1
Tamyrlin: 2003-04-28
We haven't had any indications in the books to suggest that any of the taint remains, so I am not sure what to believe at this moment. I do agree that, as Fel said, the seals have to be removed before the Bore can be fixed. But as to remaining taint I don't know because when Lanfear originally creates the Bore, the DO's ability to touch the world didn't taint the OP. But do the remaining seals leave Saidin open to be retainted? I will have to think on this. However, prophecy says that the Dragon would heal the wounds of madness.
2
Highbreaker: 2003-04-28
Of course it is!!!! It is mentioned in the book that the taint was the DO "Counterstroke" This implies rather heavily that the DO did it himself, not the LTT did it to himself.
Besides, The Taint has to be clean before the wheel comes back around to the second age.
3
Rand-althor: 2003-04-28
I agree with the fact that the taint is not completely gone, but if the taint "piles up" as you assume, then wouldnt channelers start to go insane faster and faster, where as we have seen no indication that men are going insane younger.
4
Callandor: 2003-04-28
The taint is cleansed. LTT remarks on it, Rand would know if it wasnt since he has channeled pure saidin, and the Forsaken wouldnt be so jumpy if Rand couldnt suceed in cleansing it totally.
The Seals do need to be destroyed because of them the DO COULD taint the male half of the Source at the Strike at Shay Ghoul, but the taint as of now is gone.
5
Mairan Sedai: 2003-04-28
You're right, it's actually kind of the opposite: LTT and his companions went mad instantly (I think), and now it takes years (15 at most if Taim isn't a DF.)
6
Callandor: 2003-04-28
LTT and the remaining Hundred Companions most likely went insane instantly because they suffered the total full scale backlash of the DO tainting saidin. The rest of the male Aes Sedai did go slowly insane as the male channelers do now a days, although it is the men going insane more often now because they used it so much.
7
Jiana: 2003-04-28
I say the taint is gone. Utterly. The seals do have to be broken, but... (it is kinda late so please forgive if this sounds half formed) When Rand and Min went to the rebel's camp (with Caraline Damodred), and one of the bubbles of evil appeared, Fain wounded Rand quite badly with the dagger. I believe it was Asha'man Flinn who Healed him.... except, in addition to Healing him, he also "sealed the two evils away from him." Am I the only one who is getting an inkling that this might be a key to resealing the DO?
8
cow defender: 2003-04-29
he MAY be right. We don't know for sure that the Dark One, herself tainted the male half of the source. We only think that it was b/c they say it was the DO's counterstroke, just like we thought ba'alzamon was the DO in the first books. there's no real way to disprove melchizedek and his theory. (sorry if you're a she.)
9
Hydraan Sedai: 2003-04-29
I always wondered why Rand did what he did to cleanse the Taint; He didn't try to filter the Taint or Saidin into another "vessel". Like the Eye of the World; That was solid Saidin. Well, it seems that the Taint and Saidin are immiscible ((Like oil and water)), so theoretically, he could drain Saidin into a new Eye, and leave the Taint where it is. Or vice-versa; Drain the Taint out. It just seems that the Taint is "lighter", because the Asha'man have to "push" through it to get to Saidin.
But anyway, Rand didn't do that. He tried something like "scooping" the Taint out of Saidin, which doesn't work ((Ever tried scooping leaves out of your pool with your hands? You don't get them all)). Which means that there is some Taint left.
You reckon that the Taint accumulated over 3000 years? Sounds plausible. Maybe the Male Aes Sedai made another sacrifice, by drawing the Taint into themselves, causing their immediate madness, and relieving Saidin of the Taint. But they also didn't completely get it....Perhaps Rand should record *how* he Cleansed Saidin; Leave the records in his schools....If he didn't clean it completely, then at least the Aes Sedai and Asha'men can continually clean it, so that the Taint doesn't build up.
10
cow defender: 2003-04-29
How would the Asha'man or any other male channelers be able to cleanse the taint again, if it does come back? there is no shadar logoth evil to fight the shadow's evil. unless fain is gonna make another evil nation like mordeth did.
11
Callandor: 2003-04-29
Rand didnt scoop out the taint at all. He formed a hollow tube of pure untainted saidar and attatched it to saidin and Shadar Logoth. Because of the two evils attracting each other, the taint was drawn into Shadar Logoth and that resulted in the large black dome. However, to get this started Rand hard to channel a huge amount of saidin into the tube till he felt the taint shift (he did NOT channel all of saidin into the tube). He then just had to hold on till the taint was all gone.
Taints gone.
12
Hydraan Sedai: 2003-04-29
Ah well, I don't understand that bit about the two evils fighting eachother; Would you be able to explain it to me? Or did your post Callandor explain it?
That sounds like filtration; The Taint was drawn down the funnel into Shadar Logoth by Shadar Logoth.
Why did the two evils destroy eachother though? I don't understand that bit....Why isn't there a big hole in Rand's side?
13
silverwolf: 2003-04-30
The evil of Shadar Logoth was created to destroy the evil of the Dark One (see quotes about the transformation of Aridhol into Shadar Logoth if you don't remember this; Moiraine mentions it in TEotW and I think Haman mentions it in LoC). Because it was created to destroy the DO's evil, it destroyed trollocs, fades, etc. and, eventually, destroyed the taint.
