a'Veren and Travelling
by RogueSavior: 2005-06-06 | 3.4 out of 10 (20 votes)
Straight to the point.
A male channeler bores through the pattern, which we know because Moghedien tells us so:
TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 37 - When Battle Begins
"Egwene moved closer to Moghedien. The other woman was taller, but she cowered back against the table, knocking over the winecups on their tray and rocking the pitcher. Egwene made her voice cold; it did not have far to go. "The day I detect one lie out of you is the day I execute you myself. Now. I have considered traveling from one place to another by boring a hole, so to speak, from here to there. A hole through the Pattern, so there's no distance between one end and the other. How well will that work?"
“Not at all, for you or any woman,” Momghedien said, breathless and quick. The fear that boiled inside was plain on her face now. “That is how men Travel.” The capital was plain; she was speaking of one of the lost Talents. “If you try, you will be sucked into.... I don't know what it is. The space between the threads of the Pattern, maybe. I don't think you would live very long. I know you would never come back.”
So, when Rand travels, he bores through the fabric of the pattern. Ta'veren affect the pattern around them, which we know because of :
TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 22 – Watchers
"No. No, but. . . ." He was recovering himself, building his walls again. But they were not rebuilt yet. "How many times have you said that ta'veren pull those around them like twigs in a whirlpool? Perhaps I was pulled, too. I only know that it felt right. Those farm folk needed someone on their side. Rand did, at least. Moiraine, I believe in what you do, even as now, when I know not half of it; believe as I believe in you. I have not asked to be released from my bond, nor will I. Whatever your plans for dying and seeing me safely - disposed of - I will take great pleasure in keeping you alive and seeing those plans, at least, go for nothing."
And because of:
TITLE: Eye of the World CHAPTER: GLOSSARY
"ta'veren (rah-VEER-ehn): A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps all life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny. See also Pattern of an Age."
When Rand travels, therefore, he theoretically moves quickly through several thousand ‘threads', which belong to other people. Enough traveling around the world, and this exposure to his ta'veren-ness would ‘pull' the threads of those he bored near. Which would cause effects similar to those he caused in his travels to Tear:
TITLE: The Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 8 – Jarra
"Not his madness," Moiraine said, "if he is far enough gone yet to be called mad. Perrin, he is more strongly ta'veren than anyone since the Age of Legends. Yesterday, in this village, the Pattern . . . moved, shaped itself around him like clay shaped on a mold. The weddings, the Whitecloaks, these were enough to say Rand had been here, for anyone who knew to listen."
However, these would not be the only effects, or even necessarily be the exact effects. The effects are just along these lines – like... say... the abundance of Dragonsworn turned Bandits? They get a quick ‘hit' of ta'veren, and then are left on their own. Like Drug Addicts, they seek out this fix – Rand al'Thor, the Dragon. Also like drug addicts, they do whatever is necessary to retrieve said fix, in most cases, turning to Banditry.
However again, not all of these effects are ‘bad', as the Dragonsworn Bandits undoubtedly are. Like the marriages from TDR, there would undoubtedly be small miracles taking place as Rand zips from place to place.
In short, Rand's Traveling is ‘pulling' all of the Threads in the Age Lace.
You cannot rate theories without first logging in. Please
log in.
1
Tamyrlin: 2005-06-11
In short, you are suggesting male Ta'veren using Traveling have a stronger effect on the threads of the Pattern, than a male Ta'veren who doesn't Travel. It is hard to disprove or prove, since Ta'veren already affect the threads of the Pattern. When you say Rand is "pulling" what do you mean? See if you can't explain in more detail exactly what the difference in effect between a male Ta'veren that doesn't use Traveling and one that does.
2
Anubis: 2005-06-11
I think its a moot point and heres why. Rand is traveling from Tear to Andor. Right now his Ta'verenness is affecting Tear. He takes the Pattern, and folds it, putting Tear and Andor next to eachother. Then he bores through. The only threads he touches are Tear and Andor threads, and poof hes in Andor doing his normal Ta'veren thing there.
3
JakOShadows: 2005-06-12
roguesavior: You did do some good research on this theory. I just think it is slightly misinterpreted. When Rand talks about boring a hole from on place of the pattern to another, I don't think of it as him touching any of the other threads along the way. Because he never directly touch the point in between. Think of it like going through the oblivion Moghedien talked about in your quote. Only when using saidin, the oblivion can be bridged, and when using saidar, it can't be bridged.
4
Ashaman Samuel: 2005-06-12
think of it as using a barbed needle through a folded piece of fabric. Ordinary channelers are ordinary needles but ta'veren are barbed pulling at what they pass through more so.
