hanneling and the Void
by Drath: 2005-04-28 | 4.27 out of 10 (11 votes)
My there is this...
The Void is directly tied to a man's ability to channel.
Here is my reasoning...and i will address all concerns at the end.
1. Rand. Maybe not at first, but not long after Rand begins to channel he uses the Flame and the Void before any channeling attempt.
2. In book 2, i believe, Selene tells Rand that he should stay in the Oneness all the time, that he'd find uses for it that he had never thought of...or something to that effect.
3. When Taim tests for the ability to channel in a man...the test consists of a flame that you must concentrate on...oddly like the flame that Rand concentrates on and feeds his emotions into...the flame which neither Perrin or Mat, two non-channelers, can't do.
4. The similarity to women's channeling. Women are taught to imagine a flowerbud opening and to let there emotions flow out of them as it does so...the connection is to the focus points, the flower and the flame, relieving them of their emotions.
5. This connects to number 4- Women SUBMIT to saidar, that's how they control it...it's very tranquil and serene...men have to SIEZE Saidin, they have to fight for control of it...A flowerbud is peaceful...a Flame is raging...very interesting indeed.
Now onto the concerns. I know Tam and Lan can do the Flame and the Void. Yet, neither of them channel. All this really says is that as far as we know, they can not. We have no direct evidence that they can't.
Let me put it this way. Lan, Tam, Rand, Perrin, Mat. 5 people...two of whom can do the void, two who can not, and one who can do the void and uses it to channel. We know for a fact, through interviews with RJ, and i'm sorry i can't produce the quotes, but MAT CAN NOT CHANNEL. Mat can't do the void...can't channel. Rand can do the void...can channel. To my knowledge, Lan, Tam, and Perrin have no direct evidence against them to prove they can not channel.
All i'm saying is this. Men who can use the flame and void have at least the CAPACITY to channel. Not all will channel eventually, but are able to learn.
You cannot rate theories without first logging in. Please
log in.
1
Tamyrlin: 2005-05-01
Interesting idea, being able to use the flame and the void, is an indication that an individual can learn to channel..."Concentrate on the flame," Taim said. "You are the flame; the world is the flame; there is nothing but the flame." "Don't feel nothing but an ache starting in my eyes," Darner muttered, wiping sweat from his forehead with the back of a rough, callused hand." And here, "It was an odd thing Tam had taught him. Concentrate on a single flame and feed all your passions into it - fear, hate, anger - until your mind became empty. Become one with the void, Tam said, and you could do anything." And this, "It was so easy, now. The flame consumed fear and passion and was gone almost before he thought to form it. Gone, leaving only emptiness, and shining saidin, sickening, tantalizing, stomach-turning, seductive." I am not completely convinced, you might seek out some additional quotes, however, from what I pulled and posted here, there does seem to be a connection between the testing Taim uses and the technique Rand uses to get into a mindset through which he is able to control Saidin. You have me leaning your way...is there anything else in the books that would support your case more fully?
2
Callandor: 2005-05-02
**The Void is directly tied to a man's ability to channel.**
Not quite.
Q: Does anyone within the books have the ability to use the flame and the Void?
A: The flame and the void is a concentration aid and you do not have to be able to channel to do it.**
It's just a concentration trick. However, it more than likely is a requirement for channelers to focus on something to tap into the One Power. Whether this is the Flame and the Void, or some other variation (Aes Sedai test with rivers, flowers, bushes, etc), they almost certainly need the concentration aid.
However, simply being able to do it, does not make you a channeler. A non-channeler like Lan can do the Void perfectly naturally -- he doesn't need to it just helps him.
Basically, to go out on a limb, all channelers need the concentration technique to help them channel, but not everyone who has the technique is a channeler.
3
Merk: 2005-05-02
I don't know. I don't think it really has anything to do with it other than a mental exercise that calms and prepares your mind, an inner peace that is useful whether trying to grab saidin (Rand) or shoot an arrow with accuracy (Tam).
Like you said, there are two people who do it that don't channel (Tam and Lan). I don't think we're going to suddenly find out they can, or could be taught or whatever.
And when does it say Perrin and Mat *can't* do it? I thought they just *didn't* do it, which is different. Did it say somewhere that they'd tried and hadn't been able to?
