1
Tamyrlin: 2004-11-19
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
1) You call it a weakness, i call it social commentary. It is EXACTLY the lack of trust between characters that breeds the intrigue that makes WoT so much fun to read. If everyone could get over themselves enough to work together, the world would be a better place. The very fact that the real world doesn't work like that, and neither does the WoT world, makes things so complex. It probably annoys you because it hits close to home, and you want your fantasy novels to be an escape from grim reality.
2) Because when it's really hot a wifebeater isn't going to help. You don't see people living in the deserts of the middle-east wearing nothing but their underpants, do you?
3) If that's what you want, stick to Feist, or Eddings.
4) So Jordan is relying on you to use your imagination a little. You're right, that's his fault.
5) Can't argue with you here. Much. i like Samwise, he was a lot more interesting than Frodo the packmule was. Yes, i think Rand should suck it up, but i do NOT say that Rand has accomplished nothing. He's taken the world and shook it like a snowglobe. Granted a lot of that was by accident and the world was primed for it, but thems the breaks.
6) He's making you work for it. If you want it on a platter, go read McCafferey.
7) Would you make an emotional connection to ugly people? Well, if they sucked it up and did something, maybe. See Sorelia.
8) Good! You've gotten one of the big points Jordan's trying to convey.
9) You could write them all down, that way you don't have to remember them. Or even better: let someone else do it, and use their online character lists.
Jordan isn't the end-all-be-all of fantasy authors. But he has qualities and techniques that separate him from the crowd. Some find them annoying, others find them disturbing, others find them enjoyable.
Oh, the Dark One is really Piglet.
2
Lord of Morning: 2004-11-19
5. Last time I checked none of us have had to deal with another person living inside our head much less someone who helped destroy the world. Also Rand has every single person in the series thinking that they know what is best for him and what he should be doing not to mention all of the Forsaken wanting to kill him. Although I do agree that if he just picked up Cadsuane and spanked her that would solve a lot of his problems.
3
jaellon: 2004-11-19
First, I think this series is excellent. It is one of the best I have ever read.
To answer your points myself:
1) not a big deal to me. when you live in desperate times, there is very little trust and it's a lot easier to be snippety with others. If anything, Jordan hasn't done enough to show the worry and fear that is causing these ... to me... realistic conflicts.
2) I agree...too much details cause the books to slow down. Honestly, if book 1 had been written like book 10, I never would have finished it, let alone the series. Jordan says that not every book can be a slam-bang action thriller. I ask, "Why not?" That style kept the first four books exciting, while still allowing for Jordan's excellent character development and evolution, and all the subtle plot twists. When you finish an entire 1000-page book and the plot has not advanced in any significant fashion, for any character, you tend to regret the 2 years you desperately waited for it to be published.
3) not a problem for me...when men and women come to power based on their wealth and lineage, you can bet that a good many of them won't be qualified for the job. I think this makes the series richer.
4) not a problem for me...the battle scenes have consistently kept me up into the wee hours of the morning. If it's not realistic...well, I don't know enough to say nay, nor do I care to learn firsthand. As for the "forms", I've worked out most of them with a plastic sword and cloth armor. I may have them completely different from RJ's imagination, and I'd probably get my teeth kicked in in any case, but I've still enjoyed it.
5) definitely not a center stage character like earlier on...I would have liked to see more focus on him, but that would have to be at the expense of Mat, Perrin, Egwene, etc. (I wouldn't mind reading less about Nynaeve, but anyway).
7) Most of the characters I remember are beautiful, yeah, but when I do a thorough search I find that most of the ones I don't remember aren't. But, yeah, there might be a higher rate of beauty in this world than in ours...not a problem for me, though
8) Yeah, I frequently want to pull my hair out, but not because of Jordan or his books. The characters do not communicate like I'd like them to, but that's not necessarily unbelievable. It's easy to say, "do this, do that" when you're a Monday Morning Quarterback. It definitely gets me emotionally involved, but not frustrated with the series.
9) It does seem to require a glossary of characters to keep people straight. I agree it might be a little out of hand, but it's not a problem for me.
