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oming soon, the Lady in Blue...
by Father Time: 2004-07-20 | Not yet rated
Previous Categories: The Walking Dead
Lan's bond was transferred after Moraine and Lanfear went through the doorway.
Min's viewing 'that failed' is most probably related to Moraine.
Egwene's dream of having Thom pull the blue stone from the fire is something to do with him saving Moraine.
Min saw other things during the time the group spent in Baerlon that she told Moraine but that we are not privvy to.
I have read many great (and sometimes fanatical) theories about how Moraine will be saved through the Tower of Ghenjei and that everyone and anyone under the sun will be the people that go in with Thom to help him save her. Is there any other scenario that fits the facts and is possible?
Try this...
Moraine and Lanfear died after battling it out at melting the doorway. Lan's bond was transferred because she did die and Lan knows the manner of her death (gift(?) of the Warder bond).
How does this fit with the remaining points of Thom saving Moraine and Min's vision?
Does anyone remember someone named Kari al'Thor? Thom and Co. somehow save Moraine's soul from the Dark One and she will reappear and help Rand just as Min has forseen.
All of the elements are possible (Ghosts are becoming quite common place, the Dark One is the Lord of The Grave, still room for the Tower of Ghenjei in the next book but more with an emphasis on Slayer than Moraine).
The only thing that seems against this is Moraine's offhand comment that she probably knows the face of her husband better than Egwene or Nyn knows the face of theirs.
Personally I am torn on whether I want Moraine to come back. Just wanted to get this out there and see what the WOT gurus think.
--Father Time
Isn't it about time?
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2004-10-06
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i've been saying this for four years now. (probably should've submitted it myself, other than in the Chronicles, but oh well)
DCIMorse: 2004-10-06
Possible, but kind of disappointing if true. Though I'm personally at a loss as to how any of the characters could find out that Moiraine is alive and rescue her within the time remaining in the series, I have to say I'm going to find anything other than a literal rescue extremely unsatisfying. Bringing her back as a ghost or a hero of the horn would just seem like a cheap trick to me, as if Jordan were thumbing his nose at all of the faithful who were tricked into thinking Moiraine would return in the flesh.
Frenzy: 2004-10-06
and having her come back from the dead like a bad comic book character, or have to be rescued like a damsel in distress from a bad fairy tale, wouldn't be thumbing his nose at us?
Callandor: 2004-10-06
**Moraine and Lanfear died after battling it out at melting the doorway. Lan's bond was transferred because she did die and Lan knows the manner of her death (gift(?) of the Warder bond).**
But Lanfear did not die; she was held by the Aelfinn and Eelfinn. If she didn't die, why assume that Moiraine did?
**Does anyone remember someone named Kari al'Thor? Thom and Co. somehow save Moraine's soul from the Dark One and she will reappear and help Rand just as Min has forseen.**
Kari in The Eye of the World was an illusion in Tel'aran'rhiod made by Ishamael to try to turn Rand over to the Dark. It failed.
Kari is dead, her soul is beyond reach.
**the Dark One is the Lord of The Grave**
In name; not practice. A name put to him by HUMANS.
**The only thing that seems against this is Moraine's offhand comment that she probably knows the face of her husband better than Egwene or Nyn knows the face of theirs.**
That, and...:
1. Look at the Glossary:
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: GLOSSARY
Moiraine Damodred (mwah-RAIN DAHM-oh-drehd): Aes Sedai of the Blue Ajah. Born 956 NE in the Royal Palace of Cairhien. After coming to the White Tower as a novice in 972 NE, her rise was meteoric, being raised Accepted in just three years and Aes Sedai only three more after that, at the end of the Aiel War. From that time she began a search for the young man who had (according to Gitara Morose, an Aes Sedai with the Foretelling) been born on the slopes of Dragonmount during the Battle of the Shining Walls and who would be the Dragon Reborn. It was she who took Rand al'Thor, Mat Cauthon, Perrin Aybara and Egwene al'Vere out of the Two Rivers. She vanished into a ter'angreal in Cairhien while battling Lanfear, ~apparently~ killing both herself and the Forsaken.**
Since it doesn't say outright, there is a major possibility here; especially since Lanfear makes no reference at all to dying at the hands of the Finn.
2. You're going to tell me that having a connection to another dimension destroyed, might not snap the Warder bond? ;)
**TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 15 - Into the Doorway
"You! You were both in there. That is why . . . !" She made a vexed hiss. "One of you would have been bad enough, but two ta'veren at once-*you might have torn the connection entirely and been trapped there.* Wretched boys playing with things you do not know the danger of. Perrin! Is Perrin in there, too? Did he share your . . . exploit!"**
If you substitute "channeling combatants" for "ta'veren," you have a description of what happened when Moiraine and Lanfear went through the door. The "tearing" of the connection between the two dimensions may have torn the connection between Moiraine and Lan, as well.
And that's the circumstantial evidence....
3. Min Farshaw is never, absolutely positively, NEVER EVER wrong with her viewings. RJ has confirmed this, and if you have read through Crossroads of Twilight and still don't believe it, you're severely messed up.
Moiraine is the only viewing of hers to fail. Since we know Min's viewings are never wrong, it has to be fulfilled ~eventually~. Hence, Moiraine's return.
4. Explain this:
**TITLE: Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 52 - Choices
*Suppressing a small bubble of hope-she could not allow herself that luxury-*Moiraine balanced upright a moment on the wagontail, then embraced the True Source and leaped at Lanfear. The Forsaken had an instant's warning, enough to turn before Moiraine struck her, clawing the bracelet away. Face to face, they toppled through the doorframe ter'angreal. White light swallowed everything.**
Wait, what? Moiraine is about to go and trash a Forsaken who can kill her in seconds through a doorway into another dimension, a fate which she saw the outcomes of in the Rings of Rhuidean and knew she had to do, and a fate of which nothing was shown afterwards for her, yet she has a small bubble of hope???
5. Egwene's dream is important because it is Moiraine's jewel; not some random jewel. We all know Moiraine is out of commison and Thom did not pull her out of any fires after Egwene's dream -- odds are, not certainty though, that it will take place.
6. Moiraine knows the face of her husband, as you have said. There have been minor foreshadowings of affection growing between Moiraine and Thom from book 1 (resulting in tremendous forshadowing by book 10 ;)).
7. Moiraine in The Eye of the World, is one of the few (or the only one) who doesn't believe Thom to be dead. Interesting giving the circumstances. What would make her believe him alive after Rand and Mat's story? Granted it could be simple acceptence that Thom is a formidible man, but look at the other evidence I've given, and tell me she wasn't told a shock about Thom and herself for the future.
8. More of an interesting tidbit then fact, but Min's example of seeing two random people and knowing they will marry, when explaining to Rand how her Talent works, is very interesting in the scope of how she just had Thom and Moiraine in Baerlon when she said that ;)
9. Thom, again.
**TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 17 - Deceptions
"If you go with Elayne and Nynaeve, I will tell you the names of those Red sisters ~when I see you next~, as well as the name of the one who gave them their orders. They did not act on then own. *And I will see you again. You will survive Tarabon."***
Moiraine is deadpan serious that she will see Thom again, even BEFORE going to Rhuidean and seeing her futures. Why is that? Tarabon is a mess of danger, that people have been telling Nynaeve and Elayne about and war and strife are shooting up all over the place and simple chance permits that Moiraine might not see Thom again.... yet she is certain of it.
How interesting with the above evidence, isn't it?
**Bringing her back as a ghost or a hero of the horn would just seem like a cheap trick to me, as if Jordan were thumbing his nose at all of the faithful who were tricked into thinking Moiraine would return in the flesh.**
Exactly. Plus, Moiraine really hasn't done enough to get a position as a Hero of the Horn.
