hardcore fan freaks of the wheel of time
Theoryland Resources
WoT Interview Search
Search the most comprehensive database of interviews and book signings from Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson and the rest of Team Jordan.
Wheel of Time News
An Hour With Harriet
2012-04-30: I had the great pleasure of speaking with Harriet McDougal Rigney about her life. She's an amazing talent and person and it will take you less than an hour to agree.
The Bell Tolls
2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."
Theoryland Community
Members: 7653
Logged In (0):
Newest Members:johnroserking, petermorris, johnadanbvv, AndrewHB, jofwu, Salemcat1, Dhakatimesnews, amazingz, Sasooner, Hasib123,
Theoryland Tweets
Theories
Recent Comments
Last ten comments at Theoryland.
The Bore is in Tel’aran’rhiodIf DO was able to alter reality with power...by Amaentes
Callandor's PurposeJust wanted to comment on something in reg...by Joram
Mat's luck is caused by the daggerSorry to necro this thread, but I was just...by Joram
The Real SlayerI was just thinking that since the Finns l...by jimbop79
Verin Compelled AlannaThis was alluded to early on, but let me s...by jimbop79
When the Dark One winsAlthough the books are over here is what m...by pjrobertson
Moghedien Raises the DeadThis has a lot of spoilers, so please, if ...by NaeblisSunshine
Mat & the Horn of ValereWow, found a link to this while purging my...by shaihalud
Breaking the SealsNow see, Rand isn't the only one who wants...by MMustafa
Nakomi's Soul Is BrownIn the epilogue as rand is carrying Moridins ...by Waxer
Recent Theories
Last ten theories at Theoryland.
Padan Fain, Roommates With the Dark Oneby aNewAge
The Real Slayerby Cabadrin
How the Bore Will Be Sealedby Tremalking
The Bore is in Tel’aran’rhiodby Great Lord of the Dark
Callandor's Purposeby RealAshaman
Rand and the True Powerby Zombie Sammael
Caemlyn's Battleby 1eyedfool
Moghedien Raises the Deadby Truthless
Breaking the Sealsby Kamaul
Let me die forever!by Kamaul
Home | Index | Archives | Help
hy the Seals are breaking?
by Traveller: 2005-07-30 | 3 out of 10 (4 votes)
Previous Categories: Miscellaneous
"In sackcloth and ashes shall he clothe the people, and he shall break the world again by his coming, tearing apart all tier that bind."
"The breaker of bonds..."
"And it shall come to pass that what men made shall be shattered..."
"With you. . . . He shall spill out the blood of those who call themselves Aiel as water on sand, and he shall break them as dried twigs, yet the remnant of a remnant shall he save, and they shall live."
These quotes could be interpreted as he will break the seals simply by coming into being.
From here, I think it is simply agreeing with other theories about "clearing away the rubble" because it might be that he must break the seals in order to face the Dark One and finally and utterly defeat him.
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2005-09-10
Okay, Traveller, while I would still like you to spend more time developing this idea, I will let this one through. It isn't as well argued as I prefer, but it is an interesting thought. The only other, more significant belief about the seals, which I happen to believe at the moment, deals with draining the Eye. But you bring up an interesting idea. Are the seals tied to the Dragon, and is his existence, his being the Dragon, weakening the seals somehow? There isn't much proof you can cite, beyond the prophecies suggesting his breaking of bonds that tie, but it is ironic, which I like.
therobotbadger: 2005-09-11
Perhaps, then, if his very existence is tied to the seals, once they all finally break Rand will die.
William Seeker: 2005-09-11
It's the best explanation I've heard. But perhaps not by coming into being but by accepting who he is. Note that the Seal breaks the knife EOTW, but later on anyone with a hammer can break them.
IkilledAsmodean: 2005-09-11
I honestly do not see where that says he will break the seals themselves. Grante,d some of the quotes are a tad vague, and could be construed as forseeing him breaking anything from an entire people, to a child's puppy. It doesn't however, convince me he will be the cause of the seals' destruction.
Your first quote is simply about him taking apart the accepted ranks and stations, bringng the low high, and the high low. The second quote is just an extension of the first. The third is your best quote, but fails when considered that it was he who made the seasl, not just men. The fourth is actually quite unrelated to anything but the Aiel themselves, and I'm not entirely sure why you used it.
I think a more likely explanation is the seal breaking due to the inevitability of the Last Battle, or even the actual naming of a Ne'Blis. Until further proof is provided, I can't agree with this theory on any level.
Dreamwolf: 2005-09-12
I find it interesting that you think it's because the "True Dragon" is born.
When Rand fights Ba'alzamon over Falme, Taim is also fighting a war. Taim already proclaimed himself the Dragon, but Rand had not. However, when he did, Taim saw the vision of Rand fighting Ba'alzamon, and light knocked him from his horse. The false Dragon was cast down.
Rand did not proclaim himself, though. Ba'alzamon did. Ba'alzamon called him the Dragon, searched the world for him, named him Lews Therin, fought him in the sky for all to see and know him as the Dragon. Rand didn't name himself Dragon 'til the end of TDR.
