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Home | Index | Archives | Help
ow to fly with the OP
by Satin alEllien Moonsong: 2004-10-02 | 1 out of 10 (4 votes)
Previous Categories: Miscellaneous
Please note that when Rand went to meet the Sea Folk, he walked to the ship on a Bridge of his own making. From this i conclude that it is possible to suspend yourself in the air but not to rise, correct?
So, if you wanted to fly, you simply make a platform of Air, step onto it, make a slightly higher platform, step onto that etc until you where as high as you wanted to be.
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2004-11-30
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
Only problem with this is that a Bridge needs to be attached at both ends. So walking on air wouldn't work using Bridges unless you had something to attach the bridge to.
Flinnd: 2004-11-30
What about making pillars of air? They'd be attached to the ground... would that give someone the ability to "levitate"??
Callandor: 2004-11-30
Simply put: with the One Power you can effect almost everything but yourself directly. You can't Heal yourself. You can't suspend yourself with the One Power.
You can make a Shield around yourself. You can channel at objects other then yourself.
Flying with the One Power, is simply an impossibility.
jaellon: 2004-11-30
Trying to pick yourself up with the power is just as impossible as trying to pick yourself up with your own arms. You just can't do it.
However, if you use specially constructed arms (i.e. wings), you can effectively pick yourself up without having to brace yourself against any object.
I imagine flying with the power would be the same way. You just have to construct wings out of solidified air (kind of like when you hold someone in place with the power).
mako0424: 2004-12-01
my theory is that
A. to fly one needs to sit or stand on something and manage to lift that up (ie a broom, haha)
B. Or flying has something to do with their mental capacity and their tendecy to semi-block themselves (ie Aes Sedai need to use alot of hand getures to complete weaves {fireball} while the Aiel Wise Ones do not) and they simply must get around their mental block.
Manetheren: 2004-12-01
I think the closest anyone can come to flying with the one power is to have two people involved, each making the other rise. I'm not sure what the limit is to lifting something off of the ground with the OP that's not yourself, but if there is no limit, seems to me two Asha'man or Aes Sedai could piggyback each other and fly whereever they want.
Stilicho: 2004-12-01
Silver Surfer, anyone? Seriously though, I think it would work without being a bridge. The books are full of examples of OP users solidifying air for various purposes, no reason to suspect that it couldn't be done to create a series of steps. The problem I see is how do you support the step? Unsupported (as a bridge, or with individual supports/columns) it will simply fall from the sky even before someone could place their weight on it. The real trick would be to discover how to give this platform of air motive force, i.e. propell it throught the air (think of Skimming, or even propelling a "physical" vehicle). I suspect it is possible (remember jo-wings from the AOL?), but I am not aware of any clues that indicate how it may work in practice. Air to ground fire support would be a wonderful thing to have available at TG (think Mat's cannons mounted on flying ships/platforms). Isn't RJ a pilot? Maybe he has some ideas.
Tamin: 2004-12-01
One person can pick another person up with the Power, neh? So if someone where to levitate, say, Narishma into the air, could he in turn lift that person? In that way flying would be possible in pairs.
steve nebraska: 2004-12-02
This does not sound like flying to me. It seems like what you are describing is simply walking up some stairs or across a bridge (although an invisible one). In which case everyone in the whole series has "flown"
Githraine: 2004-12-02
I think true 'Flying' would entail weaving some sort of 'wings' (hardened air?) and some sort of propulsion (fire and air?) And maybe creating flows of air to generate proper Lift in any condition....
a dragonburned fool: 2004-12-03
A month ago there was a discussion about the same topic on the message board (http://p079.ezboard.com /ftheorylandfrm18.showMessage?topicID=403.topic&index=30). Weird Harold had the idea that a channeler could create an "airfoil" of hardened Air (e.g. like the large shield Cadsuane used at the Cleansing), to attach herself to it and to let it be moved by the natural winds like a kite. However actually we don't know if such Air weaves can be moved by air or can a channeler attach hereself to it.
There is another thing puzzling me cabout the steps option. Usually for walking on air fo small distance AS are using the "bridges" and bridges are not simply air-platforms, because it is said in books that every channeler has limit of lenght of the bridge to create and this limit is for unknown reason unrelated to the level of OP-strenght of the channeler. Usual limitations of "hardened air" (as screent, levitating other people) is dependent of channeler's strenght. So for some reason AS use not usual Air platforms when they want to walk up in the air.
Gardener: 2004-12-05
what if the channeler created a piller that arched. like a long piller that curved from the ground as high as it had to and backdown to the ground again. It would be anchored to the ground on both ends and the chaneler could simply stand on the top, and then create another like it infront of itself and step on to that... I'm not sure if that will work but its a gues... a halfass gues.
jaellon: 2004-12-07
I don't think two people could pick each other up any easier than one person could pick himself up. The whole problem with picking yourself up is that you have nothing to brace against.
I don't see it as being any different than two people trying to physically pick each other up.
Jiana: 2004-12-07
To my frustration, I cannot participate in the online discussions due to a glitch on my end, and so have missed out on a lot! But my husband and I, both avid WoT readers, have discussed this "flying" thing before. I don't think it's possible, but he also says that it is a mental block that prevents them from flying, not any concrete hindrance, the same as with Healing a stilled or gentled person. We all know that there are a lot of things that Aes Sedai deem impossible, simply because they believe it is. My husband (let's call him Qadin) says that a channeler could possibly make themselves fly by using a platform of solidified Air, placed underneath them, and then use either Air or Fire to move the platform forward. Or they could make a weave that would control the wind to be in their favor. In that manner, they are not necessarily channeling on themselves (which in my mind is the equivalent of a surgeon operating on himself [which I might add HAS been done before]), but rather they are channeling at the platform of Air that they created. Qadin and I still argue about this, because while he has a good point, I just don't see it as a likely thing.
