1
Tamyrlin: 2005-06-11
I have read the Moridin is Ishamael section of the F.A.Q, and I have accepted the fact that Moridin is Ishamael. However, recently, in a question Jordan answered from me regarding transmigration, he does say that, in essence, if the balefire is small enough, the Dark One can grasp the soul of the individual. From the description of how Be'lal dies, there is room to believe that the DO could have transmigrated the soul of Be'lal. However, why would he make Be'lal Moridin and Nae'blis, instead of Ishamael? You bring up some important points that must be refuted; Moridin's help to Rand in killing Sammael, the game board (nice pick up on that one), and the fact that Jordan coyly admitted to the DO's ability to grab souls of those hit with a small balefire blast, which he happens to describe, it is my belief, in regards to Be'lal's death. This is the question that first needs to be resolved, though: are there any Definitive quotes, regarding Moridin, that theoretically could not be applied to Be'lal? By the way Duram, how do you explain Moridin's eyes? As far as I recall, we don't have any reason to believe Be'lal was a heavy True Power user. A compelling idea, nice first theory.
2
reTaardad: 2005-06-11
I can't agree with this one. Yes, if balefire is used in small enough quantities, a person can be resurrected after being killed. But Moiraine, one of the strongest Aes Sedai of the modern Age, killed Be'lal. With the fact that she more than likely summoned every shred of the Power that she could to balefire him with (and it appeared to be that way), Be'lal was dead many minutes before he was balefired, in a way. So personally, I don't think that Be'lal could ever be resurrected.
In reference to why he was the only Forsaken not mentioned in the list, Be'lal was the only Chosen that was either balefired or still loyal to the Dark One. Aginor - burned, Balthamel - squeezed/mushroomed, Ishamael - killed by Callandor, Asmodean - betrayal. Any and all could have been resurrected (except perhaps Asmodean), and some have been.
3
jonrox: 2005-06-11
my question is why would Be'Lal be resurrected and appointed to leader of the other forsaken? what has he done to ellevate his standing? also, where is ishy?
4
Anubis: 2005-06-11
**They reek of Be'lal. He is a blade-master, a general, a ruler, arrogant and obsessed with his own power and gain. He is arrogant enough to name himself “Death.” He appears dressed in fine black and red cloths. He is aggressive - unafraid to move openly and often alternates between arrogance and rage, and quickly reverting back again.**
When was Morridin described as being a blade master? Or a general? Or a ruler for that matter? Arrogant doesnt even enter into it, name one Forsaken who isnt. And I dont recall Morridin ever wearing black and red, just black. And about the temper... Ishmael and Moridin have both displayed a rather uncontrollable temper with the ability to fly into a rage at the drop of a hat. Be'Lal struck me as a much cooler character.
5
Callandor: 2005-06-11
Flat out wrong. Ishamael is Moridin. There is no question about it.
**Moridin is a red herring, with Ishy being too obvious a answer for RJ to use. Lots of evidence may seem to point to Ishy, but is there absolute proof? The real problem is everyone assumes Moridin is Ishy because no other Chosen could have been resurrected as him, a man who, from the Age of Legends with his particular knowledge and personality traits. But there is one overlooked candidate.**
No, no one in the series has come out to say Ishamael is Moridin, but it's an open secret -- IE: bloody obvious.
**In TLOC Demandred visits the DO. The DO eventually mentions the slain Chosen, Asmodean and how Rahvin is beyond his reach - balefire. But he forgets something. He never mentions Be'lal. He could have said it, but he didn't include Be'lal with Rahvin.**
Why would he in Lord of Chaos? Be'lal died in The Dragon Reborn, not in The Fires of Heaven. The Dark One might have raised a comment to someone if they visited in The Shadow Rising -- but we weren't given that information.
**Moridin is a lot of things but he just doesn't fit Ishy. Moridin is arrogant, aggressive in his actions and manipulations but may also be not truly insane. Every supposed ‘madness' involves both anger and the True Power. A rage-oholic with an addiction to the True Power.**
And where is this not adding up to be Ishamael??
**His sense of humour (often cruel and sardonic) has him dress Mog and Cyn in black and red livery - “his colours.”**
Please note that those are the same colors that Ishamael wore.
**These traits contrast somewhat with Ishy. They reek of Be'lal.**
I don't see how they do.
**He is a blade-master, a general, a ruler, arrogant and obsessed with his own power and gain. He is arrogant enough to name himself “Death.” He appears dressed in fine black and red cloths. He is aggressive - unafraid to move openly and often alternates between arrogance and rage, and quickly reverting back again, (TDR battle in the Stone) and uses the phrase ‘serve' several times in reference to them serving him. He also failed once in his all out attack against Rand (Ishy loses three times) - balefired by a puny Aes Sedai (Moridin snaps about how “I never been afraid of Aes Sedai,” (CoS) obviously showing the lie of some bad past experience).**
1. Ishamael faired perfectly well against Rand with the staff in The Great Hunt, after Rand had taken care of a blademaster. It is never said that Moridin is a blademaster, so I can only assume you mean general weapon proficency, in which Ishamael is a perfect match.
2. Ishamael was a general -- he suffered the defeat at the gates of Paaran Disen, not Be'lal, Demandred, or Samamael.
3. Ishamael is obviously a ruler -- he rules over the Forsaken and every Forsaken had an area of control in the War of Power.
4. Ishamael is obviously arrogant -- any Forsaken is.
5. Ishamael I wouldn't say is "obsessed" with his power and gain, but he obviously works for only that in line with the Dark One's goals.
6. Ishamael appeared dressed in fine black and red clothes.
7. Ishamael is also, obviously, agressive and will change plans and work openly -- see the end of The Eye of the World, The Great Hunt, and The Dragon Reborn. In all 3 he is in a rage as well.
8. It's not that Ishamael lost 3 times -- it's that he died that were the disasterous results. This is the area where Ishamael and Be'lal are the most similar -- except that while Be'lal has a chance of being transmigrated, Ishamael can be without even questioning it.