Jiana: 2004-10-06
He thumbs his nose at us all the time! I mean, this entire website is case in point. :) Always leaving us hanging, leaving characters out of the story for entire books, putting Rand in a BOX for almost an entire book for pete's sake... Oh yeah, he plays with us, knows he's doing it, and is laughing up his sleeve the whole time. But he also knows we enjoy it just as much as he does. :)
DCIMorse: 2004-10-07
Yes, yes, any kind of return is going to be cheezy on some level, and it would have been far more courageous for Jordan to just have her die and stay dead; but since she's almost certainly coming back in some form, I would much rather have her come back in the flesh than as a supernatural special effect, like Obi-Wan in ~The Empire Strikes Back~.
ilgross: 2004-10-07
Lanfear mentions being 'held' by the Finns so she didn't just die instantly, so why would Moriaine?
Jumai: 2004-10-07
A few points:
The Finn seem into absolute justice in the sense of getting EXACTLY what you ask for, in a way of their choosing but not neccecarily in a fair way. To the letter.
Cyndane is weaker in the power than Lanfear.
Moiraine was weaker in the power than Lanfear. Much weaker, she can balefire things back only a few seconds. Moghedien (using no angreal) did 2-3 minutes on Nynaeve's boat, and Rand is a fair sight stronger than Nynaeve, who is at very least (she was arguably still gaining strength during their epic battle) as strong as Moghedien.
Moiraine and Lanfear both likely asked for the same thing, likely they were both asking at the same time, meaning they would have been expected to pay the same price.
Stilling severs the warder bond.
Possible conclusion:
Moiraine and Lanfear each payed losing the ability to channel, in exactly equal amounts. Lanfear lost just some of it, but Moiraine lost all of it, they lost the same AMOUNT of the ability. This covers all bases, and speculates only on a single point (simultanious negotiation by Lanfear and Moiraine), and contradicts no known facts ("one thing that does not concern you" could mke a case for this, but an indirect influence on events could be seen as not concerning Rand).
: 2004-10-07
***But Lanfear did not die; she was held by the Aelfinn and Eelfinn. If she didn't die, why assume that Moiraine did?***
If Lanfear did not die then why is she in a different body (Cyndane) just like other Forsaken who have died and been brought back? It is illogical to assume that the Finn could hold her but not kill her.
***Kari in The Eye of the World was an illusion in Tel'aran'rhiod made by Ishamael to try to turn Rand over to the Dark. It failed. Kari is dead, her soul is beyond reach.***
If Kari was an illusion created by Ishmael then why did she thank Rand after Rand ‘saved' her? Rand just happened to seamlessly take over Ishmael's illusion? Remember that RJ went back and corrected a mistake made in describing Kari al'Thor in this scene in the first printings of Eye of the World so that her description would be accurate. A lot of trouble if it was a minor detail.
**the Dark One is the Lord of The Grave ... In name; not practice. A name put to him by HUMANS.**
This is your opinion. Nice opinion but no facts to say that he is not and proof from the books to show that he has at least some control beyond the grave over spirits that have pledged themselves to him.
**That, and...: She vanished into a ter'angreal in Cairhien while battling Lanfear, ~apparently~ killing both herself and the Forsaken.
Since it doesn't say outright, there is a major possibility here; especially since Lanfear makes no reference at all to dying at the hands of the Finn.**
See answer above as to Lanfear dying by the hands of the Finn. I agree that the word ‘apparently' leaves us hanging but it is not definitive.
***2. You're going to tell me that having a connection to another dimension destroyed, might not snap the Warder bond? ;) ...
If you substitute "channeling combatants" for "ta'veren," you have a description of what happened when Moiraine and Lanfear went through the door. The "tearing" of the connection between the two dimensions may have torn the connection between Moiraine and Lan, as well.***
If I understand what you are saying, having an Aes Sedai go to another dimension is suppose to tear the bond between the Aes Sedai and her warder? I don't agree with this statement. See Verin in the Great Hunt. She takes a ~3 month trip by Portal Stone via other dimensions to Toman Head. We see her later with her warder Ihvon. No problems with the warder bond.
Also, look closely at the words that Lan uses at the docks when talking to Rand. Does this not imply that she is dead and he knows it?
And that's the circumstantial evidence....
***3. Min Farshaw is never, absolutely positively, NEVER EVER wrong with her viewings. RJ has confirmed this, and if you have read through Crossroads of Twilight and still don't believe it, you're severely messed up.
Moiraine is the only viewing of hers to fail. Since we know Min's viewings are never wrong, it has to be fulfilled ~eventually~. Hence, Moiraine's return. ***
But that is the beauty of this theory. It allows for Min Farshaw's viewing to come true without bringing Moraine back in the flesh. I never state Moraine won't return, just that she will return as a spirit.
***4. Explain this:
*Suppressing a small bubble of hope-she could not allow herself that luxury-*
Wait, what? Moiraine is about to go and trash a Forsaken who can kill her in seconds through a doorway into another dimension, a fate which she saw the outcomes of in the Rings of Rhuidean and knew she had to do, and a fate of which nothing was shown afterwards for her, yet she has a small bubble of hope???***
Small nitpick. She did see ‘perhaps one small thing' that doesn't concern Rand after her trip through the doorway with Lanfear. As to the small bubble of hope, she has dedicated her life to finding Rand and defeating the Dark One. As she says in her letter to Rand after the battle, she had hoped at the outcome to the battle at the docks but wasn't sure. Since all other outcomes at the battle of the docks apparently had the Dark One winning I think that the bubble of hope she had is explained by her hope of the outcome of the battle being in Rand's favor, not that she would live. This line of reasoning has quickly led to conjecture but, to be fair, so did yours.
***5. Egwene's dream is important because it is Moiraine's jewel; not some random jewel. We all know Moiraine is out of commison and Thom did not pull her out of any fires after Egwene's dream -- odds are, not certainty though, that it will take place.***
A role for Thom is not ruled out in the scenario I eluded to. If Moraine is a spirit but trapped in Randland then she will need rescuing.
***6. Moiraine knows the face of her husband, as you have said. There have been minor foreshadowings of affection growing between Moiraine and Thom from book 1 (resulting in tremendous forshadowing by book 10 ;)).***
The wording Moraine uses (“I wager...”) in the reference to the face of her future husband is not exact, can be taken many ways and can not be construed as being definitive. I agree with the foreshadowing of Thom's affection towards Moraine but this could just as easily be justification for Thom to make an altruistic sacrifice to help save Moraine's spirit. We will just have to wait and see.
***Moiraine in The Eye of the World, is one of the few (or the only one) who doesn't believe Thom to be dead. Interesting giving the circumstances. What would make her believe him alive after Rand and Mat's story? Granted it could be simple acceptence that Thom is a formidible man, but look at the other evidence I've given, and tell me she wasn't told a shock about Thom and herself for the future.***
Thom being alive after White Bridge was explained by Moraine (partly) later. I believe it had reference to her assumption that people would have mentioned the fact that a gleeman had been killed (this is not satisfactory to me since he was not dressed as a gleeman at the time of his attacking the Fade). Of course, the same argument could be made that if someone died just before the fire that the people would have mentioned that as well but again, as you implied, this is circumstantial evidence either way.
***8. More of an interesting tidbit then fact, but Min's example of seeing two random people and knowing they will marry, when explaining to Rand how her Talent works, is very interesting in the scope of how she just had Thom and Moiraine in Baerlon when she said that ;)***
Also very interesting when we find out several books later that Min knew that she would fall in love with Rand from the moment that she first saw him. Wouldn't this have her thinking along the lines of marriage independent of any viewings she might have had?
