1
Tamyrlin: 2003-01-15
This is definitely a new idea. Do you have quotes on the blacksmith information? That would be very helpful in establishing this idea. But you may have something. The axe is gone, and I highly doubt Perrin got rid of it only to take a hammer up and kill more people with it. Of course, as you said, it won't go smoothly, but I could see Jordan using the blacksmith to get Perrin in there. Perrin, Tallanavor, and the Asha'man.
2
Scamr: 2003-01-20
they're quotes on the blackmiths being prohibited from being made gai'shan, and you can crawl around tFoH, where Avi is giving lessons on Aiel tradtions, but the queckest way is in the glossary, under gai'shan, where is states "wise one, a blacksmith, a child or a woman wiht a child under 10 may not be maid gai'shan, further evidence is available, but I am to tired.
3
Darren: 2003-01-23
The problem, of course, is two-fold. First, that Perrin is, obviously, not-Aiel, and secondly that the Shaido have abandoned ji'e'toh.
Both of these reasons, especially in combination, make it supremely unlikely that Perrin is going to be granted the privilege of walking into the camp. Never mind how he would be able to walk several gai'shain out with him.
4
Elder Haman: 2003-01-24
Ahh, but in CoT, Faile says that the Shadio let all the blacksmiths (non-Aiel) leave without making them gai'shan. Therefore we know that the Shadio are still following this part of ji'e'toh and apply it to non-Aiel.
Perrin doesn't need to take Falie out through the camp. He can have an Asha'man travel into the camp - and the Wise Ones can't sense it. The problem is that someone needs to contact Falie first to make sure that she and her group are there waiting so they can escape- they won't have time to search for her.
5
gil-estel: 2003-01-29
Are any of Perrin's wise ones dreamwalkers? If so they could easily contact Faile or Bain or Chiad through their dreams. The Aiel girls would probably be better since they would no that the dreams would be communications from the wise ones.
6
jason wolfbrother: 2003-01-29
Nope. Sorry. All of the Dreamwalkers are still with Rand's Aiel. :)
7
Graendalboytoy: 2003-02-09
Perrin doesn't have to be a blacksmith to get into the camp. He could just allow himself to be taken gaishan and accomplish the same thing. Sevanna is trying to take as many wetlander gaishan as she can so Perrin should not have a problem getting himself Tallanvor,and the Asha'man into camp that way. This would also satisfy Berelain falling head over heels over a man in white wouldn't it?
8
Callandor: 2003-02-09
Id just like to point out that the man in white is most likely Galad because he is with..."Fanfare plays"... the Whitecloaks.
Come on how many times has Berelain been called the Most Beautiful Woman in the World? Well Galad is most likely the Most Gorgeous Hunk in the World so why not put them together? And the Whitecloaks are on the rub from Seanchan, plus Galad has been out of the picture for FAR too long.
9
Logain: 2003-02-09
But by going on that theory, how does one get the seanchan, masema's men, and the children of light in one room let alone a battlefield? I don't see Perrin getting Faile away from the Shaido (and defeating them) until very shortly before the last battle.
10
Callandor: 2003-02-10
Come on, Rand and Mat can negotiate with the Sea Folk like nothing. Its TA VEREN people! :-).
11
Graendalboytoy: 2003-02-11
I see what you are saying Callandor...If the Whitecloaks caught up to them, Berelain would probably be the one to negotiate with them,given Perrin's history with them...And we all know a gal like her would not settle for anything less than a pretty boy like that. But Perrin can still rescue Faile without a knockdown drag out battle. That's what Grady and Neald are for,right?
12
jaellon: 2003-02-26
I see problems with both possibilities:
Just walking in as a blacksmith wouldn't be nearly as easy as it sounds. Perrin may be a blacksmith, but nobody else in his party is, and they aren't likely to fool the Aiel. All references in the books have been to blacksmiths being allowed to leave. None have mentioned blacksmiths being allowed to come and go as they please. At best, they would be denied entry. At worst, killed.
Turning themselves in for capture would be equally as dangerous. They Shaido have abandoned ji'e'toh, but they haven't abandoned intelligence. If anything, it's been honed while they've been wandering in the wilderness. If several men showed up on their doorstep, essentially asking to be taken gaishain, the Shaido would be very suspicious. If captured, they would be watched carefully. Otherwise, they would just be killed.