9. Where is Moridin showing the lie of saying he is never afraid of Aes Sedai? He says it with blunt truth.
**Then we see Moridin with the Sha'rah board (Prolog of TPOD) - the gameplayer, a man who sees the world as a game of strategy - people represented as pieces. Could this be the mark of Be'lal (and why and where did Ishy become associated with the board game)?**
It could be, except that we have no reference to Be'lal being a philosopher and drawing the parallels through the game that Moridin does, that match up exactly with what Ishamael has thought previously.
**Why would Ishy hate Sammael and see him as a direct threat - what skills would Ishy and Sammael share?**
Who says he hates Sammael? Moridin is stating simple truth of his opinions about Sammael. It's arrogance striking again -- not envy or hatred.
**RJ has Loial include Be'lal and Sammael as a pair “both leaders in the light (skilled generals) ... both were masters of the sword.” Sammael and Be'lal ironically enough take control of opposing nations (Illian and Tear) and spread hate propaganda and war sentiment among their populations in preparation for an eventual confrontation. Both share some similar skills and are thus competition to each other. Moridin uses Rand to eliminate Sammael in his moment of weakness - eliminating a competitor? Someone who could replace him and the skills he puts at the Shadow's disposal?**
The thing is about that incident in Shadar Logoth. Ishamael is one to see things beyond the insults and injuries that have been put upon him for the larger picture -- the other Forsaken are known for how petty they are and concerned with only themselves.
Yet, Moridin helps Rand from death. Rand. Someone who no matter who would be put in Moridin's body would want to kill him. Except that Moridin didn't -- he looked to the bigger picture. That Rand is still neccesary -- that Rand, is a piece, on a board.
Be'lal would not do that. He couldn't even stop from trying to kill Rand when he was trying to use him to free Callandor for crying out loud.
**There have been other theories describing the True Power as a punishment for failure.**
What? The True Power is a gift -- not a punishment.
**He also had Rand beaten, only Moiraine saved him (because Faile/Perrin fell in the trap that was to eliminate her).**
That only shows how pathetic of a manimpulator he is -- he couldn't get Rand to get Callandor, which is what he was after. He was going to destroy the only key to the lock. Why? Because he had his vices.
**Be'lal is a heavy hitter - of the Chosen only eight have a third name, an honour reserved for only the greatest.**
Great people in the Age of Legends -- not great Forsaken. After all, Asmodean had a third name, and Lanfear did not. So, on those grounds, you woul say that Asmodean is a heavy hitter Forsaken, but Lanfear is not?
**His was “Cham” literally meaning “Khan” - the warlord, the politician, a man of cunning and skill surpassing all but the greatest.**
You're supposing here.
** The Coffee Hour scene has Moridin enter with a rat on his shoulder. The mark of Ishamael. Demandred notes it could be “for some reason... or for no reason perhaps.” It has a reason - to make Moridin the red herring - meant to fool you, I, and the other Chosen (because the DO plays them against each other - to what end this time we hope to find out) and that potentially Ishy is at large as someone or something else. Feedback will be appreciated as this theory continues to evolve.**
Let's consider the single biggest piece of evidence that Moridin is Ishamael:
**TITLE: Path of Daggers, CHAPTER: 2 - Unweaving
"He was about to turn away when the outlines of the gateway suddenly began to flex and tremble. Transfixed, he watched until the opening simply—melted. He had never been a man to give way to obscenities, but several rose in his mind. What had the woman done? These barbarous rustics offered too many surprises. A way to Heal being severed, however imperfectly. That was impossible! Except that they had done it. Involuntary rings. Those Warders and the bond they shared with their Aes Sedai. He had known of that for a long, long time, but whenever he thought he had the measure of them, these primitives revealed some new skill, did something that no one in his own Age had dreamed of. Something the pinnacle of civilization had not known! What had the girl done?"
So. Please. Explain how Be'lal, would know about the Warder bond for a "long, long time", compared to Ishamael, who was freed long before the other Forsaken were and the most knowledgable about the current 3rd Age?
That single quote alone proves that Moridin is Ishamael.
Another fact you overlooked. Moridin's servants:
**TITLE: Path of Daggers, CHAPTER: Prologue - Deceptive Appearances
"A servant approached, a slim graceful young man clad all in white, impossibly handsome, bowing as he presented a crystal goblet on a silver tray. ~He smiled, but it did not touch his black eyes, eyes more lifeless than simply dead. Most men would have felt uncomfortable having that gaze on them.~ Moridin merely took the goblet and motioned the servant away. The vintners of this time produced some excellent wines. He did not drink, though."
Which match to Ishamael's servants in The Great Hunt:
**TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: Prologue - In the Shadow
"Idly he wondered whether the servants would have to be disposed of after this meeting. Servants hear everything. As the serving girl straightened from her bow, his eye caught hers above that sweet smile. Blank eyes. Empty eyes. A doll's eyes. Eyes more dead than death.
He shivered as she moved gracefully away, and raised the goblet to his lips before he caught himself. It was not what had been done to the girl that chilled him. Rather, every time he thought he detected a weakness in those he now served, he found himself preceded, the supposed weakness cut out with a ruthless precision that left him amazed. And worried. The first rule of his life had always been to search for weakness, for every weakness was a chink where he could probe and pry and influence. If his current masters, his masters for the moment, had no weakness . . . "
It's important to point out the disgruntled Bors here, for that is exactly what Moridin says would happen.
You also mentioned Moridin's rat. You dismissed it as a red herring. But how would Be'lal know of it? Moridin shows a tendency to torture rats -- the same thing that Ishamael did.
And last, but certainly not least, is the True Power addiction. RJ has confirmed that the fire eyes that Ishamael had was an advanced form of the saa -- what Moridin already has after so short a time. Both Moridin and Ishamael are obviously True Power addicts.
Be'lal, surprise, has absolutely no mention of the True Power about him. The only possible reference is his black sword that he uses against Rand, which could've easily been the One Power instead. And even if it was the True Power, it is nowhere on the scale that Ishamael or Moridin have been using it.
