1
Tamyrlin: 2003-03-18
Didn't you just propose that the problem with Saidar might be related to the over-balance of Saidin because of the taint...hmm, maybe I read your last theory wrong, if so I apologize. Why the beginning of your theory addresses the obvious suggestion, this protection idea you have for Saidin is very different. Although, as you admit, there really isn't anything to prove that the DO can touch Saidar. His taint was only possible through the actually sealing event of his prison. Is there anything else you have, even circumstantially, that might help your case?
2
Weird Harold: 2003-03-19
Tamyrlin
"Why the beginning of your theory addresses the obvious suggestion, this protection idea you have for Saidin is very different."
I agree with the DO's touch being an obvious, if simplistic, explanation for the failing wards, I don't think it is Saidar that's the problem. There just aren't many Saidin based Wards and Keepings to be shown failing to blame Saidar.
Saidin with anti-bodies aginst the DO's touch presents and interesting possibility:
The Bore was "drilled" in search of new source. What they found was the DO and the True Power. What if what they found was ONLY the DO, and the "True Power" is the DO's essence or life-force.
We can then infer, (probably erroneously,) that the True Source is the Creator's essence or life force, and that is why the Taint simply floated on top of Saidin instead of homogenizing and spreading to Saidar as well.
3
Arbryan: 2004-03-12
I'm of a different opinion as to why Saidar is failing. I think there is a finite pool of Saidin and Saidar that can be accessed by people. Since the breaking there have been almost NO men accessing the tainted Saidin. Whereas Saidar has been around the block, so to speak. There are subtle cautions of not using it if you look for them. The tower is against using it for chores and the like. The very fact that it is addictive leads me to believe that it has a built in control to either scale down or discourage its use. Proof you say? Here's what I have (small list, that I'm hopefully able to spend the time to grow).
We are shown at the end of tEotW that the pool of pure Saidin is consumed in use. It doesn't stay there, it is used and is then gone.
The True Source is used to turn the Wheel of Time and I have to wonder if allowing access to it was intentional or accidental. We also have the AOL as an extreme where the One Power is used for everything. The natural balance would be a time without access to it. We also have to assume that the taint didn't affect the turning of the Wheel so it must have a separate pool of Saidin and Saidar apart from what is used by Channelers. We also have a balance point in male dominated channeling coming up as soon as the accessible Saidar runs out - since we've had only female channelers for a good long time it only stands to reason that the men get their turn.
The primary problem/unknown is that something will eventually need to take place to refill the pool (so to speak) and maybe it will slowly recreate itself, the accessible pool will be slowly filled by the pool that turns the Wheel, or something will need to happen in a future age (prior to the AOL) that will replenish the True Source. Not sure that I can even hazard a guess at that just yet.
Maybe a crazy thought, but why not share, right?
4
Arbryan: 2004-03-12
I realized my last post (still pending actually being posted) might need more of an explanation around how the power can go away and then return for the next turning of the Wheel. So, here goes.
Think of the resevoire of power like a bowl of water. If you start flicking water over here to make this wet, over there to make that wet, eventually the bowl becomes empty. Nature has a way of recycling water but it is not instantaneous. Perhaps the One Power functions in a similar fashion and the magnitude of recent events (on top of a long time of female channeling) has surpassed the natural process to replenish Saidar. It could be a very slow natural process and thus it would be ready in time for someone to discover it again and a future build up to the next Age of Legends. Though not before a long time without women able to access the power while it is 'regenerated' for lack of a better term.
5
Anubis: 2004-03-13
aryban, i think that the reason why the pool of saidin is used up and goes away is not because the saidin is gone, but rather because it returned to the larger tainted pool of saidin. the one power is like water, it flows through the channeler, is woven into whatever the channeler wants and then returns to wherever it came from.
6
Elder Haman: 2004-03-13
Has anyone considered the possibility that Saidar is not failing? After all the only signs we've seen is the "failing" of saidar wards in keeping food from spoiling. Considering that rot and decay naturally go with the nature of the Dark One isn't it easier to assume that he has merely found away around the saidar wards and accelerated the decaying process of the food?
In other words why does saidar have to be what the Dark One is touching, why can't he be directly attacking the food store. It's rather ingenious too, because everyone starts thinking that the problem is with saidar and then panic and despair grow among the Aes Sedai, the very people who are the greatest threat to the Dark One.