NargsBrood: 2004-12-08
create air pressure differences around a solidified piece of air that you stand on. bend light, change air pressure... same diff.
jason wolfbrother: 2004-12-10
Nynaeve and Siuan do it in TGH
Ch. 18 To The White Tower
**"Let me go, I say!" "And if I don't like where he is, why, I can pick him up." Nynaeve squawked furiously as she slowly rose, still in a sitting position, until her head almost touched the ceiling. The Amyrlin smiled. "I've often wished I could use this to fly. The records say Aes Sedai could fly, in the Age of Legends, but they aren't clear on how, exactly. Not this way, though. It doesn't work like that. You might reach out with your hands and pick up a chest that weighs as much as you do; you look strong. But take hold of yourself however you will, you cannot pick yourself up."
"So," the Amyrlin continued, "big, hairy man, and so forth. He can do nothing to me, while I can do anything at all to him. Why, if I had a mind to" - she leaned forward, her eyes intent on Nynaeve; suddenly her smile did not seem very friendly - "I could turn him upside down and paddle his bottom. Just like - " Suddenly the Amyrlin flew backwards so hard her head rebounded from the wall, and there she stayed, as if something were pressing against her.**
Rand and Lanfear do it in TSR
Ch. 10 The Stone Stands
**"Expect your aid?" he growled. "You want me to turn to the Shadow. You can't make me forget what you are with soft words." He channeled, and she slammed against a wall hanging hard enough to make her grunt. He held her there, spread-eagled over a woven hunting scene, feet off the floor and snowy gown spread out and flattened. How had he blocked Egwene and Elayne? He had to remember.
Suddenly he flew across the hallway to crash into the wall opposite Lanfear, pressed there like an insect by something that barely allowed him to breathe.**
so two people can lift each other up, the question is how high
Dragons Shadow: 2004-12-10
I always just thought that flight could be acheived by trying to "pick up" the ground from an independant platform not attached to the ground. It is simply a matter of relativity. i.e. The channeler is standing still, The ground is moving.
Saldean Farm Boy: 2004-12-14
Things are impossible only until they are done. Flying is possible, the tower even admits it.
I believe the lack of science makes it harder to discover new things. The one power would be a HUGE crutch in discovering new things. If they understood the dynamics of flight, how a wing works to keep a plane aloft, then I am confident the feat could be replicated with the OP. The trick is to do the research to understand the physics of it.
The Leveler: 2004-12-15
I tend to think that all you need to do is make a disk of Air, stand on it, and summon a minor windstorm to lift it/you up.
Satin alEllien Moonsong: 2004-12-19
go jason! i was looking for a quote to support this for hours! i never thought of looking in the early books! thank you!
Jay al Ender: 2004-12-22
Yeah, and healing the stilled is impossible too!
And 1 GHz was thought to be impossible too....
Oh, and transporters are supposed to be impossible, but they are doing things with the beginnings of those in quantum physics.
You just have to figure our how to do it.
I think of Strom from X-Men. She just made wind strong enough to lift her up.
Impossible is just used way to often.
Callandor: 2004-12-23
**Impossible is just used way to often.**
Ah, so men can form links without the help of women? So people can alter the course of the Pattern to whatever they wish? So anyone that dies, can come back to life?
Yes, some things that are attributed to being impossible, are in fact possible. But there are still things that simply ~CANNOT BE DONE~.
As far as we know, and every indication we have been given, a person flying with the One Power is such an impossiblity. The End.
free will: 2004-12-26
Jason wolfbrother fails to distinguish picking someone up with arms of air while being secure yourself and then using hardened air to keep them there, and the different task of each picking each other up with arms of arm without hardened air as a basis to hold in place.
As for the "lost art" of flying. I personally think that it is purely an elemental art, but it you want to stress the lostness of the art, then a presure gradient is the key to a force that moves you through the air, and if you can open enough little gateways in the right places at the right times, then you can move the air particles away from where you want to go and move them behind you to where you don't want to go, and physics takes care of the rest of that business of moving from A to B.
Clearly the "teleport the air" approach isn't gonna be done by Modern AS that can't even travel. Plus it's so obviously wasteful and extravagent, that that's why we don't see the Forsaken doing it, or even leaving weavings behind of it. It's just a wasteful way to get around, not practical compared to platforms and traveling and arms of air and such.
Also, an AS who travelled to a high altitude could then air-hang glide around, which to others would look like flying, plus aircraft could have been considered flying. But back to hang gliding, you could make parashutes out of hardened air to slow you down and all in all it would look like flying down, even if you traveled up instead of flying up.
Then there is "air glider" + "gusts of wind". In my WoT RPGs it never took very long for PCs to start doing that.
ladyvivamus: 2004-12-27
Flying is often referred to as a lost Talent. So would it be something that only a few people could do, like Foretelling and Dreaming? Or is it just a lost weave, like Travelling was? Either way, I don't think it is as simple as just a weave of air. The methods suggested here seem WAY too simple... over the past three thousand years, SOMEONE would have figured it out.
Satin alEllien Moonsong: 2004-12-31
you could say the same about cuendillar, or travelling. Aes Seadi are just too reluctant to try new things, they are too content to let things be.
Yaga Shura: 2005-02-22
My first thought when I read the line from TGH (quoted above) that says "the records say that Aes Sedai could fly in the Age of Legends, but they aren't clear on how, exactly" was that this is a reference to sho-wings, as in planes. It's all a huge joke: the third agers assume that the Aes Sedai could fly using the Power, but it doesn't say that.
Kantuna: 2005-06-04
This argument is pointless.
You could pick someone else up using air and hold them in place, while letting them pick you up, and in this way you could fly. However, it is pointless.
Just about every group knows how to travel. This is much faster than flying (Duh).
Remember that to lift somebody using the power requires certain strength, and so does making a gateway. Any pair strong enough to lift each other with the power is probably strong enough to make a gateway (After she was healed, Suian could make Gateways but no lift people.) So, if you are strong enough to fly, you don't need to.
See? Pointless.