Frenzy, you seemed to take stepchild's remarks personally. You doin' ok? :)
4
Callandor: 2004-11-20
1. The Aes Sedai acting like petty children is a hilarious turn of events. It's purposefully ironic.
2. Why don't they work together? They have to ~be~ together first. Everytime they are, ~surprise!~ there is that companionship.
See Falme, the Stone of Tear, Rhuidean, attack on Cairhien, Dumai's Wells (in a big way).
**2. RJs constant and tedious descriptions of what each character is wearing. Im over it! Its not important to the plot. I am aware that it is part of his 'rich tapestry' but after 10 books, come on! enough is enough. i dont care how much gilt Rand has on his red coat. And another thing, when it was really hot, why didnt all the guys just strip down to a wife-beater or something?**
....
It's roughly an 1800s society without gun powder invention; wifebeaters are a bit of a stretch.
Yes, the clothing can be quite on and on, but there are also important tidbits that are hidden in there that people gloss over because they get so sick and tired of reading them. It's actually a sneak attack for clues.
**3. Nobles (bar Morgase and Berelain, and maybe some others i have forgotten) are universally weak and foppish. None of them have any idea (especially the nobles of tear, illian and cairhein) how did these people get power? This relates back to issue one, RJ has not created any likable or memorable charaters than we can barrack for. I know this is probably closer to people are like in real life, but this isnt real life! I want characters who just get out there and give it a shot without constantly doubting themselves, arguing etc.**
What are you talking about? Hate to break it to you, monarchies ~did~ have nobles EXACTLY like what RJ is describing. How did they get power? They were born into it. Nothing else. Just like any Medival Fuedalist country in our own history.
Heck, Russian nobles were quite out of touch with their common people up till the 1900s; French until the 1800s I believe.
**4. Battle scenes: basically RJ is useless at this part of story-telling. He has no concept of how to make a reader feel like they are really there. Bernard Cornwall is the master of placing a reader right in the battle whereas RJ is an amateur and unfortunately hasnt gotten any better after thousands of pages. Feist is an excellent creator of man to man fight scenes but RJ just relies on 'the forms' which dont actually mean anything! Can anyone out there tell what it looks like when Rand does the Heron on the Lake (not sure if that one exists - just made it up! but you know what i mean!)**
Here is simply a matter of opinion, and many people I know would say you are dead wrong. LOTS of people love RJ's battle scenes (Dumai's Wells alone is always a top favorite scene).
As for sword forms, of course they are vague; so ~YOU~ can use that little thing call imagination and have Rand do a simple parry, or a complex life-saving block. You have to lose yourself in it first.
**5. Rand: one word, the most boring protagonist in the history of fantasy novels! I even like Sam Gamgee better than Rand. he has very little personality and just shouts his way through everything using no tact or diplmacy. I wish i could just meet him and say : 'suck it up, princess!' i mean, he is the dragon reborn, i wish he would start acting like it.**
Seriously, have you read the books? I guess the entire analogy to Rand becoming like a rock, then iron, the steal, makes no impact on him "sucking it up." Really, the problem is the exact opposite; Rand needs to let go. Everything that happens practically cuts him to the bone, and he shows nothing for it.
**6. details, details: RJ has this unusual habit of describing the most mundane events in minute detail, and then when it comes down to it, its all over in the blink of an eye. when the gang is in Ebou Dar looking for the bowl of winds RJ spends page after page describing how Nynaeve is mad at Matt, and where MAtt is playing dice, and which barwench is serving hot food to which soldier etc etc. He just needs to get on with. RJ is the master of the padding, but not much of it is very interesting!**
So, you want RJ to write "Mat went to the tavern. He left. He went to the palace. He met Elayne and Nynaeve. They went for the Bowl. They found it. It was all good."
Sorry, but if you are telling off Robert Jordan for putting in details, all I have to say is read the Lord of the Rings. Filled with useless crap.
If you want a pre-packaged fantasy world that reads like stero instructions, write it yourself. You'll commend yourself on just the right amount of detail in every scene.
Or, you can realize, that with a lot of those details, it adds a lot more to the world, giving us a better understanding of it, and more ways to enjoy it, as well as possibly giving very valuable foreshadowing.
**7. Beauty: i really want to go to this world because everyone is very very attractive.**
Gaidal Cain. Plain and simple.
