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hat's up with the Darkhounds?
by dragonsceptor: 2004-01-18 | Not yet rated
Previous Categories: Faile and Perrin's Rescue
"As the trail began to curve to the west, he felt a growing suspicion that firmed into certainty as it continued to bend. The Darkhounds had circled the camp completely, running right across the place north of the camp where several huge trees lay half toppled and propped by their neighbors, each with a tall chunk sliced cleanly out of its splintered trunk. The tracks covered a stone outcrop as smooth and flat as a polished marble floor except for one hair-thin gouge cut through it straight as a plumb line. Nothing resisted the opening of an Asha'man's gateway, and two had opened here. A thick pine that had fallen blocking one had a section four paces wide burned out of it, but the charred ends were as neat as if they had come from a sawmill. It seemed that evidence of the One Power did not interest Darkhounds, however. The pack had not paused there any more than anywhere else, or even slowed that he could tell. Darkhounds could run faster than horses, and for longer, and the stench of them hardly seemed to have faded more in one place than another. At two points in that circuit he had picked up a forking in the trail, but that was only the pack coming from the north and departing south. Once around the camp, and then on their way after whatever or whoever they were hunting."
I have not seen any theories on what/where the darkhounds were after/going. This has to have significance. The AS indicated that it was a huge pack (around 50 if I remember) and they were heading south. Now Deadsy (in his theory regarding the Shaido's location) reasons that Perrin is in Northern Altera. Who could the Darkhouds be after? Rand is in Far Madding during this time and that is East. Nynaeve, Verin, Cads and many others on the DO's list are with him. Egwene is in Tar Valon and Elayne and Avi are in Andor. These are both to the North.
The only people to the south are Mat and his party (unless Semirage has called them to her in Ebou Dar for some unknown reason). There is a lot of possiblities there. We have Mat, Tuon, and Thom.
I think they are after Thom. My theory relies on the Thom will be instrumental in rescuing Moiraine theory being true. If the DO can kill Thom before he rescues Moiraine, Moiraine will not come back and Rand cannot be succesful. Any other ideas on who the darkhound are after?
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2004-01-24
In the back of my mind, I always considered that they were after Fain, who has been causing trouble. But, they could be going towards Mat, but why not kill Perrin too, if the DO is just trying to pick off three ta'veren. Of the three, Perrin has the least power to defend himself, since the DO is aware of Mat's luck. I have no proof that Fain is in the south, so it is really just a guess. Concerning Thom, I find it hard to imagine that they can be sent after anyone. They have to have some sent to seek, like a ta'veren or fain. I can't imagine the DO cares much about Moiraine, or is even aware that she still lives and that Thom may be instrumental in her rescue.
Callandor: 2004-01-24
And how would the Dark know that little detail about Thom?
Perrin wasn't attacked most likely because the person who ordered the Darkhounds, didn't know he would be there (he had been moving around a bit), and was only in passing.
WinespringBrother: 2004-01-24
According to Masuri, the Darkhounds hzve been hunting for some time, and seem frustrated. We know from Lan that darkhounds don't give up a trail until they or their quarry are dead. Now there are two possibilities. One is that they have been following a trail for a very long time, but haven't caught their prey yet. So it has to be someone who crossed Altara and headed south (probably towards Ebou Dar). The other possibility is that they have been running around at random trying to pick up a trail, and whether they caught a scent or not is unknown. In WH, Moridin mentions two primary targets for the Shadow, Rand and Fain. Rand has never been to Ebou Dar, but Fain possibly has (there was an evil fog there eating people in COS, IIRC). Any other possibilities for targets?
heronblade: 2004-01-24
Have we seen the darkhounds directly attack perrin before? As i recall, they attacked rand and mat when perrin was around buts what to say that darkhounds simply don't like wolf friends and are trying to avoid him. they took a serious detour to skip round the camp when they could have run right through it with little difficulty. even if perrin wasn't their target, why didn't they attack. it said in COT that they'd attack anyone they came across if it didn't detract from the hunt.
broon7: 2004-01-25
At first guess, I thought maybe they were after Masema..but after a moment's thought, i deregarded that notion. If they were after him, i think, they would have attacked the camp even if it meant all fifty of them dying. I don't think they are hunting Fain either. The last we heard of him was in Far Madding, in WH. And part of Crossroads overlaps WH timewise (i.e. The beacon of the Power in the sky). Fain couldn't have gotten to Ghealdon that fast ( i think that's where Perrin is?). So at the moment, i am somewhat clueless as to whom they may be hunting until I research this a little more. What do you all think?
