ow it really goes down
by Crazy Ashaman: 2003-08-06 | Not yet rated
Lets run down what we know:
- Suroth has the male a'dam, along with Liandran, a black ajah.
- Rand is going to see (barring some more crazy chronology) a false DotNM.
- Rand is with Nyn, who knows that Suroth is a darkfriend.
Now the assumptions:
- Rand will, like everything else, jump into this thing with complete ignorance, stupidity, and a feeling of superiority. However, he will bring along Logain, Bashere, and probably no AM or AS (come on, that would be smart – something rand does not have a great track record of). He is probably foolish enough to go to Ebou Dar itself instead of meeting halfway.
- Tuon, the real DotNM, is going to Marry Mat, and is not a woman to run away from her duty. Thus, we can assume that once they come to grips with everything, they will head back to Ebou Dar (perhaps not the whole party). However, in a normal WOT fashion, they will meet up with the DW guards that were sent after Tuon, and there will another mess of
- Tuon's truth-speaker is indeed Semirhage (now this is at least a safe assumption considering that Bel'al in Tear, Sam in Illian, Rahvin in Camylan, Mesaana in WT, it stands to reason that one of them would be messing around with the Seanchan). However, I do not think she will be at the meeting (last I remember, she was in hiding) after Tuon disappeared. I will even say that she lifted the shield that was left on Liandran by Moghedien.
- This is where it gets kinda iffy: I believe that neither Liandran nor Suroth know anything about the male a'dam. The quote from TSR is: ”Moghedien must be the only one who knows [about the male a'dam}. It makes no sense otherwise.” TSR 868 PB. As well as “Did you come to take it away? Perhaps to destroy it? You cannot destroy it. That is not metal, but a form of cuendillar. Even balefire cannot destroy cuendillar. And if you mean to use it, it does have ... drawbacks, shall we say? Put the collar on a man who can channel and a woman wearing the bracelets can make him do whatever she wishes, true, but it will not stop him from going mad, and there is flow in the other way too. Eventually he will begin to be able to control you, too, so you end with a struggle at every hour. Not very palatable when he is going mad. Of course, you can pass the bracelets around, so no one has too much exposure, but that does mean trusting someone else with him. Men are always so good at violence, they make wonderful weapons. Or two women can each wear one bracelet, if you have someone you trust enough; that slows the seepage considerably, I understand, but it also lessens your control, even if you work in perfect unison. Eventually, you will find yourselves in a struggle for control with him, each of you needing him to remove your bracelet as msurely as he needs you to remove the collar. ... Controlling Lews Therin – Rand al Thor as he is called now – would be most useful, but is it worth the price? You can see why I have left the collar and bracelets where they are” - TSR 908 PB.
So I am going to say that Moghedien never told the BA exactly how it works. The darks are never the trusting type you know.
So here is the theory: Rand meets Suroth in Ebou dar, so now what? Eventually, suroth will get Liandran to put the necklace on Rand (probably in the same way Nyn got one on Moghedien. Liandran will most likely be the only one wearing the bracelets (once again, the trust thing is lacking for the servants of the Dark). However, being Iron Will Rand, tough as nails, love pain, etc, he will take control of her. (Of course, this will most likely be accompanied by other fighting within the embassies, descriptions of the inner struggle between Iron Will Rand and Liandran, etc so it can get drawn out over a couple of chapters. In the end, Rand will wind up on top, and Mat will walk in with the real DotNM.
The questions I have are: How long does this take? And does Semirhage come into play here? Will Nynaeve be with him to point out Liandran as a darkfriend? In following with the foreshadowing from TGH where it is said “Rand would kill someone who did that to him” (thanks whoever for the quote from another post). This will be an excellent time for Semirhage to make her appearance and to break Rand's block on killing women if these female forsaken are going to ever die.
However, RJ books being what they are, it must be a bit more complex than this, so ... have at it.
**** AND I DO NOT THINK THE “SEVERED HAND” WILL COME INTO PLAY HERE!!!! *****
-The Crazy Ash'aman.
Sorry about the length, first post!
“The Aes Sedai: Ageless faces, no expression – The inventors of Botox.”
