oghedien: The Key to the Last Battle
by Flinn Sedai: 2005-08-02 | 2.5 out of 10 (6 votes)
From the title, it is safe to assume that most of you think I am at least mildly insane. However, I was reading the books again, getting ready for KoD, and I came across something that might help to explain a portion of the Karaethon Cycle, so reserve judgement for the end.
"Twice and Twice shall he be marked, Twice to live, and Twice to die. Once the heron, to set his path. Twice the heron, to name him true. Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost. Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay."
The first heron that set his path has already been revealed, as has the second heron to "name him true".
We have seen the first Dragon for "remembrance lost". However, the second Dragon for the "price he must pay" has not yet come.
To begin on this portion, the question is, what is he paying for? It has usually been assumed that it refers to saving the world. This has gone generally unquestioned, however I find it odd that neither Rand, nor Lews Therin have ever asked, "What is the price of saving the world?" They don't even ask along those lines, because to them, there are more important things. Chiefly among those being Elayne/Ilyena. Lews Therin constantly moans about what price he must pay to atone for killing Ilyena Sunhair. This leads me to believe that the price he must pay, is for becoming Kinslayer.
Now, that may seem a bit odd as Lews Therin is 3000 years dead, and his reincarnation is still alive. I am also aware that a reincarnation of a soul can hardly be called to account for a previous life's sins, as much as men would like to make it so.
Now, "Twice to live, and Twice to die". It may seem impossible to live and die twice, and this has become one of the hardest to decipher portions of the Prophecies.
While I am a firm believer that Nynaeve will discover some way to heal death, I do not believe that it will be used on Rand for one simple reason. While it is possible that she could bring him back to life, the Dark One is perfectly capable of stealing his soul while he has just died, and therefore turning Rand to his service. This would not be the case however, if he was balefired back in time, then his soul is safe, and Rand is dead.
As we saw in The Dragon Reborn, Lews Therin Telamon is tied to the Horn of Valere, and thus remains in Tel'aran'rhiod while waiting to be reborn. There is nothing that would lead me to believe that he would not go there instantly upon death.
Now, here is where Moghedien comes in.
Moghedien knows more of Tel'aran'rhiod than anybody that we have met thus far. In fact, Moghedien knows enough of Tel'aran'rhiod to rip a Hero of the Horn out of it. As well, she is a coward and will give up any knowledge that she believes will win her her freedom. Consider if you will, if she were to teach that ability to Egwene, a very Talented Dreamer.
Then, upon Rand's death, she does something very similar, gentler of course, as he needs to be in full strength, to Lews Therin Telamon.
It does not say that the Dragon will be born twice. Rather, it says that he will live twice.
Lews Therin Telamon, bearing full knowledge of the Age of Legends, the Third Age, and several other Ages that he was born into, as well as being the most powerful channeler and a Ta'veren, alive and hale.
Well, I think that between the Asha'man, the Aes Sedai, and a living Lews Therin, the Dark One will be dealt with in short order. However, on the slopes of Shayol Ghul, Lews Therin will of course die according to prophecy.
This would also fit into the funeral bier that was somehow a fake.
Elayne, Aviendha and Min would all mourn his passing even if it were all just a plan to bring Lews Therin back to beat up the Dark One.
Also, Lews Therin was known as "Lord of the Morning". Perhaps he knows a way to make the Sun rise twice on the same day.
To summarize this theory: Somebody, it is irrelevant who, will balefire Rand back in time to keep his soul from being stolen, thus completing the first death. Then, Egwene will go to Tel'aran'rhiod and bring Lews Therin Telamon to life, using knowledge gained from Moghedien. Lews Therin will defeat the Dark One, thus paying the price for killing all of his kin and Ilyena. However, he will suffer a mortal blow, and die. His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul shall free humanity from the Shadow. Thus fulfilling prophecy. He will live twice, and die twice.
I know that I am missing some quotes, and if somebody would be kind enough to supply them, I would be most grateful.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2005-09-16
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
Some flaws in this that should be addressed:
1) Why would Mognedien teach Egwene to rip people our of t'a'r?
2) Why would the modern ladies sacrifice up Rand just to get Lews Therin? They're all fixated on Rand, Lews Therin is little more than an idea to them.