Elder Haman: 2004-01-25
I always thought it was obvious that the darkhounds where aimed at Mat- probably because he's the Hornblower Though I did consider the possibility that the were after Rand and that his constant traveling was confusing them into running all over the continent. (Pretty picture isn't it?)
dragonsceptor: 2004-01-26
So, after thinking about this, I'm not sure who they are after. It says that they have been on the trail for a while and that they felt frustrated. Now, Mat and company have been in Ebou Dar for a while. Why would the darkhounds be frustrated if their quarry hadn't moved? Is there anyone else of significance to the light in the south of Altara that is not with Mat and Company?
Davian93: 2004-01-26
I have to agree that they were after Mat. The DO and various forsaken have been trying to kill mat for a while now. First Melindra, then the Aiel outside his tent, then the Gholam, and now darkhounds. Also, as is mentioned, Mat is really the only one to the south right now. Mat's also probably gonna be pretty significant in "binding the nine months" to Rand pretty soon which would fulfill another one of the prophecies. The DO/forsaken probably wouldnt any, no matter how limited, of an alliance between Rand and the Seanchan.
Frenzy: 2004-01-26
Mat seems the obvious choice, using circumstantial evidence. Not counting the Grayman in Tar Valon, the three major Shadow-inspired threats against him are linked to Sammael: Melindhra (the nine bees dagger), the Gholam (found in the stasis box) and Darkhounds (used againt Moiraine in Illian). Another bit of circumstantial evidence is that they found Perrin. The pack could've been trailing after a ta'veren, and got frustrated when they learned it was the wrong one. Darkhounds are animals under orders, i doubt they'd take the initiative to hunt the wrong prey.
i'm not entirely convinced, but Mat looks like he's the one with a big red target painted on his backside right now...
Davian93: 2004-01-26
Matt's almost too obvious of a choice. It could be a red herring. I'm probably thinking too far into this thing.
dragonsceptor: 2004-01-26
Good point Frenzy. I hadn't made the connection between the dagger, the Gholam, and the darkhounds all being from Sammael. It also fits with the darkhounds being on the hunt for a while. Sammael has been toast for a while. You've convinced me.
IkilledAsmodean: 2004-01-27
Well, to figure out this, we must break down every aspect. So, there a re a few important questions that need asking.
1- Why would going thorugh the camp, with as little trouble as it would take them, hinder the search for the hounds? It's the only reason they wouldn't attack people.
2- How much experience do the hounds have in tracking someone who can Travel (seems to be an explanation of their seeming to be frustrated)?
3- What is the real significance of the number of the pack?
Davian93: 2004-01-27
Let's make it unanimous. Frenzy, I think you've nailed it. The Sammuel connection along with the length of their search almost certainly coincides. The Darkhounds will almost continue to hunt for him until another Forsaken or the DO order them to do something else.
: 2004-01-28
In Response to IKilledAsmoden:
COT Scent of a Dream: Perrin thinks,"Perhaps the pack had circled because they sensed him, sensed someone who was ta'veren, yet he doubted that Darkhounds would have hesitated one instant at coming into the camp, had they been after him."
COT Blacksmith's Puzzle: Masuri says, "There is always a feel of urgency about darhounds' trails, buty it varies according to a number of factors, not all of which I can be certain of. This one has an intense admixture of...I suppose you could call it impatience. That isn't really strong enough...I would say their hunt has been going on for sometime, and their prey is eluding them somehow... Despite the stories, they never hunt at random, though they will kill if the oportunity presents itself and doesn't interfere with the hunt. With Darkhounds, the hunt is paramount...They have been known to bypass the the great and mighty to slay a farmwife or a craftsman, though at times we cannot see why, or to enter a town or village and leave without killing, though they clearly came for a reason."
1- Perrin's camp is quite large. The darkhounds have been on the hunt for a long time and are impatient. Even as large of a pack as they were, it would take some time to attack Perrin's camp. If their quarry has been eluding them (through travelling) they might not want to risk losing their quarry again by taking the time to attack the camp. "The hunt is paramount."
2- I would doubt they have much experience hunting those who can travel. Until Rand and Egwene, the only people who knew how to travel were the forsaken. I'm not sure how long travelling has been lost but I am sure is has been a long time.
3- Your guess is as good as mine. Sammael knew Mat was in Ebou Dar from his visit to Carridin. Mat had already eluded him twice. Perhaps he sent all the darkhounds he had at his disposal. I'd like to hear any other ideas people have.
a dragonburned fool: 2004-01-29
against the Sammael connection:
Sammael's pack was totally destroyed (by Moiraine). IIRC Moiraine didn't believe Sammael would have two packs. Around that time other Forsaken also used darkhounds: a pack against Rand in tDR (probably Ishamael's) - killed (but as if not entirelly); Rahvin's pack against Rand, Mat and Asmodean (part of them survived). Masuri said, the pack from CoT is another pack, not one of the already known (and used by Sammael, Rahvin, Ishamael, whom else?). This great pack is to be something different, not Sammael's one.