The Dragons Advocate: 2005-06-04
Why would they need to fly? They can just travel. Muuuuuch easier.
sarutobi: 2005-06-04
MY guess on how to fly would be to create a kind of glider type thing above you and attach it to yourself. This would most likely require earth and maybe some fire and air. We know it is posible to attack things to yourself with things like the one power disguises. Then after the glider is there you can just use the wind to create gusts to propel you any which way you want. With a glider it is posible to go up if you catch the right currents so when you are able to control these currents it should be easy.
Callandor: 2005-06-05
**(After she was healed, Suian could make Gateways but no lift people.)**
No, Siuan is no where near strong enough to make a gateway without being linked to someone else.
**Why would they need to fly? They can just travel. Muuuuuch easier.**
If a channeler were on their own, with no one to link to, and needed to get places fast, flying would be a fast route (so would Portal Stones and the Ways, but that's an aside).
However, people in the Age of Legends did not channel to make themselves fly. They flew the same way we do -- through science. The BWB gives a partial explaination saying they used anti-gravity generators, but it doesn't matter anyway -- it wasn't by channeling. Channeling to lift yourself up, is impossible.
zionsrose: 2005-06-05
Kantuna, I don't think that Siuan was able to make a gateway - at least I don't remember her being mentioned as having done such. I know that you do need a certain strength to make one though- Egwene(sp) mentioned in one of the books after she became ASeat that she say two sister coming out of the travelling tent, neither one together was strong enough to form the weave but linked they could. Around Elayne and the Sea Folk another such thing was shown, Elayne needed the Sea Folk Windfinders to make gateways for her because not enough of the Kin were able to ...
-Flying with the OP, I was thinking that this might have been a popular thing, perhaps more so than we give credit in the AoL (with Ogier groves to see why not fly and get every vantage?), but with the breaking it was probably much to dangerous to fly (easy target) and the AS could have purposely gotten rid of whatever knowledge was around for it (an AS flying through the sky, with proper shielding, could also see more vantage points that they couldn't from the ground to use in an attack)
Kantuna: 2005-06-05
Sorry everyone. I thought there was a quote with Suian making a gateway in the travelling grounds in the rebel AS camp (CoT,) but I was wrong. It was Leane coming out of a different tent entirely. Guess I'd petter find some proof before I make "False Allegations" :)
By the way Callandor, does this make sense to you?
"If a channeler were on their own, with no one to link to, and needed to get places fast, flying would be a fast route (so would Portal Stones and the Ways, but that's an aside."
Just run that by me again. If a channeler is alone, then using the power to fly would be a fast route. How does a channeler fly?
"However, people in the Age of Legends did not channel to make themselves fly. They flew the same way we do -- through science. The BWB gives a partial explaination saying they used anti-gravity generators, but it doesn't matter anyway -- it wasn't by channeling. Channeling to lift yourself up, is impossible. "
So, after saying how flying with the power is a quick way of getting places, you say it's impossible to fly with the power. Why didn't you just say that in the first place?
The name of the thread is "How to fly with the One Power"
Tristin: 2005-06-05
It seems to me that if Callandor is right, and Science is responsible for Flight, that flight would still rely on the one power. Wouldn't they have most likely have used standing flows to power the planes or whatever? It seems that they used the standing flows in the place of radio waves and electricity from what I remember.
Callandor: 2005-06-05
**Just run that by me again. If a channeler is alone, then using the power to fly would be a fast route. How does a channeler fly?**
How do you fly? With an airplane. In the Age of Legends they were called So-wings. That's it.
**So, after saying how flying with the power is a quick way of getting places, you say it's impossible to fly with the power. Why didn't you just say that in the first place?**
Because it is impossible to lift yourself up with the One Power. Do me a favor -- sit down somewhere, and try to lift yourself into the air. You can't do it -- it's the same thing with the One Power.
**It seems to me that if Callandor is right, and Science is responsible for Flight, that flight would still rely on the one power. Wouldn't they have most likely have used standing flows to power the planes or whatever?**
**TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time, CHAPTER: The Wheel and the Pattern
Most short range mass transport was handled by large multi-passenger vehicles that used a type of anti-gravity technology. Jo-cars, jumpers and hoverflies had a much smaller passenger and cargo capacity. Jo-cars had a very efficient four-wheel design, or in the floater version, a type of gravitational hovercraft technology. Both jumpers and hoverflies could float suspended above the ground at various distances. The smoothly paved roads made all types of travel, both vehicular and pedestrian, more efficient.
Long range transport relied primarily on the sho-wing, an airborne vehicle available in several types and sizes. The sho-wing was capable of both short- and long-range flight, sometimes at high rates of speed. All overseas travel was done via sho-wing. The sho-wing designs were derived from a basic delta-wing pattern, which was varied to suit the specific needs of each individual purpose. Some of them were very large, capable of carrying hundreds of passengers, and some were quite small, for personal use.**
It's important to keep in mind:
**TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time, CHAPTER: The Wheel and the Pattern
With so few people able to channel, the Power had to be used selectively. ~Aes Sedai were not expected to maintain or energize machines, for instance, but rather concentrated their efforts on designing and creating the technology for them.~ Technicians and other skilled nonchannelers could then handle the construction and repair; after that, anyone could operate them. The process that enabled the great Sharom, or floating sphere of Collam Daan, to hover high above the university was discovered and refined through the use of the One Power, but the sphere was built by normal people and suspended through use of the world's own magnetic and gravitational fields.**
Narianna: 2005-06-06
but IIRC there is a mention in BWB abt the distribution of OP and the implications that the AS were expected to energise these "sources" of OP for the public.
Callandor: 2005-06-06
**but IIRC there is a mention in BWB abt the distribution of OP and the implications that the AS were expected to energise these "sources" of OP for the public.**
If you find it, post it. Until then, go with the quote I gave. Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends were focused on making the technology so that they did not have to go around to all these objects and manually channel into them like mechanics.
Dapsin: 2006-02-17
I think that the uses of the One Power can be magnified with scientific knowledge... I think that it requires fire to be weaved, as physics says heat rises...
ThunderWalker: 2006-02-18
So, jo-cars used a form of anti-gravity. And much of the technology was developed by OP users.