What I'm trying to get at is, maybe Ba'alzamon named Rand the Dragon just so the ceals could break. Remember, we don't actually see the ceal in TEotW 'til Rand comes back. While Rand was fighting Ba'alzamon, the ceal could have broken. Perhaps using the eye is what broke it. The eye being used is supposed to be one of the signs the Dragon has been reborn, thus you have the inevitability of all the ceals being destroyed with that first breaking.
I'm not sure why Rand or Ba'alzamon would have to proclaim him, though. Rand is the incarnation of Lews Therin; he's already Ta'verin long before Moiraine finds him. Why bother searching him out? Ba'alzamon could have just left him in the Two Rivers to rot, as some of those alternate worlds suggest could happen. The only thing that comes to mind is that Ba'alzamon manipulated them into going to the Eye. But, why bother? Aginor would have used up the Eye if Rand hadn't shown up, and the ceal would have been destroyed anyway. Tricky-tricky.
All this pondering is making me wander down strange paths. Maybe I'll write my own theory soon. I'm not sure about what, but I want to explore this idea.
I think your theory is malformed, but interesting.
Anubis: 2005-09-12
Its debating causality...
Are the seals weakening because the dragon is born, or is the dragon born because the seals are weakening?
Its circular reasoning and RJ would probably tell you as much.
lurk: 2005-09-12
Actually nowhere in the books is mentioned how exactly the seals were made and how they were used except as focal points for the channeling needed to seal the bore.
btw the weakening happend before the naming of Nablis. Moridin claimes to be named naeblis and that is long after the seals weakening.
Personally i believe the sealing always to have been a temporal solution dictated by the pattern. So with that assumption it is plausible that the pattern itself is the source of the weakening of the seals. Menaning that it has always been inevitable that the seals would weaken (makes sense because the prophecy says that the dragon should be reborn to fight the last battle, something not necesary with decent (read everlasting)seals.
Cyberkil: 2005-09-12
I believe that Tarmon Gaidon will happen when Rand decides it should. He was given the hint from Harid Fel, but other recent prophesy bears it up.
I believe it was Egwene who dreamed of Rand walking toward a mountain and breaking things under his feet, when she looked it was the Seals on the Dark One's Prison and she woke up in shock.
The hurried note from Harid Fel was an answer to Rand about his question about sealing the Bore. I believe that he received an answer from the Finns about it and he asked Harid to clarify. From what I remember, that's the clear away the rubble reference. I take that to mean that to seal the bore, Rand must break all of the seals and start from scratch.
Yaga Shura: 2005-09-12
" I believe that Tarmon Gaidon will happen when Rand decides it should. He was given the hint from Harid Fel, but other recent prophesy bears it up. "
What other prophecies? (if you mean egwene's dream to fill this capacity, I don't buy it. It's not Rand snapping the seals; it's the seals breaking on the path to TG) I don't think Rand can be said to have any control over the timing of TG. If he did, he wouldn't need to worry about which of his problems (seanchan, shadow etc.) to solve first because he could just put the shadow on hold for a few years.
"The hurried note from Harid Fel was an answer to Rand about his question about sealing the Bore. I believe that he received an answer from the Finns about it and he asked Harid to clarify. From what I remember, that's the clear away the rubble reference. I take that to mean that to seal the bore, Rand must break all of the seals and start from scratch."
Yes. That seems to be exactly what has to happen.
JakOShadows: 2005-09-12
lurk: I do think your idea is possible. But remember when Nyneave and Elayne are carrying the seals to the rebel Aes Sedai in Salidar and they feel really evil right before they break. This reference I think could disprove your idea, but I like your idea anyway.
lurk: 2005-09-13
"But remember when Nyneave and Elayne are carrying the seals to the rebel Aes Sedai in Salidar and they feel really evil right before they break. This reference I think could disprove your idea, but I like your idea anyway. "
Thanks for the reference I'll look it up to see if it changes my mind.
Traveller: 2005-09-13
JakoShadows:
I don't really see how this disproves my theory as the evil coming through could simply be because the seals are so weak that those who touch it could feel the evil of the Dark One coming through.
However, I do apologise for the sloppiness of the theory- I didn't really thibnk it through properly before I wrote it.
Anubis: 2005-09-13
No.
The Last Battle will happen when the seals are broken. This is why the Dark is trying to take the seals back from Rand. Right now Rand determines the time of the last battle, which is his strategic advantage.
Yaga Shura: 2005-09-13
"The Last Battle will happen when the seals are broken. This is why the Dark is trying to take the seals back from Rand. Right now Rand determines the time of the last battle, which is his strategic advantage"
I've forgotten: do we have confirmation that all the seals are now able to be broken?
The thing is, there are prophecies detailing when the LAst BAttle will happen.
Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.
Once for mourning, once for birth.
Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.
In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow. shows that TG will happen on a day that dawns twice. Rand isn't in control of that, so it isn't as simple as breaking the seals.