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1
Tamyrlin: 2003-08-11
I agree...which bother me. I hate the fact that Jordan makes Rand and many of the others so cocky and stupid...even after what they have been through. First of all, Rand should take care of Taim, his biggest threat, but he puts him off again, even after Logain tells Rand what's up. Second, he will probably do the dumb thing, and go in unprepared, getting caught once again. An interesting point: won't Elayne, Aviendha, Min, and Alanna know once he is caught...and probably come running to save him? If Semirhage is smart, if they capture him, she will take him back to Moridin immediately...but that would make too much sense. I think Semirhage knows, probably as much as Moggy, about the collar, and I am guessing that the Seanchan know enough (they might be ignorant of the affects of the taint...but now that it is gone...). In the end, it would be ironic if Taim or Logain were caught in the collar...but if Rand is never captured, it will be a wasted plot that has developed over six or seven books.
2
Vaughn882: 2003-08-11
I agree with some of your points, Rand will get captured being stupid and mat will come too, maybe having to help. But i think Perrin will also fit into this. Min said that women who can channel will hurt Rand twice if Perrin is not there. THe first time was Dumai's wells. Perrin is in the general area and is meeting with Seanchan. Perhaps he will have another ta'veren viion of Rand getting captured, and he and mat will be drawn to help him. I don't know though, it seems like theres too much the characters need to do in the next 2 books.
3
Callandor: 2003-08-11
He will bring no AS or AM... but is smart enough to bring Logain and Nynaeve? Conflicting views there. Rand isn't a total moron, he KNOWS the Seanchan will have damane, and that damane can channel, and if there are too many he has a possiblity of getting captured. If anything the AS capturing only forced this more onto Rand and, you would think, drove it home. He has had his Aes Sedai that have sworn to him, and trusted Asha'man go with him first to SL, and then to Tear. Again, this is really pointless if you think Rand is a total moron.
Mat and Tuon wont head back right away, Mat is kinda running from a death sentence. I've always like the idea that even if, and due to all the foreshadowings probably will, Rand gets captured, that by that time Mat will have met up with Perrin (help him with the Aiel? possibly), and then they can both feel the pull of need by Rand's ta'verenness and they can use Grady and Neald to Travel to wherever they need to go to find out that Rand went to talk to the Seanchan in Ebou Dar (or wherever it takes place), and then Travel there.
**Eventually, suroth will get Liandran to put the necklace on Rand (probably in the same way Nyn got one on Moghedien. Liandran will most likely be the only one wearing the bracelets (once again, the trust thing is lacking for the servants of the Dark).**
So, you think they will drug Rand and then slip it on him? Could see that, but they would have to get Rand to drink something, and again Rand isn't a total moron. He didn't even drink anything when he talked to the Sea Folk. So that would have to be after everything falls to crap, and Rand is already shielded or captured and then they could just slip it on then.
**I will even say that she lifted the shield that was left on Liandran by Moghedien.**
I do like that part ;).
**- This is where it gets kinda iffy: I believe that neither Liandran nor Suroth know anything about the male a'dam.**
Don't know about that. Tuon seems to know at least, and if she was told why wouldn't Semi tell Liandrin in Tuon's absense?
**“Rand would kill someone who did that to him” (thanks whoever for the quote from another post).**
That was me btw :).
4
Kris Murdrum: 2003-08-11
You know CAM, that is very good speculations... it even opens up the possibility where Rand bows to the Crystal Throne/Rand sits on the Crystal Throne... that would fitt right well within his capture by the male adam... As for if the women realize that he is being collard... well I don't know, could be, could be not.
One mentioned that he thought that Perrin had something to do with it... refering to Min's viewing of Rand being hurt by women that can channel if Perrin isn't there for him.