3) The Lord of the Morning getting the sun to rise twice?!? If you want this to fit your theory, i would've said that Twice Ddawns the day, once for mourning (the death of Rand) and once for rebirth (of Lews Therin). Birgitte refers to her current status as a strange rebirth, after all, so the stretch isn't as flagrant as with LTT getting the sun to rise twice because of his nifty title.
Overall, i think you're trying to stretch things too much to get them to fit into the mold laid out by prophecy. But since anything trying to do that is pure speculation, why not?
2
Flinn Sedai: 2005-09-16
Well, I assumed that LTT does know how to control the sun's rise and fall, based on the fact that he got that title. While a lot of titles do stretch what the person actually does, "Watcher of the Seals", it is still generally a good indication of their abilities.
3
Garayur: 2005-09-16
Wow. um yeah wow. Okay where to begin...
*We have seen the first Dragon for "remembrance lost". However, the second Dragon for the "price he must pay" has not yet come.*
Yes it has. incase you hadn't noticed Rand has two dragons Tattooed onto his arms. The first, the one that all clan chiefs get, is Proof that they went through the Ter'angreal in ruhiden and recieved the memories. The *For remembrance lost* part. The second tattoo shows that he is the Car'a'carn and will pay the price that is associateed with the posotion.
*He shall spill out the blood of those who call themselves Aiel as water on sand, and he shall break them as dried twigs, yet the remnant of a remnant shall he save, and they shall live.*
*The stone that never falls will fall to announce his coming. Of the blood, but not raised by the blood, he will come from Rhuidean at dawn, and tie you together with bonds you cannot break. He will take you back, and he will destroy you.*
*Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay.*
That is refering to the price not what he is paying it for, The price is what he will do to the world and *His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul...* This is fairly staight forward. as to what he is paying for that is fairly straight forward as well. Just look at the Karaethon Cycle.
*Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.
Once for mourning, once for birth.
Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.
In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.*
He is paying for the freedom of man from the dark one.
*Moghedien knows more of Tel'aran'rhiod than anybody that we have met thus far. In fact, Moghedien knows enough of Tel'aran'rhiod to rip a Hero of the Horn out of it. As well, she is a coward and will give up any knowledge that she believes will win her her freedom. Consider if you will, if she were to teach that ability to Egwene, a very Talented Dreamer.*
Moghedian is most likely dead and the dark one probably won't bring her back after 2 failures.
*It was wind that howled then, rushing toward the vanished dome, dragging her along the stony ground no matter how desperately she clawed for purchase, tumbling her against trees, lifting her into the air. Strangely, she still felt no fear. She thought if she survived this, she would never feel fear again.*
Although it is possible for her to survive it isn't something I would bet on, The dome was massive, and if the strenth of the vacume created is enough to drag her like that then when she lands it will probably be a long ways away with a lot of debris.
As to the Tearing LTT from the wheel, it would probably make it impossible to be reborn again. I don't want to get into that part right now. I will leave that to somebody else.
4
therobotbadger: 2005-09-16
**We have seen the first Dragon for "remembrance lost". However, the second Dragon for the "price he must pay" has not yet come. **
Rand is in fact marked with two Dragons, one on each forearm, which he received in Rhuidean. My interpretation is that "rememberance lost" means his knowledge of the history of the Aiel, and "the price he must pay" is related to the fact that only a "remnant of a remnant" of the Aiel will survive. I believe that "the price he must pay" is also related to the rest of the world. It is a constant reminder to him that he must destroy the world in order to save it.
That's just me, though.
5
William Seeker: 2005-09-16
A few things. First; there's a passage in the 5th or 6th book that says that the DO can't bring someone back when they've been balefired (Rahvin). Not even their soul, so I doubt egwene could do it. Second: Don't the Karaethon Cycle say the Dragon Reborn has to fight? Not Lews Therin.
6
JakOShadows: 2005-09-16
I agree with Tam on this one. In fact, every theory I've seen involves some stretching. I think the problem is everyone is trying to think up a meaning for everyline. If you look at the line "twice the dragon for the price he must pay" it happened at the same time right. Because he had to go through the columns to get it. There might be something we don't know about yet that will make the twice dawns the day part of the prophecy work but I don't think we have enough information yet. It could be an eclipse of some sort, or the immense amount the of power being used in battle will shift the rotation of the world so the day dawns twice, or there could be a giant cloud created by the DO at the LB. I don't know, but we shouldn't try and fit it in to everyday circumstances that we see in the book right now because it definitely won't happen that way. I think the reason no one can find an explanation that seems logical is that we don't have the full knowledge required yet, a lot still has to happen in the last two books.