I think rescuing Faile will involve one or more of the following: a direct frontal assault using whatever armies can be gathered; sneaking into camp, finding Faile, and sneaking back out; and Faile escaping on her own, no doubt with help from her new-found boyfriend. The best storyline would involve all three.
13
Callandor: 2003-02-26
I like the idea that Perrin is about to go and attack the Aiel and Faile comes into the camp, having escaped with the help of her companions and Rolan her **Aiel boyfriend**.
Main reason I like this is because in this way, since Berlain is ALWAYS around Perrin now-a-days if Faile were to come walking up, having just escaped with the help of this guy Rolan, Perrin will of COURSE thank him even a little bit, and with Berlain around Perrin she will get a glimpse of Rolan.
Now Min said that Berlain will fall in love with a man in white, I personally always thought this would be Galad and still kinda hope it happens too :-). Now with Rolan being a Aiel, maybe he might give up his warrior life and turn Gai shan to Berlain? Just interesting thought :-).
14
solomonrex: 2003-02-28
I like this theory a lot. It explains the timing of Perrin throwing the axe away. I think, however, he has not given up his war. First of all, the Seanchan have just arrived and he wants an alliance (even though he just threw his axe away). Second, Rand still needs Masema watched and the Shaido destroyed. Third, Faile's relationship with the gaishain smells like a tragic/ ironic plot to me: Perrin finds out about Faile's unfaithfulness and Faile hears the rumors about Berelain and Perrin. Both will think the other one is being unfair, for good reason. Perrin could rescue Faile as a blacksmith and still end up in a battle with the Shaido. After all, he'd be in one _epic_ bad mood. ;)
15
Elder Haman: 2003-03-03
First of all- FAILE HAS NOT BEEN UNFAITHFUL! Sorry, it's just that I'm getting tired of hearing that. Falie has thought that she may have to flirt w/ Rolan, but she would never cheat on Perrin, just like he never cheated on her-
That said- it does sound like a tragic plot line. Perrin's followers are all thinking that he slept w/ Berelain, and Faile's followers think she slept w/ Rolan-
Thank goodness they both know each well enough that they'll believe each other and not everyone else- though Falie will likely claw Berelain's eyes out for putting out the rumor, and Perrin won't like Rolan all that much, (remember how he felt about Luc and Wil).
16
Lorddragonwolf: 2003-09-14
this is a good theory. but there are several aiel that know perrin who have gone over to the shaido camp. wont they reconize perrin and warn sevanna who would love to have a barganing chip to help her get rand.
17
Callandor: 2003-09-14
**but there are several aiel that know perrin who have gone over to the shaido camp. wont they reconize perrin and warn sevanna who would love to have a barganing chip to help her get rand.**
And those would be who? The only ones that know of Perrin, in the Shaido camp, that I know of are the people that would WANT Perrin to free them. Sevanna hasn't seen Perrin that we know of (it is kinda hard to pick out a person in a major battle like Dumai's Wells, especially if you have only heard of them before ;)), and that leaves Galina (only heard of him, but she might have been at the BF social in TGH).
So, it could possibly work.
18
Anubis: 2003-09-14
getting in is easy. perrin could walk in at any time. the trick is in getting out.
19
: 2003-09-15
I think that everyone is dancing around the issue of what would actually happen should Perrin approach the camp as a Blacksmith (something I very much expect in the next book).
Perrin approaches the camp carrying his hammer. It is very clear that he is a blacksmith. The Shaido, up to now, have let the blacksmiths go when they overrun a town, but they have not been following all of ji'e'toh. This disparity has been weighing on the hearts and minds of the brotherless. The shaido camp is very nearly two camps set against each other. The brotherless are not fully accepted or trusted, nor do they appreciate the way Sevanna and the others have been corrupting ji'e'toh. The camp is a dry tree branch stretched to its limit. Perrin will be the added weight that snaps it completely. Here is my logic: Sevanna will take him gaishain, and insodoing will have broken a great number of prohibitions:
1) Perrin is a wetlander
2) Perrin is a blacksmith
3) Perrin came under a banner of truce/parley
Sevanna cannot help but give into her greed; here, standing before her, is another finger around the throat of Rand al'Thor, the man she intends to marry herself. Perrin is ta'veren, so even though Sevanna might know better than to take him gaishain, she gives in. This is the last straw for the brotherless, who break from the Shaido and fight them. That gives Perrin the confusion that he needs to get Faile and the others to safety (by whatever means, Asha'man, running... a giant to'raken... whatever), and also finally finishes the Shaido for good.