: 2004-01-29
I tend to agree with Tamyrlin on this one. With the way Rand describes his two wounds, it would make sense for the dark hounds to be after Fain. Fain is now combination of himself and Mordith (the entity that haunted Shadar Logoth). Maybe more one than the other(in ACOS he calls himself Jeraal Mordeth. In 'the big white book' it says, "Aridhol(Shadar Logoth) used the tactics of the Shadow against the Shadow." If Mordith controls Fain, I would imagine that he would try to renew his battle against the shadow. The DO doesn't tolerate traitors and, would probably like to nip this one in the bud before Mordith gathers his own army. Also in the "More of the Fain" sec. of the WOT FAQ they claim that in TSR Slayer is also hunting Fain.
asdaf: 2004-01-30
Slayer as it is stated in WH ("Whether Isam succeeds in finding and killing that other vermin, Fain") is definitively hunting Fain, who as we know is in Far Madding for some time. Fain not being a channeler can't Travel but he can use Ways safely, so this could be reason for darkhounds' frustration - one time he's here, next time he's there and they are running circles.
Second thing, everyone seems to forget, is size of this particular pack. It is HUGE. Fifty darkhounds in one pack while a dozen is normal maximum and this is one pack, not two or three combined - this would be impossible, they would attack each other. So, all these darkhounds only to kill Mat? I don't think so. First, he has no methods to defend himself – remember Rahvin's attack with darkhounds?, Rand had killed them with sword and they began to rise again, only balefire worked on them effectively. The same with Moiraine and Perrin. Second, Mat has been in Ebou Dar for a very long time and darkhounds are, well, fast. There is no way they wouldn't know where they pray (if it's Mat) was and there would be no reason for the frustration – they would simply go straight to Tarasin Palace and do what they where sent for.
IMO these darkhounds are after Fain, he can defend himself – e.g. nailing the fade – and his powers (whatever they are) are growing, so dozen darkounds could be not enough to slay him. He can travel using Ways, so the hunt is still on and darkhounds are frustrated (this can be the reason why they circled the camp and not run through it – they simply don't want ANY interferences with this extending hunt). As for the reason why the DO (yes, I believe this pack was sent directly by the Boss or Shaidar Haran – which is one and the same) wants Fain dead is not treason but fear. There is something with this... character (this thing?) – Fain/Mordeth – that... bothers the DO. Fain was “touched” by the DO at SG and later came in touch with Mordeth (power of Mashadar) and later came in touch with Machin Shin (was greeted as equal), so he has some significant role to play in coming events (he definitively has the potential).
IkilledAsmodean: 2004-02-01
Okay, if we suspect Fain is the target, then a few simple (or not so simple) questions can help.
What direction did the pack come from/ leave to?
What are Fain's last known whereabouts, direction-wise, from Perrin's camp?
The wolves would kill Darkhounds, we know, but would the hounds actually try to avoid the wolves? And if so, could that be some of the reason they avoided the camp?
On a side note, does this tie into the seemingly popular theory that the "freind" Balwer went to find was in fact Fain?
dragonsceptor: 2004-02-02
*****What direction did the pack come from/ leave to?********
I believe the came from the North and left to the south.
***What are Fain's last known whereabouts, direction-wise, from Perrin's camp?*****
Fain is in Far Madding with Rand at this time (remember the attack on Rand and Lan). This is to the East of Perrin's camp. Why would they be heading south if Fain was to the east?
***The wolves would kill Darkhounds, we know, but would the hounds actually try to avoid the wolves? And if so, could that be some of the reason they avoided the camp?*****
Perrin said he had to reach far out to find any wolves and they fled at the smell of darkhounds. I think this makes it clear there weren't any wolves in the area. So, how could darkhounds avoiding wolves be relevant if there weren't any in the area?
***On a side note, does this tie into the seemingly popular theory that the "freind" Balwer went to find was in fact Fain?***********
No clue. However, I doubt Balwer's friend is Fain. I can't imagine the head of the whitecloak spy network being friends with someone who diminishes his own power.
IkilledAsmodean: 2004-02-02
Well then, this makes it unlikely that the pack is hunting either Fain or Perrin. They left the worng direction to be chasing Fain, and they did not take Perrin when the clear chance was there.
