1
Tamyrlin: 2003-01-12
I didn't consider that prophecy and discussion with the walking dead but you may be right that something Rand has to do deals with the walking dead. Maybe Rand heals death somehow through his death. Everyone seems to believe that Nynaeve will be involved and I would lean that way, but as you pointed out, maybe it will be Flinn since the ter'angreal access points to the sa'angreal for females have been destroyed if I am not mistaken. Good thought.
2
Darren: 2003-01-13
I think it pretty much has to be a woman that will heal Rand/resurrect him, unless it's the Creator (which I more than doubt.) I'm not using logic or clues for this, just going by RJ's continuing obsession with symmetry. Rand as a male must be healed by a woman. There's precedent for it in how Logain seemed to gain strength in the power through Nyn's healing of his severing, and Siuan and Leane lost it... It would be interesting to see how strong the Aes Sedai that Flinn healed are.
Which is not to say that Nynaeve (or other) might not be linked to a male Channeler when performing the feat, just that it will be a woman guiding the flows.
PS... I don't see how eliminating the taint has removed the buffer problem in Callandor. The "buffer error" only meant that the user of the sword might easily draw too much OP and burn out or kill themselves. That's still a likely possibility.
3
Tigraine: 2003-01-15
Just a quick note, but the female Choeden Kal is not worthless now. Far from it. The only problem is that the only -known- access key has been destroyed. However, remember that Asmodean is surprised when Rand reveals not only his male ter'angreal access key, but the female counterpart as soon as Lanfear leaves Rhuidean at the end of tSR. He says something to the effect of "she would kill you if she knew you had one of the access KEYS" (emphasis my own).
This means that there may be other ways to access it through ter'angreal, not to mention the old-fashioned way of 'embracing through the object' that everyone else uses.
And don't forget... Alviarin had just returned from -TREMALKING!- in CoT. What's in Tremalking? The female statue.
4
Kirrath: 2003-01-15
Worthy points all, just a few responses.
Tamyrlin: Rand healing death would be an interesting tie-in to Jordan's whole "Rand as Christ figure" theme. Only point I would add that I hadn't thought of before is that all (most) the dead who are walking around now seem to have died either violently or their deaths were unresolved for some reason. Note: this could also include Moiraine.
Darren: I don't remember much of the control politics in links past 13, but aren't men supposed to have control most of the time? Also, the buffer Cadsuane referred to was against the Taint. Remember, it magnified the effects of the Taint, as was evidenced by Rand's psychotic lightning-spree during the Seanchan campaign in Illian.
Tigraine: Thanks for catching my error. I can see why Alviarin went to Tremalking to try and find another key, but I don't know if Jordan would simply throw another one in there. Granted, it me be a different type of key with different abilities/defects, or it could just be a regular key that Jordan is giving to the Dark (Shaidar Haran's mark on Alvi sure seems to say that she'll be important later on). Perhaps Egwene, after waking in the Tower, will go through some sort of quest or something to steal the key back from Alvi. Maybe with some unintentional help from Elaida?
5
dionysus: 2003-01-15
Moiraines still alive Moraines still alive Moraines still alive...
Okay, that's out of my system...
We actually did see one broken female key -- chodenwhatever -- in Rhuidean next to the male, so it might seem that the female one breaks every time. That brings up an interesting question that may be worth of its own thread: Why does the female break but the male survive?
Good points on the "bubbles of evil." I especially like the contrast of the previous being bubbles and this being a fog... it follows well with RJ's descriptions of the bubbles as miasmas.
I personally think the dead walking are reflections from other "possibilities." We are seeing a reflection of what it would be like if they were still alive, maybe.
Oh, and a comment to the original post: "the buffer flaw should not be a concern anymore with the Taint gone."
The buffer is important even on female angreals: it doesn't keep too much of the taint from coming in, it stops the channeler from drawing too much of the power and stilling him or herself. Nynaeve, Elayne, et cetera talk often about how that is a temptation even when drawing without aid.
Okay, enough rambling for me.
6
Callandor: 2003-01-16
If I remember correctly the female access key was melted or something. But in Tanchico there is a shattered one but it is still distinguishable because Nyneave describes it PERFECTLY matching the one Rand got from Rhuidean.
So a question is would that work?
7
Anubis: 2003-01-19
The statue was really painfull to nynaeve when she touched it and moggy mentions it as being a trap for an unwary aes sedai so its pretty safe to assume noone is gonna be using it any time soon. Also the thingy on tremalking that was such a big deal is the time of illusions ending. This book contains many illusions dissappearing.
