you think about, they were always ta'veren but you didn't see it much in the two rivers before the left. Why do think that is?"
Actually, they only became ta'veren shortly before Moiraine arrived in the Two Rivers. RJ confirmed it in an interview (I can never find interview quotes. Sorry)
"He will come as a bit of a surprise to the DO and forsaken when the events of the LB start taking place."
No, I don't think he will. Remember the talking myrdraal that referred to the tripod? There isn't anyone other than Rand Mat and Perrin that could refer to. Plus, the three of them are all referenced in the Prophecies (see the header of CoT).
27
Anubis: 2005-07-17
Perrin is the Builder
Matt is the Preserver
Rand is the Destroyer
Matt fights to preserve the existing system. He fights as a mercenary, driving trollocs out of andor, rallying nobles, securing the crown of murundary, and neutralizing the seanchan.
Rand destroys all that is undesirable. He destroys Ishmael, the taint, the negative aspects of the feudal system, in the end he will destroy the Dark Ones influence in this world.
Perrin on the other hand is the builder. He is building something that will out last the last battle. He is taking the most chaotic nations in Randland, and slowly building them into a unique, powerfull, Manatherin like nation.
Perrins ta'veren ness will take longer to go into affect, but its affects will last much longer.
28
Callandor: 2005-07-17
**Plus, the three of them are all referenced in the Prophecies (see the header of CoT).**
Bad reference Yaga. It is not known that the right and left hands are Mat and Perrin. It could very well be, but it's not known.
Better to simply say that Mat was mentioned in them, so that surely means that Perrin has at least one about him ;)
29
Kantuna: 2005-07-18
"Perrin is the Builder
Matt is the Preserver
Rand is the Destroyer"
Creator and builder can mean the same thing.
So we would have, from the 3 ta'veren, 1 Creator, 1 "Preserver" and 1 Destroyer.
Wouldn't it be kind of cool if, after the last battle, Perrin turned into a new "Creator" and Rand became the new version of the DO (Maybe he goes mad or something.)Whcih would leave Mat to look after the rest of the world and "Preserve" it.
This is probably a load of Bull, but it's a strange coincidence that their is one Creator, one destroyer and one In-between (Humans.)
