he Split Thread Theory
by Celana: 2004-08-03 | Not yet rated
Simply stated, I believe Min, Elayne and Aviendha are/were the same person. Here goes the explination:
There has been some heated debate among TWoT fans over which of Rand's three lady loves is the reincarnation of Ilyena, LTT's wife. I believe Min, Elayne, and Aviendha are ALL Ilyena reincarnated. I believe they share the same thread in the Pattern.
Here's how I see it: time and matter are the fabric of the Pattern. Into this fabric are woven the threads that comprise the Pattern. Each thread is a person, a soul, and each has a unique color, no two are the same. I believe the Creator can split a thread into two or more finer threads in order to create an even more delicate and complicated pattern.
I believe the thread of Ilyena was split into three by the creator in order to give Rand all the support he will need in order to prepare and fight TG.
There are a few hints throughout the series of something like this being true. In WH page 333 from Min's POV it says, "She just loved him so badly she was willing to share, and if she must, then there was no one in the world she would rather share with than Elayne. With her, it almost wasn't like sharing at all."
Right now I can't find the quote but I remember a time when Elayne was thinking of Rand and the whole love quadrilateral, she said she loved both Min and Aviendha as much as she loved Rand, she loved them both "as she loved herself."
I know there is no hard evidence to support this theory, just a few allusions and my gut feeling, but I have believed this since before the first time I finished the series. It would explain Rand's perfectly equal love for each of the three girls.
There it is... Have at it people!
Other Related Thoughts:
*I wonder if the Aiel ever had some knowledge of this phenomenon. Perhaps it is part of the reason they allow a man to have two wives.
*Bain and Chaid MIGHT be another example of this. Let's see how Gaul reacts when they come back.
*I also believe this phenonenon is exceedingly rare, and much more common among women than among men. Why you ask? For the same reason women link easier than men. For the same reason more women complete the Aiel adoption ceremony than men. For the same reason more women survive the trip to Rhuidean than men. Get the idea?
*Elayne, Min, and Aviendha are probably even rarer than a normal "split thread." My gut tells me threads are usually only split into two smaller threads. The more you split a thread the thinner and easier to snap it becomes.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2004-10-29
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
From the Heroes scene in tGH we know that some souls are forever linked (Birgitte & Gaidal, Calian & Shivan), but not all (Rogosh Eagle-Eye, Artur Hawkwing, etc.) Are you suggesting that the Dragon Soul is also always linked to the same mate? That vaguely followes the real-world analog of Islam, where all the Prophets (except Jesus) were married.
Given the dearth of evidence either way, this theory isn't bad. (not that i believe it, sorry Celana) What i don't understand is WHY the Wheel would split Ilyena's soul three ways. What do Elayne, Min & Aviendha bring to Rand's table that couldn't be accomplished by a non-intimate partner? (other than the offspring, of course)
2
Celana: 2004-10-29
I think it's very possible that the Dragon soul may have a soul mate/another soul it is connected to the same way Birgitte and Gaidal Cain are connected.
Why would the Pattern do something like this? It's simply need-based. We all know that Rand needs more help than one woman could ever give him! All three of the girls are necessary to the prophecies and the Pattern and call me a sucker for romanticism, but I believe in the one perfect mate for every person idea.
3
brother of Battles: 2004-10-29
I'm sorry I don't buy it. For this to happen, that would mean that one soul ceased to exist, while three new souls came into being. And then, from here to eternity, there would no longer be an "Ilyena" soul. "Ilyena's" soul can never be re-born, will never again be threaded through the pattern.
Why does there even need to be an "Ilyena" for Rand? Rand and LTT doesn't even have very meny things in common, why would there taste in women be? LTT loved Ilyena, Rand loves Min, Elayne, and Aviendha. Both men loved four different souls.
4
Callandor: 2004-10-29
**Simply stated, I believe Min, Elayne and Aviendha are/were the same person. Here goes the explination:
There has been some heated debate among TWoT fans over which of Rand's three lady loves is the reincarnation of Ilyena, LTT's wife. I believe Min, Elayne, and Aviendha are ALL Ilyena reincarnated. I believe they share the same thread in the Pattern.**
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Question:
How would that work with Aviendha's death, and subsequent life again via balefire? Wouldn't Elayne and Min also have died if they all shared the same thread?