Oh, and Perrin does not even have to recognize the fact that as a blacksmith he would be out-of-bounds for being made gaishain. He would just be approaching the camp doing what he could to free Faile... either to bargain with Sevanna or to trade himself for Faile. That meeting starts the row of dominoes mentioned above.
BTW, man-in-white=Galad, IMO.
20
rubbernilly: 2003-09-16
Sorry, that nameless post above is mine. Don't know if I did something wrong or if the database just puked on that record, but that's me.
21
Murrin: 2003-10-28
Of course, just raising a weapon to a blacksmith is unheard of among Aiel - I believe at one point Aviendha likens raising a weapon to a blacksmith to raising a weapon to a child...
Another thing. When Perrin threw away the axe, he said 'maybe some fool gleeman will make a story out of it'. The Aiel do not treat gleemen like other wetlanders - they come and go as they please. If Mat meets up with perrin, then Thom will be with him. The gleeman reference with the axe is a precursor to Merrilin's arrival. Then they have two men who will not be made Gai'shain... Oh, and a child under ten (Olver), but I don't think that'll make a difference.
22
Elder Haman: 2004-01-11
None of the Shaido know Perrin because he was in the Two Rivers the whole time Rand was dealing with the Shaido.
23
Mirtam Caulthon: 2004-01-12
How about Aram? He's a former tinker, who the Aiel avoid like the plauge and he still looks just like one if you take his sword away. He follows Perrin everywhere and is at least as loyal to Faile. Even if the Shaido would take Perrin-the-Blacksmith Gaishain they wouldn't touch someone they thought was a tinker.
24
Grady: 2004-01-12
I've thought for awhile now that the Brotherless would turn on the Shaido and create the chance for Faile's escape or Perrin saving her. Must admit the Aiel view on blacksmiths totally slipped my mind (must be getting old) I'm willing to bet Sevaana will do something with Perrin that violates Ji'e'toh and since the brotherless still follow it, it will be the spark to set that whole situation ablaze. Good theory Haman.
25
Khaos: 2004-02-09
Mirtam Cauthon I have to disagree with you completely. If anything Aram's presence would precipitate an attack from the Shaido. It is very likely that the slaughter of the Tinkers in LOC? was perpetrated by the Shaido. In fact Aram suddenly showing up with Perrin a Tinker with a sword could spark the incident that could bring the Brotherless to turn on the Shaido while at the same time putting Perrin in grave danger and thus fulfilling Min's viewing.
26
Illuminati: 2004-02-10
Except som slips in the end of this thread this is a good theory. I think that if you combine this with the Mat theory that someone else had under this "chapter" about perrin and faile you'll most likely end up with something that could happen.
With this I mean that I think that Mat and Perrin will launch simultanious attempts to free Faile. Maybe Mats will be to free Perrin when his spies in the area (not knowing Perrin is around) ses what happens to Perrin as he tries the blacksmith-move. Anyway, they'll only meetup inside the Shaidocamp, be surprised to see the whole gang, make a hasty escape that will or just have launched the brotherless' rebelling and use this as their advantage to launch a simultanious attack with Perrin and Mat's forces.
Maybe even Berelain will manage to sway Galad to take in some whitecloaks into the battle too, just so the whitecloaks can do something right once in this serie. :)
Anyways, my point is that I think there will be simultanious attempts, not a coordinated plan. Pretty much like the events in Tear where everyone kind of winded up inside without knowing about all the others.
27
Far Dareis Mai: 2004-05-19
I don't think Perrin will try the whole blacksmith thing, because as far as we know, he doesn't know he wouldn't be harmed.