5
a dragonburned fool: 2005-06-13
It was an interesting idea, RS, I see a problem in it though. When Travelling a channeler may pass through more threads - this was your argument for a ta'veren traveller to affect more threads. However when Travelling Rand will only pass through these threads, not being interwoven with them. The definition of "taveren" was "a person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps all life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny". I.e. a ta'veren is a ta'veren when threads are woven around him. A ta'veren is a ta'veren only in an Web of Destiny. Anything Rand does outside the framework of the Web of Destiny is not a ta'veren deed. A ta'veren is a leading thread inside the context of a particular active Web of Destiny and nowhere else. Rand doesn't allways affect threads - sometimes he affects them more, sometimes less. He doesn't chose when to affetct them and when not - the Web of Destiny determines his ta'veren functionality in any moment.
But most important is that being ta'veren has sense only if threads are woven together. Ta'veren is how threads are woven between each other, not just how they stay. Ta'veren has no sense outside thread-weaving. And Travelling is NOT weaving of threads, but rather avoiding thread weaving. So I will state that Rand will cause LESS ta'veren effect when Travelling, because he will go outside the normal process of weaving that determines the Web of Destiny. Webs of Destiny are bound to locations and periods of time. So even the sudden change of a location could disrupt the WoD and so disturb the ta'veren effect.
6
JakOShadows: 2005-06-13
I agree with you there a dragon burned fool. The point of traveling is to move to a far away point on the age lace so to speak. This means that he would be avoiding it, rather than going through it. Nice explanation.
7
RogueSavior: 2005-06-14
The entire reason for this theory, in my mind, is to explain the reason why the Dragonsworn are so common in places Rand has never been. Rand's Traveling could be the cause, as he Travels across their threads. However, because he doesn't actually stay near these threads long enough to attach them to his WoD, but merely bent them along it, they've turned to banditry. After all, the Dragon Reborn BREAKS all bonds, there's no mention of him making new ones in all situation.
8
Callandor: 2005-06-14
**The entire reason for this theory, in my mind, is to explain the reason why the Dragonsworn are so common in places Rand has never been.**
What do you mean? Rand started the Dragonsworn on Almoth plain in The Great Hunt, when of course he was there. The news spread and people proclaimed for him or against him. Where Mesema and Perrin are in Crossroads, is actually pretty close to where Rand was when traveling on foot to Tear in The Dragon Reborn. I wouldn't say that his ta'vereness has "stayed there" all that time or anything like that, but I also wouldn't say it was Travelling. It's just that Rand is that powerful of a ta'veren that he can affect what happens so far away.
9
JakOShadows: 2005-06-14
That could also be the his tav'eren effects being felt all over the world. Because he is very strongly tav'eren, so he could probably still affect the age lace all the way on the other side of the world. He could of even made the Seanchan come over when they did; it would be a long reach, but all the AS talk like he is the most strongly tav'eren person they're heard of even before Hawkwing. That's the reason why I find your theory hard to prove or disprove, because there is no accurate gauge to measure his effect related to how ta'veren he is.
10
Narianna: 2005-06-15
you are also forgetting the role of pedron niall in the rise and spread of dragonsworns.
it was pedron niall who started the dragonsworns to spread chaos and ruin in the name of rand.
it is my personal belief that demandred has continued this dragonsworn policy by influencing masema.
11
a dragonburned fool: 2005-06-20
***"The entire reason for this theory, in my mind, is to explain the reason why the Dragonsworn are so common in places Rand has never been."***
People in the world are so willing to become Dragonsworn in places no ta'veren was present in this times, because of a process in the Pattern that begun before Rand begun to Travel. Before Rand begun to Travel a very unusual quantity of false Dregons emerged, a quantity unically big for all the 3000 years long history of the Third Age. Moiraine said that it was because the pattern wants a Dragon and if the true Dragon doesn't appear, then false Dragon do. In one of the if-worlds Rand have seen, he became not a Dragon and travelled not, but false Dragons emerged and emerged in immense numbers. False Dragons gather crowds of supporters, i.e. also enthusiasm among the population towards following the Dragon is created by the Pattern. After Falme the false Dragons became unneeded and they don't appear more, but the wish to follow dragons seem to remain.
***"However, because he doesn't actually stay near these threads long enough to attach them to his WoD"***
Again, to be a ta'veren is not to "stay near" threads but to be a central thread in an web of threads. Ta'veren is the central theread in an "Web of Destiny" and this "Web of destiny" is what actually causes the effects. Webs of Destiny are bound to locations, i.e. Travelling would rather limit the spatial effect of the ta'veren unless the ta'veren stays in the same place long enough.
12
SDog: 2005-06-22
JakOShadows wrote: "When Rand talks about boring a hole from on place of the pattern to another, I don't think of it as him touching any of the other threads along the way. Because he never directly touch the point in between."
I think this is a key point. When Rand Travels, he's not passing over the actual physical distance from point A to point B. That's the whole point. Traveling from Tear to Andor pulls Andor up next to Tear in the Pattern. Everything that is physically between the two countries is folded up down below--Rand never touches it.