8
Callandor: 2003-01-19
The other access key in Tanchico is very interesting.
In TSR, Chapter 11, What Lies Hidden, page 209-210, Egwene is in Tanchico in TAR and she sees the broken access key. And when she grasps it shes says **As her hand grasped it, the Power surged within her, into the half-figure then back into her, into the figure and back, in and back. The crystal sphere flickered in fitfull, lurid flashes, and needles stabbed her brain with each flash. With a sob of agony, she loosed her hold and clasped both hands to her head.**
This is very interesting because of the **surge of the Power** that occured inside Egwene. So the statue still is connected and would work. However, due to the fact that the statue is broken it gives the stabs of needles in a womans head if she used it, and yes that is the cause its not a trap, on the same page a little furthur down Egwene theorizes that that is what caused her pain.
So this could help us or could do nothing. Major thing is what if Elayne got a hold of it? Could she do anything to make it work? Or even the one that got melted when the taint was clensed?
9
Tigraine: 2003-01-21
Good point, Callandor. Elayne can reproduce ter'angreal now, so who's to say that she can't reproduce one of these access keys for a future battle?
10
Anubis: 2003-01-22
Yes, but i think that the real question is "Is the big friggin statue still up and running?" In all honesty we dont really know. I sort of got the impression (never stated but kinda hinted at) that the large statue may have lost its globy arm as well, and that the orb rolling down the hillside may mark the begining of "the end of illusions"
11
jason wolfbrother: 2003-02-02
What exactly gave you the impression that the giant sa'angreal was broken. In WH the only reference we get is that the key is melted. And at the very end on Tremalking Timna sits on the ground in view of the statue and watches the Age of Illusions come to an end. "And on distant Tremalking, the word began to spread that the time of Illusions was at an end." (WH, pg. 766 paperback).
12
Anubis: 2003-02-20
Just the arm breaking on the statue, seemed like a reflection of what was going on with the real statue. but prolly not. and why go to tremalking for a key? wouldn't the location of the statue be the LAST place to hide an access key?
13
Matrim: 2003-02-23
Darren: The Aes Sedai who were healed by Flinn were healed back to their full power. It is stated already when the Aes Sedai Wise Ones realised that Flinn had Healed Stilling.
This proves that Men heal Women, and Women heal men best.
14
Tigraine: 2003-02-24
I'm not sure if this has been asked before, but if Siuan and Leane were severed again and then Healed by a male channeler instead, would they return to their previous full strength, or the partial strength again?
15
Callandor: 2003-02-24
Full strength. The reduction of their channeling was due to the fact that Nyneave, a woman channeler, healed them of stilling and not a male channeler. So yes if they were stilled again and healed with a male channeler like Flinn they would be back to full strength.
16
Dragons Shadow: 2003-02-24
Actually it seems to me that different types of healing are accomplished better by different sexes. For problems with the one power i think that the opposite power would be needed. the cleansing of saidin is a good example - it couldn't have been done without saidar as a filter. Also Logain is at full strength after nyn healled him but siuan and leane are not. opposite power works best in this case. On the other hand Rand's wound was not responding to the Aes Sedai (i can't remember her name) but Flynn was able to help. So I think the right choice of healler is for a man and a woman to work together and each do what they can do best. It would work out better in the end.
17
silverwolf: 2003-03-18
Everyone has been assuming that the difference in Siuan and Leane's strengths is due to the fact that they were healed by a woman. This doesn't have to be true. Nynaeve used the same method of healing that worked with Logain to heal Suian and Leane and she noticed that it felt weird; if she had used a modified technique, it might have brought Suian and Leane back up to full strength. Quotes around the healing seem to indicate that some illnesses/injuries must be healed differently in men than in women.
Another example used is Rand's Shadar Logoth wound, which responded to Flinn's healing but not to the Aes Sedai's. Again, this could be due not to the differences between saidar and saidin, but to the different methods of healing used. The Aes Sedai tried to use the general sort of healing that Aes Sedai have always used; Flinn sealed off the wound from Rand's body, not really healing it at all.
I'm not saying that it isn't possible that the differneces between saidar and saidin account for the differneces between healing men and women; all I'm saying is that it's not the only possibility.
18
anderwarrick: 2003-06-07
k, when i read this, an absurd thought came to my head. Saidar is an illusion. Crazy, right? but, then saidar starts failing in CoT, after the taint is cleansed. Or when the female giant sa'angreal glowed on tremalking marking an 'end to illusions.' What if saidar was just an illusion and after the sa'angreal was used, it was starting to be shown for what it was. I don't really believe this, it just came to me and i wanted to share it to see what you guys thought.