There's no doubt about it. Moridin is Ishamael transmigrated.
6
Anubis: 2005-06-12
You ask for quotes by Morridin that could not be applied to Be'lal, well here is one:
"He [Moridin] was about to turn away when the outlines of the gateway suddenly began to flex and tremble. Transfixed, he watched until the opening simply—melted. He had never been a man to give way to obscenities, but several rose in his mind. What had the woman done? These barbarous rustics offered too many surprises. A way to Heal being severed, however imperfectly. That was impossible! Except that they had done it. Involuntary rings. Those Warders and the bond they shared with their Aes Sedai. He had known of that for a long, long time, but whenever he thought he had the measure of them, these primitives revealed some new skill, did something that no one in his own Age had dreamed of. Something the pinnacle of civilization had not known! What had the girl done?"
No way could Be'Lal have known about the warder bond for a long long time, of all the Forsaken, only Ishmael would have that knowledge.
7
Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-06-13
This is awesome! I disagree, but it's still awesome!
I love it when someone finds a loophole that can turn everything on its head. Be'Lal could still be out there, regardless of whether he is Moridin or not. I guess those 9 people who even knew of the game would be the proof of whether he is back or not.
The chess game as a clue was great. But I think that's the red herring.
Keep up the good work and never give in to the naysayers. I rated your theory a 10.
8
Duram: 2005-06-15
How large is a ‘rod' of balefire? As big as the hole between my thumb and forefinger? Small, too small to finish off Be'lal and the whole reason for RJ's long balefire explanation (why else would he mention it being possible to transmigrate someone hit by it? The question asked by Tamyrlin didn't even mention balefire specifically yet it came out anyways...). The nine living who “remember the game” at that point are Demandred, Grendal, Aran'gar, Osan'gar, Cyn and Mog, Mesaana and Semihage. Mordin makes nine, but does he include himself in this or is it “nine others” and himself? This is a valuable question in simply deciding whether Be'lal is alive. Because Moridin mentions “only nine living remember the game” and then that “he had been a master of it” it is possible he includes himself as a tenth person living (this messed up WoT FAQ's count, as they thought it was in fact nine plus him (10) and a mistake by RJ, but given Be'lal it now works!). So now we have the earlier eight and Ishy and Be'lal included.
The Guide states that Be'lal is a combination of Rahvin's and Sammael's skills - in fact he surpassed them both in strength. Be'lal is the enigma, we know the least about him and yet what we do know suggests he was quite powerful. Even Mesaana was surprised he failed, and Bridgette seems to fear his skill as well (Elyane and Nynaeve owe Mat “more then [they'll] ever know”). The thing that throws people is probably the fact that he dies such an embarrassing death so early on. It looks very bad on him.
Years of so many “Moridin has to be Ishy” theories have hardened many minds. One begins to wonder why RJ makes Moridin debatable, most evidence is still not absolute (the servant proof is probably one of a hundred used by all the Chosen for various purposes). If it really is so obvious why does RJ say Moridin was one who “died in the stone of tear” (apparently from The Guide) as opposed to actually saying he is Ishy? One refute distinguished itself - the Warder bond. This bodes highest for Ishy/Moridin and perhaps Knife of Dreams will give some more solid evidence to tip the scales.
For along time I too thought Ishy was Moridin. It still stands as the most likely, but RJ is god and who really knows what he's planning? But there are a few things that don't add up (no anti-proofs for the Sha'rah board itself, and the famous game, and what about common skills between Ishy and Sammael?).
Let me continue to stir a few thoughts and clarify the Be'lal/Moridin idea for argument's sake. Remember that Moridin is not ‘all powerful' - he has an equal - Shaidar Haran, the too human fade (got an Ishy theory for him with some thought stirrers - coming soon). Why would the DO make a myrdraal that is an Ishy/Moridin's equal? Technically Shaidar is “the voice of the DO” and even the Nae'blis must obey the DO... We never see them interact, but until they do Shaidar should be considered ‘first among equals.' What greater honour for someone so loyal and who thinks he is the DO than to make him the “Hand of the Shadow,” to give him power greater then any other of the Chosen? Moridin is at huge risk from the other Chosen who want to be Nae'blis (Demandred, Greandel etc.). But what better gift to place your most loyal servant above the petty struggles of the Chosen? To make Ishy untouchable and create him in the image of the DO himself (fades exist partway outside the pattern like the DO and have no ‘positive' emotions). Even if the DO disposes of the Chosen after he breaks free Shaidar may live on...
Be'lal has proven that one on one he can out think and out class LLT and Rand. He got a little unlucky that one time - Moraine should have been deposed of by the trap. He's shown he can retrain himself. When Moraine enters he doesn't lunge at Rand, he steps back. His intentions are to use Rand and to kill him only once that is done. Most of his “take it or I'll kill you” is to scare Rand into taking Callandor. Moridin shows this in Shadar Logoth, and again when he wants Rand dead only if the Choden Kal can't be taken (and has angreal on his mind in PoD Unweavings too...). Ishy in TDR freaks out and tries to kill Rand - he believes he is beyond conversion (Callandor says its Be'lal that's unstable!).
We know that Be'lal is bigger and badder than Sammael/Rahvin combined. This makes him most likely one of the Shadows best generals (if not the best) and second best manipulator (behind Ishy). Ishy has lost every time he's confronted Rand, three embarrassing incidents. So why not make Ishy into Shadar and Be'lal into Nae'blis to combine the two best manipulators as almost equals. Moridin is out in front but has proven he can take on Rand if it comes to it. This way he also acts as ‘point man,' the first target to be seen and dealt with instead of Ishy/Shaidar having to get his hands dirty. With the other Chosen at Be'lal/Moridin's disposal he can equal both Rand and his allies (and yet he doesn't show up at the cleansing - testing Rand's defences - thinning out their numbers?). And the DO needs his best general to get the Last Battle started, even though Ishy was a general he was never that renowned for his skill. Be'lal also distinguished himself as a good governor (compared to most of the other Chosen), so who better to act as the DO's “regent on earth.” So Ishy is still top dog, but Be'lal would take a close second. As for Be'lal/Moridin's eyes, a simple question requires a simple answer. The DO uses TP so TP would be used in transmigration. Be'lal would require extra pumped into him and the new body (because of delay from balefire). Would it be similar to him having used it himself (causing Saa)? The other transmigrated Chosen would have taken less as being pulled out sooner - less TP used on them by DO.