Channelers can bend light around themselves. Why not bend gravity around themselves, and jump. Up they go.
**All very well to know, for example, that Aligning the Matrix made metals stronger, but the woman knew less of metals than of Healing, and what under the Light was Spinning Earthfire, or for that matter, Milking Tears**
Maybe "Spinning Earthfire" is bending gravity.
If it is a Talent, the Forsaken might not be able to do it. Or maybe it is just simply hard to do. So they don't do it. Traveling is more useful for much of what they need. They don't seem to be the type of people to place themselve in the line of fire by flying around.
Callandor: 2006-02-19
**Channelers can bend light around themselves. Why not bend gravity around themselves, and jump. Up they go.**
Because some things you can weave about yourself, and other things you simply can't.
Chris Sedai: 2006-07-22
Why couldn't you make a big levitation thing (a ston circle with railings around it) that you step into and fly on? Isn't that what they did during the AoL?
Callandor: 2006-07-24
**Why couldn't you make a big levitation thing (a ston circle with railings around it) that you step into and fly on? Isn't that what they did during the AoL?**
In the Age of Legends they used their technology to fly, just like humans do now (airplanes -- sho-wings; they also had anti-gravity technology as well). Whether your suggestion works or not is not totally know, but using what we know, it's almost certain not to work because one simply cannot lift themself with the One Power.
jae: 2006-07-25
I have to say i agree with callandor here, from everything we have seen and read, it seems to be that people in AOL flew using tecnology similar to aircraft we have today and not by using to one power to propell them into the sky like superman
ThunderWalker: 2006-07-25
1) You can't lift yourself with the one power.
2) Sho-wings were airplains -- but werern't they powered by the OP (standing waves, or whatever).
3) In the AoL they could generate "anti-gravity". My impression was that all technology in the AoL ran on the OP.
I would think that (2) and (3) are good ways to work around the problem of not being able to "pick yourself up".
Make a glider -- and propell yourself with Air. You technically aren't lifting yourself -- the air is.
sit in a chair, and wrap a gravity repelling (or bending) shield around yourself and push yourelf up with air -- up you go. Again, you are not technically lifting yourself.
A lot of things done with equipment in the AoL could be done without it as well. The devices just allowed non-chanellers to take advantage of the OP methods as well.
Probably a bit dangerous, but you could probably do a "Storm" thing as well. Create a little tornado around yourself. You are guarenteed to fly. You may not live through it though. But again, you are not technically lifting yourself. The weather is.
jason wolfbrother: 2006-07-25
their is a distinction between picking someone up while you yourself are securely anchored and picking someone up while you are not. Both Nyaeve and Lanfear picked up Siuan and Rand respectively while they were securely anchored to the wall.
Furthermore while at the San Jose signing I specifically asked RJ this question. "Is it possible to fly using the OP". His answer was a short, succint, "No". End of story. sorry but I heard it from the mouth of the Creator myself.
ScorpiOve: 2006-07-26
I do not know as much of Randland and stuff but, even if they didn't fly per se in the Age of Legends, wouldn't it be possible to fly by actually lifting something you sit or stand on? Like, as mentioned above, a broom (making a nice hint back at the witches of folklore).
Or maybe the use of Earth would work somewhat to, shifting gravity (if they ever learns of it's existance).
Though with the use of skimming and travel flying isn't actually needed, not even for recon as you probably just can scry.
robbocop: 2006-07-27
Haven't heard of any one scrying in WoT before. That's a wicker thing. The one power manipulates five elemants not spiritual or dark powers. I believe the most plausable way to fly would be by wearing some ridiculous costume with wings and bring in some gail force winds to carry you. Hard to control but I think that is the most likely. Just like storm does in X-Men.
sporkify: 2006-07-29
Here's a thought- open a gateway, horizontally under yourself, having the exit point horizantally above you. Then, open another gatway under you while falling, and have the exit point above you again. This may not be flying so much as continuous falling, but it would enable a person to hover. Of course, getting out of this could be a problem.
...
...
...
thud.
Aeolus: 2006-08-11
I don't see why making a platform and standing on it conflicts with the rules of One Power use. Whilst it clearly isn't possible, or we'd have seen it happen by now, I think it's a dodgy area of Jordan's science - only because we've seen other instances where the channeler touches his own power-wrought objects. The main example of this is, of course, Rand's sword that he channels into existence frequently throughout books 2, 3 and 4. He holds that sword and wields it using his hands - which is at odds with the concept that you can't interact physically with your own power creation. In any case, you could fly by channeling Air to create a powerful vacuum above and in front of you, thus allowing resulting changes in surrounding air pressure to lift you. No need to touch the Power then.
Callandor: 2006-08-13
**I don't see why making a platform and standing on it conflicts with the rules of One Power use. Whilst it clearly isn't possible, or we'd have seen it happen by now, I think it's a dodgy area of Jordan's science - only because we've seen other instances where the channeler touches his own power-wrought objects.**
One can stand on "platforms" of the Power. For instance, Elayne's freezed wire that she performs on on The Fires of Heaven, and most importantly Rand's bridge that he makes in A Crown of Swords.
It might seem "dodgy" but really it's just more in line with one the rules of nature. One just cannot pick themself up with the One Power, while they can with other weaves weave about themself, and walk on weaves. Just can't do it.
Aeolus: 2006-08-14
Call, if you can stand on a platform of the Power then why not stand on a moving platform of the Power?
CyberFade: 2006-08-14
The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time or BWB isn't considered canon by Jordan. Or we can consider it as canon until he decides to do something different from it.
I forget who was talking about Sho-Wings and similar in the series, but I got a sense that at least some of them are genetically engineered living creatures. That might be wrong since the aircraft Rand saw in Rhuidean's rings were more along the lines of Herbert's descriptions in Dune (the ones used on Arrakis--hoversomething that are like giant insects).
I put some of it into the general 3rd age Aes Sedai tautology: it's impossible because we think it's impossible and won't bother working on it. But I also don't think Jordan wants people flying around say carpet bombing cities or armies either, Channelers can already do enough crazy things.