Oh, and I don't think there is a gentle way to be ripped out of t'a'r. And the title Lord of the Morning seems to be taken so literally, when really I don't see it as literal thing but metaphysical. He renews the world, brings the dawning of new day in a new age, not that he has the ability to make the sun rise in the morning or anything like that. I think it simply means he the harbinger of change, for better as it would imply.
7
Callandor: 2005-09-16
**This has gone generally unquestioned, however I find it odd that neither Rand, nor Lews Therin have ever asked, "What is the price of saving the world?"**
Because the price is obvious: Rand's death.
**While I am a firm believer that Nynaeve will discover some way to heal death, I do not believe that it will be used on Rand for one simple reason. While it is possible that she could bring him back to life, the Dark One is perfectly capable of stealing his soul while he has just died, and therefore turning Rand to his service. This would not be the case however, if he was balefired back in time, then his soul is safe, and Rand is dead.**
1. Healing death is ludicrious. Death is death, not Healable.
2. The Dark One is not capable of taking Rand's soul. If he could, he would've taken the Dragon soul at any other time it was dead in history. Or, he would've taken all the other souls and done whatever with them. He can control the souls sworn to him.
**As well, she is a coward and will give up any knowledge that she believes will win her her freedom.**
No, she won't give up information that she believes will get her killed.
**Consider if you will, if she were to teach that ability to Egwene, a very Talented Dreamer.**
And where would Moghedien be found again? It's very possible that she's already dead since the Cleansing.
**Also, Lews Therin was known as "Lord of the Morning". Perhaps he knows a way to make the Sun rise twice on the same day.**
Overall, if anything, I'd say that Lanfear would be a key to the Last Battle, because she might be able to help with whatever knowledge she could lend about the Bore. But that could also come from Lews Therin in Rand's head, since he does give factual information and true memories. So, I don't buy it.
8
Paendrag: 2005-09-17
I don't know why I like this since it is quite far fetched. Moggy is quite the coward and would teach the skill of ripping someone from T'A'R if she thought it would save her hide for one more day. Who knows? I don't know if Lews Therin's soul would go back to T'A'R if Rand is balefired, though. The issue hasn't come up yet, so that part would definitely shoot this theory down if Lews Therin wouldn't go back to T'A'R after Rand is balefired.
9
Jahar Narishma: 2005-09-17
I don't know that Moghedien is necessary for this at all, or that it needs to be planned from the get-go. If Rand were killed, possibly according to my theory on this subject, it is entirely possible that Egwene might figure out on her own how to get him back from TAR, without needing to be told by Moghedien. It is entirely possible that she wouldn't need to plan it out, that she might wind up running into Rand/LT in her normal TAR journeys, and remember what Elayne told her about bringing out Birgitte.
Of course, it is also possible for him to be killed and then just brought back when Mat blows the Horn. This, in fact, could be the real reason why the Horn is so valuable...I mean, not just that getting Hawkwing and all those other heroes would be great, but that it could determine which side gets Rand at the Last Battle. No wonder everyone wants it.
I think that this theory needs a little work, but it does explain the "To live you must die" and "Twice to live, twice to die" part. Incidentally, the "twice to die" part implies that he might still be killed in the Last Battle afterwards, thus setting up the boat scene.
Incidentally, this also explains the foreshadowing of Rand going into TAR with his whole body, and why it is so imperative for Egwene to learn Dreaming. In fact, one could even imagine that a whole portion of the Last Battle might occur within TAR, given that Rand, Egwene, and Perrin all have significant skills there. Add to this the fact that Moiraine [i]may[/i] be in TAR in that tower with the 'Finn, and she may be essential to Rand winning, and we have a serious consideration for a bipartite battle occurring in the Real World led by Mat, the Aes Sedai, and the Ashaman, and a TAR battle with Egwene, Rand, Perrin, and possibly Moiraine. This would nicely mirror the end of TGH, as well.
