he nature of Machin Shin
by Rand-althor: 2004-08-19 | 2 out of 10 (2 votes)
I was thinking, and I just thought of a theory that explains a lot of Machin Shin's behavior.
First of all, from what we know of it, it attacks anything, no matter if it is of the shadow, or the light, or neutral. It attacks and eats their souls. A lot similar to the way that Mashadar does. My theory is that Machin Shin is, in fact, a tendril of Mashadar. Now the biggest problem with this theory is how it happened. I don't belive that it corrupted the waygate and got in that way, because that would raise the question of why it dosen't corrupt out again through the waygates.
My theory is that the shadow, accedentally allowed Masadar to come through the waygate, while using the ways. Because the Trollocs and Fades do not know how to read Ogier script, it makes sense to find out that they know where is where through trial and error.
I believe that the Shadow started using the ways during the Trolloc Wars, realizing its potential powers in transporting troops. After all, in war, the victor is often the most mobile. So when they started to use the ways, it was green and nice, as Loial describles. But I think that in trying to find places, they accedently stumbled on to the Shaddar Logoth waygate. This would have been late in the wars, or else there would likely be no Mashadar at all. So they opened it, and since Mashadar is especially tuned toward the Shaddow, it lashed through the waygate, and into the ways, to attack its prey. Then the waygate was closed, with that part of Mashadar stuck inside. But cut off from its original source, it had to adapt to survive. Changing from the mist of Mashadar into the Machin Shin we now know. In doing this, it also changed the ways.
Now the other problem I see in my theory is in why it doesen't leave the ways. Well, after thinking for a while, I realized that Mashadar can't leave SL, and assumed it was to do with distance, it can't go far away from its "power source" or it will be gone. In the ways it does not have to worry about this, because it is an interwoven world, in a similar way to TAR, and the mirror worlds, so it is in a way everywhere but nowhere. But if it tries to leave the ways, it is away from that source, and so would die, leaving it contained in the ways.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2004-11-12
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
If the Trollocs had been using the Ways since the Trolloc Wars over 2000 years ago, then why are the Trolloc runes on the guidings newly-cut? (and why haven't the nations of man fallen centuries ago?)
Mashadar is the evil of man. Machin Shin is the evil of the Shadow twisting the Ways. Two entirely different evils. And we've seen what happens when these two evils co-mingle. It isn't pretty.
2
Jay al Ender: 2004-11-12
I like your theory. Have some good points. Might help explain why Fain has been able to survive every evil he encounters. Might be an interesting theory to suggest that Fain is going to be the ultimate seal for evil since he's got about all the bases covered.
3
Stilicho: 2004-11-12
I have always suspected a connection between Machin Shin and Mashadar. As for how Mashadar could have got into the ways, I doubt it was due to shadowspawn during the trolloc wars...those gates, especially ones in cities actively fighting the shadow like Aridhol, would have been watched/guarded. However, nothing would stop a corrupted man from Aridhol from being the conduit. Further, machin shin could have been deliberately created as a means to spread the poison that created Shadar Logoth. Also, chicken/egg question-which came first? are the any indications that Machin shin was around before Aridhol became evil? Perhaps Machin Shin's evil was somehow transmitted to Aridhol. Finally, I simply do not buy the theory that the Ways became corrupted because of the taint on Saidin. Bull. What evidence do you have that other creations of saidin or weaves of saidin have turned evil solely by virtue of the taint? Yes the taint was there, but the effects we have seen all affect the power user, not the weave or object at which the power is directed. The only possible exception that comes to mind is the seals, but, to my knowledge, the jury is still out on the cause of their weakening.
4
Sampson: 2004-11-12
Machin Shin is caused by the taint. The ways were “grown”, but initially created by the male AS. So if they used the OP to create the ways with a weave that was tainted. Then all that happened is that the taint evolved into this killer wind. I mean it really doesn't do anything on purpose (exception is after contact with Fain) it just hungers. It doesn't think or reason, after Fain went through the ways, it found another energy that it could understand and be understood. Thats when it got infected with the Shadar Logoth/Mordeth virus.