(Question about why Chosen know current language - AoL had only Old Tongue)
Robert Jordan Answers: They still do speak the Old Tongue among themselves, but the first two who were freed, Aginor and Balthamel, had been held very near to the edge of the sealing, the reason they were so visibly affected and twisted while the rest came out whole and healthy, and they were very much aware of what had gone on in the world outside. You might say they had floated in limbo while watching three thousand plus years roll by, with the ability to zoom in. That is probably the only reason they didn't emerge entirely mad. In truth, those two have a much better understanding of the current world than any of the others because they watched it forming. They don't have a complete knowledge, because they couldn't see and hear everything at once, but they have an overview that is unavailable to any of the others, excepting Ishamael to a lesser extent. But then, he's a special case."
How close was Be'lal to the surface? Fairly close, but he may have been in the ‘dreamless' sleep. And yet could an actual dreamer (most Chosen ‘travel' to T'A'R) enter T'A'R from this state (if it refers to only regular dreams being shut out)? He may in fact be an actual dreamer because the entire city of Tear had strange nightmares because of Be'lal's presence in the city (for months before Rand arrived - and usually of Be'lal winning). The reason he does not shield his dreams could be to enter T'A'R the natural way. Would this allow for limited interaction and observation with the world, even sealed in the Bore (can observe the dreams of Aes Sedai etc.)? If nothing else this RJ answer shows us that some of the other Chosen (Aginor and Balthamel) could have knowledge that would be otherwise Ishy exclusive (Warder bond etc.) and that nothing is ever as certain as it seems...
9
Corwin: 2005-06-16
Listen to this tidbit of information. In the fires of heaven, page 119 of the hardcover book (may differ for different books): Moiraine says "...The strongest i can manage will remove only a few seconds from the Pattern..." So its possible that the Dark one could secure Be'lal's soul quite easily.
10
Anubis: 2005-06-17
Simple fact is that I, and im assuming Callandor, and many others simply wont care untill you can refute the quote about Morridin being aware of the warder bond for a long long time.
11
Callandor: 2005-06-17
**This is a valuable question in simply deciding whether Be'lal is alive.**
Whether the balefire was enough to put him beyond death is a more valuable one I feel. Another interesting thing is, does being balefired count as "painfully"? It seems to be quite the opposite. Compared to a sword through the heart.
**The Guide states that Be'lal is a combination of Rahvin's and Sammael's skills - in fact he surpassed them both in strength.**
In their strengths, not in actual strength. That is he was a good manipulator, and was capable in the field.
**Years of so many “Moridin has to be Ishy” theories have hardened many minds.**
Facts tend to do that.
**One begins to wonder why RJ makes Moridin debatable, most evidence is still not absolute (the servant proof is probably one of a hundred used by all the Chosen for various purposes).**
Hmm... nope. Only Ishamael or Graendal have had the servants that are described, and Graendals are far more... sensuous to her tastes. Or unless you want to say that Graendal is somehow posing as Moridin.
**If it really is so obvious why does RJ say Moridin was one who “died in the stone of tear” (apparently from The Guide) as opposed to actually saying he is Ishy?**
Because he likes to keep things mysterious and not tell us exactly everything? Because he is a sadistic son of a B word? Both answers have come from him.
Since you seem to enjoy RJ quotes, how about this one:
**Q: For any of the mysteries, i.e. Moridin's identity and Asmodean's death, would you tell us where to look for clues we probably missed? Or just mention some clues that we all probably didn't see?
A: (laughs) Well, Moridin's identity is pretty much an open secret -- and esp if you read WH, I think it's increasingly clear who he is, if there were any doubt. As for the other -- read and find out!**
Now, if Moridin is increasingly clear, if there ever was any doubt, why on earth would Be'lal be the clear cut choice here? Especially when he doesn't live up to other evidence.
**One refute distinguished itself - the Warder bond. This bodes highest for Ishy/Moridin and perhaps Knife of Dreams will give some more solid evidence to tip the scales.**
Bodes highest for Ishamael....
There was no other Forsaken free enough to know about the Warder bond.
You want choices? You got three.
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1. Ishamael.
2. Aginor.
3. Balthamel.
Since Aginor was reborn as Osan'gar, and Balthamel was reborn as Aran'gar, who else is left to be reborn as Moridin with that knowledge? Certainly not Be'lal.
**It still stands as the most likely, but RJ is god and who really knows what he's planning?**
We do, when he gives enough evidence as he has such as in this case.
**Why would the DO make a myrdraal that is an Ishy/Moridin's equal?**
Good question. We'll find out eventually, otherwise we're stuck with what we have now -- as a punishment element for Forsaken.
**We never see them interact, but until they do Shaidar should be considered ‘first among equals.'**
That's one I will never agree to.
**But what better gift to place your most loyal servant above the petty struggles of the Chosen?**
Yeah, by making him Nae'blis.
**To make Ishy untouchable and create him in the image of the DO himself (fades exist partway outside the pattern like the DO and have no ‘positive' emotions).**
Shaidar Haran refers to Myrddraal as his "brothers" -- hard to see how he is anything but an advanced Fade, especially when we have a dynamite canidate for Ishamael's rebirth in Moridin.
**His intentions are to use Rand and to kill him only once that is done. Most of his “take it or I'll kill you” is to scare Rand into taking Callandor.**
Except that he was going to finally kill Rand before Moiraine intervened.