Do you all remember when he was trying to find Faile in tDR when he entered T'A'R 'too strongly' (aka in body). From what I understand of T'A'R, you could enter it in one place and come out in a nother if you entered fully. My theory is that THAT is how Perrin plans to rescue Faile.
***I think there will be simultanious attempts, not a coordinated plan. Pretty much like the events in Tear where everyone kind of winded up inside without knowing about all the others.***
I really liked this theory, or the general idea of it. That scene in Tear when they realized everyone was there was (to me) hilarious.
28
waterbucket: 2004-05-25
You're suggesting Perrin will pull a Slayer? If I recall correctly, TAR is how Slayer can sneak into pretty much anywhere. He also uses it to get the jump on targets.
29
Callandor: 2004-05-26
**You're suggesting Perrin will pull a Slayer? If I recall correctly, TAR is how Slayer can sneak into pretty much anywhere. He also uses it to get the jump on targets.**
Slayer uses Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh; that is how he can go from one place to another, without needing to really travel.
Perrin can go anywhere in the world, in Tel'aran'rhiod; however, he must return to his body in order to actually "move." He is not there in the flesh.
30
Darren: 2004-05-27
**Now Min said that Berlain will fall in love with a man in white, I personally always thought this would be Galad and still kinda hope it happens too :-). Now with Rolan being a Aiel, maybe he might give up his warrior life and turn Gai shan to Berlain? Just interesting thought... **
That IS an interesting thought. I always figured it would be Galad, too. Note that Min's viewing saw nothing of her love being returned. It would be interesting to see her being led around by the "nose" for a change. However, I never considered that it might be a gai'shain. I still consider it unlikely, but it's a thought alright.
31
Elder Haman: 2004-05-29
Some have also suggested that Perrin is the man in white (mourning clothes for Faile). I don't buy it though. I think this is one of those (few) prophecies that RJ meant to be obvious- it's Galad in his white cloak. (Besides, I think Min would mention if it was Perrin, of course... she knows Galad too, so maybe it is Rolan... hmm, nah it has to be Galad).
32
heronblade: 2004-05-30
just because they won't make him gai'shan, doesn't mean they'll let him wander about the camp. all ji'e'toh means is if they defeat him in combat they won't take him prisoner.
33
danger: 2004-05-31
I think that Perrin HAS to pull a blacksmith trick because RJ has mentioned it so many times that there has to be a reason. Some one asked if Perrin had any dreamwalkers...no, but maybe he can do what needs to be done himself in the wolf dream (probably not but who knows)
Most likely Perrin will try to sneak into the camp, and Mat will come along and decide he has to take matters into his own hands for whatever reason. (Like Tear)
Also, I think it would be RJ's Style to kill two birds with one stone, or maybe three. The prophet, (possible under the influence of the forsaken) the Seanchen, and the Shaido are all big problems for Rand, so why not just let them kill each other. I think it's going to be a huge unexpected battle with Perrin, Mat, Tom, Galad, and Faile running around in the crazy taveren way they do.
34
brother of Battles: 2004-07-09
I also would like to see Galad get into the battle if it occurs, but only because he would recognize Morgase and Parrin will learn that she isn't dead. Which then Rand will learn, then Elayne(sp?) will learn and she will have an easier time bringing Andor around to suport Rand because no one will still believe he killed her.
I also like the idea of Parrin getting into the camp, any which way he can, letting Faile know about the pick-up, then having one of the Asha'men Travel to a predetermined camp, pick them up, then get them the heck out of there. He wouldn't even need to skim if he holds the gateway open, they just need to jump through the opening.
35
IkilledAsmodean: 2004-07-20
I would point out that Mat showing up blows Morgase' entire cover, because he knows what both she and Talanavor look like, and who they really are.
Not to mention Thom and Morgase in the same place at once would be an interesting chapter in itself.
As for negotiating to get the WHitecloaks invovled, I think a very important piece of that has been unmentioned: Balwar. I can't remember the quotes that help, but I am pretty sure Galad knows who Balwar is (or rather, was) at least on a general level.
36
Aiel Finn: 2005-03-24
Maybe Rand will show up in this giant mess too, and the LB will start shortly after everyone begins to attack each other. (I'm serious)