5
Callandor: 2004-11-12
**First of all, from what we know of it, it attacks anything, no matter if it is of the shadow, or the light, or neutral. It attacks and eats their souls. A lot similar to the way that Mashadar does. My theory is that Machin Shin is, in fact, a tendril of Mashadar. Now the biggest problem with this theory is how it happened. I don't belive that it corrupted the waygate and got in that way, because that would raise the question of why it dosen't corrupt out again through the waygates.**
WOT FAQ:
**Mashadar
Like Mordeth, Mashadar is connected with Shadar Logoth. However, Mordeth and Mashadar are NOT the same. Mordeth is/was a sentient being, an individual. Mashadar is some sort of physical manifestation of the evil nature of the city: "No enemy had come to Aridhol but Aridhol. Suspicion and hate had given birth to something that fed on that which created it, something locked in the bedrock on which the city stood. Mashadar waits still, hungering." [TEOTW: 19, Shadow's Waiting, 244] In particular, Mashadar is a slightly glowing fog. "Mashadar. Unseeing, unthinking, moving through the city as aimlessly as a worm burrows through the earth. If it touches you, you will die." [TEOTW: 20, Dust on the Wind, 249] It is not sentient. It just moves around and kills whatever it touches, in a rather painful fashion, if Liah's reaction to being touched by it in [ACOS: 41, A Crown of Swords, 660] is any indication. Mashadar, or something similar to it, may have existed prior to the Trolloc Wars. In [TEOTW: 50, Meetings at the Eye, 628], Aginor refers to the Shadar Mandarb, or the taint on it, as "An old thing, an old friend, an old enemy." [ACOS book signing: Vancouver, 24 August, 1996; report by Lara Beaton], RJ said that Mashadar appeared after everybody in Aridhol had killed one another.
Machin Shin
The Black Wind of the Ways. It is a part of the "Darkening of the Ways": "About a thousand years ago, during what you humans call the War of the Hundred Years, the Ways began to change....they grew dank and dim...some who came out had gone mad, raving about Machin Shin, the Black Wind." [TEOTW: 43, Decisions and Apparitions, 545] People who run into the Black Wind end up mad, or a mindless husk like the Ogier in [TGH: 36, Among The Elders, 435]. After TEOTW, Machin Shin gained a new feature: it somehow seeks out Rand. Whenever Rand tries to use the Ways, Machin Shin is found at the Waygate he is using. Note that this ONLY happens to Rand. When Liandrin, etc use the ways in TGH, and when Perrin does in TSR, they do not find the Black Wind waiting for them at the Waygate. This new effect is probably somehow due to its encounter with Fain in TEOTW. It seems to have picked up Fain's drive to seek out Rand. Note that it is probably NOT under Fain's control; Fain wanted Rand to follow him to Falme, but Machin Shin prevented him from doing so.
Where did the Black Wind come from? Nobody really knows. Moiraine makes some speculation in [TEOTW: 45, What Follows in Shadow, 576]: "Something left from the Time of Madness, perhaps....Or even from the War of the Shadow, the War of Power. Something hiding in the Ways so long it can no longer get out. No one, not even among the Ogier, knows how far the Ways run, or how deep. It could even be something of the Ways themselves. As Loial said, the Ways are living things, and all living things have parasites. Perhaps even a creature of the corruption itself, something born of the decay. Something that hates life and light."
Some people believe that Mashadar and Machin Shin are somehow connected, that Mashadar somehow got into the Ways through the Shadar Logoth Waygate and then became the Black Wind. This is very unlikely, for the following reasons:
1) Mashadar dates from the Trolloc Wars, Machin Shin from the Hundred Years' War. That is about a thousand years' difference. Thus, the time scale does not agree.
2) Mashadar is a slow-moving glowing fog that kills everything it touches. Machin Shin is a ~black~, howling wind that eats your soul, but doesn't kill your body. So, there is no similarity of appearance, or effect.