**8. communication: they have pigeons, fast horses, even the world of dreams for heavens sake! half the problems that occured could have been avoided if people just talked to each other.**
So tell me, do you know any one personally in another part of the world that you have important information for, but don't know how to get a hold of?
People don't tell everyone everything. People keep secrets for very good reasons. People can't tell others for other very good reasons.
How many situations have you ever had in your life that have come from miscommunication? That's a lot of irony!!
**9. naming of characters. i have a good memory but i sure as hell cant remember half of the characters that i need to. RJ gives everyone a name, but its not necessary for the plot, it just serves to confuse the whole deal, especially when he re-introduces a minor character he doesnt fill us in on who it is etc. it doesnt have to blatant, just a subtle reminder of who they are and what they have been up to.**
Do you want J.K. Rowling giving the same 5 or 6 year summaries of people's lives, for which the events are not that hard to forget?
Or do you want an author that is more realisitic, because like with the real world, you have to remember the people. Mat meeting Bayle Doman again, in Winter's Heart after last seeing him in The Eye of the World (huge time difference), is going to be a lot different then Nynaeve and Elayne meeting him in The Shadow Rising after last seeing him in The Great Hunt.
Same guy, but when RJ brings him by Mat, he will seem "vaguely familiar... why did he remind me of a boat?", instead of clamouring to see Nynaeve because he remembers her.
**do you think I have spent hours upon hours toiling my way through endless pages of some pretty average story telling to miss out on finding out that Elayne is Thom's daughter and that Birgitte is a lesbian and the Dark One is in fact Santa Claus?!**
Birgitte maybe a lesbian, and the Dark One maybe Santa Claus, but Elayne is in no way Thom's daughter. RJ has confirmed this, if it was not already appartent from those "details" from the books.
5
Oatman: 2004-11-20
As much as I want to argue most of your points, the only one I'm going to go into is 7, because this is a point that really bugs me.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so someone who may be extremely attractive to one person will be average to the next. The only 3 people who are the exception to this rule are Lanfear, Galad, and Berelain.
I dont have the quotes to back this up, but I know when Mat, Perrin, and Rand are thinking of each others girlfriends they don't find them as attractive as thier own, ie Perrin thinks Faile is the most beautiful, Rand thinks his girls are the most beatiful, etc.
The only reason everyone in the series seems beautiful is that is because the series is written from a number of different perspectives, and because it is easier to use a word like beautiful to describe a persons physical apppearence then to write a detailed description of thier physical features, which would take many pages, and most probably confuse the reader in the end.
6
udernation: 2004-11-21
Agree with frenzy on all counts. You don't read epic fantasy for escape. You read it for politics and (ableit bizarre) realism. Stick to heroic fantasy, it's what you seem to praise.
7
Callandor: 2004-11-21
**4. Battle scenes: basically RJ is useless at this part of story-telling. He has no concept of how to make a reader feel like they are really there. Bernard Cornwall is the master of placing a reader right in the battle whereas RJ is an amateur and unfortunately hasnt gotten any better after thousands of pages. Feist is an excellent creator of man to man fight scenes but RJ just relies on 'the forms' which dont actually mean anything! Can anyone out there tell what it looks like when Rand does the Heron on the Lake (not sure if that one exists - just made it up! but you know what i mean!)**
Btw, just adding, I see your entire objection to the battle scenes are not battle scenes; merely sword fighting scenes. As I already said in a reply, this technique is used to facilitate your imagination to fill in the gaps.
However, any other battle, I don't think really comes into any conflict with your catagory. What about One Power battles? Those are hardly just sword forms. Mat and his ashandarei? Perrin and his axe? How about entire chapters dedicated to regular soldiers being led into massive battles? Heck, the Battle of Cairhein probably only makes references to swords the infantry and calvary use.
8
Jane-Sedai: 2004-11-22
1. The anger at each other sets the tone, they are in the darkest time of their age, so I think it is fair that there is little fun, however Min still teases Rand, and there is a lot of male/female humour, stating how men will never understand women. Which lightens the burden a little. I wouldn't say there is no comradery either as I think that Siuan/Leane/Gareth/Egwene all have a friendship that smacks of it, as do Briget and Elayne. I think it is just a little too subtle when reading such a big series.