**Moridin shows this in Shadar Logoth, and again when he wants Rand dead only if the Choden Kal can't be taken (and has angreal on his mind in PoD Unweavings too...). Ishy in TDR freaks out and tries to kill Rand - he believes he is beyond conversion (Callandor says its Be'lal that's unstable!).**
1. Moridin gave orders to stop the Cleansing, and to destroy the Choedan Kal.
2. Ishamael "freaked out" as you say, because it was the third and final time Rand had denied him, and he had already nearly killed him twice -- hard to not see the point by the third time.
3. I have never once said that Be'lal was unstable -- I said that he was shown to be a bad manipulator because he failed to get Rand to take Callandor, and was going to kill him and the only means of freeing it.
**This makes him most likely one of the Shadows best generals (if not the best) and second best manipulator (behind Ishy).**
No. Be'lal was average to above average general.
**TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time,CHAPTER: Be'lal
He went over to the Shadow during the Collapse, but whether at the beginning or the end is not recorded. During the war, he held several field commands, apparently proving himself a more than adequate if not outstanding general, and he governed at least one conquered region. His campaigns and his gubernatorial administration were marked by extreme violence and cruelty, but as much might be said of any of the Forsaken. Some fragments indicate that he was among those who razed the Hall of the Servants, destroying it just days before the strike that sealed him, and the other Forsaken, in the bore.**
And Sammael is still competition, as well as Demandred, and last but certainly not least is Ishamael.
**Ishy has lost every time he's confronted Rand, three embarrassing incidents.**
Twice because he was trying to have Rand come willing to the Shadow -- the other because Rand had a sa'angreal.
**So why not make Ishy into Shadar and Be'lal into Nae'blis to combine the two best manipulators as almost equals.**
1. Because Moridin does not match Be'lal at all when compared to Ishamael.
2. Shaidar Haran is clearly of Myrddraal origins, not human.
3. We still do not even know if it would be possible to have Be'lal be transmigrated, and we know for sure that Ishamael was.
**And the DO needs his best general to get the Last Battle started, even though Ishy was a general he was never that renowned for his skill.**
Neither was Be'lal -- that is the point.
**Be'lal also distinguished himself as a good governor (compared to most of the other Chosen), so who better to act as the DO's “regent on earth.”**
Ha! Read the quote again buddy. All it says is that he governed one region.
Who better? Ishamael. Why? Few reasons:
1. He was first and foremost of the Forsaken, and always has been.
2. He commanded the Trolloc Wars (at least in the beginning), and shattered humanity again.
3. He started the Black Ajah.
4. He destroyed Hawkwing's empire before humanity could completely unite.
5. He is the strongest of the Forsaken in the One Power, the best manipulator you will ever find, and an able general.
6. He has kept faith to the Dark One for 3000+ years, as well as being top Forsaken in the AoL, as well as doing everything he has done to keep humanity on the down side, and kept the Forsaken in line for the time that he was alive.
7. Not to mention, you know, keeping in line with the Rand being the Champion of the Light -- Ishamael being the Champion of the Dark. Why on earth would Be'lal all of a sudden be the Dark One's champion? Ishamael has been the most dedicated and effective Forsaken of any that we know of. Be'lal pales in comparison.
Where does Be'lal even compete with this?
**So Ishy is still top dog, but Be'lal would take a close second.**
No, by all acounts that was Lanfear, and still is.
**As for Be'lal/Moridin's eyes, a simple question requires a simple answer. The DO uses TP so TP would be used in transmigration. Be'lal would require extra pumped into him and the new body (because of delay from balefire). Would it be similar to him having used it himself (causing Saa)? The other transmigrated Chosen would have taken less as being pulled out sooner - less TP used on them by DO.**
There is no remark of the saa at all on the Forsaken, nor is there even an idication it takes the True Power being actively used in the process of transmigrating them, nor is there any indication that it would affect them such as if they were channeling it.
Plus, it also doesn't explain the reason why Moridin's saa are getting more freqeuent -- IE: lots of True Power usage. Ishamael being a rabid True Power user... hmmm........
**How close was Be'lal to the surface? Fairly close, but he may have been in the ‘dreamless' sleep.**
Ishamael was barely held at all, Aginor and Balthamel were held closest to freedom, and Lanfear was held at the deepest level if not the deepest held Forsaken. Guessing where Be'lal is, is pure supposition.
**And yet could an actual dreamer (most Chosen ‘travel' to T'A'R) enter T'A'R from this state (if it refers to only regular dreams being shut out)?**
No. They were sealed off from the world in the Bore.
**He may in fact be an actual dreamer because the entire city of Tear had strange nightmares because of Be'lal's presence in the city (for months before Rand arrived - and usually of Be'lal winning).**
That is not an effect of being a Dreamer, it's an effect of being strong in Spirit, unless you want to claim that Sammael and Rand are also Dreamers, and we know that Rand is not. Warding your dreams, does not prohibit you from dreaming into tel'aran'rhiod.
**Would this allow for limited interaction and observation with the world, even sealed in the Bore (can observe the dreams of Aes Sedai etc.)?**
No. Sealed off from the world. See why Lanfear was denied dreams? Cause -- she was sealed off from the world like Be'lal and all the other Forsaken except Aginor, Balthamel, and Ishamael. We have been given Aginor and Balthamel's extent of power (look in and view humanity as it moved by, but not tel'aran'rhiod).
**If nothing else this RJ answer shows us that some of the other Chosen (Aginor and Balthamel) could have knowledge that would be otherwise Ishy exclusive (Warder bond etc.) and that nothing is ever as certain as it seems...**
Yeah, and again, unless you are stating that Aginor or Balthamel are Moridin, instead of being Osan'gar and Aran'gar, then it's completely pointless anyway. Ishamael is the only one left with that knowledge and not in a body. Ta da! He's put into Moridin. Case closed.
**Shaidar Haran, the too human fade (got an Ishy theory for him with some thought stirrers - coming soon).**
Don't worry, Ishamael is not Shaidar Haran.