7
brigitta: 2004-03-14
I have a theory about this topic myself, and it stems quite far from yours... look at this:
CoT paperback p.484
"Among Aes Sedai, though, it was cause for deep worry. Every barrel of meat, every sack of grain or flour or meal had been surrounded by a Keeping as soon as bought, and whatever was woven into a Keeping could not change until the Keeping was removed. But still the meat rotted and the insects multiplied. It was as though Saidar was failing. You could get a sister to make jokes about the Black Ajah before you could get her to talk about that"--- said about a week after Rand used the CK to cleanse Saidin. If I'm not missing my guess much of the food under question must have been bought after that.
and a passage from Egwene's dreams, CoT, paperback p. 576:
"No sooner did that thought occur than she was standing on the top of it, a flat polished disc walled by mist. Not quite flat, though. A small white plinth stood centered in that circle, supporting an oil-lamp made of clear glass. The flame on that lamp burned bright and steady, without flickering. It was white too.
Suddenly a pair of birds flashed out of the mist, two ravens black as night. Streaking across the spire-top, they struck the lamp and flew on without so much as a pause. the lamp spun and wobbled, dancing around atop the plinth, flinging off droplets of oil. Some of those drops caught fire midair and vanished. Others fell around the short column, each supporting a tiny, flickering white flame And the lamp continued to wobble on the edge of falling"
Egwene reads it to be connected with the Seanchan, because of the ravens. I disagree, because ravens, pitch black as they were, also represent the DO or his taint. One being Shadar Logoth, the other the taint on saidin. Now, if they flew by and pushed not the White Tower, but saidar to the verge of falling, then that would explain what has been weakening saidar.
BUT the female half ot the OP has been weakening for a thousand years, IMO, because it had too close ancounter with both Shadar Logoth and the taint on saidin. now that this encounter has been enlargened during the cleansing of saidin, saidar may either fall or stabilise, but only with the help of saidin.
well... that's what I think;)
8
Deadsy: 2004-03-14
I don't think there is much to argue with for that dream of Egwene's. "She knew. For the first time, she knew exactly what a dream meant."
So I disagree. She's not guessing at all.
9
Anubis: 2004-03-14
interesting point. saidar and saidin are two halves of a whole. they both help eachother to push the wheel. it makes sense that saidar could possibly be weakend if saidin was taken out of the picture for long enough.
10
Callandor: 2004-03-14
**Has anyone considered the possibility that Saidar is not failing?**
I consider all the wards failing to be at fault of the Black Ajah and Forsaken, not saidar failing.
**Egwene reads it to be connected with the Seanchan, because of the ravens. I disagree, because ravens, pitch black as they were, also represent the DO or his taint.**
Ravens are the Seanchan Imperial Sigil.
**TITLE: Winter's Heart,CHAPTER: 18 - An Offer
One afternoon, he walked into Tylin's apartments, having checked and found out that Tylin was shut up with Suroth on some business or other, and in the bedchamber, he found Tuon examining his ashandarei. He froze at the sight of her fingering the words in the Old Tongue carved into the black shaft. A raven in some still darker metal was inlaid at each end of the line of script, and a pair of them engraved on the slightly curved blade. *Ravens were an Imperial sigil, to the Seanchan.* Not breathing, he tried to move backwards without making a sound.**
11
Davian93: 2004-03-14
****Egwene reads it to be connected with the Seanchan, because of the ravens. I disagree, because ravens, pitch black as they were, also represent the DO or his taint. One being Shadar Logoth, the other the taint on saidin. Now, if they flew by and pushed not the White Tower, but saidar to the verge of falling, then that would explain what has been weakening saidar.
BUT the female half ot the OP has been weakening for a thousand years, IMO, because it had too close ancounter with both Shadar Logoth and the taint on saidin.****
First of all, the DO has nothing to do with Shadar Logoth, that evil was created by men and is different from the taint on the DO.
How has the taint on saidin had any affect on Saidar in the past 1000 years? Both halves of the OP are separate and do not have contact.
12
brigitta: 2004-03-15
**I don't think there is much to argue with for that dream of Egwene's. "She knew. For the first time, she knew exactly what a dream meant."** yes, and so did Elaida. She knew exactly what her Foretelling menat. the Tower would be united. well, naturally under her omniscient and omnipotent rule; the BT would be rent in blood and fire... well, of course that means there should be some Red sisters sent that way. and so on.
I agree that the evil of Shadar Logoth has nothing to do with the DO, except the fact that it was created to fight it. fight fire with fire, one raven resembles the other.
and whatever you think, I do leave room to the possibility that I might be wrong. it's just the way I see things.