Well... do you guys remember that one time, unfortunatly I can't remeber the where or who, when some Seanchan mentions (or possibly thinks) about a tradition at the royal court, where a damane's leach is fastened to a man? And that in some cases the both died screaming their lungs out? Well do yuo also remeber what happened when Rand touched the collar of the duo that he and Avi met on their way back from their randevouz? And when Halima released Moggy form the collar? Well I'm pretty sure that that is the second time a female channeler will hurt Rand and Perrin needs to resque him (i.e. the only plausible explanation for the severed hand viewing/dream)
5
Rhodric: 2003-08-11
if Rand doesn't take Nyn i will box his ears. >:(
from Tam:
**An interesting point: won't Elayne, Aviendha, Min, and Alanna know once he is caught...and probably come running to save him?**
i doubt they'll know that he is caught, especially if Rand doesn't take Min. (assuming this meeting is a long way from Tear, where Rand's camp is). The warder bond just gives vague directions, when the distance is too far. so the trio won't know he is captured, just moved west.
however if Rand is angry enough, maybe. but he has to be even angrier and in more pain than usual. which is a lot.
6
Fade: 2003-08-12
First of all, i agree with Vaughn about mat and perrin meeting up and going to help Rand. (see my theory on the subject) second, in response to the impression that this is all too much to happen in one book, i would invite you to look back at what happened in the first few books. i mean that is an ass load of events to have happened in only a book or two. i think that a reversion to that model of books is inevitable. (and about damn time by my thinking)
now onto Rand. as we have seen, he is one for show, so he will most likely go to this meeting with quite the entourage. at the end of COT, rand has quite an impressive list of prospective people for his entourage: Merise, Elza, Sarene, Corele, Nesune, Beldeine, Daigian, Kumira, Shalon, Verin, Cadsuane, alivia, Toveine, Gabrelle and 6 other AS. he also has Logain, Jahar, Damer, Eben and 6 more AM loyal to Logain. and to finish off the list he has Loial, Bashere and 100 of Basheres horsemen. i would suspect that rand would take a dozen or so for his entourage. he will not take the horsemen, because this would seem too much like an invasion. so the list of names i have for his posse are: Logain, Bashere, Loial, Jahar, Damer, Eben, Cadsuane, Verin, Alivia, Elza, Toveine and Gabrelle.i wouldn't be surprized to see a few more Asha'man go as well. would rand risk taking Alivia back to the seanchan though?
7
rubbernilly: 2003-08-12
I think the Seanchan know about the dangers of male channelers, if perhaps not exactly why (many of them do not believe in the fairy tales of shadowspawn that we know are true). They do mention, however, that men who are found to be able to channel are put to death - I think.
Therefore, most of them would realize what the collar on Rand would mean. I don't think that Semhirage would chance that.
I see her with a fake DotNM. People who are normally around the DotNM know that this person is fake, and they are OK with that. They are fine either because there are normal/trained stand-in girls who normally do this sort of thing if there might be some danger, or because these stand ins are used whenever Tuon gets it in her head to go missing for a month at a time. ANYWAY, Sem - with a false DotNM - absconds with Rand once he is collared; perhaps she says that he was an imposter and she had him killed, or sent away. That would certainly serve to keep the tensions up between the Seanchan and Rand's nations, as the S. would feel slighted that a fake Dragon had been sent to them, and Rand's people would know that he had disappeared shortly after going to visit the S.
With Rand in tow, I agree that the thing to do is immediately whisk him away. Perhaps Moridin is the best thing, but if I were Semhirage I would take Rand right to Shayol Ghul that very night. Get 13 channelers and 13 fades to turn him, and now you don't have to worry about the idea that the male being controlled by the Sad Bracelets will eventually take control of the women who wear the bracelets. Just let him go and he gets his orders from the DO, too.
8
Crazy Ashaman: 2003-08-13
Thanks for the criticism. There were lots of interesting points that I never thought of.
Tam:
Semirhage probably does know enough. If Moggy knows, why not? I had never thought about the effects of the collar. Rhodric I think is right, that they will probably be too far away. Min MIGHT be along with him, but she will not be able to do much, and Elayne and Avi are too far away.
Kris Murdrum:
WOW! Never even remembered the traditions of the Crystal Throne. I will have to think on this.
Fade:
“i think that a reversion to that model of books is inevitable. (and about damn time by my thinking)”
THANK YOU!! I sure hope so. Or at least, that some of the main characters starting hanging out more so we do not need to read more POVs that take place over a shorter time span per book (I will stop before this gets into one of those CoT debates).