**But there are a few things that don't add up (no anti-proofs for the Sha'rah board itself, and the famous game, and what about common skills between Ishy and Sammael?).**
You seem to like this Sha'rah board analogy, and for some reason think it works for you. Trust me, it only works against your idea. I just felt you would see the impossiblity of Moridin being anyone by Ishamael.
During the Sha'rah game, first I must point out that Be'lal played stones, not Sha'rah. Comparing the two is a deadly mistake, since they are vastly different.
Second, it becomes painfully clear that the board game is a metaphor for the struggle between the Light and Shadow for the Fisher. If it is not blatantly clear, the Fisher is meaning Rand. The victory of the game is determined by either controlling the Fisher and moving it to a particular location or by allowing your opponent to hold the Fisher, and only leaving legal moves that allow victory for you.
How is this not seen as a blatant comparison to Ishamael's actions in the first three books? What does Ishamael do? He manipulates Rand, even though he can always kill him.
Thirdly, in the course of Moridin's thoughts about the game, he becomes a trifle angry about not understanding the origins of the name or the traditional shape of the Fisher piece on the game board. He becomes angry because he regards that knowledge, likely lost from some previous turning of the Wheel, as his right. Who is the only other villain we have ever seen worry seriously about other cycles? Ishamael, as he asserts in the very first prologue of the series in The Eye of the World that he and Lews Therin have fought countless times throughout Ages since the beginning of time, exactly paralleling philiosophies attributed him in the BWB.
Sorry, but once again -- Moridin is Ishamael.
12
silverwolf: 2005-06-21
Although I agree that Be'lal might still be alive, he is not Moridin. The evidence clearly points to Ishamael--as Callandor pointed out, Moridin's thoughts about the eternal struggle between the Light and the Dark One (i.e.: not just dealing with the current age), his concern with other cycles, and his general demeanor match those of Ishamael, not Be'lal. Sorry that this is rather vague, but it's been a while since I've read the part of the series dealing with Moridin (I'm currently rereading book 6).
13
Sodas: 2005-06-21
Interesting, but no. There is absolutely no reason to believe that Be'lal would use the TP. That is what makes it definitive proof that it's Ishmael.
14
SDog: 2005-06-21
“A recreation of the early stages of a famous game.” There is only one famous game this can be referring to. The one in which Be'lal defeats Lews Therin Telamon, the one he would boast of for years, the one he obsesses over even now.
Big problem here. Bel'al beat LTT at stones. This is Sha'rah. A different game entirely.
I think the only thing you've shown is that Bel'al might not be gone. Other than that, you have presented very little that ties him to Moridin.
The biggest problems are two: (1)Why bring back Bel'al as Nae'blis, and (2) why do the other Chosen obviously think of Moridin as Isha'mael?
15
Tamyrlin: 2005-06-21
SDog, I think that is the best part about this theory. We had all written Be'lal off long ago, but he has shown Be'lal, realistically, could be alive...which is disconcerting and almost enough to make me run through a re-read...almost. :)
16
Merk: 2005-06-22
SDog beat me to the point that stones and sha'rah are two different games. We see stones being played left and right but sha'rah is known by only a few people in this world, etc.
While it was an interesting read, I don't think it has any other sound point besides that Be'lal might still be out there, and Tam's question to RJ gave us that.
17
hale: 2005-06-30
Two refuting facts:
1.) While Moridin is at the Sha'rah board he looks at the King Fisher noting it's appearance. Moridin then becomes irritated at not knowing why they King Fisher has always been the same figure. This is a characteristic of Ishmael the "philosopher", the Forsaken that has prided himself on his knowledge of the ages. This is definately not a known characteristic of Bel'al.
2.) The quote below is another strong indication of Moridin being Ishmael. I have emphasized the most pertinent part.
"Moridin announced, striding in as though he were the Great Lord of Dark himself. He had often seemed to believe he was, and the boy's face he wore now had not changed that."
This quote was taken from the perspective of a forsaken. The belief that he is the DO is Ishmael's prevelant characteristic. I do not believe that Bel'al ever had such grand aspirations of delusions.
18
mjasghar: 2005-07-04
A couple of points:
Moridin POV with the Fisher King piece: he muses on the eternal nature of the Dragon Reborn, like Ishy does.
MOridin also is trying to manipulate Rand. Bel'al only wanted him to survive long enough to get Callandor, then kill him.
And, the clincher, Demandred POV - thinks Moridin was half mad even before he was reborn. That has got to be Ishy.
19
Darren: 2005-07-05
Be'lal is gone. Resurrecting the Forsaken destroyed by balefire is something that might be acceptable in a daytime soap opera, but would further undermine the credibility of the novels.
20
Yaga Shura: 2005-07-07
"Be'lal is gone. Resurrecting the Forsaken destroyed by balefire is something that might be acceptable in a daytime soap opera, but would further undermine the credibility of the novels. "
It can be done, if the balefire used is low in dose.
Tor Question of the Week: Week 3
"the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern."
21
tai shar nebraska: 2005-07-11
i think the ishy supporters are winning the evidence war here, but i would like to point out that the "long, long, time" refutation does not hold- "long" is not explicitly defined... the time since the deeply buried forsaken were released might be called a long, long, time.
22
Callandor: 2005-07-11
**... the time since the deeply buried forsaken were released might be called a long, long, time.**
A year and a half or two years does not compare at all to Ishamael's recent release of around 13-14 years, nor any of his previous releases during the Trolloc Wars and Artur Hawkwing's time when the Warder bond was also in use. That, is one heck of a long, long, time.
23
Ozymandias: 2005-07-17
I have a question. I'm not disputing that Moridin is Ishy, but there is an incredibly suspicious incident in both Winter's Heart and Path of Daggers that might point that way. In PoD, Graendal says "This is preposterous. A man I've never heard of has been named Nae'blis [Moridin, obviously]" (New Alliances, PoD). This proves that Moridin was NOT alive before the Sealing of the Bore, because Graendal would know of someone as powerful and high in the Dark One's esteem. However, all of this is turned around in Winter's Heart. Osan'gar, definitevly known to be Aginor due to the fact that Osan'gar says; "His talents, his genius, lay elsewhere. The Trollocs were his making...", something known to be a creation of Aginor. Therefore, Aginor would have the same knowledge of Moridin, if he existed before the Sealing, as Graendal. However, his reaction to thoughts about Moridin are almost polar opposites to Graendal. He says, "But the fact remained that Moridin terrified him.