13
charliec: 2004-03-15
I don't think we've enough information yet to conclude that Saidar's failing, and even if it is I don't think there's any reason to assume that it's been going on for long.
The problems have only arisen recently, this is clearly a new phenomenon, and could even be linked to deliberate sabotage by Black Aes Sedai rather than wider problems with teh source.
On the other hand, something weird is going on with the source since the bowl of winds was used, and more so since Rand cleansed Saidin, nd this corruption could be part of that.
Channelers have commented on the power being difficult to use and unpredictable since the bowl of winds, the source may not be failing, but going through some turbulence...
14
Satin alEllien Moonsong: 2004-03-16
IMO the failing of Saidar is a result of the MASSIVE amount of the Power used to cleanse Saidin. in EotW, Moirane describes the power as being a river which feeds the water wheels of weaves. i think the the Saidar used to clean Saidin blocked the 'river' and the weaves further 'downstream' (ie use less of the power) dissipated and created the illusion of Saidar failing. I dont think there is any problem in this theory but feel free to tear it to shreds if you feel the need.
15
charliec: 2004-03-16
I'm just finding it a little hard to accept the idea that there is a limit to Saidar as a resource. I've always considered it to be an infinite source of power, not just a renewable one.
Are there any points from the BWB or non-POV statements in the books to support this idea that teh True Source can be temporarily depleted?
The original theory is suggesting that the Dark One has affected Saidar somehow, but all we see is weaves failing, no sign of corruption or distortion as yet...
16
Callandor: 2004-03-16
**On the other hand, something weird is going on with the source since the bowl of winds was used, and more so since Rand cleansed Saidin, nd this corruption could be part of that.**
The Bowl and its effects have all disapated since its use. That was due to overstressing the ter'angreal; which could be the answer here, since the access keys are ter'angreal, and only the female one was destroyed.
17
Callandor: 2004-03-16
**in EotW, Moirane describes the power as being a river which feeds the water wheels of weaves. i think the the Saidar used to clean Saidin blocked the 'river' and the weaves further 'downstream' (ie use less of the power) dissipated and created the illusion of Saidar failing.**
**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 12 - Across the Taren
"No," Moiraine said in answer to a question Rand had missed, "the True Source cannot be used up, any more than the river can be used up by the wheel of a mill. The Source is the river; the Aes Sedai, the waterwheel."**
The Aes Sedai draw from saidar, just like a wheel drawing from the water. There should be nothing to block saidar, and if there was, wouldn't it block saidin since it was used to funnel it into Shadar Logoth to remove the taint?
Also, the only indication that saidar has been acting weird is in wards. Wards last for an indefinate time; as long as the Aes Sedai sets them for. Simply "blocking" the river, should not cause that.
18
Anubis: 2004-03-16
its possible, but unlikely. We have been told that the ammount of saidin used was much more, like a mountin besides a gopher hole or somthing. and there is no news of saidin failing.
perhaps it is random sabatauge? the only places we have seen saidar failing are the white tower and the rebel camp. random sabat... fuggit i cant spell, can have a great affect on morale.
19
Tain Shari: 2004-03-16
It is mentioned above that sabotage may be the reason for the failing of saidar. This to me is the most likely option, one of the DO orders was let the lord of caos rule, this would have filtered down into the hearts/cells of darkfriend and what better way to make the AS unnereved than by shaking something she sees as her life, To an AS wars can be weathered, and worked through but with out the OP they are but mortals, So i think that there hasn't been any failing of Saidar but mearly minions have started untying the odd keeping of grains of feed or by removing rat proofing wards, THus creating moral issues and just as the Do commands letting the lord of chaos rule
20
udernation: 2004-03-17
Sabotage.
I'm agreeing with the idea of wave effect - the river of saidar was 'dammed' temporarily, henced, there is a 'wave' of it messing up weaves. It doesnt happen to Saidin coz saidin merely flowed through the funnel - it was redirected, not used.
21
charliec: 2004-03-17
*sabotage* never mind illiteracy comes to us all... I can never remember how to spell hgdofl. ;)
I go with sabotage, it makes plenty of sense.
22
crispyroach: 2004-03-17
The only reasonable answer that i can see if sadir was failing would be due to the huge jump in male channelers. if the two halfs push and pull on each other like pistons in a motor, sudden drag or release of one could effect the other. but this is not the case, there are only wards, not actual weaving or drawing on the source that is affected.