Technology of the Age of Legends is weird. On the one hand you have a near infinitely useful tool (the power) that is inexhaustible. Their knowledge of natural processes was certainly greater than the 3rd Agers from what we see of the Forsaken (and what's on that library ter'angreal that Elayne will probably leave to sit around and gather dust?). But with the OP and ter'angreal that can do seemingly anything and be useable by everyone, using something like magnetic fields to do something is going to be trickier and more wasteful than something using the power. (Or Jordan has made some dumb decisions, but stick out so much as some of the doozies in the BWB.)
Anubis: 2006-08-14
Does the "platform" need to be attached to anything? I can't recal any evidence for or against but I also can't think of any examples of a platform not being attached to anything either. Guess this is a job for the quotemasters.
Anubis: 2006-08-15
**In any case, you could fly by channeling Air to create a powerful vacuum above and in front of you, thus allowing resulting changes in surrounding air pressure to lift you.**
Ever been in an airplane? You know how your ears pop as you move from high pressure to low? Imagine that entire experiance compressed into about two seconds. I don't think that method is going to be used.
Callandor: 2006-08-15
**Call, if you can stand on a platform of the Power then why not stand on a moving platform of the Power?**
Because you just can't. I'm sorry. We're given no other information then just that -- it is simply impossible.
**I forget who was talking about Sho-Wings and similar in the series, but I got a sense that at least some of them are genetically engineered living creatures. That might be wrong since the aircraft Rand saw in Rhuidean's rings were more along the lines of Herbert's descriptions in Dune (the ones used on Arrakis--hoversomething that are like giant insects).**
It's Jordan being descriptive. They're not actually large insects used as craft of course; that's just the way Rand would describe it since he has no other words for it. It's mechanical technology.
Aeolus: 2006-08-16
Anubis, I know we're not going to see it happen - just pointing out a physical possibility.
Call - but we haven't been explicitly told that standing on a moving platform of Air is impossible, have we? Therefore it's fair to assume it is possible. If you want to declare that it is not you must give evidence why, or else admit that it is your opinion that it is not possible. If there is a passage from the book where a character tries and fails or declares it impossible, I will stand corrected of course.
Farzon: 2006-08-16
Everyone in the books keep mentioning that you can't pick yourself up. That's obviously true. But flight isn't accomplished with pulling. When you jump, you are PUSHING off of the ground. When birds fly, their wings are pushing the air downward. When helicopters and other VTOL craft take off, they're pushing air downward.
I would think that they could Fly by just using a concentrated jet of Air. They don't have to be aerodynamic, or even rocket shaped. Helicopters and VTOL aircraft are certainly not aerodynamic along the vertical axis. And after takeoff, it'd just be a matter of balancing the flow of Air properly, like the old video game where you have the moon lander and the directional jets. At most, I would think that there'd be an addition of Fire to increase the propulsion, and maybe Earth for the initial boost.
The use of Flying when you can Travel is not as a mode of transportation, but to gain higher ground. They can target things better, avoid arrows, and increase the range of their thrown fireballs. Not to mention the use of propaganda which the Aes Sedai have only begun to grasp with Illusion. A flying someone is always more impressive than one not.
rand: 2006-08-16
About the AOL, is that like a future or present day earth? It has planes and cars and guns (shock lances). But we don't have the Power or stasis boxes. Also the lands all seem to match various countries or areas in our world (eg. Tear= Spain, Cairhien= France, and Arad Doman= Middle East, to name just a few)Just thinking.
LOL :) Rand
Callandor: 2006-08-16
**Call - but we haven't been explicitly told that standing on a moving platform of Air is impossible, have we?**
When Jordan says that it's impossible to fly with the One Power, yes it is said to be impossible. Look again to JWB's quote:
**Furthermore while at the San Jose signing I specifically asked RJ this question. "Is it possible to fly using the OP". His answer was a short, succint, "No". End of story. sorry but I heard it from the mouth of the Creator myself.**
This is further backed up by the books themselves if you doubt it.
Try to think of anyway around it, and I'll just point right back to that. It is impossible to fly with the One Power. Period. Jordan isn't leaving any room for doubt here. He's asked flat out if it is possible to fly with the One Power and he gives the simple, with no loophole possibility, answer: No.
So, again, try as you might to think of any possible way to make yourself rationalize that it is possible, I don't care. I'll still point back to that quote by Jordan and at least two others in the books where it's stated to be impossible to fly with the One Power.
**If you want to declare that it is not you must give evidence why, or else admit that it is your opinion that it is not possible.**
Again, you must read the entire thread if you want the evidence.
AnotherForsaken: 2006-08-16
About flying with the one power, i believe there is a quote that shows Ishmael could fly:
Rand stared up at where the lightning had come from. There was a deeper shadow up ther, near the top of the columns, a blackness that made all other shadows look like noonday, and from it two eyes of fire stared back at him.
slowly the shadow descended, resolving into Ba'alzamon, clothed in dead black, like a Myrddraal's black. Yet even that was not so dark as the shadow that clung to him. He hung in the air, two spans above the floor, glaring at Rand with a rage as fierce as his eyes
tDR, Ch. 55 "what is written in Prophecy"
thats certainly sounds like hes floating in midair, then slowly drops, if you can go down, surely you can go up. He cant be in t'a'r because, moiraine is there, as are the aiel and soldiers. of course, it says the shadow decended, but i would guess that it was a MoM like how semmy looked to be made of fire, when she spoke to Suroth in KoD. and even if he was using the true power, hasnt RJ said that you can do the same things with the TP and the OP, just different methods. the only thing that i can think of to disprove he was flying would be to say maybe he just had some steps of air, like a bridge and just walked down it to a platform two spans above the floor, but its now how it sounds to me.
a little fuel for the fire ;)
Anubis: 2006-08-16
**Anubis, I know we're not going to see it happen - just pointing out a physical possibility. **
I feel the need to again clarify that anyone using this method would be in too much pain or otherwise incapacitated to continue using the method. Of course, if a person were to make a bubble of air around themselves, and maintain constant pressure in that bubble, and then use your method, I could see it working without too many consequences. Guess I didn't give the idea the thought it really deserved. Happens.