So, what is south?
dragonsceptor: 2004-02-04
The only thing south is Ebou Dar with Mat, Tuon, Thom, Julien,Noal Charin, Olver, the remaining members of the Band, Anath, Suroth, Setalle Anan, the three AS Mat rescued, the Gholam, the deathwatch guard, a seeker, and a crap load of Seanchen. Plenty of targets to choose from. To really make a determination, we have to know how sent the pack and determine what their motivation would be. That will help narrow the possibilities. I was convinced the pack was sent by Sammael but we have seen evidence this might not be correct and I am left at a loss as to who they are after.
Bela: 2004-02-04
Ok, haven't replied in a while. first of all;
Mat is way too obvious. he's the only important character in that general area right now (That we know of) and Jordan tends to enjoy throwing us red herrings. we need to look at things from RJ's Point of View: He knows we are going to be discussing this and he knows who we will be considering. he's not going to put the DH's on the trail of someone he knows is the logical explanation.
dragonsceptor: 2004-02-04
So who do you think it is Bela? I am willing to entertain any and all ideas. I just haven't seen one that doesn't have significant points against it.
Khaos: 2004-02-05
I think if we answer the question of how do the darkhounds hunt it might explain who they hunt.
My personal theory is that there tracking is scent based much in the same way as the sniffer from Fal Dara in the TGH whose name escapes me. Although they don't track the resonance of violence but the resonance of the person they have been set to hunt.
If this is so we can conclude that there 'scenting' would also be active in the mirror worlds as was the sniffers.
Now we are also informed in the books that the Ways were grown based upon the ancient Aes Sedai understanding of the mirror worlds. It is therefore not too much of a stretch to conclude that Darkhounds can scent resonance in the real world as they follow the unseen path of the ways.
This would make Fain prime suspect for there target as he is the only one we know of currently that can and is safely using the ways.
If this is all true the the direction the darkhounds are going is a red herring as they would have to follow Fain's route to Far Madding. Also as we should remeber that ways are not exactly as the crow flies passages and some bridges have collapsed forcing roundabout routes, so to go east he may have to first go south. His use of the ways would keep him ahead of them which would also explain there frustration.
heronblade: 2004-02-05
I think the important thing is that they didn't attack perrin. they specifically went out of their way to avoid him. it says in COT that the darkhounds have no problem killing people at random that they aren't hunting as long as it doesn't disrupt the hunt. why should running directly through perrins camp disrupt the hunt.
this tells us that whoever is directing the hunt has a reason for not wanting a fight between perrin's camp and this huge pack. i don't think it can be bacause who ever it is worries the pack might loose. as it was said before, there arn't enough channelers in the camp that will know balefire to make a serious difference. so why was the conflict avoided? i think it's obvious that someone either wants perrin or someone in perrins camp alive for something later, and whats perrins camp heading towards...?
Caracarn: 2004-02-05
One thing i don't see mentioned very often in peoples ideas on who the darkhounds were hunting is the size of the pack. What could be so powerful or so threatening that the Shadow would send 50 darkhounds to take it down. I can't remember the exact number but i know it was less than 50 darkhounds who attacked Rand in the Waste and When Samael sent a pack. Because of this i'm pretty sure we can rule out Thom and to a lesser extent Mat because even with Mat's abilities of tactics i don't think he could beat 50 darkhounds without the aid of balefire and Thom has no special abilities in combat that we know of. I'm thinking that the Darkhounds are after Rand and that 50 were sent because of the Choden Khal(the shadow may not know that the female access key was ruined). Like I said i'm pretty sure the other two darkhound attacks had less than 50 but i'm not sure.
dragonsceptor: 2004-02-05
Khaos, you make a compelling argument. I'm still not convinced but it Fain is beginning to look like a more likely target in my mind.
Caracarn,
I don't think it can be Rand. We can nail down the location of Rand because of the cleansing. It is shortly after the darkhounds pass Perrin's camp that Elyas returns and they travel to the Shaido camp. It is while observing the Shaido camp that the channelers feel the cleansing. From WH we know that Rand was in Far Madding for weeks before the cleansing and he left Far Madding and travelled directly to SL to do the cleansing. If they were hunting Rand, why the confusion? He had been in the same place for quite a while. Also, why were they heading south if Far Madding is to the East? while I agree that Rand would be enough of a target to dedicate 50 darkhounds to, I don't think the evidence supports this. Especially since Moridin does not appear to want Rand dead. He says that if Rand must die to stop the cleansing then so be it but it did not sound like this was the preferable course. Why would the DO or any of the forsaken send darkhounds after Rand if it was preferable for Rand to live?
I agree that the fact the pack had 50 in it is significant. We learn from Masuri that packs gernally aren't more than 10-15. However, I don't think Rand is the likely target.