**I believe the Creator can split a thread into two or more finer threads in order to create an even more delicate and complicated pattern.**
WoT Principle #1:
The Creator never, ever, intervenes. Period.
**Why would the Pattern do something like this? It's simply need-based. We all know that Rand needs more help than one woman could ever give him! All three of the girls are necessary to the prophecies and the Pattern and call me a sucker for romanticism, but I believe in the one perfect mate for every person idea.**
So Rand needs the three girls, but they can't be three seperate girls, they have to be the same one?
Thread are made up of the combination of body and soul, and the Pattern weaves the thread and it's entire length are peoples actions. With a split thread, you're essentially saying that a soul can be split (more then one). No reason for this to be true at all.
5
ilgross: 2004-10-29
The difference with Birgitte and Cain is that they are linked and heavily connected.
If we were doind word association with a Randlander.
Birgitte = Cain
However its not like that with the Dragon. His wife wasn't anything special, just somebody he loved.
Besides how can you split a soul/thread? Can they rejoin?
I think your justification for the splitting mostly occuring with women is pretty weak. Some of those other ideas can be explain, away.
And where do Rand, Perrin, and Mat fit into this? To our knowledge Perrin and Mat type Lieutenants weren't present in the AoL but they are now.
Does that mean that Perrin and Mat are split from the dragon thread? I don't think so.
Everyage is different, some ages the dragon acts only, some he has masses of followers, in some he has several Lieutenants so to speak.
Every age is different I don't think we can draw to many parrallels form the 2nd Age to this one.
6
Nine Moons: 2004-10-31
I think it works, if there are a few conditions.
1. It would be more like unweaving the threads, and weaving them back together later on, so that the souls could come back.
2. That once the threads are unwoven, until they are weaved back together, they act as an independant string (unless balefire burns one ALL the way back to the moment they were split). This explains why Elayne and Min didn't get killed when Aviendha was balefired. Her thread wasn't burned back far enough to destroy the other two.
7
Anubis: 2004-11-01
avhienda and min have absolutly nothing in common with ilyena. also the whole third of a soul thing im not buying. some quotemasters can probably help, but the only one who has anything in common with ilyena is elayne. Also, i dont particularily see a reason for ilyena to be reincarnated. She isnt a hero, just someone LTT loved. Gaidal and Brigitte are together because they are both heroes and their love is part of the herodom.
8
Great Lord of the Dark: 2004-11-01
I wonder if the Pattern wants Rand to have to choose between saving Elayne, or Fighting the Last Battle. I believe its the Dark One's plan, but if the Pattern wants to prove Rand will choose the world over his loved ones, that would be scary. Much like having Jesus be crucified, Rand must suffer and see his loved ones suffer, and still choose to do what the Pattern wishes of him.
9
Birgitte: 2004-11-01
I like this idea Celana. But I think that the Pattern itself may split threads, not the Creator. As Callandor said, the Creator never directly interferes. And I don't think that threads split as often as the Aiel have multiple wives either. But anyways...
Lets put a comparison in here... Look at an actual piece of thread (as in the kind used in sewing). You can pull it apart and split it into multiple threads. What Celana and I are saying is that the Pattern can do the same thing when Need demands it.
As to a way the soul could split... I'm not sure on this one. Maybe certain characteristics of the soul would stay in each thread, but that doesn't really answer the question.
As to the reason it was split... I think that it was split because of the amount of help Rand needs. He needs more help than one person could possibly give him. Look at Min... She has devoted all of her time to him and he still has how many problems. He can't deal with them alone and one person isn't enough to help him. Which is why he has 3 as soon as they all get together again.
And the reason they have to love each other is simply Rand's suspicous nature. He wouldn't trust some one he didn't love.
10
Oatman: 2004-11-01
"He wouldn't trust some one he didn't love"
This isn't true - he trusts Taim to train and control the most powerful destructive force in existance at the moment, and he most certainly dosnt love him. He trusts Cadsuane, as he listens to and considers her advice, but he dosn't love her. He trusted Nyneave with the most powerful female Sa'Angreal in existance, and allowed her to link with him and control his power through the male equivilant of that Ter'Angreal, and he dosn't love her, or at least not in the way he loves the trio of girls.