**About the AOL, is that like a future or present day earth?**
In the WOT universe the present day earth is intended to be an age on the wheel, though it would seem to to be far removed from present randland time.
Jaerom: 2006-08-17
Ok, so maybe I'm a little late to this topic, but here goes;
I think that with regard to flying with the OP, the flows act like that are apendages actually attached to your body, like extra arms (anybody ever seen the anime Elfen Lied?) etc.
This explains why you cannot lift yourself up, no matter your strenght in the Power. My theory is that if you could create a bar/point/whatever of solid air in front of you, use these "Arms" to grab it and either launch youself through the air in big jumps, or in much smaller distances, which would require much faster channeling.
I think that no matter which method was used (fast/slow), the process couldn't be maintained for any great time.
This is my first post, I welcome comments!
Karede: 2006-08-17
It is somewhat of a future earth. Don't forget, the wheel of time is just that... a wheel. Everything is intended to be cyclical. Authors gain inspiration from all areas, so if things resemble things in our modern world, then you have just identified where some of Jordan's ideas come from.
AK-Edge: 2008-01-14
First off: I completely agree and acknowledge that you CANNOT FLY WITH THE OP. End of story.
Until hearing it from RJ I was still hopeful, however.
Example:
Pick someone else up. You can only pick them up as much as your arms will extend upwards. The OP isn't restricted like that. The OP IS restricted by strength, however. Someone weak can pick up a person, while a strong person could lift an X-Wing out of a bog on Dagobah...=p.
So, until RJ said that it was impossible, the only plausible explanation was the two-person theory.
In regards to that...what was the exact wording of your question jason?
Is it possible to fly with the OP?
or
Is it possible to make yourself fly with the OP?
I know it's a nitpicky question, but it makes all the difference.
Catalyst: 2008-01-21
That X-Wing part...
Read again TSR, the part when Rand walks among the glass columns and sees "sho-wings" (this was the termin, if I remember correctly), and it was a flying... something. A ter'angreal, maybe, but still made with the power.
Somewhere in my wild mind I imagined the Asha'man inventing something like the thing that the Green Goblin uses (a villain from Spider-man).
Just think on it.
falling leaf: 2008-01-21
I think to fly with the one power might mean to fly with a machine powered by the one power or created by it. i do not have the exact quotes but in the fourth book when we experience the flashbacks we see some soldiers on the back of what may be a flying device
Dragon Tamer: 2008-01-24
I do not actually believe you can fly with the one power. Of all the people in the AOL, the forsaken and LT were the most knowledgeable in the power, and not only do we never see them fly, they never even mention (in my recollection) seeing someone else fly or doing it themselves. It seems to me that Asmodean would have tried to teach that to al'Thor as well as us seeing one of the forsaken doing it. The closest we see is when Ishamael comes down from the ceiling at tear, and he could have made a stairway leading up there or something for all we know. The only other time someone flies is Egwene in the world of dreams, and that was not with the power.
Wheezy: 2008-01-28
If flying is lost to AOL how come the forsaken never fly? They should know how to, right?
AK-Edge: 2008-02-01
The closest thing mentioned to the possibility of it IN the books is in The Dragon Reborn when Moiraine is talking about Rand booking it to Tear. (After that one Tinker chick dies when Rand & Co. are with all the Sheinarens.
"Let's hope he hasn't re-discovered how to fly, or make himself invisible, or some other thing lost to legend."
Because it's in context here, we assume that it's possible. But again, as RJ has stated in his over-writing statements about the question, you cannot fly with the OP. People in the 3rd age believe it's 'possible' due to the few and far between translations of records from the AOL. These records are most likely referring to the "Sho-Wings" referenced in TSR.
A note on the Sho-Wings...they are powered by the OP...like...gas powers your car...but aren't constructs of the OP like a flame made of OP, or lightning made of OP. Just...metal...powered by OP.
Marie Curie 7: 2008-02-03
AK-Edge:
"A note on the Sho-Wings...they are powered by the OP...like...gas powers your car...but aren't constructs of the OP like a flame made of OP, or lightning made of OP. Just...metal...powered by OP."
Sho-wings were not powered by the One Power - they used anti-gravity technology. From the BWB:
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TITLE - The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time, CHAPTER: 3 - The Age of Legends
Most short range mass transport was handled by large multi-passenger vehicles that used a type of anti-gravity technology. Jo-cars, jumpers and hoverflies had a much smaller passenger and cargo capacity. Jo-cars had a very efficient four-wheel design, or in the floater version, a type of gravitational hovercraft technology. Both jumpers and hoverflies could float suspended above the ground at various distances. The smoothly paved roads made all types of travel, both vehicular and pedestrian, more efficient.
Long-range transport relied primarily on the sho-wing, an air-borne vehicle available in several types and sizes. The sho-wing was capable of both short- and long-range flight, sometimes at high rates of speed. All overseas travel was done via sho-wing. The sho-wing designs were derived from a basic delta-wing pattern, which was varied to suit the specific needs of each individual purpose. Some of them were very large, capable of carrying hundreds of passengers, and some were quite small, for personal use.
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Dragon Tamer: 2008-02-04
The sho-wings would be powered by a ter'angreal battery of some kind. RJ says that Aes Sedai made the technology so why not OP batteries that would fed the necessary power to the sho-wings.
AK-Edge: 2008-02-05
Pardon the crude quote...still new and not sure how to do the fancy one =p.
"Sho-wings were not powered by the One Power - they used anti-gravity technology. From the BWB:"
This is where we might have to agree to disagree Marie. I understand that some things in the BWB are correct, but it's been stated numerous times that Jordan doesn't consider the BWB canon. IMO, this is one of those times where it's wrong.
If Randland is cyclical, then it's safe to assume that there were plenty of channelers in the AOL to help with the powering of sho-wings. No war in the AOL to take them out (like 3rd age Whitecloaks). I mean, hell, Lews Therin and his troupe of 113 were a small group of JUST MEN who rebelled.