Davian93: 2004-02-05
**** I'm thinking that the Darkhounds are after Rand and that 50 were sent because of the Choden Khal(the shadow may not know that the female access key was ruined). Like I said i'm pretty sure the other two darkhound attacks had less than 50 but i'm not sure. *****
I think Rand could make short work of even 50 darkshounds even with the female CK key melted. He still has the most powerful male sa'angreal ever created. He could crack the world much less dispose of 50 darkhounds. Good question though, who would you send 50 darkhounds after? Rand does make the most sense since he is the most dangerous target of the Shadow but you dont always have to take out the main target to win. Just take out one of the key support elements and its just as good. If they're heading south towards Mat or Ebou Dar (which is where Rand will be shortly) it will probably figure promently in the next book. Rand would be kinda surprised to travel to meet the Daughter of the Nine Moons and run in to both Semirage (Anath) and the largest pack of Darkhounds seen since the War of Power.
Eelfinn Ty: 2004-02-05
The only characters who would merit such a large pack imho would be Rand or Fain. He seems to be gaining some unusual powers lately.
IkilledAsmodean: 2004-02-05
Well, if we're all so attuend to the answer not being the logical choice, why wouldn't the logical choice actually pop up occasionally?
I'm saying it is Mat. He's beaten enough of the forces of the dark for them to fear him. They want him gone. Not to mention, they know he has survived at least two Darkhound attacks now. SO why not get one of the three major ta'veren while they're seperated? And in force. I'm betting that the Forsaken (plural, in my opinion) that sent this huge pack aren't taking Mat's companions wiht anything approaching seriousnes. they just want him. Unless they know of Tuon, which means a darkfreind in camp.
Do I have any proof of this? Well, circumstantial.
1- mat is the only major lightside player we know of south
2- it woulde xplain why the hounds had to circle Perrin completely, instead of just bypassing. They sensed ta'veren, and had to be sure it was the right one before attacking, as they will fulfill just what mission they are given.
3- Mat has the "worst" streak of luck when it comes ot being attacked. it would be just like Jordan to bypass Perrin altogether just to attack Mat. He has been attacked by the Shaido, Darkhounds, the Finn, Aes Sedai (attempted at least), a gholam, fades, the Seanchan, and in some ways, the city of Shadar Logoth. Neither Perrin nor rand has been attacked by so many vastly different groups. And thus far, he seems to have dealt wiht every one of those on several basis, except the Darkhounds which he only dealt with once directly and once indirectly.
Anubis: 2004-02-05
the attacks in the waste were less then 12 i think.. i forget how many there were in TDR tho.
asdaf: 2004-02-05
Caracarn:
There were eleven darkhounds in Illian (two killed (or stopped) by Lan and Perrin, and nine balefired by Moirane) and there were nine or ten in Rhuidean (three for Rand, three for Mat and three or four for Asmodean). And as Moirane stated:
“Their packs are usually larger, as many as ten or twelve, or so say the scraps left from the War Of the Shadow."
Only thing I disagree with is Rand as the prey. As far as I remember he never was in that region so there is no way his “scent” would be there to be picked up by darkhounds – and even if he was, it would be long time ago, there would be better places to start hunting.
My bet is Fain.
Blacksmith: 2004-02-12
Every one seems conviced that Mat is too obvious. Rand and Fain are in the wrong place (East, not South). 50 Darkhounds is a lot. They are extremely difficult to take out. Hmmm. Who is in the south, is extremely difficult to take out, Foresaken would be afraid of, and has been known to move about quickly?
My money is on the Darkhounds are after the Gholam.
Have at it folks.
IkilledAsmodean: 2004-02-13
Now there's an interesting twist I hadn't considered. The Gholam as a target. Well, for that to happen, the Gholam must be known about by some Forsaken, which isn't that far-fetched, but it would also mean that some of the Forsaken are not playing well with the others.
It does make a kind of sense, though, the way they play off of each other. If you eliminate another Forsaken's weapon, you make yourself more powerful, but I'd say it'd be hard ot hide the fact that you have a pack this huge, and it being a natural pack, as the Aes Sedai said, it has to have been around in some way. It'd be hard ot hide 50+ Darkhounds from other Forsaken, I'm thinking. It'd also be very difficult to explain if the Gholam ended up dead, though, via Darkhound. No, I don't think the Gholam is the target, but then again, you never know.
I still maintain that the target is within Mat's group, and that is the focal point of the Darkhound pack. I would say Mat and Tuon.
-I'm assuming the well informed Forsaken are aware of the Daughter of Nine Moons' identity, and that she is with Mat. It also would be very realisitc to say that as much as Mat talked of the Daughter of Nine Moons, they would recognize that she means something to him, and that something could be very dangerous to them.