If you fold a piece of paper in half, then poke a pin through both halves, you're only touching a tiny part of the paper. The rest of it is untouched.
In short, when Rand Travels from one to another point, he's not really in the proximity of everything that is physically between the two points. That's the point of Traveling.
13
Zepher: 2005-07-23
What I have to say about Traveling may not be a theory but I noticed that what LTT used in the begining of tEoTW and what Rand used at the end were very different than what they use now.
"Desperatly he reached out to the True Source and he Traveled." EOTW prologe, page xiii
"Warmth built in Rand, the warmth of the sun, the radiance of the sun, bursting, the awful radiance of light, of the Light.
AWAY!
'Minee! Flame shot from Anginor's mouth, broke through his eyes like spears of fire and he screamed.
AWAY!
And Rand was no longer on the hilltop"
EOTW, page 756
Now what the Aes Sedi and male channelers use is more akin to gateways than Traveling. What ya think?
14
therobotbadger: 2005-07-24
I agree with Zepher the something was different about Travelling in tEotW. Most especially, I think, I the Prologue, but also in the passage already quoted. A few quotes:
"Behind him the air rippled, shimmered, solidified into a man who looked around, his mouth twisting briefly with distaste." (tEotW x HC).
"On the island, the air shimmered and coalesced. The black clad man stood staring at the fiery mountain rising out of the plain." (tEotW xiv HC).
This shimmering air doesn't seem anything like opening a hole in the Pattern, which is how gateways are described. I suppose that since both times we have a description, it's Ishamael Traveling, and the difference could be chalked up to the TP. When LTT Travels in the same Prologue, the quote merely says, "Desperately he reached out to the True Source, to tainted Saidin [capitalized, for some reason], and he Traveled." (tEotW xiii HC) so there's no help there.
As to the main theory, that of Rand's Traveling ta'veren-ly affecting the threads of the places he skips over, I don't buy it. I don't think there's anything that needs to be explained here. Small actions can affect events around the world in normal situations with normal people, and Rand is hardly a normal man in normal situations. To use an oft-quoted idea:
"The flapping of a single butterfly's wing today produces a tiny change in the state of the atmosphere. Over a period of time, what the atmosphere actually does diverges from what it would have done. So, in a month's time, a tornado that would have devastated the Indonesian coast doesn't happen. Or maybe one that wasn't going to happen, does." (Ian Stewart, Does God Play Dice? The Mathematics of Chaos, pg. 141). Rand doesn't need to be in a place to affect the people, just being who he is and doing what he does changes the whole world.
Lastly,
**After all, the Dragon Reborn BREAKS all bonds, there's no mention of him making new ones in all situation. ** RogueSavior
2005-06-14
I think this is taking in idea WAY too literally. Rand 'breaking bonds' is, I think, likely just a metaphor for him changing things, which making new bonds would do just as well.
15
Callandor: 2005-07-24
**What I have to say about Traveling may not be a theory but I noticed that what LTT used in the begining of tEoTW and what Rand used at the end were very different than what they use now.**
No, they're not.
1. Lews Therin's is spot on. It says flat out: he Traveled. It doesn't describe it of course, but that doesn't mean it's different.
2. Rand did not Travel in that example. By all acounts we have, Rand was actually using part of tel'aran'rhiod, because that is where the Eye of the World was located. This is explained by how one must use "need" to find the Green Man (and the Eye as well), which is the exact same as how the Wise Ones find holds in the Waste in tel'aran'rhiod, and how Nynaeve and Elayne found the Bowl of the Winds -- by need. The second is that no one can use the same need twice to find the Green Man. This is again reflected Nynaeve and Elayne being unable to use need in tel'aran'rhiod to find the Bowl of the Winds again to speed up their search in Ebou Dar.
Moiraine "cheated" the system in The Eye of the World, because she had already seen the Green Man once (which is interesting in and of itself...), but she met him again with Rand and co. The important part to know is that Rand and co. were the need to find the Green Man -- Moiraine was, for lack of better explanation, merely hitching a ride along. But she was always explaining that it was "our need", not just "her need."
Tel'aran'rhiod has a group effect, where people in groups will experience time and effects the same way. Everytime Nynaeve and Elayne met with Egwene and/or the Wise Ones/Salidar Aes Sedai, all those people were experiencing time pass in tel'aran'rhiod at the same time rate; if someone else entered tel'aran'rhiod, they would experience a different time rate. This group effect is again, shown with the Eye of the World when Moiraine is able to go to the Green Man again, being in the same group as Rand and co., whom have never been there before. She was in the group, the group needed to get there, so she got to go along again.
So, the event that you are refering to, Rand is not Travelling there. He is merely using tel'aran'rhiod to leave the place. The fact that he shows up in the real world, is interesting though.