"A group of powerful young male Aes Sedai, vocal in their arguements (apparently to the point of several times disrupting meetings of the Hall), had formed in support of Lews Therin during the struggle with Latra Posae, a group popularly called the Hundred Companions, though in actuality they numbered one hundred and thirteen at this point."
The majority was against them. Even taking math in it's purest form, if 113 is the minority, then there is at LEAST 227 Aes Sedai total. However, later on in The Strike at Shayol Ghul...
"By the time the taint on saidin was discovered, hundreds more male Aes Sedai had been driven mad, and what remained of civilization after the war itself had fallen into chaos."
So that's another at LEAST 200 Aes Sedai...still, just men. If we assume that men and women are roughly equal, then the barebones minimum number of Aes Sedai in the AOL is 630. If you go on JUST that information.
It's my belief, however, that there was a few thousand. As exampled:
"NS,Ch3 - The White Tower has rooms to house three thousand Aes Sedai, but only four hundred and twenty-three are in residence with twice that number out in the world."
and:
**TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time, CHAPTER: The Wheel and the Pattern
``With so few people able to channel, the Power had to be used selectively.`` Aes Sedai were not expected to maintain or energize machines, for instance, but rather concentrated their efforts on designing and creating the technology for them. Technicians and other skilled nonchannelers could then handle the construction and repair; after that, anyone could operate them. The process that enabled the great Sharom, or floating sphere of Collam Daan, to hover high above the university was discovered and refined through the use of the One Power, but the sphere was built by normal people and suspended through use of the world's own magnetic and gravitational fields.**
Those two statements contradict each other, and I take New Spring over BWB. In that NS quote it says there's around 850 total Aes Sedai in the 3rd age. With as much as all of the Aes Sedai cry about dwindling numbers, and the fact that the tower can hold 3000 of them...I'd say there were PLENTY of people who could channel in th AOL. If you use that 3rd age "equation" of twice as many out in the world as in the Tower, that's 6000 Aes Sedai. That's a HUGE number.
As for how they're powered...I don't think the BWB should be taken as canon here. And I know that this is one of those situations where we are just choosing what to believe, and I'm taking the option to believe that the BWB is wrong in this case.
Like I said at the beginning...we might have to agree to disagree =p.
AK-Edge: 2008-02-06
My apologies..in my zeal to explain myself in my last post, I completely forgot to include the end result theory =p.
I believe the sho-wings were powered by battery ter-angreal which is why they could be operated by anyone. My main reason for not believing the BWB in this case is it saying
"Since there were so few people capable of channeling.", while talking about this subject. To me, the 6000ish Aes Sedai in the AOL were more than "few people". The BWBs innaccuracies there make me think it's innaccurate about how Sho-Wings were powered. If RJ has some statement somehwere I'm missing, please link it. I'd rather know for sure if I'm wrong than just theorize that I'm right. =p
-Edge
abzville1115: 2008-02-08
Just use simple physics and bernoullis equation.
Since you can control air, then create a slight vaccuum above you or in teh direction that you want to move.
As a response, the surrounding air or ur body will be pushed into this vaccuum to seal it up. Just continue this and you will fly in any direction you want
But you must be very careful that you dont remove too much air, the amount of pressure will either give u the bends or will just cause you to pop :D.
R J had a minor in physics. He'd know.
timmooo: 2008-02-09
AnotherForsaken. What you said about Ishamael flying would be probably be incorrect. As Moridin who we know is Ishamael he has the saa from continuous use of the TS (true source). Therefore it is far more likely that he used the TS to enable his flying as the TP is a corrosion of the OP.
Murandy: 2008-02-14
YOu can't pick yourself up so you can technically fly but some people will have an extra talent in any talent. Like some people can use Portal Stones, come can use or make terangreal. Its just someone who is extremely good at that particular talent. Like Semirhage with Healing. She may be able to heal herself. She came from the Age of Legends so I think the power is different back then. Like you could sheild around yourself. So it is an extra talent not everyone can do that is why it is a lost talent or weave
Marie Curie 7: 2008-02-26
AK-Edge:
"This is where we might have to agree to disagree Marie. I understand that some things in the BWB are correct, but it's been stated numerous times that Jordan doesn't consider the BWB canon. IMO, this is one of those times where it's wrong."
I don't think it's quite correct to say that RJ didn't consider the BWB to be canon. Yes, the BWB is known to include some inaccuracies, but it was deliberately created that way in order to mimic a historical compilation based upon limited sources of information. From the BWB preface:
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TITLE - The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time, Preface
This compilation of the world's geography, sociology, and history uses information dating from the earliest available records of the Age of Legends through the current era.
Reliable sources are limited. Almost all documents from before the War of the Hundred Years survive only as copies, or copies of copies, etc., and thus may well include mistakes made by the scribes. Few complete books or manuscripts of any kind survive from the War of the Hundred Years. The earlier period, from the end of the Trolloc Wars to the end of the War of the Hundred Years, left even less. All information from the time of the Breaking of the World to the end of the Trolloc Wars was pulled from manuscript fragments of varying sizes, sometimes not even consisting of consecutive pages. No books or manuscripts have yet been found dating from before the Breaking. All the information from the Age of Legends is based on documents from the first few centuries after the Breaking, when the writers might have had access to sources that had survived.
Wherever possible, the information has been at least partially verified by writings contemporary with their contents, but the older a document or manuscript, the harder it is to date the pages precisely.
Some difficulties arise not from age or verifiability, but from problems of translation, for the older documents were written primarily or completely in the Old Tongue. Within the Old Tongue, as all scholars know, words have variable meanings, and some meanings have shifted to varying degrees over time.
The authors hope that the reader will forgive the occasional inaccuracy that may arise within these pages and relish instead the immense diversity and energy within the legacy of the Pattern and the World of the Wheel.