10
Wompat: 2005-09-17
on this one, i agree with Tam, its a cool idea, but we have no indication that Egwene learned that from moggy, and now that moridin has her, i dont think she'll be allowed to be recaptured. also, i think that the connection to the prophesies are a bit of a stretch
11
freya23: 2005-09-18
I'm not sure that it really changes your theory all that much, but Rand was marked with both dragons in Rhuidean, not just one. Since both dragons were recieved through his connection with the Aiel, I always thought that the price he must pay was either related to letting the Maidens fight and die for him, or that he will destroy the Aiel except for a remnant of a remnant. Also, perhaps the dying twice has more to do with two sources of evil battling it out in the wound on his side, and that, like the cleansing of the taint on the male half of the source, once they both 'kill him,' he will live.
12
A-train: 2005-09-18
Forgive me if I'm worng, but aren't the dragons in the prophecy the dragons on Rand's arms?If so, then the first dragon "for rememberance lost" refers to the connection between the Aiel and the way of the leaf. The second dragon "the price he must pay" coonects to the fact that a remnant of a remnant of the Aiel will survive.(Can't remember the quote and I didn't bring the books with me to college. Sorry!) The price paid in Aiel blood. I'm drawing this from the thought that when the Herons were branded, the corresponding responses were immediate.( setting him on the path and being proclaimed in the vision of fire in the sky at the end of the great hunt ) As to the dragons, the Aiel know their past, and lastly the price paid is the spilling of blood that started when the Aiel crossed over from the waste with Rand and will end after the last battle. The chief of chiefs will pay for victory with the blood of his people. Sorry that kind of spilled into a theory of my own.
13
drz1649: 2005-09-19
Doesn't Rand have a dragon tattoed on each arm (i.e. he has two), thus satisfying the Aiel prophecy of the Caracarn? Also, what's the point of balefiring Rand before the Last Battle? If you are correct - and that happens - then what was the point of his existing at all when somebody can just rip Lews Therin from TAR to do the job at any time? It just doesn't fit the arc of the story, in my opinion. Everything Rand does is build-up to the LB, it would be supremely weak to permanently kill him before it even happened.
14
Balinor: 2005-09-19
I hate to rain on your parade, but I think you're making mountains out of molehills (or more correctly, out of a misreading). The "Twice to live, and Twice to die" part refers to his being marked, NOT that he will live and die twice. More clearly, the line should be read as, "Twice (marked) to live, and Twice (marked) to die." One set of markings indicates that he lives, and one set that he will die.
Also, the title Lord of the Morning. What other title is the champion of the Light going to have? Lord of the Dark? Already taken. Lord of the Light? Way too arrogant (he's not the Creator, after all). Lord of the Sunset? Too depressing. Lord of the Noon? Too corny. Lord of the Morning is classy, and elegant. What does the morning bring? Light. As for the day that he dies dawning twice, that may indicate that Shayol Ghul may erupt in the early hours of the day, making people think that sunrise has come early. As with most prophecy, I'm sure this one won't make any sense until the whole story is told. And if you want to know who will really be the key to Tarmon Gaidon, that's easy: Padan Fain. He's been through too much, and survived for all the books for him to miss the Last Battle.
15
Jalwin Moerad: 2005-09-19
I like this theory in some respects, but then I'm kind of biased towards believing Moghedien will rejoin the light. Think about it: she's the only character we've seen exhibit moral and mental development. She's changed from a coward to (if she still lives) an active force. Her skills could be most useful, especially in combating Lanfear. However, as regards this theory, I tend to doubt on the balefire thing. It seems tenuous at best, mostly because manipulating time doesn't seem to be a very important idea to the story. Plus, the concept of Rand and Lews Therin and their relationship to each other isn't well established enough to say which one would appear in Tar. Lews Therin is NOT the only Dragon personality, only the one from the last age. So, if there are others, why haven't we seen another one in Tar, or when Mat blew the Horn? There must be some special pan-Dragon, like there is for Birgitte, or Gaidal Cain. And Lews Therin isn't attached to the Horn and the Wheel like the others are; the Heros of the Horn are called to fight behind the banner of the Dragon in TGH, meaning that the Dragon isn't just another hero, but more like the permament leader, etc.
16
mako0424: 2005-09-19
I think the idea of using tel'aran'rhiod to potentially bring someone back is very interesting, considering if the Horn is sused to letsd say bring back the Dragon after death, this would also imply that he resides in T'A'R' like all the other heroes, and would be able to be ripped out similar to Birgitte, but i dont see how this would help really.
