hy it (logically) has to be the Black
by Rand-althor: 2003-04-15 | Not yet rated
I believe that Egwene was kidnapped by Black sisters, and intent to prove it here with logic.
First of all, the only way that Eladia could have known what was going to happen, would be spies. But most sisters seem to know at least a little bit about who was with them in Salidar, and also after the recent deaths, I think Aes sedai would be a little wary what they said to who.
That only leaves soldiers who Egwene says sisters avoided anyways, so spying is pretty much out. Then there is Nicola. She could have run to the White tower, told them the plan, possably how to make gateways (remember the comment about her trying to learn it) in return for them letting her go as fast as she wants, but how would she know the plan? nobody would tell her because she is only a novice and it is none of her business. Then there is the Hall betraying her. Obviously there are 2 options here. Either Egwene was sure that the hall would, under no circumstance tell anyone, or she planned to be captured. She was surprised at being caught, so that is out, which leave complete, 100% confidence. The only possibility I see is that Delana may have told Halima, or Halima saw it in Egwenes dreams, then she ordered black sisters in the tower to capture her.
Then the question is Why? Well it is obvious that the Black sisters have pretty much lost control of Elaida, so they want something better. Now what would be better than one of the strongest female channelers alive, turned to Black using 13 of their own sisters and 13 fades? Then they have a Black sister as the Amyrlin, and if she acts strange, it may be attributed to her recent capture reminding her of her Seanchan capture. Well there you go, pick it apart as you will.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2003-04-19
Can Alviarin get control over the Sitters if she brings them Egwene? Is it possible that Alviarin has Egwene, plans to turn her, and bring her before the Hall, hoping to either take over Elaida's position somehow? That it is a possibility I would agree, but I don't think you have proved that it is a more logical answer than the other possibilities you presented.
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Callandor: 2003-04-19
Why can't it just be some random Aes Sedai that were set on the Tower wall to stop any rebels that were trying to attack?
Practically all the Aes Sedai in the Tower area for Elida or are stuck there. So they will follow orders to keep the rebels from entering the city and causing damage if they can. So they would stop them, and capture the person, and then interigate them. Why couldnt it be anymore different then that? They hope for the big fish, but expect the small one, and the catch the big fish: Egwene.
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Anubis: 2003-04-19
yeah, it does seem like the black... i wouldnt call it set in stone though. its possible that it was the aes sedai hunting the black, or just some random aes sedai, but black would leave it much more open for egwene needing seanchan help
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Weird Harold: 2003-04-19
Without disagreeing or agreeing, that the BA have Egwene in custody, a couple of counterpoints.
Rand-althor said, "... also after the recent deaths, I think Aes Sedai would be a little wary what they said to who."
It is entirely possible that the plan to block the harbor was betrayed before the deaths of the best cuendillar makers began. It is never stated *when* Egwene informed the Hall or if those killed knew why they were practicing making cuendillar.
I agree that the soldiers probably didn't betray the plan, but not because Aes Sedai would have discounted the information because of the source. I think the soldiers probably simply either did not know the plan, or avoided thinking about it because it was "Aes Sedai business."
Nicola was one of the best at making cuendillar and was one of the first choices for converting the chain. She probably knew the plan. However, I think there is one point that strongly argues against Nicola having run to the tower -- IIRC, she and Arienne took horses when they ran off. There would be no need to take horses if they ran to the Tower because they couldn't ride them over the bridges and the only other access to Tar Valon is by boat or gateway; horses would simply be an impediment to running away to the tower.
I see many more possibilities than two options. There are eighteen Sitters in each Hall and with the exception of the three Blue Sitters in the Salidar Hall any one of them might have seen some advantage to betraying the plan -- that is fifteen suspects with fifteen possible motives, including Delana betraying her to the BA. That doesn't take into account other, non-Aes Sedai suspects that might have ferreted out the plan and sold the information or passed it to someone in the Tower.
Alviarin's loss of control and Elaida's reassertion of her personal authority and control actually argues against the BA standing exclusive watch on the harbor chains. Elaida would have assigned the Aes Sedai to watch the harbor and that means that there is a roughly equal chance of the watch containing BA, BA Hunters, Elaida's supporters, Agents of the Ajah heads, or any of the other factions within the White Tower and a very slim possibility of the watch being composed of just one faction.