The Shadow want the seals ot to speed the onset of TArmon Gaidon, but to increase the power the DO has over the world pre-TG.
Jiana: 2005-09-13
LORD OF CHAOS, “Thorns,” paperback pg. 880
-Herid Fel's note to Rand: “Belief and order give strength. Have to clear rubble before you can build...”
While we have a pretty good idea what "clearing the rubble" is, what does the first line, regarding belief and order, refer to? Belief and order give strength, but to what? People as a whole? That goes without saying. I think the strength referred to is the strength of the seals. How many times has it been mentioned that the general populace no longer believes in shadowspawn? It is my understanding that some don't even believe in the Dark One, and a great many people don't believe the Last Battle is coming. So, it is my opinion that as the years have passed, people have stopped believing in the evil, and thus stopped believing in the seals, which in turn weakened them. At the time the seals were made, the Dark One's touch was heavy on the world, and evident that it WAS the Dark One. Therefore the belief. Now that not so many people believe in the evil, what need to believe in seals to hold that evil at bay? This could be one of the reasons why the seals must be broken. The evil has to be unleashed to its fullest extent in order for people to really believe in it, and then pray for (and receive) the salvation that only the Dragon Reborn can offer. I think that not only all of the seals being broken, but also the belief in evil and the balance, salvation, is going to be crucial to the outcome of the Last Battle.
lurk: 2005-09-14
Makes sense but if the dark one wants the seals to have the strategic advantage why did Taim bring Rand one
Assuming of course that Taim is a darkfriend
Two options
1 Taim wasn't a darkfriend when he came to Rand
2 The dark one is content with the seals in Rands possesion and seeks no strategical advantage by having the seals
1 possible but unlikely regarding the (albeit circumstantial) evidence around Taims age and not being mad from channeling yet and other factors like his knowledge of the age of legendsand the old tongue
2 It is the position of the fisher king that is more important (moridins POV when he plays Sha'rah (sorry dont remember the excact name of the game older than stones)) and Rand (the fisher king) is still behaving to the shadows advantage
The last one is more likely but also the greater gamble
Darkshadow: 2005-09-14
Throughout this whole thoery, nobody has thought about how Aginor and Balthamael could have gotten out of the Bore unless the seals were already weakened to a certain degree.
Meaning that Rand using the Eye wasn't the cause. Also, the idea is that Rand used a lot of the OP and that weakened the seal, well what about the rest of the OP users in Randland? wouldn't they be considered that over 3000 years, the seals didn't weaken because of their use.
Personally, I don't agree with this idea, but if you agree with Rand using the Eye, you also have to agree about every channeler.
Tamyrlin: 2005-09-14
I disagree, Darkshadow, Aginor and Balthamel were are the very cusp of the seal, so close they were able to watch all three thousand years pass them by. But for three thousand years the seals held. Could there have been enough weakness, a very small amount, finally enabling their release? Sure. However, once the Eye is gone, all of the Forsaken come out to play. Your suggestion would be, that with the Eye intact, all of the Forsaken would have escaped their prison by the time the Great Hunt begins?
Traveller: 2005-09-14
lurk: If Taim is a DF, i think he was just incredibly arrogant:
I have just read the page were it occurs today- Rand almost smashes the seal coz LTT is going break it must break it break them break them all must break it, etc, etc, but then when Rand realises and stops himself, he looks at Taim/ Demandred/darkfriend/whoever and Taim is incredibly shocked. If for example, he is Demandrede, he might well know that breaking the seals would be Rand's way to stat TG on his own terms which is why he is horrified that he just gave Rand means to victory.
However this is just one remote possibility, but I do think it possioble.
Yaga Shura: 2005-09-14
Jiana:
"what does the first line, regarding belief and order, refer to? Belief and order give strength, but to what?"
The seals and, indirectly, the prison. The Dark One wants chaos to reign to weaken the prison and give him greter access to the world.
Lurk:
"Assuming of course that Taim is a darkfriend "
Which has now become a pretty big assumption, following the Dragon Con Q&A's, from which we know Taim went to Caemlyn seeking the safety in numbers of the channeling men Rand was gathering.
ThunderWalker: 2005-09-14
*However, once the Eye is gone, all of the Forsaken come out to play.*
I think this is probably coinsidence. LTT and his companions sealed away the DO.
The Eye was created much later to hide the Horn and the seal. Or for some other purpose as well.
Recall Rand's trip through the columns. Woman, along with young men who had not yet gone mad (and could be trusted), purified saidin and created the eye.
The seals were just a band-aid. Over time, the glue started drying up.
Or maybe it is like a shield on the source. Push at it enough, and it will start to slowly unravel.
Or, maybe Ishamael himself weakend the seals by drawing on the True Power. Since that comes from the DO, it had to have passed through or around the patch. It is unclear to me how the Forsaken were sealed away in the first place. Or why they were. Was that LTT's doing, or was that done by the DO - snagging them away so he would have them later. Part of his last strike aginst LTT (causing the taint). I would think that LTT would kill them rather than seal them away, if it was his choice.