-Also, one of the guven reasons they could be after the Gholam was his difficulty to kill. Well,as I spelled out in my last post, Mat has had more Dark attempts on his life than even Rand. I would place him, and all considered, Tuon, as very very highly important to kill. Moreso than the Gholam. More so than Fain. Moreso than anyone, save Rand, and maybe more than him.
dragonsceptor: 2004-02-13
hmmm...Darkhounds after the Gholam. That is an interesting idea. while I believe your reasoning is sound, there is still the matter of motive. Why does the Gholam need to be destroyed and Who made this decision. It seems to me that the Gholam's instructions are two fold, take out Mat and follow/take out Elayne. When Elayne left with the Bowl of the Winds, the Gholam had to decide which of his directives was the most important and he chose Mat. So, why would any Forsaken, DO, or whoever else might be able to command a pack of 50 darkhounds want to kill the thing whose main purpose is to kill Mat. Without Mat, Rand cannot win TG. It seems that the forsaken/DO would want the Gholam to succeed. If Mat was already dead, this idea might make more sense.
Davian93: 2004-02-13
How would Darkhounds kill a Gholam anyhow? Nothing else hurts a Gholam so why would the Darkhounds have a chance. It doesnt really make sense.
Caracarn: 2004-03-31
Something i just thought of and i don't know if it's been mentioned is that maybe the forsaken are up to their old tricks. Throughout the series we are told that the Forsaken fought eachother as much as their enemies and maybe this is one of those instances. maybe one of the forsaken has decided that after the confusion of the events with the CK they can make a grab for power. Another possibility is that in WH one of the female forsaken, Graendal i think(srry for spelling), mentioned that the DO might not trust the male forsaken after saidin was cleansed, maybe one of the surviving male forsaken is trying to keep her from taking that suggestion to the DO himself.
dragonsceptor: 2004-04-22
I don't think it is forsaken rivalries. Most of the forsaken have been reigned in by Moridin. Unless you think Moridin did it. Most of the power struggles among the forsaken were in hopes of being named Naeblis. Moridin has already been named. I just don't see the motive.
Zepher: 2005-07-23
Fain is in Far Madding watching Rand. In WH he killed Kisman (sp?) after saying "he is mine"
Me thinks Fain is still there hoping to get a shot at Rand...
Jahar Narishma: 2005-07-23
I would argue that they are after Rand. He is the only character for whom fifty darkhounds would not be massive overkill. Unless one were attacking the White or Black Towers themselves, both of which are in the opposite direction of this pack, then there would simply be no point to sending that large a pack after anyone else.
Now, Masuri says that they seem to have been hunting for a while. They bypassed Perrin's camp, not because of fear of defeat, but likely because it would take too much time, which indicates that they may be getting frustrated because every time they think they're closing in on the scent, it vanishes and appears somewhere else.
Gee, why would that keep happening when chasing someone who channels?
In fact, Rand is Travelling all over Randland during Winter's Heart. He goes to a particular city for a few days, long enough to let everyone know that he's there, and long enough to set up a false trail somewhere else, and then Travels elsewhere. The only place that he disguises himself is when he goes to Caemlyn to get hitched.
The chronology of WH and COT is unclear, and it appears that all of the events in both books occur over a fairly short period of time. During WH, Rand certainly Traveled to Tear and Illian as part of his laying false trails, perhaps these darkhounds are wayyyy behind him.
Of course, the other truly obvious answer is that one of the Forsaken has sent them after Suroth/Semirhage. She would be one of the few other targets against whom one would send that many Darkhounds, and she's in Ebou Dar, right along their path. As for who may have sent them after her, it could be any of the Forsaken who want to get her out of the way, maybe Demandred. While Ishy/Moridin could easily have sent them in an effort to derail Semirhage's alleged plot against Rand, since he may have other plans, I can't imagine that he would do something so circuitous when he could simply have her taken to Shayol Ghul and mindtrapped if he wanted to.
Anubis: 2005-07-23
Fain doesnt wait anywhere for Rand, he goes where he will be able to do Rand the most harm.
Callandor: 2005-07-24
**Me thinks Fain is still there hoping to get a shot at Rand...**
Why would he be? Remember, Fain can sense where Rand is, unless he's in the Void (which, granted is a lot of the time, but not all the time). So Fain doesn't really "wait" anywhere -- he seeks Rand out or, the furthest degree of waiting, he tries to lure Rand into a trap.