19
Callandor: 2003-06-08
So only saidin is real? No way.
20
Gird: 2003-06-09
When/If Elayne tries to recreate the key, will she heve to travel to Tremalking to form a bond with the sa'angreal or will she just have to use an old key? Personally I think that this is Jordans way to introduce yet another culture through her.
21
Oatman: 2004-04-11
The reason flinns healing worked better was because he used the 'New' healing with all 5 powers, and the aes sedai was using the old healing. If Nyn was thier she would have been able to do as good if not better
22
Callandor: 2004-04-11
**The reason flinns healing worked better was because he used the 'New' healing with all 5 powers, and the aes sedai was using the old healing. If Nyn was thier she would have been able to do as good if not better**
What? The Healing that Flinn uses is the same as the one Nynaeve uses. They have discovered the type of Healing used in the AoL.
Also, Nynaeve Healed Logain, Siuan, and Leane, not any other Aes Sedai.
23
Oatman: 2004-04-12
I know that Cal, that was my point. The Aes Sedai who tried to heal Rand after he was slahed at by Fain was using the traditional Aes Sedai healing using Spirit and water, because she didnt know of the new healing yet. Thus my comment on Nyn Being able to do as well or better.
24
Anubis: 2004-04-12
sorry callandor. flinn was using new type healing. he has the knack and he was on the verge of telling an aes sedai that using all the powers is good. if you reread the part where he heals rand he talks about it. wondering why all healing is the same and then he gets to thinking and then dashiva plants a few ideas to help him along. it doesnt state right out, but its pretty obvious.
25
rollthedice: 2004-04-12
On the raising the dead...why can't they just Travel to the saidar statue in Tremalking and have the guy to use the other Choeden bring his ter'angreal and then they can raise the dead there, instead of having to search all over for the other t'a.
26
Callandor: 2004-04-12
Ah, you weren't talking about the stilling (something suprising).
**sorry callandor. flinn was using new type healing...it doesnt state right out, but its pretty obvious.**
Yes, I have read the series, and if you reread my post, I say that Flinn uses the new Healing, not the old one that the Aes Sedai use for traditional purposes.
27
udernation: 2004-04-13
In reply to the possibility of a second female choedan key...
You can use them by touching the ACTUAL sa angreal. Perhaps alviarin did something when she was at tremalking? perhaps even something involving the walking dead?
28
snakes-n-foxes: 2004-04-13
I'm not sure why, but it just amuses me that Rand might become one of the walking dead, in fulfillment of prophecy...
29
Anubis: 2004-04-13
*In reply to the possibility of a second female choedan key...
You can use them by touching the ACTUAL sa angreal. Perhaps alviarin did something when she was at tremalking? perhaps even something involving the walking dead? *
no you cant (lewis black voice) thats why theres FREAKIN ACCESS KEYS.
because using them without would KILL YOU
30
OKflyboy: 2004-04-13
***You can use them by touching the ACTUAL sa angreal. Perhaps alviarin did something when she was at tremalking? perhaps even something involving the walking dead? *
no you cant (lewis black voice) thats why theres FREAKIN ACCESS KEYS.
because using them without would KILL YOU
***
No no, IIRC, Touching the actual sa'angreal should work as well. The keys just provide a means of 'portability' since the actual sa'angreal are obviously TOO BIG to carry around.
31
dragonsceptor: 2004-04-13
Anubis is right...you cannot use the Choedan Kahl w/out the access keys. If you have any doubt about this, read the strick at shayol ghul. No questions after reading that.
32
charliec: 2004-04-13
Anubis, where's your evidence for that?
Incidentally- Flinn healed Rand better sure, but I'm not sure it was just that he used all 5 powers... Nynaeve's had a go at that wound before as well, I think it's just that Flinn's genuinely more talented even than her.
33
Callandor: 2004-04-13
**You can use them by touching the ACTUAL sa angreal. Perhaps alviarin did something when she was at tremalking? perhaps even something involving the walking dead?**
Only a few people powerful enough can access the access keys themselves without being burned out, stilled, or killed; Rand nearly killed himself when he accidently felt a resonance in the statue in Cairhein. Had he been channeling into it, he most likely wouldn't have broken contact and would've died.
34
OKflyboy: 2004-04-13
"Only a few people powerful enough can access the access keys themselves without being burned out, stilled, or killed"
Quotemasters: Can you give me a quote backing this up?