Another interesting point about Rand being one for show.
Callandor:
I said he MIGHT bring Nyn. It is hard to decide one way or another which he will do. I would think that he would bring Logain, since he was there at the original meeting. Do not forget thought that he sent Logain, probably the most important AM to him if he is to keep the BT under control, along with only Bashere and Loial. “I am sending the three of you to arrange a truce with the Seanchan” COT 559 HB. If only there was a way to confirm that they took no guard with them. As for being a complete moron ... the jury is still out as far as I am concerned. It seems like he was originally planning on going to SL to cleanse the taint with only Alivia, Nyn, Min and Lan so...???
When I referred to Nyn putting the a'dam on Moggy, I was referring to the way she did it in TAR (sorry about the confusion). In FOH, Nyn pleaded for mercy and crawled on hands and knees to get close to Moggy and then made the a'dam appear. I was suggesting something similar where the one with the bracelet kneeled to Rand first.
Thanks for the quote!
Rubbernilly:
I never thought about a fake DotM being a normal thing for the Seanchan. Your ideas do make sense for that. Could Semi be the one used as an imposter??? Also, great thinking about posing Rand as a fake DR to the Seanchan to anger them further! I don't know if it would work. Of course, as for the rushing him off to SG and converting him .... Like Tam says “but that would make too much sense”.
I also would like to see Mat AND Perrin be there. Almost as much as I am dying to see the Resuce of Faile plotline done with. I however do not think Mat and Perrin will meet up first. The ta'veren pull is a good explanation, in which case, he would not come to quite a bit after the fact. In this case, it gives him plenty of time to catch the beating he would deserve for getting himself into it, and fulfill the Min vision. To be clear, I do also think this is a great time for “being hurt by channelers” vision to be fulfilled, but I cannot predict how it would happen (which is what makes the reading exciting!).
Thanks for the comments.
9
Jiana: 2003-08-13
Fade: Let's not forget the twenty or so Far Dareis Mai that will insist on going anywhere Rand goes. Also: Reversion to the action packed story lines of the first few books as opposed to the interesting (yet sometimes lagging) storylines of today? Total agreement here. I have to admit though, being hooked on the series as I am, if RJ put out a book that consisted of only one chapter, I would go for it. :)
10
Callandor: 2003-08-13
**When I referred to Nyn putting the a'dam on Moggy, I was referring to the way she did it in TAR (sorry about the confusion). In FOH, Nyn pleaded for mercy and crawled on hands and knees to get close to Moggy and then made the a'dam appear. I was suggesting something similar where the one with the bracelet kneeled to Rand first.**
Common misconception. Rand wouldn't wear the bracelet, he would wear the necklace/collar and the woman or women controlling him would wear the bracelets.
And again, RAND IS NOT A TOTAL MORON! He would go alone to the Seanchan, who he says are almost as big a threat as the Shadow... why? Talk to any person and list 2 things they hate the most or fear the most and say they have to face one of them today, do you think if they were given a choice of taking someone with them that they wouldn't do just that? (Btw, I'm not saying Rand really fears the Seanchan but who knows)
Rand will bring at least Nynaeve, Lan, Logain at a BARE minimum. To me he brings those 3, Flinn and Corele, Narishma and Merise, Manfor, and the other Aes Sedai that have sworn to Rand. So that is a big party.
11
Fade: 2003-08-14
Whoever rand takes with him for an entourage, Loialmust be a member. the seanchan admire ogiers. just look at all the references towards them, be it the members of the Death Watch Guard, or non-military ogiers. for some reason, i think that loial has a very important role to play with the Seanchan.
12
rubbernilly: 2003-08-15
I don't think that Semi would pose as the DotNM. I think they would have da'covale specifically trained for the purpose.
And, just like those around Tuon act one way to her when she is "under the veil" and another way when she is openly being the DotNM, I think that those around the fake-DotNM would have proscribed actions that they have to take... actions that reinforce that this is *truly* the DotNM, even though they know differently. They probabyl wouldn't even think this oddity of behavior all that... well, odd.