Tamyrlin's Response: "Can Alviarin get control over the Sitters if she brings them Egwene? Is it possible that Alviarin has Egwene, plans to turn her, and bring her before the Hall, hoping to either take over Elaida's position somehow? "
I can't see any possible permutation of events that would allow Alviarin to back any successful candidate for replacing Elaida. She's in a distinctly bad odor at the moment, and her support for anyone would be seen as a power play to regain her lost prestige and the Keeper's stole. Support for Egwene would be seen by most of the TAS as treason as well.
It would require some very convoluted coincidences for Egwene to be in the control of anyone other than Elaida.
Her capture can't be kept secret -- the chain was converted to cuendillar and that can't be hidden; there were soldiers who witnesses her capture and unless the entire watch is sequestered, the fact that the person who did it was captured will spread through the city fairly quickly.
Whatever her captors would like to do with her, the only thing they *can* do is turn her over to the TAS Hall and Elaida for judgement.
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Callandor: 2003-04-19
I thought that Egwene hadnt told the Hall yet of her plan for the chain. That was one of her secrets that only she and Siuan and Leane knew.
Plus I dont think that Nicola was informed. I thought that Bode was only going to be informed till just when she was called to do the dead by Leane. Seems silly for Egwene to tell Nicola before she actually did i jsut in case of a situation where she left occured.
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: 2003-04-19
Callandor i agree with you i belive it actually says in the text that the three of them were the only ones who knew what was going on up until that moment now here is a theory that is compleatly unlikly but if it was a setup it would have had to be one of the following suspects because these are the only ones who knew....Leane, Siaun, or Halima(via Egwenes dreams or compulsion) which if this is the case the prime suspect would be Halima....based on this though because of what is involved i go along with the belife that this was not planned or not specifically planned...i think the AS were merely guarding against attack
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Weird Harold: 2003-04-20
Callandor, Egwene did tell the Hall about the plan -- she thinks about there not being any reason to keep the plan secret fromthe Hall just before she takes Bode's place.
Whether Nicilao was told or not isn't explicitly stated, but I think that she probably did know of the plan. I suspect that knowing the plan may be the reason she ran away -- either to betray to to someone, or because she was afraid of the responsibility of carrying it out.
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Rand-althor: 2003-04-20
It wouldnt be just a random sister because one of Leane's contacts tells her that AS have all but forsaken the streets. This implies that the AS dont really care what happens in the city, as long as the tower is defended. So why would they be guarding only the harbors?
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Dorindha: 2003-04-21
While people on either side may have known about the basic plan, and it was a set up to capture someone from Egwene's side (maybe for information), I didn't think that anyone at all knew that Egwene was going to replace Bode, not even Egwene herself really, until the very last minute. This means that the people who captured Egwene weren't expecting her, so it was like they'd hit the jackpot.
As for how anyone in TV knew, if the hall knew then Delana could have informed the black, if it was them who captured Egwene, and if it was Elaida's people - she must have some spies in the other camp (or maybe Nicola, but I doubt she knew of the plan).
What I'm getting at, is that it was not a plan to capture Egwene herself, it was a plan to catch whoever was there.
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Graendalboytoy: 2003-04-22
Whoever captured Egwene had to either be BA, or not have taken the oaths at all. They used the one power against the boat,which Egwene already said in her PoV was not possible because it would be the same as attacking with it.
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Dorindha: 2003-04-23
Surely a "normal" AS could use the power against someone from Egwene's side, if they are attacking TV - they are allowed to use the power for defence (I'm not saying I think this is what happened, just keeping my options open)
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Callandor: 2003-04-23
Its not enitrely accurate. If the Aes Sedai was convinced enough that the boat Egwene was in was a boat that was going to mean harm to them, then they could possible attack Egwenes boat but not kill anyone.
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Mairan Sedai: 2003-04-23
I vote for the random Aes Sedai theory. I don't think Nicola knew of the plan. She *could* make cuendillar, but she wasn't very good at it (she said something like "I know I could get better if you would give me more time to practice," a typical Nicola comment). She could only get a goblet halfway turned in an hour. Bode and Leane were the first choices, not her, and even if she was good, I can't see Egwene confiding in her.