9. Thom, again.
**TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 17 - Deceptions
"If you go with Elayne and Nynaeve, I will tell you the names of those Red sisters ~when I see you next~, as well as the name of the one who gave them their orders. They did not act on then own. *And I will see you again. You will survive Tarabon."
Moiraine is deadpan serious that she will see Thom again, even BEFORE going to Rhuidean and seeing her futures. Why is that? Tarabon is a mess of danger, that people have been telling Nynaeve and Elayne about and war and strife are shooting up all over the place and simple chance permits that Moiraine might not see Thom again.... yet she is certain of it. ***
Even if she is a spirit, she can still see Thom. I don't see how this argues for or against the theory.
How interesting with the above evidence, isn't it?
**Exactly. Plus, Moiraine really hasn't done enough to get a position as a Hero of the Horn.**
Again, your opinion.
Callandor, I am grateful that you took the time to respond to my theory. I always appreciate your quotes and insights. I am not saying that this theory is what has to happen, just that it fits with the little that we know for sure. Since we don't know for sure the status of Moraine we all try and fit the facts to what we would like to have happen. I have tried to answer your above comments with reason and facts. Let me know what you think.
Father Time,
-isn't it about time?
Frenzy: 2004-10-07
**But Lanfear did not die; she was held by the Aelfinn and Eelfinn. If she didn't die, why assume that Moiraine did?**
Big assumption there, Callandor. If Lanfear didn't die as a fesult of her Aelfinn/Eelfinn incarceration, why is she in a new body?
**Kari in The Eye of the World was an illusion in Tel'aran'rhiod made by Ishamael to try to turn Rand over to the Dark. It failed. Kari is dead, her soul is beyond reach.**
Another big assumption, Callandor. That's Rand's interpretation, it may not be the correct one.
**the Dark One is the Lord of The Grave In name; not practice. A name put to him by HUMANS. **
So is “Dark One.” Are you also implying that he may not be Dark, since that name was given to him by Humans?
**Min Farshaw is never, absolutely positively, NEVER EVER wrong with her viewings. RJ has confirmed this, and if you have read through Crossroads of Twilight and still don't believe it, you're severely messed up. Moiraine is the only viewing of hers to fail. Since we know Min's viewings are never wrong, it has to be fulfilled ~eventually~. Hence, Moiraine's return. ***
That's another leap of logic. Min's viewing said that Rand needed help... from a woman who's now dead and gone. We've SEEN Moiraine helping Rand without being there already, in tGH in Falme. You're assuming that Moiraine HAS to return in the flesh to fulfill Min's viewing. Are you discounting the possibility that Min's viewing could be fulfilled by design, or by her returning as a ghost? And if so, I'd loooove to see that logic.
**Explain this: Wait, what? Moiraine is about to go and trash a Forsaken who can kill her in seconds through a doorway into another dimension, a fate which she saw the outcomes of in the Rings of Rhuidean and knew she had to do, and a fate of which nothing was shown afterwards for her, yet she has a small bubble of hope???**
Hope springs eternal, even in the most hopeless of situations. Rand KNOWS he's supposed to die in Tarmon Gai'don, he actually wants to die, but he still clings to life and living. Is he a fool, or just hopeful?
**Egwene's dream is important because it is Moiraine's jewel; not some random jewel. We all know Moiraine is out of commison and Thom did not pull her out of any fires after Egwene's dream -- odds are, not certainty though, that it will take place.**
You're again assuming that the only way to interpret this Dream is a physical rescue and/or a return to the living. That isn't the only option.
**Exactly. Plus, Moiraine really hasn't done enough to get a position as a Hero of the Horn.**
And who are you to judge? Do we have any evidence of anyone gaining that honor? Has what Hurin has done and earned Artur's encouraging words more significant than what Moiraine has done?
Callandor: 2004-10-08
** **But Lanfear did not die; she was held by the Aelfinn and Eelfinn. If she didn't die, why assume that Moiraine did?**
Big assumption there, Callandor. If Lanfear didn't die as a result of her Aelfinn/Eelfinn incarceration, why is she in a new body?**
Assumption? Oh, no, no, no dear Frenzy; you know the quote as well as I do, and you know exactly that Lanfear makes no mention whatsoever to having died, and that is something she might make note of if she died at the Finns hands, and then she thinks about them.
As for her body, you know that theory as well ;)
**Another big assumption, Callandor. That's Rand's interpretation, it may not be the correct one.**
1. Ishamael is not the Dark One.
2. Where else are Rand and Ishamael, but Tel'aran'rhiod?
3. Illusions in Tel'aran'rhiod take on a life of their own -- see Elayne and Nynaeve being chased by the rhino/unicorn/whatever they created in Tel'aran'rhiod.
**So is “Dark One.” Are you also implying that he may not be Dark, since that name was given to him by Humans?**
Sure, maybe he's grey.
The Dark One is "Lord of the Grave" to his servents ONLY. That's it. Control over every soul is not his field, otherwise he would've won out a long time past.
**Are you discounting the possibility that Min's viewing could be fulfilled by design, or by her returning as a ghost?**
Frenzy, even you discount the possiblity of her returning as a ghost.
Moiraine's designs? What designs? What has she done that hasn't already been in effect?
**Hope springs eternal, even in the most hopeless of situations. Rand KNOWS he's supposed to die in Tarmon Gai'don, he actually wants to die, but he still clings to life and living. Is he a fool, or just hopeful?**
Hopeful, and a fool.
Moiraine's situation is also applicable if you look at it backwards.
If she is told she will do things in the future, for certainty, and then she sees futures were it is important that a situation comes up where it looks like she will die, don't you think she might doubt about her survival, and make it only a small bubble of hope?
**You're again assuming that the only way to interpret this Dream is a physical rescue and/or a return to the living. That isn't the only option.**
No, it's the most likely.
**And who are you to judge? Do we have any evidence of anyone gaining that honor? Has what Hurin has done and earned Artur's encouraging words more significant than what Moiraine has done?**
What has she done? She's done some great things alright, but what has she done?
She played caretaker to the Dragon Reborn in a naive state. The high point of her career, is defeating a Forsaken.
Whoopie. Compare to other known Heroes of the Horn, and it falls short (however, if she comes back... ;)).
Callandor: 2004-10-08
Forgot to add others:
**It is illogical to assume that the Finn could hold her but not kill her.**
Uhh, why? First rule of Finnland: you do not leave until you get your wishes.
**If Kari was an illusion created by Ishmael then why did she thank Rand after Rand ‘saved' her? Rand just happened to seamlessly take over Ishmael's illusion?**
No, it took a life of it's own. See exmaple:
**TITLE: Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 49 - To Boannda
Creating fantastical flowers or shapes by thinking of them was much more fun. The effort involved seemed related to both how large the thing was and whether it might really exist. Trees covered with wildly shaped blossoms in red and gold and purple were harder to make than a stand-mirror to examine what you had done to your dress, or what the other woman had done to it. A gleaming crystal palace rising out of the ground was harder still, and even if felt solid to the touch, it changed whenever the image in your mind wavered and vanished as soon as the image did. *They quietly decided to leave animals alone after a peculiar thing-much like a horse with a horn on its nose!-chased them both up a hill before they could make it vanish.* That very nearly sparked a new argument, with each of them claiming the other had made it, but by that time Elayne had recovered enough of her old self to start giggling over how they must have looked, racing up the hill with their skirts hauled up, shouting at the thing to go away. Even Elayne's stubborn refusal to admit it had been her fault could not stop Nynaeve's giggles from bubbling up, too.**
Once live things are created in Tel'aran'rhiod, they take a life of their own; why wouldn't the same thing apply to Kari?
