1
Tamyrlin: 2004-09-24
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
Zader... uh, no this hasn't been done to death. i don't even know where to begin. i need an emoticon for utter disbelief. Then again, i still can't believe the mountain people have made out of the molehill of three little words uttered by Mazrim Taim, so...
Tamyrlin says a theory is a theory if it's argued adequately. Even if we disagree with it or think it's a steaming pile, so to speak. You have quotes, you've made deductions, you support your theory... i can hope this is just an exercise in sophistry, but in case it isn't i don't want to trample your ideas too badly. That's what the peanut gallery is for.
2
Anubis: 2004-09-24
this hurts my brain....
tylin died so that robert jordan could avoid a whole matt tylin DOTM love triangle of extreme lameness.
tylin explains her reasoning for not going after caridin.
rand will die. that is certain. rand still fits the DP
the DFs got to the warehouse because faolin and ispan were searching for the same place matt and party was and they happend to both find it on the same day. its called taveren look it up.
moridin knew where the party was because the head freaking servant was his freaking spy. its in the same chapter.... on the same page.... and the gholam had been stalking matt for quite some time...
we need submissions for most ludacrous theory ever...
3
SDog: 2004-09-24
"A line from the DP “Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still"
I'm pretty dang sure this is Rand, not Mat. The "prophecy" is written as a suggestion of what will happen if Rand falls for Lanfear.
As for Tylin suggesting Mat's ta'veren, I think Mat's reputation speaks for itself. After all, he almost never loses at gambling, his followers could speak volumes to his luck, and he hangs out with a lot of interesting people. Besides all of that, Tylin doesn't say outright that he is ta'veren, just that she's heard it.
I think you're going to need more actual evidence before anyone takes this theory seriously. How about some quotes showing Tylin looks just like Cyndane, or just about anything more that what you have.
4
Jumai: 2004-09-24
I don't see it. Lanfear wouldn't have let Mat tie her up and leave, if she still wanted him she woulda kept him, otherwise she woulda killed him.
Besides which, the whole dagger busisness with which she threatens Mat would be beneath Lanfear. She would have tried compulsion. And we don't get the medallion going cold with Tylin, ever.
5
Dorindha: 2004-09-24
You can explain it away as we know Elayne and Nynaeve have had several frank talks with Tylin (largely offscreen). It would make sense that she'd asked and they'd told about Mat.
6
Callandor: 2004-09-24
**A line from the DP “Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.”
So far the only ones to die and live again are Mat, Aginor, Balthamel, Ishy. Question about
Asmoden and Sammael but of them all only Mat and possibly Asmodean fit.**
Lews Therin was Lanfear's "old" lover. Rand, being Lews Therin reborn, was to be her "new" lover, until he spited her. Rand is prophecized to die, yet he still worked into her plans.
**How did the DF's get to the wharehouse just before Mat's party. AS DF controlled by Moggy, Gholam controlled by Sammael.**
Mat, Nynaeve, and Elayne reached the house before Moghedien's Black Ajah, and before Sammael's Darkfriends.
Wonder why a gholam was there, for either the house or the gateway?
**TITLE: Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 39 - Promises to Keep
Mat gathered patience; he hoped he could find enough. Maybe if he used both hands and both feet. "Gholam were created in the middle of the War of the Power, during the Age of Legends," he began from the beginning. Almost from the beginning of what Birgitte had told him. He turned, facing each group of women as he spoke. Burn him if he was going to let one bunch think they were more important. Or that he was bloody pleading with them. Especially since he was. "They were made to assassinate Aes Sedai. No other reason. To kill people who could channel. The One Power won't help you; the Power won't touch a gholam. *In fact, they can sense the ability to channel, if they're within, say, fifty paces of you. They can feel the power in you, too.* You won't know the gholam until it's too late. They look just like anybody else. On the outside. Inside.... Gholam have no bones; they can squeeze themselves under a door. And they're strong enough to rip a door off steel hinges with one hand." Or rip out a throat. Light, he should have let Nalesean stay in bed.**
The can sense One Power channelers, and usage of the Power.
Plus, as said before, Mat is Ta'veren. What else do you expect?
**Why kill Tylin after Mat leaves.**
As said, to avoid the Mat - Tylin - Tuon love triangle.
7
IkilledAsmodean: 2004-09-24
While there are similarities in the personalities of both Tylin and Lanfear (both like "masterful men", etc), this seems somewhat half thought out, no offence. For instance.
I apologize for not having quotes handy, but they can be found for the following.....
-Tylin did not just appear. Elyane knew of her before she ever went to the White Tower.
-There is at elast one reference to Tylin having Aes Sedai for longer than the Forsaken had been free.
-Where the blazes did Beslan come from?
-Wasn't there a reference to Tylin's parentage?