2. The description of what each person is wearing can get a little lengthy at times, but memories are created visually, so I need the help to follow the book.
3. How many smart politicians do you know (todays version of royalty and rulers). I find them mostly ignorant and undernaded I think he has it on the mark there.
4. Battles scenes, I can't say I really feel like I am there more like I am watching a movie in my head, this suffices for me, and I find the battle scenes rather accurate, possible from RJ's own military experience.
5. Rand's character is beginning to bore me for his ignorance, but it also keeps me drawn like a magnet, because I just have to know how Cadsuane will sort him out. Also I do not think he really earnt the love of three women, he didn't seem that impressive to me.
7. There is much beauty and ugliness, I wouldn't describe Tuon or Uno as beautiful or Egainin... and many people are described as 'handsome' short of beauty....
8. Communication: I sincerely share this frustration with you, I find that if Rand just got Mat and Perrin together and Eg, Elayne, Nyneave, Min, Aviendha and layed out the plan, straightened out any concerns they had... aaaah! Well to suffice I imagine the series would be a lot shorter, and less compelling. I am hooked to see how the truth will unfold...
9. In real life people are not extras without names on a movie set... you meet people and hear their names and sometimes forget them to, I think RJ has tried to reflect this detail, but you are right its bloody hard to remember, makes the glossary very handy, I always read that to make sure I actually understand who's who. I think there is also a lot of names because this is not a short time line...
9
Frenzy: 2004-11-24
i'm cool, jaellon, thanks for asking. People complaining about the series on a board about the series irks me. It's beating a dead horse. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with complaining, i've been known to yell at the books whenever a character (Rand) irritates me. Guess it's the engineer in me: if you see a problem, then solve it. If you don't like WoT, then move on. Don't kill the buzz for the rest of us.
10
jaellon: 2004-11-24
Realism isn't necessarily the driving factor behind whether a series is good or not. The basic premise behind all fiction and especially fantasy is that there are elements that didn't happen or could not happen.
Of course, characters should respond to events in a way that a real human would, and when they don't we have a hard time believing it. But having weak or boring characters, while realistic, doesn't make a series good. Quite the opposite.
So while I agree with most of the points that defend the quality of the series, the Realism argument isn't what carries the weight for me.
11
Tanis: 2004-11-25
**What are you talking about? Hate to break it to you, monarchies ~did~ have nobles EXACTLY like what RJ is describing. How did they get power? They were born into it. Nothing else. Just like any Medival Fuedalist country in our own history.
Heck, Russian nobles were quite out of touch with their common people up till the 1900s; French until the 1800s I believe. **
Did?! Come over and see the English Royal Family, they still do!!
12
Urza: 2004-11-27
1) Eh. It bugs me sometimes, but I find it hilarious that Aes Sedai are possibly the most childish characters in the whole book series. Very nice irony.
2) Agreed.
3) Oh, I don't know. Never really saw nobles as a whole as being weak. Can't really judge them by the way they act towards Rand; I mean, it's to be expected that they're scared of a man who can channel that strongly, even barring the fact he's the Dragon Reborn and all.
4) Never really noticed. He does ok.
5) I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Rand does extremely well, considering. He has the right of it doing what he thinks is best; it's not as if Wise Ones or Aes Sedai or anyone knows what the best course would be. i think you're forgetting that most of the complaining and whining he does is internal. And that's completely natural. He does suck it up. My only real problem with him is why in the hell he takes any crap from people like Cadsuane at all. I know, logically, he needs her, but it's not like Rand's never let his temper get to him before.
6) I agree, partly. I could barely read my way through Book 10, because of it, but the rest of the books were ok with it.
7) Hah. I agree completely. Even people who aren't beautiful are described as handsome or pretty. And most of them are universally good-looking; most people agree that Rand looks good, for example. But what can you do?
13
vodomar: 2004-11-29
I understand what stepchild is saying. Sure it is important in the long run and for story - just look at all the seemingly minor points people find that are crucial for a theory. For some of us though ~ahem~ who read these books purely for the enjoyment and don't really care who killed Asmodean or who this forsaken is masquerading as, it can be frustrating at times. But, having said that, Jordan isn't writing to please us and once you get into it, the descriptions etc. aren't that bad. Now onto point-by-point:
1. Ahh teamwork. How many opportunities have the forsaken had to land major blows if they had worked together? As much as it irks me, there is a point to it. All the characters have their own agendas and on some occasions they are the same and the groups get things done (see Callandor's response for examples). The forsaken could have disposed of a number of problems if they had teamed up, but that's a part of the story - the jostling for positions and the Dark One's favour.