3) If Mashadar could get into the Ways from Shadar Logoth, logic says it could get out of the Ways at some other point, and spread itself across Randland. This clearly hasn't happened.**
**Now the other problem I see in my theory is in why it doesen't leave the ways. Well, after thinking for a while, I realized that Mashadar can't leave SL, and assumed it was to do with distance, it can't go far away from its "power source" or it will be gone. In the ways it does not have to worry about this, because it is an interwoven world, in a similar way to TAR, and the mirror worlds, so it is in a way everywhere but nowhere. But if it tries to leave the ways, it is away from that source, and so would die, leaving it contained in the ways.**
Things from Shadar Logoth, are not tied or neccessary to be always at the city. Perfect example is Fain and the dagger. Neither has lost any rate of power, even after the city was destroyed (and RJ has confirmed this and said it will not decrease).
So the Black Wind "starving" almost, makes no sense.
6
ilgross: 2004-11-13
The ways only darkened during the 100 years war.
7
jason wolfbrother: 2004-11-14
Since the Waygates have to be opened by the OP the Trollocs and Myrddraal would have probably been given specific instructions on where to go and how many bridges, islands, etc. to get to where they were sent. Myrddraal and Trollocs avoid Shadar Logoth like the plague and iirc Mashadar didn't even appear until decades after the Trolloc Wars.
EotW Ch. 18 The Caemlyn Road
**"It was called Aridhol," Moiraine said. "In the days of the Trolloc Wars, it was an ally of Manetheren." Staring at the massive walls, she seemed almost unaware of the others, even of Nynaeve, who supported her in the saddle with a hand on her arm. "Later Aridhol died, and this place was called by another name."**
**Moiraine nodded briefly, but her eyes remained on Rand and his two friends. "Late in the Trolloc Wars, an army camped within these ruins - Trollocs, Darkfriends, Myrddraal, Dreadlords, thousands in all. When they did not come out, scouts were sent inside the walls. The scouts found weapons, bits of armor, and blood splattered everywhere. And messages scratched on walls in the Trolloc tongue, calling on the Dark One to aid them in their last hour. Men who came later found no trace of the blood or the messages. They had been scoured away. Halfmen and Trollocs remember still. That is what keeps them outside this place."**
No Trolloc or Myrddraal would go near it unless ordered by a Forsaken. and as the question of the week said, the Dreadlords of the Trolloc Wars could not order the Myrddraal to do anything.
Not likely for Mashadar to have gained access to the Ways, besides the simple fact that they are two distinct entities. Mashadar is a mindless fog. Machin Shin is a talking, screaming, violent wind.
8
Eelfinn Ty: 2004-11-14
I agree with Frenzy on this one. Machin Shin is the evil of the shadow not part of Mashadar. The BWB(big white book) says,
"Possibly, since the Ways were born if the tainted Power the Black Wind was also born from the corruption. Some say that it may be a parasite, natural to the Ways but corrupted. Still others believe it was a remnant of the War of the Shadow that hid in the Ways and can no longer find a path out.
Since the Ways were created by male Aes Sedai with saidin after it was tainted. It also states that the Aes Sedai created traps for any Shadowspawn. Machin Shin could be a trap for Shadowspawn that was twisted by the taint.
The ways are also alive in a way that no one understands, so it could also be something that grew out of the ways.
9
a dragonburned fool: 2004-11-18
Since RJ said that Machin Shin is not a deviation of Mashadar, this theory cannot be true. The only possibility of Shadar Logoth having any connection to the creation of Machin Shin is if somebody takes something (e.g. a little stone) from Shadar Logoth, brings it out, then comes in the Ways and leaves it there. Every thing from Shadar Logoth will influence everything alive around it making it suspicious etc., without making it part of Mashadar. So an Shadar Logoth thing could change the living essence of the Ways in the same manner like the dagger changed Mat...
10
warick: 2006-11-23
**Since the Ways were created by male Aes Sedai with saidin after it was tainted. It also states that the Aes Sedai created traps for any Shadowspawn. Machin Shin could be a trap for Shadowspawn that was twisted by the taint.**
The only problem with is that the taint only contaminates the person who uses the One Power, not anything created/altered by the one power. (I can't think of any cases where it has)
11
Anubis: 2006-11-26
**The only problem with is that the taint only contaminates the person who uses the One Power, not anything created/altered by the one power. (I can't think of any cases where it has)**
The ways.
They are also quite unlike anything we have seen anyone create, and are a living thing (in a manner of speaking). Perhaps any construct made with saidin (while tainted) would be tainted in some way.