Tamyrlin: 2005-09-14
Again, the existence of the Eye is ridiculous if it was merely meant to hide the banner and one seal. So many people died in its creation, and so much effort was gone to create it. Why not just hide the banner and seal at the Eye, without the pure Saidin? I think the seals were likely weakening after they were placed and the Aes Sedai created the Eye in an attempt to hold back the taints effect on the seals.
ThunderWalker: 2005-09-14
If that is the case, why just one seal (focus point). Why would hiding one seal under a pool of distilled saidin hold back the taints affect on all the seals?
I think it more likely that the pool was created so Rand would have access to a large amount of saidin to "force" him, without making him crazy from the taint.
If it was made for that purpose, it may be unfortunate for him that Aginor channelled a portion of it too. (And it apparently had healing properties for him as well, so it was not completely the same as untainted saidin).
Anubis: 2005-09-14
Here's a question...
Are the seals really breaking?
I was under the impression that they were just getting really really really weak. And things like battles and earthquakes and being tossed areound a wagon by stupid annoying girls were breaking them. I think the seals still retain the power to stop the Dark One as long as some outside force does not break them. The Dark One just has the power to weaken them untill that outside force can be incredibly weak. Hence Rand packing them in huge soft bales of cotton or whatever.
Anubis: 2005-09-14
Gah DUAL REPLYAGE....
the seals are breaking because idiots who arent Rand Al'Thor dont realize that they are fragile, and treat them like invincible cuellindar and toss them around.
JakOShadows: 2005-09-14
Tam:I've though about your idea a little bit and it might have some merit. Because Moraine found on of the seals in the pool of pure saidin, so maybe it was put there to be protected. I just don't see how the eye being where and what it is would be to help protect the seals. I see it more as resources they knew the dragon reborn would need to fight the shadow at some point(a prophecy of some sorts).
Yaga Shura: 2005-09-15
"the seals are breaking because idiots who arent Rand Al'Thor dont realize that they are fragile, and treat them like invincible cuellindar and toss them around. "
If they just kept getting increasingly weaker, eventually they would break anyway.
Anubis: 2005-09-15
**If they just kept getting increasingly weaker, eventually they would break anyway.**
Yes, but the seals will last a hell of alot longer if you treat them carefully. Just like anything else in the world. Its just like they are pottery and not cuellendar.
JakOShadows: 2005-09-15
Yaga Shura:
I know what you mean. As they get weaker and weaker the more likely they are to break, but what they're saying is that an outside force not the DO can break them. So in your case if they more and more weaker over time a solid breeze might just blow the particles apart. We don't know, but I like the idea that since the DO is outside of the weaving of the wheel he can't physically break the seals no matter how weak the are.
Kylin Taimar: 2005-09-15
Let us presume that without the female half of the One Power being used on the seals, that they are incomplete. LTT would have known this, and was at best sealing the Bore for a period of time. He was ‘hoping' for the best at the time. He didn't predict the backlash on the male half of the OP, and would probably not have attempted to seal the Bore. Let us also presume, because the wheel turns, that the Seals can not be broken until a time when the Dragon is Reborn. When the Dragon is reborn, then we know that Tar'mon Gaidon is close at hand, and the only way to fight the Dark One is if he's free. The only way for him to be free is if the Seals are broken. There are two parts to what Fal Herid wrote: “Belief and order give strength, have to clear the rubble to rebuild.” I'll go with Jiana's interpretation of belief, but I'll add on to it.
Don't you think it's a bid odd for the Dark One to say “Let the Lord of Chaos rule.”? Unless of course chaos weakens the seals as well. Rand is young and new at this game, though he learns quickly, he has yet to get everyone behind him. Until the point where people not only believe in the Dragon Reborn (the dragon reborn acts not only as the champion of the Creator and the Light but also as a focal point for their hopes and prayer), everything he does seems to set people against one another, even while trying to unify them.
The seals are about as effective as the world they are sustained by; and a world divided has little strength to offer. A little bit of my thought on this as well. The seals are only half as strong as they needed to be, as the Bore was drilled using both halves of the OP. It is my belief that RJ is showing us something very important in the differences between Age of Legend channelers and Third Age channelers, and how the Bore will be sealed this time. The AoL knew nothing of bonding, and here is where the strength of Third Age channelers comes in. There is a strength that comes from investing part of yourself in another person, something that goes beyond the intellectual agreement of cooperation.
Bonding gives you a direct conduit, link to that other person(s); you have much more invested in someone and what happens to them, if you're going to be on the other end of what happens to them. It will take the strength and power of all of them to defeat the Dark One and his Dreadlords. So why are the Seals breaking? In order for their to be an end and a beginning.
dwilson: 2005-09-16
unsure if there is any real hard evidence but has anyone noticed that whilst the seals have been breaking Padan Fain has been getting stronger. ie his power is increasing, the less seals there are still intact. which i suppose gives evidence to him being some type physical avatar of the dark one.
lurk: 2005-09-16
Yaga, the darkfriend part of Taim is still bothering me. RJ says he is 29 which is pretty old for a sparker. Rand is channeling for two years and the taint is driving him crazy.Taimmust have been channeling for at least two years because he started earlier than Rand. Logain channeled briefly before he was gentled so he suffers less fromthe taint.