**This is your opinion. Nice opinion but no facts to say that he is not and proof from the books to show that he has at least some control beyond the grave over spirits that have pledged themselves to him.**
And that's exactly the point: we've only seen him transmigrate people sworn to him.
Think:
If the Dark One can transmigrate everyone at anytime, why not capture Heroes souls and destroy them? Or transmigrate them and mindtrap them? Or turn them to the Dark?
Why not take all the channeling people's souls in all the world possible, and transmigrate and turn them to the Dark, and make an innumerable channeling army that can destroy the world?!
Oh, that's right, he hasn't. Why the hell not?
Simple: He can't!
**If I understand what you are saying, having an Aes Sedai go to another dimension is suppose to tear the bond between the Aes Sedai and her warder? I don't agree with this statement. See Verin in the Great Hunt. She takes a ~3 month trip by Portal Stone via other dimensions to Toman Head. We see her later with her warder Ihvon. No problems with the warder bond.
Also, look closely at the words that Lan uses at the docks when talking to Rand. Does this not imply that she is dead and he knows it?**
1. No, you are totally misreading me. Moiraine and Lanfear did not simply walk through the doorway. They were channeling large amounts of saidar and entered at the same time and caused the ter'angreal to destroy itself.
That's a big difference then simply walking into it.
2. Verin and co. did not go to other dimensions; they saw other possible lives. They did not enter into them, like entering into Finnland is.
3. No, Lan's statements are quite ambiguous. All Lan knows, is that Moiraine is "gone."
Sure she's gone, but not dead.
**I never state Moraine won't return, just that she will return as a spirit.**
Which is the most pathetic assertation I've heard.
**Small nitpick. She did see ‘perhaps one small thing' that doesn't concern Rand after her trip through the doorway with Lanfear.**
Not a nitpick; the matter does not have to be from the Rhuidean doorways at all. It can be from Min's viewing ;)
**Since all other outcomes at the battle of the docks apparently had the Dark One winning I think that the bubble of hope she had is explained by her hope of the outcome of the battle being in Rand's favor, not that she would live.**
Bull. Moiraine KNEW the two outcomes if she did not do what she did.
1. Rand was killed.
2. Lews Therin took over Rand.
The third outcome is the one that happened: Moiraine took Lanfear through the doorway.
**A role for Thom is not ruled out in the scenario I eluded to. If Moraine is a spirit but trapped in Randland then she will need rescuing.**
Spirit trapped in Randland? The only spirit trapped was Padan Fain, and Moiraine is anything but him or the same situations.
**Even if she is a spirit, she can still see Thom. I don't see how this argues for or against the theory.**
Uh huh... and what souls have been appearing in Randland have taken any involvement in actions at all? As far as I know, they don't react to anything; not a damn thing.
** I am not saying that this theory is what has to happen, just that it fits with the little that we know for sure.**
It really doesn't.
Jumai: 2004-10-08
I've always taken offense when the Lanfear quote about being held by the finns is used as some sort of proof she did not die while held. It leaves both possibilities wide open, and her dying at the end of her captivity explains more than the alternative does.
Frenzy: 2004-10-08
(isn't this fun, Callandor?)
(oh, and thank you Jumai. You said it better than i have been)
**Assumption? Oh, no, no, no dear Frenzy; you know the quote as well as I do, and you know exactly that Lanfear makes no mention whatsoever to having died, and that is something she might make note of if she died at the Finns hands, and then she thinks about them. As for her body, you know that theory as well ;)**
The Quote is “She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her!” That in no way covers the time between the end of her Aelfinn incarceration and her appearance as Cyndane. I have no idea what theory you're talking about in regards to her body, but if it's the Ber is Moi theory I'm going to be ~really~ disappointed in you. ;)
***1. Ishamael is not the Dark One. 2. Where else are Rand and Ishamael, but Tel'aran'rhiod? 3. Illusions in Tel'aran'rhiod take on a life of their own -- see Elayne and Nynaeve being chased by the rhino/unicorn/whatever they created in Tel'aran'rhiod. ... Once live things are created in Tel'aran'rhiod, they take a life of their own; why wouldn't the same thing apply to Kari? ***
So you are saying that Ishamael ~lost control~ of his illusion and it took on a life of its own? When a half-trained novice like Egwene kept an illusion of Bela under complete control in her ride to Salidar? An illusion, it may be salient to point out, is based on her firsthand knowledge of Bela.
***Frenzy, even you discount the possiblity of her returning as a ghost.***
No, I want her to remain dead and gone. But if she ~has~ to come back I'd rather Jordan use hack writing like Lucas from Empire than use hack writing like every idiot who's written for Marvel in the last thirty years.
***Moiraine's designs? What designs? What has she done that hasn't already been in effect?***
Who do you think put the Dragon Banner in Rand's pack? That action didn't bear fruit for months—months Moiraine was not with Rand. That's the precedent.
***If she is told she will do things in the future, for certainty, and then she sees futures were it is important that a situation comes up where it looks like she will die, don't you think she might doubt about her survival, and make it only a small bubble of hope?***
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're saying that because Moiraine has a small bubble of hope that she doesn't know for certain that she'll die while fighting Lanfear, and therefore she didn't die. Is that like when someone jumps out of a plane and their parachute fails, and them knowing that some people have survived sudden deceleration syndrome, therefore they will survive? You try it first, then let me know. ;)
***Whoopie. Compare to other known Heroes of the Horn, and it falls short (however, if she comes back... ;)).***
I'm sure being rescued like some hapless damsel in distress qualifies for Herodom. And if you're referring to the heroic deeds she'd do once she came back, I'll refer you back to your evidence hole between Aelfinn and Cyndane.
***And that's exactly the point: we've only seen him transmigrate people sworn to him. ***
Yes, but Kari wasn't transmigrated. She was just there in tel'aran'rhiod. And I know you can't be suggesting that Ishamael can only pull in people who are sworn to the Shadow, because I know you've read EotW.
**I never state Moraine won't return, just that she will return as a spirit.** Which is the most pathetic assertation I've heard.
You must not have read Ber is Moi then. ;)
***Uh huh... and what souls have been appearing in Randland have taken any involvement in actions at all? As far as I know, they don't react to anything; not a damn thing.***
Hello??? Birgitte, anyone???
Father Time: 2004-10-08
Re: Coming soon, the Lady in Blue...
Callandor, thanks for the feedback. Please consider...
**Uhh, why? First rule of Finnland: you do not leave until you get your wishes. **
I was not aware that this was a rule in Finnland. Once you attest that you abide by the ‘agreement' and are taken before the Finns by your guide, yes. Just because you step inside the doorway? No. Remember, Mat was tempted to leave before his guide appeared and there appeared to be nothing stopping him.
Also, two people in the middle of a fight using the one power can hardly be said to be abiding by the agreement so the usual rules of Finnland as we know them would not apply.
**No, it took a life of it's own. See exmaple...
Once live things are created in Tel'aran'rhiod, they take a life of their own; why wouldn't the same thing apply to Kari? **
Nice example. Do all things that take a life of their own decide to end it like Kari supposedly did? It didn't happen in the example so I am at a loss to say that the example really applies to this situation. (Hmm... a life of its own with a suicidal bent. I will have to consider that. Maybe your line of reasoning is not really applicable here.)
**And that's exactly the point: we've only seen him transmigrate people sworn to him.
Think...**
Nice points. Let us think if there is any reason why he would not do this. (1) It takes effort on his part to transmigrate souls. (2) His goal is not to destroy the world but to break the wheel of time and that those two acts are not the same thing (think Rand, Hurin and Co. in the mirror world. Dark One not free and it appeared that everyone was dead).
**1. No, you are totally misreading me. Moiraine and Lanfear did not simply walk through the doorway. They were channeling large amounts of saidar and entered at the same time and caused the ter'angreal to destroy itself.