-Wouldn't "Tylin" have removed Mat's Ter Angreal at first chance?
-We don't meet Tylin until well before Cyndane appears, who is most likley Lanfear, and not so long after Lanfear and Moraine go through the door. There is no way she got out from death that quickly.
-Why in blazes would Lanfear set up shop in a place that Rand has nor eason whatsoever to go to?
-No way would Lanfear have worked so closely with Moridin/Isshy, and no way they'd be in that proximity wihtout being aware of each other.
-Where has any evidence been given that anyone can inhabit a body and then leave it, as your theory seems to suggest?
This is incorrect.
8
charliec: 2004-09-25
Not a chance! but it does raise an interesting question... how accurate are the Dark Prophecies? are we talking foretelling here? if so who by? were there Black Ajah with the Trollocs in Shienar? no indication of that.
Does it come from some variant of dreaming?
Any clues? speculations?
If it is as infallible as foretelling then the implication that her lover will 'serve her still' is a little interesting, but as it is maybe this line hints that this prophecy refers more to a possibility than a certainty.
9
SDog: 2004-09-25
"**Why kill Tylin after Mat leaves.**
As said, to avoid the Mat - Tylin - Tuon love triangle. "
Plus, why not? We need more good and dead people in this story. It adds some drama to have a sub-major character be killed offscreen.
10
ema: 2004-09-28
I would just like to say that Tylin is dead, and she's not coming back anytime soon!
11
Jiana: 2004-09-29
Aside from all of the great rebuttals I've read here, I have one more good (I hope) point to add. If Tylin were really Lanfear, why would she be deferring to Suroth when the Seanchan take over? Yes, Suroth seems to be a DF of pretty high status, but no matter how high she may stand, no Forsaken defers to a mere DF. One could argue that Lanfear did it for cover, but to what purpose? Also, Tylin knew that Mat was going to escape the city. If Lanfear had one of the three ta'veren in her clutches, do you think she would let him go willingly? The theory was presented well, but unfortunately, it's just not plausible.
12
Great Lord of the Dark: 2004-09-29
Zader, this is awesome. Not the Tylin thing, but your quote about Lanfear seeking a new lover.
It SHOULD mean Rand, and we know he will die and live again. But will he serve Lanfear in doing so? And if not, and we believe this prophecy will come true, then who is the new lover?
Mat sounds good to me. There are already several links between him and Lanfear, notably the possibility that she used the luck ter'angreal on him, and that almost loony theory that Mat has been used as a toll of the DO. Can't remember who came up with that one. Anyway, Mat could fit the bill here. But as with any good new theory, it may force reexamination of some accepted truths which are now contradicted. If you're keen on this idea, you'll have no trouble building it up.
Regarding Tylin, she is queen, and could learn anything she wanted to about Mat. Her connection to him was known by Madic, the head Servant of the Palace, who was killed by Moridin. Any connections to explain how anyone knew anything can be explained through Madic, or rumours circulating about Mat.
13
fistandantilus: 2004-09-29
I do not believe that Cyndane would have any purpose to hide herself as Tylin. However, for the sake of arguement:
Jiana, we do have an example of a forsaken deferring to a mere darkfriend for the purpose of cover. Moggy, as arrogant as she was made herself a servant to keep her identity a secret.
14
Zader: 2004-09-30
To say that Tylin was killed to avoid love triangle I find hard to understand, as this seems to be stock in trade of RJ's writing. This would seem to me to be more reason to keep Tylin alive, not to kill her.
If the gholam killed Tylin, why did it change its means of killing someone? Iirc people who were killed randomly by the gholam were drained of blood. Tylin was decapitated. I believe Tylin's death is connected to Herid Fel's death, and also Barthanes's death. I believe all three were killed by the same gholam, but I am not convinced it is the gholam that was controlled by Sammael. One gholam kills by draining blood and the other kills by dismembering people.
I would assume RJ has some reason for the difference in killing methods, as it seems puzzling to me,why a gholam would decapitate some one who is tied up and can do nothing to save themselves, and yet only drain the blood of someone caught in the street.
To answer some of IkilledAsmodean's questions
Yes Tylin is a “real ” person. This does not mean Lanfear/Cyndane could not pose as Tylin.
Moridin/Ishy has Lanfear/Cyndane mindtrapped so she could be made to do what he wants her to.
There is a quote in WH iirc Where Mat thinks about the servants making sure he can't leave the palace, because of Tylin's bad temper, and Mat being there to blunt it and not the servants themselves.
I am not suggesting Lanfear/Cyndane is inhabiting Tylin's body, but if you are impersonating someone, you have to keep impersonating them, because if you suddenly disappear, it raises to many questions.
If the person you are impersonating dies you are free to move on.