2. I agree. Although in some cases it is important to the plot and theories. Take Mesanna for example. Lots of the theories on her identity depend on similarities between her appearance and her supposed alter ego.
3. This one has already been answered. Most are born into it. Assassination is also pretty common, anyone seen as a threat is removed
4. Agree with the sword forms. To me it's just hitting weapons together, but to others it's an art form. Each to their own. I like to think of them like they are in movies (Lord of the Rings is a good example)
5. Rand was a much better character before he was bonded to the three, but that's my opinion and lots of people disagree. I still enjoy reading his POV but as the main character of the book, he's got far too little on-screen time.
6. See response to 2. Also with all the padding, when something does happen you remember why Jordan is so good at this. Just think of it as tool for building suspense, rather than too much padding.
7. Already answered. May also be a lack of different descriptive words for the same thing? He also describes the same character a few times (practically every time we meet them).
8. Agree completely. This is similar to the teamwork thing - the series would be a whole lot shorter if the characters knew what the others were doing ;)
9. I'm horrible with names anyway, so it doesn't matter to me. I often get confused when he uses Jain and Jaim as names for characters and any other similar sounding variations of a name.
I'd be surprised if the majority of readers haven't been frustrated at one point. We (i.e. those who get frustrated a little too often) have a right to talk about the things we hate about WoT as much as the things we like about it. Really, if we didn't like the series, we wouldn't be here ;)
14
a dragonburned fool: 2004-11-30
There is enough said against every of the Stepchild's points, but I have the impression that noone of these 9 objections was really what Stepchild factually meant, i.e. that Stepchild failed to find adequate arguments for his opinion. Stepchild said: **Back in my younger days I fell in love with Raymond E. Feists novels, Magician will still always be my favourite fantasy novel. Unfortunately, RJs WOT series just does not live up to Feists early work**. Now, if we compare Jordan to Feist's Magician, every one of teh 9 points could be as well turned against Feist (maybe except the communicatoins between the main characters). So it must be something different that Stepchild actually liked in Feist and disliked in Jordan. Maybe the difference Stepchild is looking for is rather in the general tone: after reading the early Feist one feels as after reading a fairy tale, while after reading WoT it's not exactly so.
15
Cha Faile: 2004-11-30
I'm just going to address a select couple of issues... you say that the problems could have been avoided with better communication, i say that without these problems there would be no plot and the series would be considerably shorter.
In a fantasy novel, there must be a certain level of absurdism for the plot to work. So i don't think that the lack of communication is a fault, if anything its a means to add new twists to the storyline.
You say that they have pigeons and the world of dreams. just to point it out , not all characters have access to the World of Dreams like Nynaeve etc. Besides, what good will that do if there was "an emergency". A rendez-vous has to be arranged beforehand, they can't just expect the other person to be there.
I can't resist talking about another point too: the naming of the characters. If you counted how many people YOU know in the REAL WORLD it would surely be more than the number of characters in the book and if RJ is creating a new fantasy world, it's gonna be a big place.If every person is a thread in the Pattern, they are all woven together to create it, resulting in people criss-crossing each other's path. If he didn't give them a name, what would you think: "ah..he can't think of anymore names..." or perhaps "they're not important". By giving every character a name (important or not) he makes us wonder who will be involved in the future. If he didn't, we'd just discard them from the theory pile (and this site would be considerably smaller).
On the topic of beauty, as someone has said, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Just because their perception of beauty is not the same as our own twisted views (aided by the media) doesn't mean that everyone there would be beautiful to our eyes.
On the subject of Rand, sure he's not our usual hero, but then he's not a hero at all... and what's wrong with Sam Gamgee.
16
Mr Mashadar: 2004-11-30
I am a big fan of Wheel of Time. Yet I must say that I agree with everything you said.