That's a big difference then simply walking into it. **
So the channeling caused the doorway to melt. Big deal. The doorway acted like a gateway to another dimension. Rand uses a gateway to another dimension all the time (world of dreams) and we don't see any harm to his warder bond(s).
**2. Verin and co. did not go to other dimensions; they saw other possible lives. They did not enter into them, like entering into Finnland is. **
So Verin and Co. only went “mentally” to other dimensions/possible timelines while their bodies were transported instantaneously to Toman Head. O.K. That still leaves Verin's warder without his bond holder for months without any apparent snapping or altering of the bond. This would suggest that the Aes Sedai does not need to be in the present dimension in order for the warder bond to still hold so Moraine going to a different dimension with or without a way back would not affect the warder bond. Only stilling or death would. Sorry, can't blame the melting doorway for the bond snapping. (Maybe you could argue that the destruction of a ter'angreal snapped the bond? Just trying to help.)
**Sure she's gone, but not dead. **
Possibly, possibly not.
****I never state Moraine won't return, just that she will return as a spirit.**
Which is the most pathetic assertation I've heard. **
Now you know how I feel about some of your blind assertions where you take what you want to have happen and disregard any other possible outcome.
**Not a nitpick; the matter does not have to be from the Rhuidean doorways at all. It can be from Min's viewing ;) **
Does it matter where it is from? This part of our dispute is only relevant in that it states that Moraine will be mentioned or have some part in the remaining books. It doesn't state the type of part she will play or what physical and/or spiritual state she will be in.
****Since all other outcomes at the battle of the docks apparently had the Dark One winning I think that the bubble of hope she had is explained by her hope of the outcome of the battle being in Rand's favor, not that she would live.**
Bull. Moiraine KNEW the two outcomes if she did not do what she did. 1. Rand was killed. 2. Lews Therin took over Rand. The third outcome is the one that happened: Moiraine took Lanfear through the doorway. **
To know what can happen does not mean it will happen. It is specifically stated that one mind cannot retain all of what it sees in the ring ter'angreal in Rhuidean. She could not possibly have remembered every single nuance of the fight at the docks and so some uncertainty of the outcome would have remained even until the end. Even if she did ‘KNOW' for certain it does not mean that she couldn't have hope for the outcome anyway.
**Spirit trapped in Randland? The only spirit trapped was Padan Fain, and Moiraine is anything but him or the same situations.
Uh huh... and what souls have been appearing in Randland have taken any involvement in actions at all? As far as I know, they don't react to anything; not a damn thing. **
Perhaps I did not make this clear. I consider the “ghosts” we say in CoT to be “trapped.” They have not moved on in their eternal progression/recycling (whatever the process actually is). It is possible that matters will progress and we will see more spirits and that the spirits wills tart interacting with those still in their mortal coil.
**** I am not saying that this theory is what has to happen, just that it fits with the little that we know for sure.** It really doesn't.
“Apparently” not. But then Moraine is “apparently” dead isn't she?
Father Time,
-isn't it about time?
clarkkd: 2004-10-08
I had thought that becuase they used a greate deal of the one power that the stilled themselves on the way through (this would start to explain why Cyn is no as strong as Lanfear)
Callandor: 2004-10-08
**It leaves both possibilities wide open, and her dying at the end of her captivity explains more than the alternative does.**
Sure, it explains it wonderfully, if she did die after being held....
Except for one thing:
Why is it just "held" and not "held and killed"? Since it is Lanfear's POV, you would think that if the outcome of her death was so prevelent from the Finn, she would make note of it (after all, Moridin did while thinking about Sha'rah).
**I have no idea what theory you're talking about in regards to her body, but if it's the Ber is Moi theory I'm going to be ~really~ disappointed in you. ;)**
Lanfear was Artifically Enhanced. And I thought you knew everything ;)
Woof :P
**So you are saying that Ishamael ~lost control~ of his illusion and it took on a life of its own? When a half-trained novice like Egwene kept an illusion of Bela under complete control in her ride to Salidar? An illusion, it may be salient to point out, is based on her firsthand knowledge of Bela.**
And Ishamael had first hand knowledge fo Kari to control the illusion?
**Who do you think put the Dragon Banner in Rand's pack? That action didn't bear fruit for months—months Moiraine was not with Rand. That's the precedent.**
Fulfilled. And you missed the point. What designs would still be in effect, that Moiraine intended, and have not already been fulfilled, and is directly related to Rand's success at the Last Battle (I can think of one, but it does not involve Rand ;)).
**Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're saying that because Moiraine has a small bubble of hope that she doesn't know for certain that she'll die while fighting Lanfear, and therefore she didn't die.**
No, Moiraine did not die, because Lanfear did not die ;)
Because Moiraine has a small bubble of hope of surviving what to everyone is a death case scenario, including herself by the way she supressed it, it makes it strange why she would even think she had hope in the first place.
**I'm sure being rescued like some hapless damsel in distress qualifies for Herodom. And if you're referring to the heroic deeds she'd do once she came back, I'll refer you back to your evidence hole between Aelfinn and Cyndane.**
Which is what? And no, being rescued isn't the thing that will add her to the Horn; I personally don't think she will be.
**Yes, but Kari wasn't transmigrated. She was just there in tel'aran'rhiod. And I know you can't be suggesting that Ishamael can only pull in people who are sworn to the Shadow, because I know you've read EotW.**
So lets go back to the facts that we have.
1. The Dark One has only transmigrated Forsaken (specifically, male Forsaken, but that's a useless specialization).
2. The only souls the Dark One has shown control over, are the Forsaken he has transmigrated.
3. Ishamael was in Tel'aran'rhiod with Rand.
4. Ishamael is not the Dark One.
Now what fits better? Ishamael, a powerful Forsaken for sure (however he seems to have been working under limitations then), was somehow able to get control from the Dark One. or magically through him or however you wish to put it, to control a non-sworn soul.
Or, the entire thing was yet another falsehood, an illusion, aimed at getting Rand al'Thor to swear to the Shadow?
Hmm.....
**You must not have read Ber is Moi then. ;)**
That's humorous, not pathetic.
**Hello??? Birgitte, anyone???**
But Birgitte has a body; not just a wondering spirit.
**Just because you step inside the doorway? No.**
Wrong.
**TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 6 - Doorways
The Aes Sedai winced and threw up her hands. "You three rush in blindly where Lan and a hundred Warders would tread warily. Why do you think I have not stepped through? Days ago I could have asked what Rand must do to survive and triumph, how he can defeat the Forsaken and the Dark One, how he can learn to control the Power and hold off madness long enough to do what he must." She waited, hands on hips, while it sank in. None of them spoke. "There are rules," she went on, "and dangers. No one may step through more than once. Only once. *You may ask three questions, but you must ask all three and hear the answers before you may leave.* Frivolous questions are punished, it seems, but it also seems what may be serious for one can be frivolous coming from another. Most importantly, questions touching the Shadow have dire consequences.**
Once in, you go to the Finn and ask; you cannot leave until you do ask.
Plus, if you just came in, then left, it wastes your opprotunity, and I think would more or less piss the Finn off for teasing them with food almost.
"Want my memories?" ~Steps in~ "Come get em!" ~Steps out~
Once in, you are in there till you ask and hear; then, you mean leave.
**Also, two people in the middle of a fight using the one power can hardly be said to be abiding by the agreement so the usual rules of Finnland as we know them would not apply.**
Why? Odds are when you go into Finnland (based off of Rand, Mat, and Moiraine being in the Aelfinn doorway), everyone is seperated. Once in, the fight stops.