This is what I found:
From BWB pg 24:
"These two statues are also unusual in that they were joined with identical but miniature versions of themselves which are believed to function solely as links between the channelers and the sa'angreal."[Now here's the important part] "This arrangement was apparently necessary, given the huge size of the sa'angreal, to allow the channelers access to the statues without having to transport themselves to the actual site, or worse yet, transport the immense statues."
This not only supports my claim about portibility, and says nothing about a 'buffer' or anything about being burned out, in fact, the "without having to transport themselves to the actual site, or worse yet, transport the immense statues." leads me to believe that using the actual sa'angreal would work fine, it just wouldn't be 'practical'...
35
OKflyboy: 2004-04-13
"Rand nearly killed himself when he accidently felt a resonance in the statue in Cairhein. Had he been channeling into it, he most likely wouldn't have broken contact and would've died. "
Also, who says he almost burned himself out? It was his first contact with a sa'angreal. He has a 'bad trip' If you'll recall, Egwene has a similar recation upon first seeing the broken key in Tanchico, it calls to her, just like the real statue called to Rand, and not until it hurts her does she even realize that she's climed over the rope and picked it up...
36
OKflyboy: 2004-04-13
Whoops, I wasn't finished... :)
Lanfear tells Rand "You terrifed me ... You could have killed yourself"
She does not say "you could have burned yourself out!" At that point Rand still doesn't know how to use his power, so sure, he could have killed himself with THAT much power even if the sa'angreal worked just fine without the key...
37
OKflyboy: 2004-04-14
Okay, well, I found this quote in The Strike at Shayol Ghul:
"The side of the Light still had the sa'angreal, but no safe way to access them; without the ter'angreal it was certain that even the strongest Aes Sedai would be burned out instantly by the huge flow of the One Power."
Wow, well that's pretty straight forward then, I guess you really can't use them w/o the keys...
38
charliec: 2004-04-15
woah! 4 in a row of flyboy...
A thought on Nynaeve being involved in the healing- wasn't there a viewing or something in one of the latest books (I've only read them once, so I'm not sure) which says Lan will survive Nynaeve by less than a day? I'm vaguely hoping that means she'll die at/around TG, which would make it hard for her to be involved in any healing.
Wishful thinking on my part probably, but we haven't had a major good character die (except *maybe* Moiraine), and I really don't like Nynaeve much...
39
Aiel Finn: 2005-04-28
That quote wasn't prophecy, it was just the Aes'sedai talking about how Nyn was the only reason that Lan was still alive. They were refering to the major depression that comes from having a bonded sister die.
40
flayer: 2005-05-22
i didnt read all the posts, so if its been said, meh
didn't egwene find a broken access key in tDR, when she used 'need' in the world of dreams?
and did it not start to draw the power through her?
if thats so, then this key still works, so a women could still be the one to 'cure death' (which i'm not convinced of yet ...)
41
Callandor: 2005-05-23
**and did it not start to draw the power through her?
if thats so, then this key still works, so a women could still be the one to 'cure death' (which i'm not convinced of yet ...)**
No, she could not draw through it.
**TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 11 - What Lies Hidden
"The crystal sphere shattered as the figure hit the floor and broke into pieces, and the needles vanished, leaving onjy dull memories of the pain and a queasiness that wobbled her knees. She squeezed her eyes shut so she could not see the room heaving. The figure had to be a ter'angreal, but why had it hurt her like that when she only touched it? Perhaps because it was broken; perhaps, broken, it could not do what it was meant for. She did not even want to think of what it might have been made for; testing ter'angreal was dangerous. At least it must be broken beyond danger now. Here, at least. Why did it seem to call me?"
It's broken and unusable. For now. Will Elayne fix that? Maybe. Who knows.
But, no, ~no one within the Pattern with anything~ can cure death. Death is death.
**BWB: page 16, CHAPTER: 1 - The Wheel and the Pattern
"The only known forces outside the Wheel and the Pattern are the Creator, who shaped the Wheel, the One Power that drives it--as well as the plan for the Great Pattern--and the Dark One, who was imprisoned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation. ~No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern. Even those who are ta'veren can only alter, but not completely change, the weave.~ It is believed that if he escapes his prison, the Dark One, being a creature or force beyond creation, has the ability to remake the Wheel and all of creation in his own dark image. Thus each person, especially each of those born ta'veren, must struggle to achieve his or her own best destiny to assure the balance and continuation of the Great Pattern."