If Taim was a sparker he would not have lasted this long without some sign of madness showing. No other male channeler has shown his resistance against the taint except the forsaken (when cadsuane meetsRand forthe first time and asks about the voices, all the present ashaman shift nervously.They are all turning mad)
If Taim was a learner, who taught him? Could only have been a male forsaken there is noone else.
Either way both possibilities point heavily at Taim being a darkfriend. But they are no evidence. Hence my confusion. But that is way I assume he is a darkfriend.
Traveler:
Taim is shocked because he doesn'tknow why Rand wanted to destroy the seal at that moment (he doesn't know about LTT ranting in Rands head). He could simply have gotten the order,bring the seal to Rand to come into his favor.LTT (reborn that is) will break it when we have manouvered him in the right position for the dark one when he (Rand) breaks the seals. Winning by positioning the fisher king in that final position that whatever step Rand takes will ensure victory for the dark one.
JakOShadows: 2005-09-18
Kylin: In general I like most of statements. If LTT had known about the backlash he would have been less likely to do it. And the bit about the warder bonds and similar stuff, I do think there is some truth to that. If it can be use directly, I don't know, but the mindset I think is the most important part. I just don't think that chaos is what is weakening the seals. Maybe the chaos and weakening of the seals is an effect of the DO becoming stronger. Think about it. The seals get weaker. The DO has more effect on the world, which creates more chaos. I do think they are related somehow, but not precisely in the way your thinking.
Callandor: 2005-09-18
**Let us presume that without the female half of the One Power being used on the seals, that they are incomplete. LTT would have known this, and was at best sealing the Bore for a period of time. He was ‘hoping' for the best at the time.**
The use of women in the sealing wouldn't have done anything. They were only thought to be included because it was thought that women had to partake in it for precision sealing.
If they would've taken part, saidar would've been tainted as well. RJ has said this in the Budapest interviews.
El Bogarto: 2005-09-19
RJ just recently stated that the ‘black cords' weren't a direct connection to the DO - that's just what Rand thought.
We know that the male forsaken are exclusively provided with taint protection, which is guaranteed by the oaths and bonds to the DO - only Dark, male channelers can apply.
That said, I read a really cool theory the other day that proposed that the ‘black cords' are pure Taint from Saidin, leeching from Saidin (during channeling) to flow back to the DO.
This theory went on to state that the path of least resistance is through the bore – and thus, the seals.
Hence them getting flimsy as a sheet of notebook paper.
LoialReborn: 2005-09-21
Heart Stone is prob made by the OP right? what else is made with the one power and is considered indesructable? Assuming heron maked blades and heart stone are very very simaler I think the Dark One is desroying the Seals period.
Follow me now RJ answered a important question about blademaster blades, (I dont have a link to it so you'll either have to beleave me, name me a liar, or find it for me.) he said that heron marked blades were made using the OP but do not require it to sustain it. for example if you weave a ward (assuming you can channel...I know i can) that cuts channelers off from the TS around a HM sword it doesnt get weakened, its just as strong.
If heart stone is made the same way or a Very very simaler way they should be, in theory, the same or in a very very simaler way respond to things. so why are they so different? HM swords are still kicking but all the Seals are weaking. now what is the difference? the seals are the focal point of the DO's prison. so because of that the DO has to be thrashing his TP at it which may destroy heart stone. Heart stone is immune to OP but no one has ever tested with the TP against it. so the DO is destroying the Seals
JakOShadows: 2005-09-22
Loial: I like your idea, but I don't think the DO can destroy the seal. He might be able to weaken the seals with the one power, which I would agree with sense it is the antithesis of the one power. But no matter what he does, the DO can not break the seal. I do believe that what has happened is that he has weakened them to the point where something as small as an earthquake or someone dropping them could break them, but not actual him doing it himself. Or he would probably be free by now. But good idea overall.
Callandor: 2005-09-22
**Heart Stone is prob made by the OP right? what else is made with the one power and is considered indesructable? Assuming heron maked blades and heart stone are very very simaler I think the Dark One is desroying the Seals period.**
Heartstone is made with the One Power, yes.
Heronmark swords are slightly different since they are power-wrought not cuendillar. Similar though, but different.
The seals are even more different, since they are actually ter'angreal. But in any case, yes more than likely it's the Dark One that is the sole cause of the seals breaking.
Anubis: 2005-09-22
I have a theory... It covers why the seals are weakening, why saidin is tainted and probably something else i havent thought of....
It goes:
Cuellendar draws upon the one power to make itself invincible. If it was made with saidin it draws on saidin.
The Dark One cant touch the True Source, but when the seals were being placed we had a connection. Dark One > Seals > Saidin. The Dark One tainted saidin, but can no longer touch the source because now the seals are in place.