**Do all things that take a life of their own decide to end it like Kari supposedly did?**
Decide to end? Where is that evident?
**(1) It takes effort on his part to transmigrate souls.**
It obviously does, but if he could do it to anyone, he would have an assembly line set up to capture everyone he could.
**(2) His goal is not to destroy the world but to break the wheel of time and that those two acts are not the same thing**
With everyone turned to the Shadow, it WOULDN'T be easier to break the Wheel? With the Heroes out of commison, and unable to correct the Pattern, it WOULDN'T be easier?
**(think Rand, Hurin and Co. in the mirror world. Dark One not free and it appeared that everyone was dead).**
Appears is a big factor there; no one lives in the Blight, partly because of the climate, but also because of the free reign of the Shadow.
**So the channeling caused the doorway to melt. Big deal.**
It's a big damn deal! The one way enterence into Eelfinn land, an entire other dimension, is totally gone. Put your finger between a doorframe and slam the door shut.
Try to tell me your finger being smashed or removed, is not a big deal.
**This would suggest that the Aes Sedai does not need to be in the present dimension in order for the warder bond to still hold so Moraine going to a different dimension with or without a way back would not affect the warder bond.**
Once again, they--did--not--enter--any--dimensions.
That's like saying Rand seeing the Aiel history in Rhuidean is him in another dimension. He isn't; he's in the real world, experiencing new memories.
**Now you know how I feel about some of your blind assertions where you take what you want to have happen and disregard any other possible outcome.**
Blind?
**Does it matter where it is from?**
Yes, it does.
** It doesn't state the type of part she will play or what physical and/or spiritual state she will be in.**
Yes, it does. She is to play a critical part (after all, without her, Rand fails...).
**To know what can happen does not mean it will happen.**
LOL!
Have you read these books? Really.
**It is specifically stated that one mind cannot retain all of what it sees in the ring ter'angreal in Rhuidean. She could not possibly have remembered every single nuance of the fight at the docks and so some uncertainty of the outcome would have remained even until the end. Even if she did ‘KNOW' for certain it does not mean that she couldn't have hope for the outcome anyway.**
Yes, it is stated that no one can remember everything from the Rings, but read the quote again:
**TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 23 - Beyond the Stone
"In Rhuidean," Amys said, "you will find three rings, arranged so." She drew three lines in the air, joining together in the middle. "Step through any one. You will see your future laid before you, again and again, in variation. *They will not guide you wholly, as is best, for they will fade together as do stories heard long ago, ~yet you will remember enough to know some things that must be~, for you, despised as they may be, and some that must not, cherished hopes that they are.* This is the beginning of being called wise. Some women never return from the rings; perhaps they could not face the future. Some who survive the rings do not survive their second trip to Rhuidean, to the heart. You are not giving up a hard and dangerous life for a softer, but for a harder and more dangerous."**
Sections, are prevelent enough to be retained, the ones that show you it must be this way.
Two perfect examples:
1. Aviendha falling in love with Rand -- she tried to avoid it; couldn't.
2. Aviendha saw in the rings that going to the Cleansing would have dire consequences -- she took the smart path and avoided it.
Hmm... could it be the fight at the docks that Moiraine tells Rand she knew would take place, the event she planned to happen exactly so, even though it most likely meant her death, was one of the secions that stood out????
Cor Shan: 2004-10-08
()]
Finnland is a bit more of an alternate demension than TAR is, plus you ignore the fact that the ONLY gateway was destroyed. TAR is easy to leave, unless you got stilled in there.
[()
Now you know how I feel about some of your blind assertions where you take what you want to have happen and disregard any other possible outcome.
()]
Callandor has been arguing on this site for a long time. I think its fair to assert that he has not only read the series more, but he has also read all the interviews, so his fact base will be a bit thicker than yours.
[()
**Spirit trapped in Randland? The only spirit trapped was Padan Fain, and Moiraine is anything but him or the same situations.
Uh huh... and what souls have been appearing in Randland have taken any involvement in actions at all? As far as I know, they don't react to anything; not a damn thing. **
Perhaps I did not make this clear. I consider the “ghosts” we say in CoT to be “trapped.” They have not moved on in their eternal progression/recycling (whatever the process actually is). It is possible that matters will progress and we will see more spirits and that the spirits will start interacting with those still in their mortal coil.
()]
Fine, but DONT make a GUESS the main point of your argument.
Aiel Finn: 2004-10-20
I may be wrong, but didn't Ewgene take the real Bela into T'A'R with her? This would make it a real creature, not her creation. Also, what if Rand took control of the Kari construct and made it disappear.
OKflyboy: 2004-10-24
**I may be wrong, but didn't Ewgene take the real Bela into T'A'R with her? This would make it a real creature, not her creation. Also, what if Rand took control of the Kari construct and made it disappear. **
No, she created a Bela "replica". The real Bela was already in Salidar, having been ridden there by Suiane in the flight from Tar Valon.
Malkier: 2004-10-26
***So the channeling caused the doorway to melt. Big deal. The doorway acted like a gateway to another dimension. Rand uses a gateway to another dimension all the time (world of dreams) and we don't see any harm to his warder bond(s).***
First, it was never my personal assumption that it was the channeling the causes the lightning/melting of the door. I believed it to be the angreal that Lanfear had in her hand. If you remember when Egwene goes to do her test for Accepted, she has that angreal in her clothes near the door way. Just it being that close to the door way causes it to "resonate" and it was difficult for her to get back. I imagine the angreal actually entering the doorway would have the effects we see with Lanfear/ Moraine.
***So Verin and Co. only went “mentally” to other dimensions/possible timelines while their bodies were transported instantaneously to Toman Head. O.K. That still leaves Verin's warder without his bond holder for months without any apparent snapping or altering of the bond. This would suggest that the Aes Sedai does not need to be in the present dimension in order for the warder bond to still hold so Moraine going to a different dimension with or without a way back would not affect the warder bond. Only stilling or death would. Sorry, can't blame the melting doorway for the bond snapping. (Maybe you could argue that the destruction of a ter'angreal snapped the bond? Just trying to help.)***
The stones are a "reflection" of the real world. Recall that the thief catcher was still able to stiff out Fains party. Where the Aelfin and Eelfin is a completely different world.
Jane-Sedai: 2004-10-29
*I do not believe Moraine will be one of the heros to return to the horn, if this was so she would wait in Tel'aran'rhiod as Bridget once did.
*What was Min's viewing of Moraine?
*Also if Moraine knows the face of her husband who says it was to be her future husband, she has an unclear past, perhaps she has been married at some stage?
*I think Moraine will not return as this is to easy, Mins viewing may be fufilled through an result of something Moraine did to help Rand.
Father Time: 2004-10-29
Malkier,
As for the door melting, it is the assumption made by most people that a fight between Moraine and Lanfear on the other side of the doorway involving channelling is what caused the melting of the doorway.
That being said, I agree with you that resonance between two like ter'angreal would be a better cause for the melting of the doorway. The only problem with that is the relatively unknown nature of the ter'angreal/angreal involved (we know that the bracelet is an angreal but it has the funny designs on it that might be sadistic in nature, implying it is a "bad" angreal, the doorway ter'angreal is a doorway to the "foxes" (not in a goodlooking sense) dimension but any other characteristics are unknown. One thing against this theory is that we don't know if Rand took his angreal into the doorway in Tear. If he did then it is evidence against the possibility of resonance, unless the angreal has to be in use to cause resonance).
As to your second point, I was using the Verin and the Portal Stone argument to show that even instantaneous transport through time did not severe the warder bond. The warder bond is tough. It is stated several times that only death or stilling can severe it. This is why it is highly unlikely that the melting of the doorway snapped the bond. It is possible that the melting of the doorway stilled Moraine and Lanfear (though why it didn't effect anyone on the docks would be a mystery) and that would cause the snapping of the bond but I could find no support of why it would still them and not anyone on the docks so I did not include this point previously.