Robert Jordan really makes the characters quite negative. A wise person would see the folly of anger and bitterness, but not many see it in his world. I guess you can say that the wisest of all in RJ's world are the Tuatha'an and the Ogier.
His descriptions for people's garments, and the settings around people seem to be an excuse to make the series the size that it is.
I always feel a bit stinched on the battle scenes. He wrote no description for Rand and Ba'alzamon's fight in the sky. In fact, he skipped Mat and Coualadin's fight altogether!
The thing about Rand I must say I disagree. He is quite an interesting character. The news of his being the Dragon, and his task is really messing up his mind. His only escape seems to be that he must be cold and emotionless. And outside, he's a stone, while inside he's being eaten alive.
I as well want to join the world. Kissing and getting into bed with women seem to be a sport in Edmond's Field.
8: What can I say? There are so many things being held back, and this is probably one of the biggest causes for human conflict.
I'll be damned if I should remember all the names of the characters.
And Book 10 altogether is something that needs improvement. When I look back from Eye of the World, he really went downhill. There's no comparing Eye of the World to Crossroads of Twilight at all.
17
scion2: 2004-12-05
While some of the characters and their traits/acts annoy me, I have to admit that it is somewhat realistic. I mean, as you pointed out in point 8, the characters do not communicate very well. This is why most conflicts arise, and the novels give show us this human flaw.
But, your comments about padding, so very true. I don't know how many times I've had to skip 10-page-long descriptions of how Nynaeve or Elayne got dressed (vaguely reminiscent of Alexander Pope).
18
salem: 2004-12-06
Wow stepchild, you are very brave. I almost never post anything here, and your post reminded me why. But, while I am not fully behind you, I can see why you feel that way. What REALLY bothers me about RJ is his treatment of women. Actually it is the repeated descriptions of beating them. Yeah, I can understand the Aiel way of life..or whatever the current rationale/belief/excuse. But do we really need to read the naked beating of Eqwene by the Wise ones, Berelain being spanked(?) whipped(?) at the Stone, Suian being naked, and beaten in the Tower after being stilled, Semirhage torturing the Aes Sedai while she was spread eagled and*shock* naked, Elaida being beaten without her shift, Shermian(?) being beaten i Saldiar, Faile being beaten and tied up naked in the freezing snow, Moggy torturing Nyneave, all the novices being sent to the Mistress of Novices for the "strap". ETc etc...there is nothing on this level of systematic torture and abuse for the male characters. Men are usually just killed. But RJ seems to enjoy making his female characters feel humiliated. You can argue all you want about whatever you think his motivations are, but it almost makes me sick. It actually has come close to turning me off his books. No doubt a bunch of people will jump all over this post and say"then don't read him". I think he does have a lot of redeeming points and they far outweigh this one negative. I just feel like he is pandering to some base audience, and that makes me sad.
19
Aiel Finn: 2004-12-06
I belive he does that as a point between the differnece between men and women, all of those except for Semhirege, and Sheriam are beatings for a punishment. It kind of shows that women don't just kill because not only does killing not really punish, it also destroys the ability for that person to preform later good.
20
Callandor: 2004-12-06
Do you know why torturers undress their victims? Semirhage spells it out perfectly: a person with clothes on, has some sense of security; a naked person loses that.
Being hit with a switch without a shift on, just increases the punishment. After all, a beating with some clothes on is preferable to a beating with none on.
The novices are punished the way they are to make them grow up. A sniveling girl is not what the Aes Sedai want (even though they can degrade to them), and a tough existance is what gets rid of that (same with the Aiel).
**But RJ seems to enjoy making his female characters feel humiliated.**
I doubt there is a sadistic element to RJ's writing, except from the characters created.
And there are men tortured as well (the Warder by Semirhage, the Seanchan man by the Shaido Aiel, the Shaido Aiel captured by the Dragonsworn in Perrin's camp, Rand at the hands of Lanfear at the docks in TFOH, etc.). It's more of a universal element showing: this is what we can come down to.
21
Hurin: 2004-12-06
You're right. If you have a problem with it, then don't read the books. I think that RJ is a great writer. We all have our favorite writers and then again we have our writers that we don't like. What's the point of reading a book if you're only going to complain about it? It talks about the guys being naked, also. Maybe it's a good thing that you never posted much before?