Some other questions answered as well.
IMO In fantasy, if you are going to write prophesies then you have to make them valid. The author is always writing from knowledge and presumably knows where he is going with the story. We as readers lack the knowledge and work from prediction based on limited information and understanding. A case in point iirc one of the names the wolves call Lanfear by, is MoonHunter, Mat is foretold to give up ½ the light of the world. I believe this relates to the DOTNM, but I am not 100% sure, and just because I believe it to be, does not make it so.
A lot of info can be explained by Madic, I agree. Timing wise though is not explained. Tylin is killed the same night Mat leaves. Why does the gholam leave it so long? Why attack Tylin and not Mat? Madic could not find out where the Kin, W/Finders, and supergirls were going to though so there were limits to what he could find out.
15
Jiana: 2004-09-30
Well, sure, Moghedien did it for cover, but she is a very different creature from Lanfear. Never known Lanfear to hide. Even when she and Asmodean were in the Waste, she pretty much retained her personality.
16
Callandor: 2004-09-30
**To say that Tylin was killed to avoid love triangle I find hard to understand, as this seems to be stock in trade of RJ's writing. This would seem to me to be more reason to keep Tylin alive, not to kill her.**
He has one love triangle, and no others. Where's the stock in trade?
**If the gholam killed Tylin, why did it change its means of killing someone? Iirc people who were killed randomly by the gholam were drained of blood. Tylin was decapitated. I believe Tylin's death is connected to Herid Fel's death, and also Barthanes's death. I believe all three were killed by the same gholam, but I am not convinced it is the gholam that was controlled by Sammael. One gholam kills by draining blood and the other kills by dismembering people.**
The random ones drained of blood are victims for substation -- to keep it alive.
Tylin could of course be a political hit, but more likely the gholam made a move for Mat, and he had already left and Tylin got the punishment.
**Yes Tylin is a “real ” person. This does not mean Lanfear/Cyndane could not pose as Tylin.**
No other Forsaken we have been made aware of has posed as someone already alive. They create a new allias and use it.
Plus, Lanfear as far as we know, never had a set base, so why start now, and for Mat of all reasons?
**Moridin/Ishy has Lanfear/Cyndane mindtrapped so she could be made to do what he wants her to.**
Yeah, and she is, but what does Moridin want with Ebou Dar, when it seems he hardly gave a thought to it, besides having spies there to watch Mat and the girls? And those spies were Darkfriends, not other Forsaken.
**There is a quote in WH iirc Where Mat thinks about the servants making sure he can't leave the palace, because of Tylin's bad temper, and Mat being there to blunt it and not the servants themselves.**
Ok, and...?
**IMO In fantasy, if you are going to write prophesies then you have to make them valid.**
None of them have been confirmed as TRUE prophecies though.
**author is always writing from knowledge and presumably knows where he is going with the story.**
Yeah, and he gives red herrings too. Prophecies can do that too.
**Why attack Tylin and not Mat?**
Already explained -- the gholam came TO attack Mat, Tylin was there.
**Even when she and Asmodean were in the Waste, she pretty much retained her personality.**
Pretty much? She flaunted it to both Rand and Mat.
17
Jiana: 2004-09-30
**"To say that Tylin was killed to avoid love triangle I find hard to understand, as this seems to be stock in trade of RJ's writing. This would seem to me to be more reason to keep Tylin alive, not to kill her."**
Just the opposite. I think it's a perfect reason to kill her. RJ already has a love quadrangle with Min, Elayne, Avi, and Rand. Then there's the situation w/ Perrin, Faile, and Berelain. If I were the author, I would think that yet another love tangle would be overkill, and detract from the storyline.
18
Jiana: 2004-10-01
Okay Callandor, so she WAS flaunting it. :) But that's my point. Given Lanfear's obsession with Rand/LTT, one would think that if Tylin had really been Lanfear, she would have asked Mat a lot more questions about where Rand was, etc. etc. And Tylin was a domineering woman, but not, I think, as domineering as Lanfear, so a lot more anger would've shown in the scenes when Tylin was ticked off. Also, IMO there would've been some sort of plot or contrivance for Mat to lead her to Rand, or to kill the girls, especially Elayne.
19
Callandor: 2004-10-02
**But that's my point. Given Lanfear's obsession with Rand/LTT, one would think that if Tylin had really been Lanfear, she would have asked Mat a lot more questions about where Rand was, etc. etc. And Tylin was a domineering woman, but not, I think, as domineering as Lanfear, so a lot more anger would've shown in the scenes when Tylin was ticked off. Also, IMO there would've been some sort of plot or contrivance for Mat to lead her to Rand, or to kill the girls, especially Elayne.**
There definately would've been something more then "Mat, my love snuggle, put the knife in the post again!"