On the saidin/saidar comparison, I think the women open to saidar as the flower and as they open it fills them. I think Rand goes for the void, feeding stuff into the flame, but then reaching for and struggling to grapple with saidin is a different act. Again seeming like it is a mind-clearing exercise, not an act actually part of accessing saidin.
4
Aiel Finn: 2005-05-02
Callandor, I believe what he is saying is that those who can use the
Void are at least potential channelers. The only proof of this would be someone trying to teach the Void to some of the failed BT recruits.
5
JakOShadows: 2005-05-02
Drath:
I don't think your theory is quite correct, rather I think it has something with how good of a fighter they are in general. You notice the people who can channel and use a weapon can reach some sort calm spot when under stress. You notice that when you see Mat's point of view or Lan's point of view, that they aren't thinking about the different moves. Rather, it just seems to happen like its second nature and the actual actions aren't thought about much. For a good example, read the chapter in WH where he's tracking the Ashaman and he gets ambushed. It almost seems like he's thinking in third person at that point. The flame is just a focus point that can be used in that situation.
6
JakOShadows: 2005-05-02
Sorry, in that last example, I'm talking about Rand when he's in Far Madding.
7
bigjellybeans: 2005-05-03
The void technique as many have said already on this thread is purely for the concentration of opening to the power. For all we know there could be some Joe Randland that imagines a sandwich when he tries to gain the source. The flame and void is just the technique that Rand was taught since he was a child by Tam and thats how he choses to seize saidin
8
Callandor: 2005-05-03
**Callandor, I believe what he is saying is that those who can use the Void are at least potential channelers. The only proof of this would be someone trying to teach the Void to some of the failed BT recruits.**
Yes, I know, but that arguement is inheritantly flawed by RJ's answer. Anyone can use the Void -- it's not just for channelers and potential channelers.
9
Elan Morin Tedronai 21: 2005-05-05
In EotW, Rand tells Lan about Tam teaching him the flame and the void when he's receiving his first sword lessons. IIRC, Lan says it's quite common up in the borderlands where they call it the ko'di(or something like that), but there aren't massive amounts of male channellers coming out of the borderlands, so I don't think you necessarily have to be a channeller or potential one just to be able to learn the void. I think it's simply that Perrin and Mat were never taught it since their fathers never left the Two Rivers.
10
Jaim Farstrider: 2005-05-13
Hmm... Nope, I don't buy that theory. The void does seem to be an aid of concentration just as the others have said, however this theory has got me thinking that there is perhaps a link between the void and the dark ones prison as I vaguely recall someone referring to the D.O. prison as a void, this may seem a bit far fetched but... anyway, didn't asmodean say you can develop the void further.. just a thought.
11
JakOShadows: 2005-05-13
Jaim, I'm just wondering how this could be used. It could be used to create a new prison, but thats the only use I see for it. If you can think of why it could be useful, I would be interested to know.
12
Jaim Farstrider: 2005-05-15
Ok, I'm going to go run the risk of looking like a fool here, but my guess is that with the help of Logain and a few friends' Rand will fake his death. Logain will take on the responsibilities of being the champion of the light, in doing so gaining his glory; this of course will be a feint to draw eyes away from Rand who will be heading to see his buddy the DO. Since I believe the reason the seals failed this time is because only Saidin was used, so perhaps he will be going with an Aes Sedai. I also believe that the DO counterstroke was also used to gradually weaken the seals as well as tainting the source, and it seems pretty obvious that Rand has to destroy all the seals in order to seal the bore in the DO prison. Remember Fel's note to Rand?
- “Belief and order bring strength, have to clear the rubble before you can build” (LOC – Thorns)
To me, the note means that not only must the seals be destroyed, but also both halves of the one power must be used to seal the bore. You might be asking what's all this got to do with the void??? Well, this is where I run the risk of looking a fool, but my belief (for now) is that Rand will travel in the guise of a beggar with a female companion and for some reason he will be blindfolded or blind, now he will use this more advanced form of the void to “feel” his way to the pit of doom, seal the bore break the wheel of time in so doing end the cycle of the dark one breaking free so that time become linear – this will be the last battle between Rand and the DO. Hmmm I wonder if they can still channel afterward... anyway I think it going to take longer than two books...