Another thing, i agree that twice dawns the day is ridiculous saying, that has little to no factual backing yet, so we could guess away without being right, but as to LTT being Lord of the Morninmg meaning he has control of the sun, no not at all.
i agree that it is prolly more metaphysical because Dawn means a new beginning and creation, but not just that but i imagine the prophecies for Rand and LTT are similar in many ways, and that morning has lots to do with the Dragon, the Aiel said that the Dragon would return from Rhuidean with the Dawn. and if twice dawns the day he dies, than this is even more explaination.
But more importantly i have no idea why anyone thinks Moggy is dead. Do many people encourage this theory, i thought the only person to die in the cleansing battle was Osan'gar/Dashiva. I took the scene with the vacuum to just show how terified Moggy was, and how actually close to death she conquered her fear. I definitly do not think she is dead.
17
Callandor: 2005-09-19
**Well, I assumed that LTT does know how to control the sun's rise and fall, based on the fact that he got that title. While a lot of titles do stretch what the person actually does, "Watcher of the Seals", it is still generally a good indication of their abilities.**
Just like how "Dragon" fits so well? ;)
Names are names. They're given by man, and usually not accurate at all -- and if they are in the vaguest sense, it's usually extrapolated out of proportion (IE: Dark One being "Lord of the Grave").
18
Darkshadow: 2005-09-20
On twice will the day dawn, couldn't that be a metaphor.... for in Winter's Heart, when Rand was using the Choeden Kal, didn't on the Sea Folk say that the statue in Tremalking was glowing brightly, LIKE THE GLOWING OF THE SUN (my opinion,not in the book), so i really don't think that any channeler could control the sun. Also, the titles could generally be all symbolic, such as morning could be associated with life (the begining of life, rebirth, etc) so we shouldn't take these out of context and look at them literally.... at least not all of time
19
JakOShadows: 2005-09-20
I agree with what Balinor says on this. The prophecy might not be anything complicated at all, and most likely will mean something simple, but it is so flowery that there is no idea what is going to happen anyways. That's one thing I don't get, why would a prophecy like that be so vague, but that's just me thinking aloud.
20
JollyW89: 2005-09-20
I have a question. Why does everyone think that there are two souls in Rand's body. Rand is Lews Therin Talemon Reborn jsut as everybody else is someone reborn. There is only one soul which is The Dragon's Soul. The wheel didn't create a new soul to be The Dragon. Some how there are 2 sets of memories. When Rand dies he will go to Tar' and will meld with Lews Therin (if that doesn't happen b4) because in Tar' the heroes take the body of the the last person they were. So The Dragon would be in Rand's body after he dies, but have all of his memories.
21
Callandor: 2005-09-20
**Why does everyone think that there are two souls in Rand's body. Rand is Lews Therin Talemon Reborn jsut as everybody else is someone reborn.**
Because they are either ignorant of common information, or just plain stubborn ;). RJ has said clearly that Rand has one soul, with two personalities.
22
Anubis: 2005-09-21
People who still think there are two souls in Rands body are wrong. RJ has stated as much.
23
Eek: 2005-09-21
1. Rand cannot be brought back if he's balefired. He'll be dead forever and the Shadow will win.
2. The title Lord of the Morning probably is for someting like; The Dawn that rises against the Shadow of the Night....
24
The Leveler: 2005-09-26
I don't know. The way I think he will die twice is some one will kill Lews Therin, and then have to go and kill Rand later. Lews Therin is a part of him, and it could fit the viewing Min had of the 2 becoming one. Just Lews Therin has to finally die first. Or someone could just do it the other way around. And at the Cleansing, when it is narrating from Moghedien, it says "She did not think she would ever be afraid again." or something to that effect.
25
Anubis: 2005-09-28
I wonder.
Twice to live and twice to die.
Rand lived as LTT. Living Once.
He died as LTT. Dies Once.
Lives as Rand. Lives twice.
Dies as Rand. Dies twice.
There we go. Twice to live and twice to die. However. Nowhere does it say he will die fighting the Dark One. The manner and timing of his death are still not revealed.
26
Dragon Tamer: 2007-12-06
I am assuming that Lews Therin is called "Lord of the Morning" because he is the champion of the light, the Creator's greatest warrior. That makes the most sense to me but one could also speculate that he could be named as lord of the morning because he appeares at the end of the previous age and ushers in the new one, as morning does.