However, the seals draw upon tainted saidin to make themselves invincible. Instead, over time, they grow weaker. I imagine this is some sort of exponential decay that will never reach 100%, meaning some outside force must eventually break the seals, even though that outside force might eventually come to be a sneeze.
Also, I hypothicize that the seals will not get any weaker then they already are.
JakOShadows: 2005-09-23
Anubis:
I see what your saying, but it doesn't make sense to me. Because when a weaving of saidin is made, then you don't see the taint at all. The only person that can feel it, not even see it, is the person who is channeling at the moment. So I don't see how that would affect the seal if it is based on a weaving, not constantly touching it. Unless your saying that cuendillar is constantly weaving itself, but I don't see it happening that way.
Anubis: 2005-09-23
Think about the ways. They were corroupted because they were made with saidin. Its the same concept.
Anubis: 2005-09-23
** Unless your saying that cuendillar is constantly weaving itself, but I don't see it happening that way.**
Yup, thats exactly what im saying. When you try to break Cuellendar it merely draws upon the one power to make itself stronger then whatever is being used against it. Hence the saying that trying to harm cuellendar only made it stronger.
Darkshadow: 2005-09-23
However, you forget that it is a ter'angreal and you don't necessarily have to be a channeler to use them. also, instead of angreal and sa'angreal, ter'angreal don't magnify a persons limit of absorbing the OP but uses the OP to do things, like stopping weaves, entering TAR, etc. If they don't use the OP, then after extensive use, how can they still work unless it is constantly drawing upon the OP????? got any ideas?
Anubis: 2005-09-23
**The seals are even more different, since they are actually ter'angreal. But in any case, yes more than likely it's the Dark One that is the sole cause of the seals breaking.**
Not the sole cause. Every time we have seen a seal break it has been an outside force that does the actual physical breaking.
therobotbadger: 2005-09-23
I don't think the taint has anything to do with the seals. I think it's merely their proximity to the Bore and the DO. It's like the fact that some chemicals can't be stored in plastic containers; the plastic will eventually be eaten away. The same thing is happening to the seals. The evil of the DO is slowly eating away at them. (Whether this means they will eventually break on their own or not, I don't know.)
So, this means that Rand has to find out the proper "stopper" to use on the DO's prison. Well, since he can only get out through this one weak spot, we have to assume that the rest of his prison is solid: he can't get through it. Well, where is his prison? It's the Pattern. And what is the Pattern made of?
Threads.
The only stopper that would be appropriate to permanently seal the DO's prison would be someone's thread (A.K.A. someone's life), and I think Rand will make that sacrifice, dying in order to seal up the DO again.
JakOShadows: 2005-09-23
robotbadger:
I do think you are right that it is the proximity to the DO that is weakening the seals. But I don't think it will just be Rand's death that will seal the prison. And I also thought that the weaving of, say the earth, was different than that of a soul. But I do think it is the weaving of the pattern that will seal it. I believe that it just has to be sealed so that the pattern can seal itself, unlike last time where it prevented to sealing. As to how, I don't know. It is interesting idea though. Maybe it can be used to start the process. I just don't think it will be that alone.
Callandor: 2005-09-24
**Not the sole cause. Every time we have seen a seal break it has been an outside force that does the actual physical breaking.**
Please explain who broke the first, the second, and the third seals.
**Well, where is his prison? It's the Pattern. And what is the Pattern made of?
Threads.
The only stopper that would be appropriate to permanently seal the DO's prison would be someone's thread (A.K.A. someone's life), and I think Rand will make that sacrifice, dying in order to seal up the DO again.**
No. The Dark One's prison was made by the Creator. It's seperate from the Pattern, since both the Dark One and the Creator are beyond the Wheel and Pattern.
Anubis: 2005-09-24
**I don't think the taint has anything to do with the seals. I think it's merely their proximity to the Bore and the DO.**
How could you possibly say this? Its known fact, per RJ, that the seals being placed is what enabled the Dark One to taint Saidin. A connection has already been established.
Yaga Shura: 2005-09-24
lurk:
"If Taim was a sparker he would not have lasted this long without some sign of madness showing."
Sory if this has already been covered on this thread but: who says Taim is sane? For one thing, Rand specualtes that he might be insane
~TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 2 - A New Arrival
Yet Taim paid the soldiers and the Maidens no more outward attention than he did the colonnades' columns or the paving stones beneath his boots. Bravery, real or feigned, or something else? A kind of madness? ~
Also, not all madness would immediately lead to the massive death and destruction associated with it. If Taim is affected by the taint, then it is entirely possible he's going "quietly insane"
Anubis: 2005-09-25
**Please explain who broke the first, the second, and the third seals. **
Lemme think.
First Seal: Aginor going boom! Eye of the world being used.
Second Seal: Huge freaking battle, horn sounding Ishamael in the sky.
Third Seal: Same as second.
And its not who callandor, but what. In all the cases we have seen where a seal has broken there has been... how do I word this... situations where fragile things are very likely to break.