**Unless one were attacking the White or Black Towers themselves, both of which are in the opposite direction of this pack, then there would simply be no point to sending that large a pack after anyone else.**
Fain is a massive problem, and the Shadow does realize it by sending their top assassain after him. A large pack of Darkhounds after Fain, I wouldn't say is overkill. Just them getting tired of him slipping through ;)
**In fact, Rand is Travelling all over Randland during Winter's Heart. He goes to a particular city for a few days, long enough to let everyone know that he's there, and long enough to set up a false trail somewhere else, and then Travels elsewhere. The only place that he disguises himself is when he goes to Caemlyn to get hitched.**
But he spends roughly 2-3 weeks in Far Madding.
It's also very well suited that the Darkhounds are getting tired of hunting after a person who continually uses the Ways (which is of course Fain).
IkilledAsmodean: 2005-07-31
Here's a bit of a thought. It might be very wrong or absed on flimsy evidense, but I'll throw it out there, just to cover the bases.
Anyway, my basis is the odd attitude and situation of the Darkhounds. Circling the camp like that...well, Darkhounds just don't do things like that.
Add to that the huge size of a never before seen pack.
Evidense (however flimsy) out of the way, I bring you my kooky idea. What if this pack was "rescued" from a stasis box, and then the owner was killed? As Rand and co have killed several Forsaken fairly haphazardly, this could be this case. That would, unless I'm mistaken, leave the pack wandering freely on their own merit. So perhaps they went to Perrin's camp on their own for reasons we don't know. My guess, to shivy out on that thinbranch a bit more, is that maybe they wanted a look at the human who'd killed one of their own, a rare feat. Perhaps the wolves in the area intrigued them, or the two Wolfbrothers. Or maybe they simply have a twisted sense of humor gaiend with their freedom.
Well, thanks for reading, and let the picking apart begin.
Anubis: 2005-08-01
**Why would he be? Remember, Fain can sense where Rand is, unless he's in the Void (which, granted is a lot of the time, but not all the time).**
Either I completely missed something or you're wrong, either way I would love to see a quote on this.
Callandor: 2005-08-01
**Either I completely missed something or you're wrong, either way I would love to see a quote on this.**
You should know better by now Anubis ;)
It's a centerpiece of knowledge in The Great Hunt, and slightly expressed throughout the series.
**TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 19 - Beneath the Dagger
"The man who had been sleeping near the chest suddenly sat up with a strangled yell, then leaped to his feet. "It's gone! Wake, you filth! It's gooonnne!" Fain's voice; even in the void Rand recognized it. The others scrambled erect, Darkfriends and Trollocs, calling to know what was happening, growling and snarling. Fain's voice rose to a howl. "I know it is you, al'Thor! You're hiding from me, but I know you are out there! Find him! Find him! Al'Thoooor!" Men and Trollocs scattered in every direction."
1. Rand steals the Horn and dagger back from Fain while in the Void. If he had not been in the Void, he would've been sensed right away.
2. Fain yells out that al'Thor is hiding from him.
**TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 19 - Beneath the Dagger
"Fain glanced contemptuously at the other humans - They'll have their uses still - then turned to stare into the night, toward Kinslayer's Dagger. Al'Thor was up there, somewhere, in the mountains. With the Horn. His teeth grated audibly at the thought. He did not know where, exactly, but something pulled him toward the mountains. Toward al'Thor. That much of the Dark One's . . . gift . . . remained to him. He had hardly thought of it, had tried not to think of it, until suddenly, after the Horn was gone - Gone! - al'Thor was there, drawing him as meat draws a starving dog."
Fain is drawn to Rand, it's the gift that allowed him to follow Rand throughout The Eye of the World, and for the rest of the series.
**TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 3 - Friends and Enemies
"Fain stood at Egwene's approach, not shielding his eyes or even blinking at the light. He smiled at her, a smile that touched only his lips, then raised his eyes above her head. Looking straight at Rand, hidden in the blackness behind the light, he pointed a long finger at him. "I feel you there, hiding, Rand al'Thor," he said, almost crooning. "You can't hide, not from me, and not from them. You thought it was over, did you not? But the battle's never done, al'Thor. They are coming for me, and they're coming for you, and the war goes on. Whether you live or die, it's never over for you. Never." Suddenly he began to chant."
This is of course before Fain becomes completely aware that Rand can hide in the Void.
**TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 11 - Glimmers of the Pattern
"Lying there in his blankets, he stared northward. He could not feel al'Thor, now; the distance between them was too great. Or perhaps al'Thor was doing his vanishing trick. Sometimes, in the keep, the boy had suddenly vanished from Fain's senses. He did not know how, but always al'Thor came back, just as suddenly as he had gone. He would come back this time, too."