22
Gareth: 2004-12-07
Salem: - what about Rand beeing locked in a chest and repeatedly beaten while kidnaped by Galina and Co ?
- what about the seanchan tortured by Sevanna and her wise ones ?
- what about the aiel who got his hand chopped by Perrin ?
I just needed 30 sec to find 3 examples. And I'm not the greatest expert about the series. I'm sure that our famous heroes of the horn here can provide some more easily.
23
Jiana: 2004-12-07
Alright. Okay. People are entitled to their opinion, and we all know what opinions are like. :) So here I go with my point by point response:
1. The point of his elaborations in this area is to show how petty and fallible (sp?) the Aes Sedai, among others, really are, as opposed to what the rest of the world thinks of them. Like most others here, I find it pleasantly ironic.
1a. There ARE characters that work together all over the place. Just one example (standing out to me because I recently read it) is the chapter in which the Bowl of the Winds is used. Even the "real" Aes Sedai were teaming up with Elayne and Nynaeve against the Sea Folk Wavemistresses. Other examples are Perrin & Loial at Dumai's Wells, Berelain, Faile, and Annoura at the meeting with Alliandre... No matter what was going on in their heads at the time, they presented a united front, which in this series counts for a lot.
2. There ARE no wife-beaters in Randland, only shifts and smallclothes, and everyone would look awfully funny running around in their skivvies.
3. Ethenielle is not weak and foppish, nor is Easar. Tenobia... might be flighty, but she is hardly weak. And yes, a lot of rulers throughout history have been born into power, and have in no way earned it through deed or intelligence. Take a look at our own president, who can't even hold his Cabinet together. :)
4. Actually the battles seem very well detailed to me. As was mentioned in an earlier reply, it's more like a mind movie than actually being there, but in a battle scene, that suits me fine.
5. He acts that way because that's the way he THINKS the Dragon Reborn ought to act. Remember Eye of the World and the Great Hunt??? Rand has buried his true self because he thought he had to.
6. Not much argument there--he does go into detail a bit too much, but if he were to change that, it would make the series different, and thus not as good, IMO. (Good point about hiding clues there, Callandor)
7. Not everyone is beautiful. He describes homely, plain, and ugly people throughout the books.
8. Then where would the plot be?
9. I thought you were going to say "pronunciation" as far as the names were concerned... I have a strange memory, myself, and don't have much trouble remembering who the minor characters are that show up again. I also like that facet of the books, because it provides a good "gasp" factor, for me anyway. However, there ARE names that I recognize when I see, but if I tried to pronounce them, it would come out as gibberish.
Oh,I also don't think Birgitte is a lesbian. She would've made a move on Elayne by now. And I thought the Dark One was Mickey Mouse?
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fistandantilus: 2004-12-09
Salem, I am in my fifth reread, and I have never even thought about how often the women are nude. Why should that be so important? It is a fact of life for Aiel, for Aes Sedai, etc. Not really an important factor to any one inside the given societies, so as readers, it should not be important to us.
And, to add to the other examples, men being taken gai'shin(sp?) are stripped naked also.
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Kiel: 2004-12-11
It never ceases to amaze me how many people hate or even dislike this series. My sister keeps whining about the things she hates about this series, about how bad RJ is at writing, etc, yet she spent the holidays with her nose in his books.
Anyways, I think stepchild is hoping that the WoT people will do what he wants, not what they would actually do. How realistic would it be if Aes Sedai, who were the head honcho wise people of the planet, and everyone who was not Aes Sedai had always been considered less than them, would jump at the opporotunity to be a student? none would. Sure, you may want them to stop being cocky, but would they really?
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Ozymandias: 2005-09-02
Just sort of saw this, and I have to say, while there are things I disagree with in these books, not one of them ranks on the above list (im thinking more of the rampant sexism). Half you're complaints encompass the fact that Jordan describes small details well and large details badly. Well, I'm pretty sure thats deliberate. Youre imagination is gonna think up something infinetely more interesting than what he describes, and by giving you a background of emotions and small details, he primes your mind to think up something by filling in the details your imagination might miss. And I think his decision to avoid spending half the books on battle scenes is a plus. I mean, what do you want to know about this that you already dont? People are down there fighting with swords or whatever, and he assumes you know this. He talks about the things which might not happen in your everyday battle.