Callandor: 2005-09-25
**Also, not all madness would immediately lead to the massive death and destruction associated with it. If Taim is affected by the taint, then it is entirely possible he's going "quietly insane"**
Name one example of a male channeler going "quietly insane." Rand has been visibly remarked upon being mad (not just common guessing or fear, but people actually having visible reasons to think so) by Egwene, Perrin, Mat, Bashere, Taim, and probably others that I am forgetting.
Fedwin Morr went visibly mad to everybody by turning into the mental state of a toddler.
The unknown soldier at the Black Tower went visibly mad claiming that spiders were crawling beneath his skin.
Lews Therin Telamon was visibly divorced from reality when Ishamael visited him.
We have yet to see one example of a male channeler going "quietly" mad. Rand I would say is the most subtle, or maybe Lews Therin -- and both of them had people recognize signs of madness instantly when they occured.
Not to mention the rotting disease that's the ultimate endpoint of the taint.
JakOShadows: 2005-09-25
Callandor: I thought the first two were broken using the eye, and the third one was broken by darkfriends in the Seanchan. We know Suroth was a darkfriend and she had acces, but it could be anyone.
Yaga Shura: 2005-09-25
"Rand has been visibly remarked upon being mad (not just common guessing or fear, but people actually having visible reasons to think so) by Egwene, Perrin, Mat, Bashere, Taim, and probably others that I am forgetting."
And Rand has "visible reason" to think Taim is insane.
By quietly insane, I just meant nothing on the scale of flattening villages or ripping up the world.
: 2005-09-25
The first seal was found broken where the Eye was, not near where Aginor OD'd on the one power. Besides which, the first seal retained properites of heartstone at that point (Lan's knife snapping?). There is no reason to believe that Aginor broke that seal; as to whether the use of the Eye broke it, I have no idea. The Eye was supposed to contain enough of the One Power to rip open the DO's prison (Moiraine said this in the Eye of the World); I don't really know where i'm going with that, but it seemed relevant :)
As far as the connection between the tainting of the source and the seals: a large group of men was channelling directly at the bore, so the tainting quite probably was more like a backlash than an actual connection, explaining why the men went insane on the spot rather than taking months or years to go mad (i.e.: the DO sent the taint along the flows the channelers had woven, through the channelers and into the source; thus, if women had been included, saidar would be tainted in the same way). "Lews Therin and the sixty-eight survivors of the Hundred Companions went insane on the instant..." (BWB p. 82), this chapter of the BWB also referred to the tainting of saidin as a "Backblast." As such, it may be that the seals were directly affected, but I doubt it. If they were, why did they remain steady for 3000 years and suddenly decline from unbreakable to more-fragile-than-pottery in less than 5 years? The first seal, as mentioned above, was obviously still cuendillar, apparently unbreakable.
As to the idea that heartstone constantly draws on the One Power, I don't see it as likely. Otherwise, wouldn't some of the other cuendillar from the AoL be breaking down as well? That, coupled with the "evil" felt by Nynaeve and Elayne before their seal broke and the lack of such a feeling after the seal broke, leads me to believe that the DO is directly responsible for the weakening of the seals. As he strains to reach out of his prison, he weakens the actual seals and the focal points--the heartstone disks--weaken correspondingly.
To the best of my knowledge, we have yet to directly see a seal broken by an outside force. The one at the Eye was out of view and apparently unbreakable when it was shattered; the two at Falme were also out of view when shattered (only speculation would indicate that darkfriends broke them, even if any darkfriends would know what they were). The one that Elayne and Nynaeve had was wrapped carefully in silks and such, so it's only speculation as to whether the bouncing of the wagon or direct intent of the DO broke it. Basically, we don't know, for certain, how any of the seals were broken; the only breaking with anything approaching proof is that at the Eye, which seems impossible for anyone but the DO to have broken.
Anubis: 2005-09-26
yes, the eye being used. and fine my theory gains another link in its chain.
now we have.
The Dark One is connected to the seals, which are connected to the channelers and to the source. the taint flows to the seals to the source and to the channelers to the source.
Callandor: 2005-09-26
**First Seal: Aginor going boom! Eye of the world being used.
Second Seal: Huge freaking battle, horn sounding Ishamael in the sky.
Third Seal: Same as second.**
Where is the outside phyiscal force?
**In all the cases we have seen where a seal has broken there has been... how do I word this... situations where fragile things are very likely to break.**
That's great, but they weren't fragile at the time. The pieces of the first were clearly still as strong as ever, since they broke Lan's blade.
**Callandor: I thought the first two were broken using the eye, and the third one was broken by darkfriends in the Seanchan. We know Suroth was a darkfriend and she had acces, but it could be anyone.**
1. There was only 1 at the Eye -- and it's not an outside physical force breaking it.
2. Why would the Darkfriends break the objects they thought were cuendillar (and in an obvious cuendillar collection)?
**And Rand has "visible reason" to think Taim is insane.**
Such as? Rand giving into common fears of a male channeler being mad?
Funny that it's not referenced again. All the male channelers we have seen have been visibly mad -- we've yet to see one go quietly. As I said, Rand is probably the most subtle of the insanities we've see, and even his is pretty dang apparent.