But on the theory, I don't think its plausible. If a thread were to be split, you would get either 3 people with identical personalities and powers, or 3 people who each have one third of the original personality and powers. Mins powers are the first of the type which can be remembered, and I'm sure if Ilyena had those powers LTT would have commented on it.
Also, if Ilyena had the combined personalities and traits of all three of the girls, it probably could've been classified as schizophrenia(hope i spelt that right) because the girls have such a wide variation in thier personalities.
11
Callandor: 2004-11-01
**As to the reason it was split... I think that it was split because of the amount of help Rand needs. He needs more help than one person could possibly give him. Look at Min... She has devoted all of her time to him and he still has how many problems. He can't deal with them alone and one person isn't enough to help him. Which is why he has 3 as soon as they all get together again.**
Ok, Rand needs three girlfriends -- why do they have to have one soul???
Why can't Elayne be a thread, Avi be a thread, and Min be a thread? Why must the three needed girlfriends, all be slammed together as the rebirth of Ilyena? Makes no sense.
12
Birgitte: 2004-11-02
Oatman- I mean that he trusts the girls personally. As in, he could tell them anything and know that its alright. That it won't go farther than them. Rand trust Taim to follow orders and he trust Cadsuane to teach him something. That isn't the same thing as trusting some one to keep your secrets.
13
Sampson: 2004-11-02
This is still going on the assumption that LTT soul is reincarnated with Rand. No, LTT is not reincarnated with Rand, LTT is the patterns checksum. Ilyena was just a person that LTT was in love with. She already played her part. She hasn't been reincarnated and split 3 ways.
Everybody in the series doesn't need to be attached or have been tied to somebody from the AOL. The next theory will be that one of the wise ones is the reincarnation of the Aes Sedai that gave the Prophecy at Rhuidean.
If anything the pattern learned its lesson with Ilyena and split that “part/role” into the 3 different ladies we have now. If one dies, Rand still has obligations and people that need him around so he doesn't go off the deep end and kill's himself.
14
Oatman: 2004-11-03
Birgitte, I think Rand actually hides as much about his personal feelings from the girls as hes does to everyone else. eg when he is cleansing Saidin Min comments that since she can feel the pain through the bond at all, that it must mean he is in incredible pain. If he hides his feelings through the bond that effectively, he's is not likely to tell them much.
The only reason he 'needs' 3 girls is because they cant be everwhere and everything he needs them to be. I'm sure Rand mentions how each of the girls makes him feel in one of the books, but I'm unable to find the quote right now.
No split soul, Love=Trust=Ridiculous
15
Callandor: 2004-11-04
**Birgitte, I think Rand actually hides as much about his personal feelings from the girls as hes does to everyone else.**
Case in point, he did not tell them about Alanna's bond until they were about to bond him.
Another example is none of the girls have been told of his dizziness spells when/not channeling.
Really, Rand does not trust anyone totally. He will hide things from people he trusts with his life even. He totally trusts Flinn since he saved his life. He is forced to trust Cadsuane. He trusts Nynaeve because he grew up with her. He absolutely trusts Mat and Perrin. He trusts Bashere. He trusts Loial (how could you not trust someone with a name like that?!). And he trusts Min, Elayne, and Aviendha.
But he will keep things hidden from all of them; as with them keeping things from him.
16
Birgitte: 2004-11-04
Oatman- Rand mentions a lot of being confused by the girls and in WH he tells them all that he loves them.
Rand wouldn't have agreed to let the girls bond him if he didn't want them to know how he was feeling or trust them enough to know his location without actually being there. I know that he doesn't tell much to Elayne and Avi much, but he tells Min just about everything. Yes I know that we don't get to read about most of what they say, but from what we've read (and my own gut feelings on the matter) I would say that he does.
**Love=Trust=Ridiculous** I don't think so, but then I'm something of a romantic myself. :)
Yeah, I know we don't have much evidence, but that's why its only a theory.