So, in short, yes the stones are a "reflection" of the real world but the transport of Verin and Co. is supposed to be near instantaneous (notice her trying to complete a sentence during the whole ordeal). Callandor argued that going to another dimension would snap the warder bond. I used the Verin/Portal Stone incident to show it didn't. Your argument of the Portal Stones taking the Co. to "reflections" is a good one but my rebuttal is the same as before, the transport was near instantaneous so it still leaves Thomas, Verin's warder, without his Aes Sedai for ~3 months or so without snapping the warder bond. I.e., only death or stilling can snap the warder bond so it makes sense to say that Moraine either died or was stilled. Considering the evidence presented earlier, I claim that it is reasonable that both Lanfear and Moraine were killed.
Personally, I hope that another trip to see the Finns is in the upcoming bookes but in the least Moraine is stilled.
Addressing Jane-Sedai's comments/questions:
We have no evidence one way or the other if Moraine is tied to the horn.
We do not know Min's viewing of Moraine. We do know that Min has stated that the viewing is the only one of her's that she believes has failed. She later mentions that Rand will fail without someone who is dead and gone. Most people assume these are in reference to the same viewing and I agree with that interpretation.
All of Min's viewings are related to the future if I remember correctly so if Moraine knows the face of her future husband due to one of Min's viewings then it would have to take place after The Eye of The World. It is never stated in the books that Min had such a viewing. Most of the evidence for this is some people's interpretation of one of Moraine's comments coupled with one of Min's comments. Possible forshadowing but not definitive.
Moraine returning is too easy? Perhaps. Until we know more about Min's viewing concerning Rand failing without the help of someone who is dead and gone and what viewing she had of Moraine that failed we wont be able to say for certain.
As an aside, wouldn't it be neat to have Min go through one of the doorways and take a look at the Finn's?
Callandor: 2004-10-29
***What was Min's viewing of Moraine?**
Don't know yet; it was off stage.
*Also if Moraine knows the face of her husband who says it was to be her future husband, she has an unclear past, perhaps she has been married at some stage**
Her history is actually pretty well set. She was born and raised in Cairhien in the palace, and then went to the White Tower to become an Aes Sedai. She has never even so much as hinted at a past marriage, and when has she had the time? She's dedicated her entire life to finding Rand and helping him.
***I think Moraine will not return as this is to easy, Mins viewing may be fufilled through an result of something Moraine did to help Rand.**
Like what? Everything she has done, has already come to pass, except for the information she gave Thom.
**As for the door melting, it is the assumption made by most people that a fight between Moraine and Lanfear on the other side of the doorway involving channelling is what caused the melting of the doorway.**
What? Go to the Wheel of Time FAQ to find this:
**Paul Ward received a letter from RJ in March 2000 in which RJ said (answering a question about why the Fox doorway melted in TFOH): "When Moiraine and Lanfear went through the ter'angreal, it burned in part because both were channeling, and the world on the other side of the doorway has a radically different set of natural laws. The odd optical effects witnessed in that other world are not artificially produced artifacts."**
Where's the big channeling battle?
**It is possible that the melting of the doorway stilled Moraine and Lanfear (though why it didn't effect anyone on the docks would be a mystery) and that would cause the snapping of the bond but I could find no support of why it would still them and not anyone on the docks so I did not include this point previously.**
Not that I believe it happened, but maybe because they went through the doorway, it could've stilled just them??
**So, in short, yes the stones are a "reflection" of the real world but the transport of Verin and Co. is supposed to be near instantaneous (notice her trying to complete a sentence during the whole ordeal). Callandor argued that going to another dimension would snap the warder bond. I used the Verin/Portal Stone incident to show it didn't.**
1. No, I did not argue that going to another dimension snaps the bond; we've seen that it doesn't with the Tear doorway.
I argue that having the exit to that dimension destyroyed, does.
2. Once again, Verin and co. DID NOT TRAVEL TO ANOTHER DIMENSION. Nor were they trapped there.
**All of Min's viewings are related to the future if I remember correctly so if Moraine knows the face of her future husband due to one of Min's viewings then it would have to take place after The Eye of The World. It is never stated in the books that Min had such a viewing. Most of the evidence for this is some people's interpretation of one of Moraine's comments coupled with one of Min's comments. Possible forshadowing but not definitive.**
That's like saying, by detecting a black hole's gravity, it is not there because we cannot "see" it.
Min's viewings are all about the future, but she sees able to determine certain characteristics from people's past (IE: Lan's broken towers and baby with sword (even with Lan marrying Nynaeve, it's unlikely they are in their future), Taim having blood in his past (as well as his future), and Daved Hanlon having more rapes and deaths in his future (the "more" shows that she knows he has rapes and murders in his past, and she had never met Hanlon before)).
MeroTZ: 2004-10-30
ok, been reading for a while without responding... but this bugged me enough to respond.
Everyone seems to assume that Moraine and Lanfear were severed as they went through the redstone doorway.
There is no evidence of this whatsoever.
Lanfear is weaker now than before, but not enough so to account for being healed from stilling. This is basedon the fact that both Siuann and Leanne are -proportionally- weaker than before.. I believe at one point one of them remarks that they are less than half of what they were before. Therefore, if Lanfear were stilled, she should be MUCH weaker than she is now.
And if she was not stilled, why should Moraine be stilled? (or dead).
Also, while I'm at it, I'd better say that while I really do wish Moraine would come back, she doesn't have to. We dont know what she used her wishes on: In fact, as selfless as she was, she could have used them all to help Rand, no matter the cost to herself. And Min's viewing could refer to some yet unforseen consequence of one of Moraine's requests.
Toni-Sedai: 2004-10-31
Thanks father time, but some of min's viewings are about the past, and I think the fact that we know so little of Morraine opens up an opportunity for Robert Jordan to write the prequels and throw a few suprises into them, though guessing/predicting is probably what makes the series exciting.
Also a few people mention lanfear being cyndane and that maybe it is not her cause she is weaker in the power.. if she had been stilled through the gateway and later healed, the result would mean that she is weaker in the power.
NargsBrood: 2004-11-04
The doorways were probably melted as a result of the angreal being used near them. 2 people inside the portal do not see eachother. Rand/Mat/Moi dont see eachother when in stone. They did not battle it out on the other side of the ter'angreal and most likely didnt see eachother.
Saldean Farm Boy: 2004-11-04
Why couldn't Min's viewing just represent Thom picking up Moraine's life long cause? Protecting Rand and making sure he reaches the last battle represents Moraine as much as anything. Also Thom and Moraine being as good as they are/were at the game of houses, maybe Thom will just ressurect her name making people think she is back to accomplish political victories for Rand. We have seen him do this in the past.
fistandantilus: 2004-11-05
They didn't enter at the same time, though. If Lanfear and moiraine were in direct physical contact, chances are they ended up at the same place at the same time.
Lauric: 2005-10-06
1. Per RJ interview, *Finnland is a parrallel world, not a mirror such as TAR and the portal stone worlds.
This being the case, the connection between the two parallel worlds being severed is as likely to have broken the bond as anything else.
2. Moiraine grasping the one power before jumping into Lanfear could have been so she could transfer the bond thinking she was going to die. I have no proof on this, just a thought that came to me right now so i'll have to look into it, but I can't see why else she would have done so.
3. The Angrael bracelet was not the cause for the door melting. Reread Egwene's accepted test, it's specifically stated that two ter'angreal **with similar properties** cause resonance. An Angreal and the Ter'Angreal doorway would not react. It was most likely the channeling that caused the melting (possibly something Lanfear did to try and avoid going through..Possibly).