The man had always terrified him, from the very beginning. He had been mad with power before they were sealed into the Bore, and since they had been freed, he seemed to think that he was the Great Lord" (both of those are from With the Choedan Kal, WH). Now, two things crop up here. One is this. In the BWB, Jordan says that Aginor "came close to rivaling Lews Therin and Ishamael in strength" (pg 53, BWB). Now, this is the first time we see a Forsaken express FEAR of another one (assuming Moridin = Ishy). Even Moghedien, considerably weaker in the power than Ishy, is never actually fearful of him. Wary, but not afraid. Therefore, Aginor, almost as strong as Ishy in the beginning, should NOT be afraid of him as Moridin. Even IF he is weakened as the Osan'gar persona, he still says he feared Moridin before the Bore was sealed. Since we know Moridin DIDNT EXIST before the Bore was sealed, thanks to Graendal, he must be Ishy. But still, why the fear of a man only slightly stronger in the Power than himself? I have no idea. And then the other idea crops up. How does Aginor/Osan'gar know Moridin is Ishy? Ishy is the only reasonable possibility to explain the above thoughts, but he still does not announce himself to the other Chosen by his original name. Two mysteries.
Also, this. Why is Ishy blessed not only with Rebirth, but with the title of Nae'blis, after he fails? The DO flips at everyone else who fails, but Ishy, who has had 3000 years to twist things to insure victory, fails, and is rewarded with the highest honor. Why?
24
Callandor: 2005-07-17
**This proves that Moridin was NOT alive before the Sealing of the Bore, because Graendal would know of someone as powerful and high in the Dark One's esteem.**
Indeed she would -- proving he is someone transmigrated.
**Even IF he is weakened as the Osan'gar persona, he still says he feared Moridin before the Bore was sealed. Since we know Moridin DIDNT EXIST before the Bore was sealed, thanks to Graendal, he must be Ishy.**
Exactly.
**But still, why the fear of a man only slightly stronger in the Power than himself? I have no idea.**
Just because Ishamael is only slightly stronger than Aginor, does not mean at all that Aginor is near Ishamael's equal. As you said, Ishamael has instilled at least caution in all the Forsaken, wariness in Moghedien (like she needs incentive to be wary though), and at least confirmed fear in Aginor -- he's a powerful person on his own, and that has nothing to do with the One Power. Merely what he is, what he can do, and what he will do.
**How does Aginor/Osan'gar know Moridin is Ishy? Ishy is the only reasonable possibility to explain the above thoughts, but he still does not announce himself to the other Chosen by his original name. Two mysteries.**
Well as you showed, Aginor does not state that it is Ishamael. He merely strongly believes it (and it is of course true). Why does Demandred believe that Moridin is Ishamael? His actions. Moridin doesn't have to come out and say he is Ishamael (after all, he hasn't and we have put it together), but others can piece it out. Aginor just had an easier time about it ;)
**Why is Ishy blessed not only with Rebirth, but with the title of Nae'blis, after he fails? The DO flips at everyone else who fails, but Ishy, who has had 3000 years to twist things to insure victory, fails, and is rewarded with the highest honor. Why?**
Everyone says that he failed.... ~Sigh~
Look, Ishamael did not kill Rand, true. He died for it instead, true. Was this what the Dark One wanted at the time? Not likely but we don't know.
Look what Ishamael did before the series started:
1. He destroyed the Compact of the Ten Nations by starting and commanding a chunk of the Trolloc Wars.
2. He created the Black Ajah inside the White Tower.
3. He controlled Artur Hawkwing and instilled the idea that Aes Sedai cannot be trusted very tightly.
4. He then went on to send his son off to eventually build the empire of Seanchan (sealed two dooms of course).
5. Then Hawkwing died, and Ishamael made it so that not one single person got the whole of his empire, and instilled the War of the Hundred Years.
And then his actions in the series.
All of Ishamael's actions throughout history have been to keep humanity on the brink of destruction; to make sure that humanity is never united under a single unified rule or peace for very long. He's succeeded every time. Because of this, humanity will not stand the best chance of being completely behind Rand (as we have been shown throughout the series).
And you wonder why Ishamael became Nae'blis? ;)
What other Forsaken has done nearly as much as this?
25
hale: 2005-07-18
Simple answer Ozy: Ishmael/Moridin now has exclusive access to the "One Power" granted by the Dark One. This type of channeling has purpoted to be far more powerful and addictive than what can be drawn from the True Source.
26
Ozymandias: 2005-07-18
Well, in response to Callandor, I still think that the wording Jordan uses, namely, "terrified", belies explanation beyond the point of simple fear. We have established that most of the Chosen are merely "wary" of Ishy, not "fearful". Since "terrified" is exponentially stronger than merely "fearful", and we know that Aginor SHOULDNT be fearful, let alone terrified, we are presented with that interesting dilemma. I personally am firmly in the Ishy=Moridin camp, and will most likely remain there, barring an outright statement otherwise. I did think that this small discrepancy could add a little uncertainty to the proven theory, though, so I decided to put it out. I happen to find it confusing, since I don't see why Aginor would be actually terrified of Ishy (Nae'blis Moridin is a different story). One other thing about naming Moridin Nae'blis; the DO has NEVER been forgiving of the SLIGHTEST failure. Cyndane/Lanfear for example. Her is the one person the DO can attribute his freedom to. And yet, when SHE fails in her task (one which she might not of even had in the first place, making her failure even less consequential), the DO makes her a slave to Moridin. I don't think the DO is taking past actions particularly into account in his current judgements. He doesn't seem capable of gratitude. So why be grateful to the current failure Ishy, when he could have rewarded someone like Cyndane (who is Lanfear) for freeing him? I don't see any sense, but its all opinion, I guess.