17
ema: 2004-11-06
JUst a thought, I don't mind the thoery except that when Avi was killed and then brought back by Rand, wouldn't the other two die as well? If all three are sharing the same thread, then when one dies, the other two would as well.
18
: 2004-11-06
Here are some overdue responses to all posts:
***How would that work with Aviendha's death, and subsequent life again via balefire? Wouldn't Elayne and Min also have died if they all shared the same thread? ***
I think Nine Moons said it well, each split acts as an individual string/thread until they are strung back together. Also, balefire does not destroy the soul, therefore it would have no effect on the "collective soul," and as each of the split threads are acting independently, BFing one of the girls wouldn't affect the others.
***The Creator never, ever, intervenes. Period.***
Um okay, let's nitpick. I'll call it the Pattern or the Benign Force that Drives the Wheel and Weaves the Patterns from now on, k?
***With a split thread, you're essentially saying that a soul can be split (more then one). No reason for this to be true at all. ***
Well we still can't figure out the reason two souls got shoved into one body a la Slayer, but there he is.
***And where do Rand, Perrin, and Mat fit into this? To our knowledge Perrin and Mat type Lieutenants weren't present in the AoL but they are now.
Does that mean that Perrin and Mat are split from the dragon thread? I don't think so. ***
Wow, This is a theory about Rand's girlfriends. I don't remember saying a darn thing about Mat or Perrin. They have nothing to do with this theory.
***avhienda and min have absolutly nothing in common with ilyena. also the whole third of a soul thing im not buying. some quotemasters can probably help, but the only one who has anything in common with ilyena is elayne.***
And how exactly does Elayne have more in common with Ilyena than the other two girls? Her hair? Her name? I've only been here a couple of months and I'm tired of that argument. A Randlander's looks, nationality, etc., are all determined by the Pattern based on the needs of the Pattern and are in no way influenced by past lives. Rand doesn't look like or act like LTT, but he's still the Dragon. Birgette has worn many faces in her past lives and is still a Hero/archer. What a person looks like in a present life has nothing to do with who they were in a past life.
***And I don't think that threads split as often as the Aiel have multiple wives either.***
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply it happened that often. That bottom part of the theory is just random postulations. I was just wondering if the Aiel, at some point, had some awareness of this type of occurence.
***And the reason they have to love each other is simply Rand's suspicous nature. He wouldn't trust some one he didn't love. ***
Concerning this and subsequent debate on the subject, I don't think the matter of suspicion or trust has anything to do with this. Rand's love for each of the girls (and their love for him) are simply necessary mechanisms in the weave of the Pattern, causing actions and events to happen in a certain way.
***If a thread were to be split, you would get either 3 people with identical personalities and powers, or 3 people who each have one third of the original personality and powers.***
Why would this be so? The Pattern could split up the thread any way it needs to. It could have given just one of the girls all the channeling ability if necessary. Look over the points I made above. Each soul acts and looks differently in each of it's lives, only the core soul remains the same. Each of the three independent incarnations have different genes and different experiences in their lives that shape who they are. Also, to draw a parallel, think about triplets, who all have identical genes but may have utterly different personalities.
***Everybody in the series doesn't need to be attached or have been tied to somebody from the AOL. The next theory will be that one of the wise ones is the reincarnation of the Aes Sedai that gave the Prophecy at Rhuidean.***
Wow, I don't remember saying this either. I only remember metioning Min, Elayne and Aviendha, not Perrin or Lan or Moiraine or Nynaeve or Egwene.... or anybody else.
***Ok, Rand needs three girlfriends -- why do they have to have one soul???***
Hehe, chill Callie, it's just a theory.
19
Callandor: 2004-11-07
**Rand wouldn't have agreed to let the girls bond him if he didn't want them to know how he was feeling or trust them enough to know his location without actually being there. I know that he doesn't tell much to Elayne and Avi much, but he tells Min just about everything. Yes I know that we don't get to read about most of what they say, but from what we've read (and my own gut feelings on the matter) I would say that he does.**
There are still things he will not tell them (yes, EVEN Min).
**TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: Prologue
"Forthcoming?" Min said, sounding suspicious. Of all his motives, he hoped, or anything but the truth. The dizziness and nausea faded slowly. "You have been as open as a mussel, Rand, but I am not blind. First we Traveled to Rhuidean, where you asked so many questions about this Shara place that anyone would think you meant to go there." Frowning faintly, she shook her head as she fastened one of her burdens to the saddle of her brown gelding. She grunted with the effort, but she was not about to set the other bag of books down in the snow. "I never thought the Aiel Waste was like that. That city is bigger than Tar Valon, even if it is half ruined. And all those fountains, and the lake. I couldn't even see the far side. I thought there wasn't any water in the Waste. And it was as cold as here; I thought the waste was hot!"**
Rand may trust a select few, but will not devuluge everything to anyone but himself.
20
Callandor: 2004-11-07
** no effect on the "collective soul," and as each of the split threads are acting independently, BFing one of the girls wouldn't affect the others.**
It does however specifically effect the thread of the individual. Specifically in burning it back due to the amount of balefire.
**Um okay, let's nitpick. I'll call it the Pattern or the Benign Force that Drives the Wheel and Weaves the Patterns from now on, k?**
So, the Pattern did this?
*****With a split thread, you're essentially saying that a soul can be split (more then one). No reason for this to be true at all. ***
Well we still can't figure out the reason two souls got shoved into one body a la Slayer, but there he is.**
~Different~ circumstances.
You are saying a soul got ~split~ (in thirds; let alone in two).
Fain is definately two souls ~in~ one body.
Slayer, heck nobody knows for sure what happened to him.
Both cases are not in the same context of your theory.
**And how exactly does Elayne have more in common with Ilyena than the other two girls? Her hair? Her name? I've only been here a couple of months and I'm tired of that argument. A Randlander's looks, nationality, etc., are all determined by the Pattern based on the needs of the Pattern and are in no way influenced by past lives. Rand doesn't look like or act like LTT, but he's still the Dragon. Birgette has worn many faces in her past lives and is still a Hero/archer. What a person looks like in a present life has nothing to do with who they were in a past life.**
Rand does have a similiarity between him and Lews Therin -- his height.
**I was just wondering if the Aiel, at some point, had some awareness of this type of occurence.**
Or they practice polygamy like quite a few desert cultures do ;)
*****If a thread were to be split, you would get either 3 people with identical personalities and powers, or 3 people who each have one third of the original personality and powers.***
Why would this be so?**
Closest example I can think of is a factal. Any part of it, is exactly identical to the whole.
**The Pattern could split up the thread any way it needs to.**
~Buzzer~
The Pattern opperates under rules as well. They only two forces that opperate under apparently no rules whatsoever, are the Creator (who does not intervene) and the Dark One (and it seems that he works under a few rules too).
**It could have given just one of the girls all the channeling ability if necessary. Look over the points I made above. Each soul acts and looks differently in each of it's lives, only the core soul remains the same.**
Which seems to be true; but the core being split three ways would produce three similiar acting Ileyna Reborn's (at the core, of course).
**Wow, I don't remember saying this either. I only remember metioning Min, Elayne and Aviendha, not Perrin or Lan or Moiraine or Nynaeve or Egwene.... or anybody else.**
But you're drawing off of it. Not every Age is the same carbon copy of itself; heck, not even every repeat of the Age is the same carbon copy.
**Hehe, chill Callie, it's just a theory.**
I personally just find it hilarious you think I'm angry over this or upset.
And it's Callandor. Not Callie.
21
Reddrgn: 2004-11-15
This theory just doesn't fit the pattern. Why would the pattern split a thread/soul. RJ said something along the lines of reading about alot of religions of the world and I know none of them says anything about a soulmate being split. Let alone the fact that not all heroes have a soulmate. But I Digress.
Balefire Would affect the Soul, it erases/burns it out of the pattern back to wherever the amount of power that was used determines. This would be a MAJOR upset in the pattern if one part of a soul/thread were erased out of the pattern.
Those darn rules that the pattern depends on. . .
22
udernation: 2004-11-18
I can't say i agreee with this, but it got me thinking...would it be possible for the pattern to be forced to do this because the prophecies require 3 women who love rand...does that make sense? there's only one soul guaranteed to love rand, so it gets split...so as to assure fullfilling of the prophecies and maintanance of balance....
just a thought.