-----------
Generally, the "unreliable" information in the BWB is noted in some way, such as a statement that the particular information is from a fragment of a manuscript of dubious authenticity, or some such. In addition, we can judge material from the BWB as unreliable if we have conflicting evidence from the series. The section of the BWB that discusses sho-wings and other technology from the Age of Legends is not labeled in such a way, and we have no conflicting evidence from the series. Thus, I don't see why anyone would believe the BWB to be unreliable in this case. What little information we have from the series matches the BWB's description of sho-wings, though the power source of the sho-wings is not mentioned except in the BWB.
"Those two statements contradict each other, and I take New Spring over BWB. In that NS quote it says there's around 850 total Aes Sedai in the 3rd age. With as much as all of the Aes Sedai cry about dwindling numbers, and the fact that the tower can hold 3000 of them...I'd say there were PLENTY of people who could channel in th AOL. If you use that 3rd age "equation" of twice as many out in the world as in the Tower, that's 6000 Aes Sedai. That's a HUGE number."
The statements from New Spring and the BWB do not contradict one another. Sure, there were lots of people in the Age of Legends that could channel, but the population at that time was also much greater than that of the Third Age. And your statement that 6000 is a huge number is relative - is 6000 a huge number compared to 600,000 or 6,000,000? The point that the BWB makes is that the percentage of people who could channel in the Age of Legends was very small. RJ actually gives us an idea of the number of channelers in the Age of Legends:
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Tor Question of the Week
Questions from December 23rd, 2003 - April 20th, 2004
But he also operates under a constraint that did not exist in the Age of Legends. At that time, about 3% of the population could learn to channel to some extent, though not all chose to -- the training program took time, and being able to channel carried with it certain obligations that not everyone wanted to undertake -- but that still meant there were, at a minimum, hundreds of thousands of people in the world who could channel, and more likely millions. A large pool of possible recruits. Break a tool or decide it isn't working right and throw it out, because there is an endless supply of similar tools waiting on the shelf. That might be said to have been his attitude. In the here-and-now of the books, that figure is about 1%, and of that 1%, very, very few have any idea that they could learn to channel, much less have any training at all. Here-and-now, the pool of possible recruits is tiny.
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According to RJ, there were at least hundreds of thousands of people who could channel in the Age of Legends. However, that was still only about 3% of the population, and channeling strengths follow a bell curve, so some of them were quite weak and probably couldn't do much if anything. At any rate, the percentage of the population that could channel was very low, and that is why the One Power had to be used selectively, as indicated in the BWB.
"As for how they're powered...I don't think the BWB should be taken as canon here. And I know that this is one of those situations where we are just choosing what to believe, and I'm taking the option to believe that the BWB is wrong in this case."
~shrug~ You can believe that the BWB is wrong in this case if you want, obviously, but there's no evidence to support that.
Marie Curie 7: 2008-02-26
timmooo:
"AnotherForsaken. What you said about Ishamael flying would be probably be incorrect. As Moridin who we know is Ishamael he has the saa from continuous use of the TS (true source). Therefore it is far more likely that he used the TS to enable his flying as the TP is a corrosion of the OP."
Sorry, but you don't have your definitions of the True Source and the True Power correct. The saa are not a result of continuous use of the True Source. The One Power is drawn from the True Source. From the BWB:
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TITLE - The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time, CHAPTER: 1 - The Wheel and the Pattern
The Great Wheel is the very heart of all time. But even the Wheel requires energy to maintain itself and its pattern. This energy comes from the True Source, from which the One Power may be drawn. Both the True Source and the One Power are made up of two conflicting yet complementary parts: saidin, the male half, and saidar, the female half. Working both together and against one another within the True Source, it is saidin and saidar which provide the driving force that turns the Wheel of Time.
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The source of the True Power, on the other hand, is the Dark One:
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TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 20 - Patterns Within Patterns
The watcher followed and listened. They had no idea. The True Power, drawn directly from the Great Lord, could neither be seen nor detected except by who wielded it. Black flecks floated across his vision. There was a price, to be sure, one that grew with each use, but he had always been willing to pay the price when it was necessary. Being filled with the True Power was almost like kneeling beneath Shayol Ghul, basking in the Great Lord's glory. The glory was worth the pain.
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Thus, it is continued use of the True Power from the Dark One that leads to the saa (not the True Source):
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TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 13 - Wonderful News
Demandred flinched in spite of himself. That had been the True Power; he had felt nothing. A black speck floated across Moridin's blue eyes, then another, in a steady stream. The man must have been using the True Power exclusively since he last saw him to gain so many saa so quickly. He himself had never touched the True Power except at need. Great need. Of course, only Moridin had that privilege now, since his . . . anointing. The man truly was insane to use it so freely. It was a drug more addictive than saidin, more deadly than poison.
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Realnow: 2008-07-16
Someone mentioned jo-wings and the fact they were used for flying. I'm fairly certain that while maybe they were discovered through the OP (99% of things were in AoL), the modern name would probably be an airplane.
Marie Curie 7: 2008-07-18
Realnow:
"Someone mentioned jo-wings and the fact they were used for flying. I'm fairly certain that while maybe they were discovered through the OP (99% of things were in AoL), the modern name would probably be an airplane."
Yes, I think that the other replies have already covered this. First, there are two types of vehicles mentioned from the Age of Legends: jo-cars and sho-wings (not "jo-wings"). Second, the BWB (as quoted previously) tells us that jo-cars could be either ground vehicles with wheels (something like buses) or floating vehicles (something like hovercraft)); there also were similar vehicles called jumpers and hoverflies. And finally, the BWB also tells us that sho-wings were air transport vehicles with a "delta wing" design (i.e., something like our aircraft).
Lan: 2008-07-30
I believe that the answer as to whether or not one can fly DIRECTLY as a result of the OP is no.
However, I can think of a number of methods which might allow a channeler to use the OP. We know that air can be made solid, so if someone were to create a large enough solid object out of air, then heat the air in the center they could potentially fly as if attached to a balloon. Thus, they would not be simply exerting a force and flying, they would have a construct which would allow them to fly.
This seems like it would be complicated to do, but emminently possible, IMHO.