And Hale; I have no clue what you're talking about. I'm not gonna get in an argument about whether or not it's choice or constraint keeping the Chosen away from the True Power, but it really didn't have any relevance to my point. Unless you're arguing that because both Ishy and Moridin use the True Power they must be one and the same. I suppose that's a piece of evidence in favor of Moridin/Ishamael theory, but it's too vague (unless I'm missing a quote saying that the Chosen we're cut off from True Power?) to be anything concrete. Most of the Chosen we're too... prudent, to use the True Power much.
27
Callandor: 2005-07-19
**I happen to find it confusing, since I don't see why Aginor would be actually terrified of Ishy (Nae'blis Moridin is a different story).**
Once again, Ishamael is a powerhouse, many think he's half mand, he's incredibly brilliant, and the most rabid follower of the Dark One. He's been the leader of the Forsaken for a long time, he's just finally gotten the formal title for it.
**Cyndane/Lanfear for example. Her is the one person the DO can attribute his freedom to. And yet, when SHE fails in her task (one which she might not of even had in the first place, making her failure even less consequential), the DO makes her a slave to Moridin.**
1. There was more than just Lanfear at the Drilling of the Bore. Lanfear I'm sure got high marks for it, but you have to remember that it was an accident.
2. What task did she fail in? She was mindtrapped for plotting a possible rebellion from the Dark One to side with Rand.
** I don't think the DO is taking past actions particularly into account in his current judgements.**
Well, allow me to kindly say that you're wrong.
**So why be grateful to the current failure Ishy, when he could have rewarded someone like Cyndane (who is Lanfear) for freeing him?**
Once again, when did Ishamael fail? He died -- oh no! That's not failure. It sucks, and you get a reminder for it, but what Ishamael did in the past is so much more influencial than any other Forsaken activities that we have seen. Lanfear would be close, but she has two drawbacks:
1. She didn't plan to free the Dark One -- it was an accident.
2. She was planning to have Rand join her and then seperate completely from the Dark One.
Ishamael's track record is nothing but achievement in comparison, with the only milding drawback of his death -- which again is quickly rectified by his transmigration.
**I have no clue what you're talking about. I'm not gonna get in an argument about whether or not it's choice or constraint keeping the Chosen away from the True Power, but it really didn't have any relevance to my point.**
It used to be choice, but now only Ishamael/Moridin has the ability to use the True Power now since his raising to Nae'blis.
**Unless you're arguing that because both Ishy and Moridin use the True Power they must be one and the same.**
It's not that they used it -- it's that they are both True Power addicts. No one else in the series that we have seen is a True Power addict, except Ishamael and Moridin.
**(unless I'm missing a quote saying that the Chosen we're cut off from True Power?)**
Yes.
**TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 13 - Wonderful News
"Demandred flinched in spite of himself. That had been the True Power; he had felt nothing. A black speck floated across Moridin's blue eyes, then another, in a steady stream. The man must have been using the True Power exclusively since he last saw him to gain so many saa so quickly. He himself had never touched the True Power except at need. Great need. Of course, only Moridin had that privilege now, since his . . . anointing. The man truly was insane to use it so freely. It was a drug more addictive than saidin, more deadly than poison."
We don't have a concrete timing for when Moridin was raised to Nae'blis, but it was early The Path of Daggers at earliest I believe, due to Graendal's summoning. Before that, it's hard to say and guesswork.
Before being raised, the Forsaken could all use the True Power if they needed it and the Dark One let them. Since his raising, only Moridin can.
And there is no reference to the True Power being "stronger" than the One Power.
**Most of the Chosen we're too... prudent, to use the True Power much.**
All the more reason why Ishamael fits perfectly -- only he used it so freely, just like Moridin.
28
Anubis: 2005-07-19
2 things.
1. True Power is not stronger then One Power. It has its advantages, true, but as far as strength goes there is either no evidence either way, or evidence stating that it is similar in power.
2. Lanfear betrayed the Dark One and planned to use the Choden Kal on him. This would piss him off a little more then Ishmael dying while obeying orders.
29
Ishamael: 2005-07-19
first..Be'lal being Moridin..haha..no..he was most definitely BFed..there is nothing, nathan, nada of him for the DO to transmigrate. He ceases to exist..like the other BFed Forsaken...so that leaves Ishy...Ishy was way to powerful and an effective bada** for the DO to just let his soul sit in the pool. The DO needs him...hes the Anti-Al'thor...and as to why he was rewarded Nae'blis after his slight failure in Tear..well..callandor provided enough reasons for that...but if those aren't good enough...how about the DO's need to restore order to the remaining Forsaken? Clearly there is something lacking in the Forsaken's ranks...before Moridin...they were all scheming against eachother as much as against the forces of light. Sure..the DO wants only the strongest servents..but that doesn't mean allowing all his strongest servents to kill eachother off. Without them..his victory over the Light will be much more difficult. So the DO brought Ishy back..named him Nae'blis to start having the remaining Forsaken work as a team. As to why the other Forsaken are fearful instead of weary like they were of Ishy...well..He's Nae'blis..thats reason enough..some of the others were all but promised..but Moridin got the title...hes the Champion..he holds the belt...naturally..they are gonna be fearful...besides..Ishy is the only guy with a True Power addiction..all the others are as fearful of that as they are of the DO..come on..Lanfear basically discovered the True Power in semi-releasing the DO...drilling the bore to find a new source of Power..one in with isn't separated into a male and female half...but not once..have I seen an instant where she used the True power...it is an Ishy thing..end of story
30
Simarilius-Grey: 2005-07-29
So...Be'lal's claim to Moridin has been refuted. Jordan himself has admitted that one's soul can survive with just a minimal use of balefire. That leaves open the possibility of Be'lal's reincarnation. Now I've no clue at this moment who it could be. Does anyone have any suggestions?