His detail is what makes the story, and its more than detailed enough to make it so that you can put yourself in the world. I admit that he does go overboard in the last 4, but its interesting to see how they start out as your run of the mill, relatively crappy (IMO) fantasy books in the first three (as in, all action and no description) to a sublime state of near perfection in the middle three or four (tSR-CoS), to slow boredom in the last few. It sort of tracks his experience as a writer. In any case, it sounds like you need your fantasy stories spoon fed to you, with every second where something happens described and the rest ignored. I think the series, especially the middle three, are the pinnacle of fantasy writing (with the only possible competition being from LotR and one book, Faith of the Fallen)
27
William Seeker: 2005-09-05
5. Rand is constantly struggling trying to save the world, and keep the people he loves safe. Plus, he has to live with the fact that he's the reincarnation of a nut, who he grew up being told was worse than the forsaken.
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Jalwin Moerad: 2005-09-06
From the previous responses to this theory, it appears that one of the most hated aspects of WoT is the 'sexism' that exists within the series (which most of the TLers think is directed against women). I have two things to say about that:
One, women are not the only ones who are the victims of sexism. Yes, perhaps fewer men than women are brutally beaten, but every three chapters another man is referred to as a "dog." Almost every Aes Sedai thinks that way, especially reds. All women see men as inferior ("They think with the hair on their chests"), and while men may find women difficult to understand in WoT, they do not denigrate them in the same fashion. And the scene with Sehmirage? I find it more offensive that she considered the Warder so useless that she didn't even bother trying to extract information; she killed him through negligence. And look to how Graendal treats men as well (note: I am aware that Rahvin, Balthamel, etc., treated women equally shamefully).
Two, the point of the sexism is to illustrate how worthless that type of thinking is in this world. And each sex is conditioned, unfortunately, to be supersensitive to the sexism against themselves, rather than theirs to the opposite sex. I can see both sides; that's kind of what RJ is trying to achieve, I think. Anyway, I just wanted to redress the balance.
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Ozymandias: 2005-09-06
well what bothers me is exactly what you said, but in the opposite manner. Firstly, the entire idea behind the Red Ajah is that they are less than fond of men, and that doesnt bother me. What does is the offhand dismissal and ignorance on the part of women towards men. Min is not so bad with this, nor is Moiraine (she dismisses everyone offhand). But Elayne, Egwene, and Nynaeve, the main female characters, are all like this. They assume they are right, though they usually arent, and dont do much but gripe and complain about how men screw things up. And most of the time they need men to bail them out anyways. The sexism towards men is just how RJ is sexist towards women; he portrays them all as sexist. The men, while confused about the ways of women, rarely criticize women in a vitriolic manner (obviously Mat does occaisonally when they confuse him). Its just so blatant that it makes me hate the female POVs because its sure to be filled with all sorts of wallowing in self pity and mistaken assumptions
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JamieK: 2005-10-10
a note about the sexism - thats kinda how its like in life. we've all had that "humph, men" comment. and it seems women do tend to think they know best. dont get me wrong, im not sexist at all, but men seem generally more laid back about the whole thing and just say/do what needs to be done.
i love the series, but 2 small points bug me - i dont care how much honey is in some tea! and the phrase, "Light, but he was tired" - why is the word 'but' necessary. i've noticed this in every book, "Light but he wanted a rest" etc. otherwise i have no real gripes with the language.
31
checkout operator: 2005-12-01
next time u re-read the first 3 books look out for how many time rj mentions "spit dogs" it made me laugh...
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Darkdwarf: 2008-07-08
"""4. Battle scenes: basically RJ is useless at this part of story-telling. He has no concept of how to make a reader feel like they are really there. Bernard Cornwall is the master of placing a reader right in the battle whereas RJ is an amateur and unfortunately hasnt gotten any better after thousands of pages. Feist is an excellent creator of man to man fight scenes but RJ just relies on 'the forms' which dont actually mean anything! Can anyone out there tell what it looks like when Rand does the Heron on the Lake (not sure if that one exists - just made it up! but you know what i mean!) """
Just follow this link...
http://www.tarvalon.net/library/index.php?title=Sword_Forms