In any case, Semi would either have a DF in the DotNM position, or she would have control of the da'covale stand-ins that could take that spot, so that she could manipulate what was said and done.
13
Anubis: 2003-08-16
hmm, i think we are seeing a much slower version of what happend in book 3 (yeah and book 2, and kinda book one.. be quiet you). The seanchan are somehow bringing all out heroes and important people together. Rand will be there, Mat will be there, if he isnt already then soon, Perrin is in the area... and is contacting seanchan. And being ruler of... whatever that country is.. and friend of the lord dragon, that would prolly warrant a visit to tuon. Not to mention that egwene is about to be attacked by the seanchan. Am i missing anyone? Oh yeah, elayne... forget elayne. thom min.. noal... oliver.. nynaeve... there all gonna be there too. It will be a big reuinon ^_^
14
CJH68: 2003-08-26
Cadsuance has slowly worked her way into Rand'd confidence but really hasn't done that much as his 'advisor'. I think she is a certainty to go to Ebou Dar with Rand's party and will really start to earn her keep. Surely she has more common sense than the rest of those woolheaded fools!
15
joebball1212: 2005-06-28
**I agree...which bother me. I hate the fact that Jordan makes Rand and many of the others so cocky and stupid...even after what they have been through. First of all, Rand should take care of Taim, his biggest threat, but he puts him off again, even after Logain tells Rand what's up.**
Taim may be Rand's biggest threat, but Rand cannot handle that yet. He has himself Logain and his 30 or so AM, Flinn, Narishma, and a few Aes Sedai sworn to him. Even With Callandor the whole BT united behind Taim would be way to much for them. Perhaps if they used the Choeden Kal, but that would just destroy everything around them, not to mention bring the Forsaken down on top of them again. So therefore it was SMART for him to tackle the seanchan before taking care of Taim.
**Second, he will probably do the dumb thing, and go in unprepared, getting caught once again.**
I know many other people have stated this, but Rand is not a complete idiot, and even if he was do you really think Cadsuane or Nynaeve, would let him go without them? Or do you think Min would let him leave them behind? She'd keep giving him the constant reminder of a veiwing she saw that said he needed Cadsuane (not the one about her teaching them things) so even if he wanted to go unprepared, he wouldn't be able to.
16
El Bogarto: 2005-06-29
“but Rand is not a complete idiot”
Um, joebball1212, i disagree.
He was going to try cleansing the taint by himself. If Cads and Co. hadn't tagged along he would be so dead.
Rand is a total moron.
17
Ozymandias: 2005-06-29
Just out of curiosity I want to ask this. I have heard from many sources that the series will last 13 books (though those sources are far from reliable). Regardless, even the money-leech part of RJ jas to realize he has to wind this thing up within a few more books, like 2 or 3. So the question is this. Can we afford to have Rand be collared for any extended period of time? I think that we can accept as fact that all hell would break loose: Taim would openly rebel, nobles would start breaking off, that sort of thing. And this would mean at least a book worth of material to tie things up. So the question is this: does RJ collar Rand for like a 2 day period, so that he can break free in time to reassert order, or not at all? I don't think its humanly possible for Rand to bow or sit on the Crystal Throne, as I saw suggested by a few. I always thought that was thrown in to highlight Seanchan arrogance and propogate the myth of the Empress's almost omnipotent power. In any case, does anyone agree? Or am I being to fair to RJ by saying that he wants some closure on the series rather than a significantly larger bank account?
18
Callandor: 2005-06-30
**Just out of curiosity I want to ask this. I have heard from many sources that the series will last 13 books (though those sources are far from reliable).**
No. RJ and his publishers have confirmed many, many, times that the series will end in 12 books. He's been saying 12 since Winter's Heart came out, and hasn't changed yet.
**So the question is this. Can we afford to have Rand be collared for any extended period of time?**
Can we? We don't factor in at all here ;) RJ will write whether Rand gets collared or not, for however long it takes.