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Anubis: 2003-04-23
no no no. using the one power on a rowboat next to shore is alot different then using the one power on a ship miles out. with the rowboat, it is highly unlikely that anyone will die, and with the ship it is certain that there will be death.
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Myrrdraal: 2003-04-25
lets start with an open mind - Elaida's AS do not walk the street of TV anymore, the row boat was attacked, and at such close range, it seems very difficult to destroy a tiny row boat in full confidence you will not kill someone (remember AS, for all their dexterity in the one power, have little experience in using it offensively). And we know that the persons attacking Egwene's boat were expecting to capture someone. This means they knew how to use the one power offensively, and were confident enough to use it one another sister - remember that they were expecting A sister, just not this one, so the argument that a 'good' sister of Elaida's managed to self justify the offensice use of the one power is tenuous at best. Now, the only sisters brave enough to use the one power against another in an offensive manner (setting the oath rod aside for the moment) is a BA, only the fear of the DO himself would lead a sister to do such a thing.Thus it seems that the only people capable of actually carrying out the attack and kidnapping are the BA. But why? Perhaps they will give Egwene their blessing, or perhaps this will cause the encircling AS to attack TV and the WT. but is this what the BA really want, or will they throw her back to prevent this.
It could perhaps have been Elaida's BA hunters, trying to stop the flow of BA between the two halves of the tower, or perhaps one of these is a BA, but then again, there's that offensive use of the one power.
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forge: 2003-04-25
it must have been the black as they were lying in wait for someone- "we certainly got better than we bargained for tonight". this means that they had bargained for something.
the fact they knew there would be something shows that they have connections to the dark, as the only spy in egwenes camp who would know is halima. also egwene herself said that using the op on a boat in the river would constitute using it as a weapon.
as to why, that seems simple to me. Egwenes faction has the power to heal the tower, which is definently not in the DO's interest.
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Aragorn: 2003-10-06
just a newbie with an opinion. I think it is obvious the black(or the forsaken) had a hand in this. Halima has been killing others who could turn the chain. The use of saidin shows this. It seems like Sheirem has had a hand in Nicola running away, due to her sympathies toward Nicola's cousins. Sheirem is under someone's thumb, Halima?, and was protecting Nicola because she knew somthing was up. Why not kill Bode? Maybe Halima knew or "planted" the suggestion that EG should do this not a novice. One of my problems with all this is, if EG was betrayed by someone(Halima) why did the sisters who captured her not expect her?
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Aviendha: 2003-10-15
Well, let's just say that Egwene was captured by the BA and they turn her over. That's not really a big problem, all Egwene has to do is make Rand do to her what he did to Asmodean. If I remember correctly Rand cut Asmodeans conection to the DO. Don't have any quotes, but as far as I remember that's what happend.
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Rand-althor: 2003-10-15
But if Egwene is turned to the black, then she wont want him to. And he trusts her, so she would be able to attack him, almost before he knew it. Also, they can use her the same way the Salidar wanted to, she knows Rand, which could be a barganing chip, to get him into the tower if Egwene becomes Amyrlin, then they can try to gentle him, because he is surrounded by Aes Sedai. Not that I think Rand is foolish enough to do that without Ashamen o plenty around him, but its possable, after all, he is pretty arrogant.
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Dorindha: 2003-10-16
Aviendha - even if it would be the same for a woman as it was for a man, the connection you are talking about was probably what stopped Asmodean feeling the effects of the taint. We have not seen anything similar on any women, and so it's unlikely to appear in this case.
Besides which, Asmodean still thought as he always had done (though he knew he was caught between Rand's and the DO's wrath) so if being turned by a circle of 13 is truly effective, Egwene would be thinking as a DF/BA.
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mako0424: 2004-07-25
I think it is quite right that someone can be turned wholy and effectively, but i am also sure that turning them back is quite possible, whether it takes 13 more chanelers, and 13 ogier or something, but im sure nynaeve, rand, or some uber-channeler would figure out how to turn them back, but ui think Egwene will prevent this turning at the last minute somehow