4. Cyndane's ability to channel can also be explained by an RJ interview answer. He said that the ability to channel, as well as whether it channels saidin/saidar, is dependant on the soul. The strength of said channeling ability is in the body.
5. If, BIG if here, Moiraine is not dead, then she is not the one who is "dead and gone". I'll repeat, IS dead and gone, not thought dead and gone.
6. Moiraine's exact words were that she knows better than they (Supergirls) the face of the man she _will_ marry. No past tense, and by the three Oaths, stating a future occurence. (IMHO Min's Vision)
Thats list one, here's list two as to why I think Moi is coming back. A lot of this has been said before, but i'll repeat it for those who havn't seen.
1. The only way to beat Snakes and Foxes is to cheat.
2. "Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind" just fits too well with Thom.
Courage: What other Gleeman would fearlessly attack a Myrdraal with KNIVES.
Fire: Firestix Firestix Firestix.
Music: *blank stare*
Iron: Knives.
3. Thom's letter from Moiraine. Why havn't we seen what it says? RAFO
4. Egwene's vision in TaR.
5. I fail to accept "Lanfear died in Finnland therefore Moiraine did too". I will continue to not accept this until someone can give me even a half-proof that Lan died there. Don't give me this "That's how she became Cyndane" crap either, because theres just no proof, that's all speculation. It makes sense, i'll give you that. However....
6. Min's Vision!! How many times does Min say "When I see something and I know what it means, IT HAPPENS NO MATTER WHAT YOU TRY AND DO TO CHANGE IT". That coupled with Moi being her "only vision that ever failed".
Number 6 is my biggest argument and for the love of hell everyone pawns it off as not that important. Well, give me a good argument. And this ghost theory is just bunk, thats the SW fan in you talking, not the WoT fan. Thats not Jordan's style.
And there we have it.
**puts up Flame shield**
Ready when you are.
Daviain: 2005-10-06
**6. Min's Vision!! How many times does Min say "When I see something and I know what it means, IT HAPPENS NO MATTER WHAT YOU TRY AND DO TO CHANGE IT". That coupled with Moi being her "only vision that ever failed". **
Is there any evidence of one of Min's visions successfully coming true on someone who has been a victim of Balefire?
I have to think that Min's ability comes from the ability to see the pattern and if someone is a victim of balefire then their weave is removed from the pattern.
If Moraine was a victim of Balefire from Lanfear then without a previous vision of balefire coming true there is no proof that Min could not be wrong here.
However it should also be considered that Balefire may work differently in Finnland.
If this has been brought up before, my apologies.
Callandor: 2005-10-07
**4. Cyndane's ability to channel can also be explained by an RJ interview answer. He said that the ability to channel, as well as whether it channels saidin/saidar, is dependant on the soul. The strength of said channeling ability is in the body.**
Would you mind providing that quote?
**5. If, BIG if here, Moiraine is not dead, then she is not the one who is "dead and gone". I'll repeat, IS dead and gone, not thought dead and gone.**
Uh, it's not a big if. It's basically assured she's coming back. Plus, given that we know that Moiraine is almost for sure going to return, when everyone thinks she's dead could easily fulfill the vision of Min's. Anyway, who else would come close to doing so, if not Moiraine?
**Iron: Knives.**
Knifes are steel though.
Traveller: 2005-10-07
I am not sure if I think that Moiraine can be 'brought back' from the grave. I believe that there is freedom beyond, in that when people die, the DO can take their souls, but they can be freed to die in truth- when rand 'frees' Kari al'Thor a look of ecstasy goes across her face, and I presume that this is of being free of the DO to"die in truth/go to heaven/spread out into everything/be reborn" or whatever you believe people do when they die.
That is basically why I believe that Moiraine will not be brought back in this manner, but it is an interesting possibility.
silverwolf: 2005-10-08
Sigh.
When Min sees something, it happens. If I need to, I can repeat this a few times--RJ certainly has, both in and out of the series. Speculation as to the effects of balefire are only that--speculation. I do not believe it would have any effect--the pattern (and Min's ability) would still "know" the person had died.
All of the ghosts we have seen in the series have been oblivious to their surroundings and apparently benign; speculation that they might play a larger role is only that--speculation.
Moiraine and Lanfear entered the doorway at the same time, probably resulting in being in the same place in Finnland--yes, this is conjecture, but your clothes end up in the same place as you do, so anything else in direct contact with you should also end up in the same place. The doorway melted due to the reasons Callandor quoted from the FAQ. Period. If you don't like it, write a letter to RJ and complain.
The circumstances of the battle on the docks (concerning travel to other dimensions, that is) were a little different than any mentioned at any other point in the series. The other examples tend to focus on the worlds reached by portal stones and on TAR. First off, TAR is connected to the "real world"--it is sort of a backbone for the "real" world and all of the mirror worlds that exist, if I remember how Verin explained it in TDR correctly. Obviously the Warder bond doesn't snap there--it is very similar, both in it's nature and in it's dimensional location, if you will, to the "real" world. The portal-stone worlds are similar, if more distantly removed, and active connections between those worlds and the "real" world remained--the portal stones themselves. However, the sole physical connection to that other world in tFoH was snapped entirely, and the world of the Finns is dimensionally far seperated from our own, far enough to be considered an autonomous reality, as is indicated by the lack of normal rules of reality noticed by Matt. So, when that reality is completely seperated from ours, Moiraine appears (metaphysically as well as physically) to no longer exist--thus, the bond is snapped and Lan heads off to Myrelle. It should also be noted that based on Lan's comments, he never felt her die: "She is gone. I cannot feel her presence." (TFoH, "Fading Words," p. 895)
Another quote from that chapter comes to mind, and I don't know why I haven't seen it on any of these arguments before: Rand says "They are both gone. Lanfear is dead. And so is Moiraine." Amys, a dreamwalker, responds: "You are a fool, Rand al'Thor...About this and many other things, you are a fool." I've always interpreted this quote to mean that Amys is certain Moiraine is not dead.
And last but not least, it was Min's opinion that Moiraine is dead and gone, not a viewing; the viewing was only about Rand needing Moiraine, not about her being dead. Reread the chapter on that if you want to--I'm done with quotes for tonight and I'm headed to bed.
Callandor: 2005-10-08
**If Moraine was a victim of Balefire from Lanfear then without a previous vision of balefire coming true there is no proof that Min could not be wrong here.**
1. It depends on Min's viewing and the context of it, which we do not know.
2. That being said, I would say no -- RJ has said explicitly that Min is never wrong on her viewings. It's not that Min's viewing has failed, it's that she believes it can't come true now (basically breaking her own rules of trusting her viewings completely).
**I believe that there is freedom beyond, in that when people die, the DO can take their souls, but they can be freed to die in truth- when rand 'frees' Kari al'Thor a look of ecstasy goes across her face, and I presume that this is of being free of the DO to"die in truth/go to heaven/spread out into everything/be reborn" or whatever you believe people do when they die.**
The Dark One does not control the grave. If he did, he would've taken control of all the Heroes of the Horn, or at he very least, the Dragon soul, and would've won already. He can only bring back those who have sworn to him.
Kari is nothing more than an Illusion of tel'aran'rhiod made by Ishamael.
**And last but not least, it was Min's opinion that Moiraine is dead and gone, not a viewing; the viewing was only about Rand needing Moiraine, not about her being dead. Reread the chapter on that if you want to--I'm done with quotes for tonight and I'm headed to bed.**
It very well could be, but we don't have the exact context of Min's viewing on whether it was just specifically "Moiraine" or if it truely was a "woman who was dead and gone." That being said, yes, it does make the most sense.