**As far as the connection between the tainting of the source and the seals: a large group of men was channelling directly at the bore, so the tainting quite probably was more like a backlash than an actual connection, explaining why the men went insane on the spot rather than taking months or years to go mad**
The sealing of the Dark One's prison by the seals is what allowed him to taint saidin. Not just the One Power being used, but the seals.
**To the best of my knowledge, we have yet to directly see a seal broken by an outside force.**
Closest would be Nynaeve and Elayne breaking the seal, and that was off screen -- the other would be Moiraine chipping part of one seal, but not breaking it.
therobotbadger: 2005-09-26
**To the best of my knowledge, we have yet to directly see a seal broken by an outside force.**
I apologise for not having a direct quote, or even an approximate idea of the circumstances surrounding this action. I do seem to remember someone shaving off a sliver of a seal with a belt knife to demonstrate their weakness. Possibly it was Moiraine. What this says about how all the seals have been broken is basically nil, since they've all still been "off camera", but it does confirm (if the quote itself can be confirmed, of course), that the seals can be broken by purely physical means, and not particularly powerful ones at that.
Dragoon: 2005-10-06
I believe the seals are breaking because of the Dark One. The DO is the source of te TP which seems to eat away at the users body causing at first the saa, later the fire eyes and mouth and I believe later on a sort of decomposing. You know about Photons right? pure energy, pure light, and everything in the universe have an opposite? Y'know like matter and anti-matter well i think there is an anti-photon which would be pure dark energy, pure darkness. I believe the OP to be made up of photons and the TP to made of the Anti-Photons, since the source of the TP is the DO himself then the seals themselves would be constantly being attacked by pure evil. This is breaking down the seals molecular structure causing them to weaken
Anubis: 2005-10-07
Lan broke a knife on one, shaved a piece off another and the supergirls said one felt evil and tainted
lurk: 2005-10-08
I want to add a question that was triggered by dragoons remark about matter and anti-matter.
Heartstone gets harder the more energy (OP) you put into it. Can we theorize on a way to take energy (OP like) away from heartstone It's like bleeding the heartstone or something similar.
Theories anyone?
silverwolf: 2005-10-08
Callandor: "The sealing of the Dark One's prison by the seals is what allowed him to taint saidin. Not just the One Power being used, but the seals. "
Is this from an interview, or just your own opinion? If it's from an interview, I'd like to see it--it may give me some other ideas for this discussion.
When I said that we have yet to "see" a seal broken by an outside physical force, I did not mean to imply that the seals could not be broken by a physical force--it is repeatedly stated in the series how fragile the seals have become. I was arguing the point that we have no evidence that the DO is unable to break the seals without physical help; in fact, there is evidnece that he can.
Dragoon: The cuendillar disks are not the seals--they are simply the focus points of the seals. The actual seals are not physical in nature--they are a construct of the One Power, a human-created means of reparing the damage done by the Bore (and an obviously imperfect means). The TP would not cause a breakdown of the molecular structure of the seals because there is no molecular structure to break down. Rather, think of the disks and the seals as being connected in such a way that what happens to one, happens to both (like in WH with the weave that Elayne and Aviendha use to create the warder bond--it "includes"). As the DO metaphysically hammers away at the actual seals, the focal points weaken correspondingly. Actually, it is somewhat similar to when Rand was shielded in LoC, except that all of the seals are "hard" knots; as each seal breaks (the knot unravels), the barrier (shield) holding the DO back from the world weakens, allowing him to brush it (like Rand felt with the source) but not touch it until the shield is gone.
Dragoon: 2005-10-08
Yeah I know that Silverwolf, but you just said that what happens to one happens to both right? That's what I mean as the seals get weaker so do the focal points and vice versa. What I am talking about is the focal points weakening and if they break so do the seals. The cuendillar is breaking down and becoming brittle and if it breaks so does the corresponding seal.
Callandor: 2005-10-08
**Is this from an interview, or just your own opinion? If it's from an interview, I'd like to see it--it may give me some other ideas for this discussion.**
Interview and intuition. Budapest interview #10, http://www.dragonmount.com/Interviews/ 2003-04-23.php
Jordan said that if women had been present at the sealing of the Bore, saidar would've been tainted as well. So, it's not the sole use of saidin that allowed the Dark One to taint it.
Also:
**Question: Is there a reason the Dark One could not or would not re-taint saidin?
RJ: The conditions would have to be exactly right. Those conditions were set up while the seals were being placed on the Bore. The chances that exactly those conditions would occur again are fairly small. And that is saying that it was a volitional act rather than a side-effect of trying to stop the seals from being placed. After all, if the Dark One could taint saidin at will, why could he not taint saidar as well, and why would he not have done so?**
So, we know it was specific conditions with the sealing that did it. What are they?
1. Only male channelers.
2. The seals themselves.
If you think of any others, feel free to add them. RJ has cleared the channelers, since saidar would've been tainted if women participated as well. What's left? The seals themselves.