**I don't think its humanly possible for Rand to bow or sit on the Crystal Throne, as I saw suggested by a few. I always thought that was thrown in to highlight Seanchan arrogance and propogate the myth of the Empress's almost omnipotent power. In any case, does anyone agree?**
Unless by some far flung reason, Tuon actually brought the physical Crystal Throne to Randland, it won't be kneeled to or sat on by anyone of the main characters (Rand definately included) -- RJ has said that no main character will go to Seanchan or Shara other than what is already in the books (IE: Rand's special night with Aviendha in The Fires of Heaven).
The Prophecy the Seanchan have itself, is more than likely actually altered by Ishamael when he sent Hawkwing's kin out in search of Seanchan to begin with. This is his "doom to come" -- this is also how the Prophecies in Seanchan before Hawkwing's decendants arrived, matched up with Randland's current ones (IE: they were unaltered), yet the ones that Hawkwing's kin had are viewed as "uncorrupted", when in fact they are changed.
**Or am I being to fair to RJ by saying that he wants some closure on the series rather than a significantly larger bank account?**
Yes, he wants closure. He's been in this series for nearly 20 years -- he wants to move on.
And, just to point out, RJ isn't getting nearly as rich as his publishers are. And from what he's already made (from what I can gather it puts him in the ability to live nicely for a good while, not fabuously rich), why would he want more money, instead of the feeling of closure and completeness with a finished masterpiece like this will be?
19
Ruthie: 2005-07-01
Going back to what Fade said about Alivia. I think that she will definitely accompany them to negiotate with the Seanchan since it would fit so nicely with Rand's plan to teach the Suldam that they can channel. Showing the Seanchan an ex-damane who is responsible would be a blow to their culture which would fit with the undermining that he is trying to do with the suldam in Caemlyn with Elayne. I could see Alivia really earning his trust here as part of whatever rescue is put together and choosing Rand over her old rulers(I hope its a big reunion!! The boys need to be together!) What do you think?
20
SDog: 2005-07-01
Unless by some far flung reason, Tuon actually brought the physical Crystal Throne to Randland, it won't be kneeled to or sat on by anyone of the main characters (Rand definately included) -- RJ has said that no main character will go to Seanchan or Shara other than what is already in the books (IE: Rand's special night with Aviendha in The Fires of Heaven).
I've always thought the "kneeling to the Crystal Throne" bit was metaphorical, with the throne representing the Seanchan leadership. All Rand has to do is kneel to Tuon.
But then, that "prophecy" is most likely fake. Still, if Tuon thinks it's real, she's planning for it to happen.
21
SDog: 2005-07-01
Regarding Rand's stupidity...no matter how dumb you think Rand is (I happen to believe he's probably a genius...if a little cocky), it's important to remember that he has Cadsuane and Bashere with him. Cadsuane is about as big a cynic as anyone, and Bashere certainly knows how to think strategically.
I highly doubt Rand is going to ignore their advice, which will probably be sound (especially after his pact with Cadsuane). He demonstrated in CoT that he uses what Bashere has taught him, as well.
Plus, he probably has a few Gray Ajah in his crew...so he has a good handle on truces and mediations.
Never underestimate the power of your supporters.
22
Callandor: 2005-07-02
**I've always thought the "kneeling to the Crystal Throne" bit was metaphorical, with the throne representing the Seanchan leadership. All Rand has to do is kneel to Tuon.**
That's a nice thought, but the Seanchan have repeatedly been shown to take this one very literal ;) Tuon so far hasn't demonstrated if she is an exception.
And, yes, it is fake :) More to the point.
23
Aendur: 2005-07-02
Not much to say but: We have pretty strong evidence that is NOT Standard Operating Procedure to have a step-in DotNM. If the leader of the Deathwatch Guard who escort her is confused by this phony DotNM buying things out in Ebou Dar (who we have reason to believe is connected to Suroth/Semi) then it is unlikely there is ever a stand-in. Otherwise, Suroth or Semi or whoever would use her, instead of this unknown. (very sorry about the lack of specificity/minor innacuracies; 'tis the problem with not having access to the books)
24
JakOShadows: 2005-07-03
I agree with you Sdog. There are just too many people to advice and go with him as an aid to keep him out of any situations. Not to mention RJ is setting up a meeting between the boys again, so it makes it even less unlikely in my mind that he will get captured and made to wear the collar.