Rand of course really only used the Void at a few instances at this point in the story:
1. Practicing with the sword.
2. When he faced the Amyrlin.
He doesn't do any other trick ;)
JakOShadows: 2005-08-03
I really don't agree with the fact that the statis box was opened and they were freed. I think if the darkhounds were released they would have to be released by a forsaken, then he would give them the scent immediately as the box was opened. That being said, Mat is the most logical choice to me. He is the hornblower, completely lucky, in Seanchan territory which has channelers, etc. So the 50 darkhounds would not be overexcessive in my mind. And if Fain popped up in Far Madding they would go straight there to attack if he was their target. The ways are outside of Randland so he couldn't be tracked while in the ways. Rather, they would go to him as soon as he came out. And you also have to remember the way gates are being destroyed, so he won't be able to use them anymore. Now that I think about, that last bit doesn't prove much. Sorry, its late. I just wanted to point out that 50 darkhounds on Mat wouldn't be out of line considering all of his narrow escapes from the DO's assassins.
Callandor: 2005-08-03
**And if Fain popped up in Far Madding they would go straight there to attack if he was their target.**
The problem is that it's highly unlikely they would just suddenly know he's in Far Madding. Of course, he could easily be evading the Darkhounds, if they do not use the Ways, and have to go the long way, but then the problem of tracking comes up again.
**And you also have to remember the way gates are being destroyed, so he won't be able to use them anymore.**
They're not.
**TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight, CHAPTER: 24 - A Strengthening Storm
"Loial's ears twitched, and he gave Min another look, received another encouraging smile in return. "Well, as I said, I visited all the stedding but Shangtai. Karldin wouldn't go inside. He'd rather sleep every night under a bush than be cut off from the Source for a minute." Rand did not say a word, but Loial raised his hands from his knees, palms out. "I am getting to the point, Rand. I am. I did what I could, but I don't know whether it was enough. The stedding in the Borderlands told me to go home and leave matters to older and wiser heads. So did Shadoon and Mardoon, in the mountains on the Shadow Coast. The other sledding agreed to guard the Waygates. I don't think they really believe there's any danger, but they agreed, so you know they will keep a close guard. And I'm sure someone will take word to Shangtai. The Elders in Shangtai never liked having a Waygate right outside the stedding. I must have heard Elder Haman say a hundred times that it was dangerous. I know they'll agree to have it watched."**
The steddings agreed to post a guard on the Ways; in all except the Shadow Coast, and the Borderlands, leaving nine Waygates unguarded.
JakOShadows: 2005-08-05
Callandor: I guess I didn't read that closely. Sorry. But I always thought that darkhounds didn't follow scent so much as the soul itself. In the reference book, they talk about it hunting for souls. And in Crossroads of Twilight, they seem to smell that he's ta'veren. If you have any references it would help. They're abilities always struck me as supernatural, more like sensing the weave. But if you know of a quote, it would be nice. I'll do some looking too.
Callandor: 2005-08-06
**I guess I didn't read that closely. Sorry. But I always thought that darkhounds didn't follow scent so much as the soul itself.**
I don't recall anything like that. As far as I know, how Darkhounds track hasn't been addressed.
**TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight, CHAPTER: 7 - Blacksmith's Puzzle
"There is always a feel of urgency about Darkhounds' trails, but it varies according to a number of factors, not all of which I can be certain of. This one has an intense admixture of. . . I suppose you could call it impatience. That isn't really strong enough, by far - as well call a stabwound a pinprick - but it will do. I would say their hunt has been going on for some time, and their prey is eluding them somehow. No matter what the stories say - by the way, Lord Gallenne, salt doesn't harm Darkhounds in the least." So she had not been entirely lost in thought after all. "Despite the stories, they never hunt at random, though they will kill if the opportunity presents itself and doesn't interfere with the hunt. With Darkhounds, the hunt is paramount. Their quarry is always important to the Shadow, though at times we cannot see why. They have been known to bypass the great and mighty to slay a farmwife or a craftsman, or to enter a town or village and leave without killing, though clearly they came for some reason. My first thought for what brought them here had to be discarded, since they moved on." Her gaze flickered toward Perrin, so quickly he was not sure anyone else noticed. "Given that, I strongly doubt they will return. Oh, yes; and they are an hour or more gone. That, I'm afraid, is really all I can tell you." Nevarin and the other Wise Ones nodded their approval as she finished, and a touch of color returned to her cheeks, though it vanished quickly as she assumed a mask of Aes Sedai serenity. A shift in the breeze brought her scent to Perrin, surprised and pleased, and upset at being pleased."
How they track their victims seems to be just like normal dogs.