What Rand did was not a scooping motion. He connected Shadar Logoth and the taint (which is located on the surface of saidin) with a tube of saidar. The taint, like scum, is cohesive; if one part of it moves in one direction, the rest of it tends to follow (that's why the taint flowed into a man the entire time he was channeling rather than only flowing in when he first touched the source). Because the taint is cohesive, once a large part of the taint was moved into Shadar Logoth via the saidar tunnel and Rand's massive channeling, the rest followed. Rand didn't channel anywhere near all of saidin through the tunnel, but the taint was completely drawn through. It is gone, and will not come back unless the DO manages a counterstroke when Rand reseals the bore.
Also, I don't think the DO was able to taint saidin as a direct result of the seals; rather, he was able to taint saidin because a large number of channelers were directing saidin into his prision, where he is able to manipulate reality. In other words, I don't think it matters that the seals are still in place. The only reason they still need to be broken is to reseal the prison--new seals cannot be put into place until the older are cleared away (Fel sent a note to Rand that said "Belief and order give strenght, have to clear away rubble before you build." Before anyone argues that Fel could be wrong, he was apparently right about the first part; as chaos and doubt spread through the world, the seals weakened.
Sorry that not much of this post is very clear, but I don't know how to word it mauch better.
14
Callandor: 2003-04-30
Flinn sealed off the Shadar Logoth evil on Rands side. Thats as close as I can come to an explaination of why Rands side hasnt exploded.
WH, Chapter 35, With the Choedan Kal, page 637:
**The male and female halves of the True Source were alike and unalike, attracting and repelling, fighting against each other even as they worked together to drive the Wheel of Time. The taint on the male half had its opposite twin, too. The wound given him by Ishamael throbbed in time with the taint, while the other, from Fains blade, beat counterpoint in time with the evil that had killed Aridhol.**
Proof that this works is in TEOTW, Chapter 20, Dust on the Wind, page 251, when Rand and company are in SL the tendrils of Mashadar only drifted toward Rand when he charged past, but when the Trollocs tried the same, the tendrils **swung uncertainly for a moment, then struck like vipers.**
This is all prove that the evil of SL attracted the taint into it, but Rand first had to channel IMMENSE amounts of saidin into SL to first get the taint to move/shift as he felt it. This is more proven with the comparisons by the Aes Sedai in COT: when they say that **the ground should have been covered in saidin** and that the scale of saidar to sadin was **like an anthill compared to Dragonmount.**
15
Wolfblade: 2003-05-02
I I agree that the taint is gone. And in which the way the saidin was cleansed. But the fact remains is after WH Rand is still affected by the challening sickness.
There are two possible reasons for this.
1. Callandor, which is defectives somehow amplified the taint and actually made Rand sick at all times which is heighten when he channels.
2.A theory of my own is that when Rand and Moridin both used balefire at the same time that this had temporaily moved Rand of the web of destiney when it backfired. Thus when Rand cleansed the source his theard still did not yet rejoined the web of destiney. By the time Rand's theard rejoined The efffects of a clean Saidin was gone. Therefore the affects the clean saidin will take sometime before the sickness is gone
16
Jalwin Moerad: 2003-05-03
This is my guess. Because Asha'man were able to channel at the time when Rand performed his cleansing, the Saidin in them could not be cleansed. i.e., small amounts of saidin were being used/channeled by others than Rand, so it would be impossible for him to clean saidin that was being used at the time.
17
The Green Man: 2003-05-05
I believe that saidin is really cleansed because it is stated that the taint was the counterstroke to the darkone being sealed and he could only taint the male half because it was the only part being used to seal him.
This now leads me on to believe that the bore can only be sealed by male and female chanellers working together. Possibly they may have to bebonded, but I haven't thought much on that part of the theory.
18
melchizedek137: 2003-05-06
The truth is, I hope that Saidin is fully cleansed... but there is a strange suspicion among the female Aes Sedai that it is not (it is so wild, they say, it could be hiding in there!) If that taint is only down to 1% of what it used to be, that is wonderful... but if (as I suspect) the cause of the taint IS the seals... then it will start to creep back, slowly, and become noticable again. If it is so much less than it was, it will perhaps slowly reach the end after the seals are all broken... it will no longer be able to seep through the seals into Saidin, and so it will truly be cleansed then.
19
Callandor: 2003-05-07
The taint isnt from the Seals. The Seals were just the means for the DO tainting saidin when the Strike at Shay Ghuol took place.
And its cleanesed. The Aes Sedai are just proud morons right now and are in disblief since its been tainted for over 3000 years.
20
Darren: 2003-05-11
Of course saidin is really cleansed, all of you who say no are going to eat your words, but there's no way to resolve this issue since it comes down to opinion. And opinion without evidence is gossip, so we'll all just have to RAFO. You make an interesting point about the seals, however, it's a moot point. Things made with saidin millenia ago are of course still tainted (witness the ways) just like the Asha'man themselves have to retain the residue, but that doesn't mean that the source itself is not now pure.
My question is what the effect on Rand is going to be from the ENORMOUS amount of the taint that he had to deal with to cleanse the source. That was a LOT, and if he wasn't crazy before, he's sure going to be a strange cat now.
Also, I wonder whether any of the Aes Sedai who took part in the circle will go mad from that channeling. Fair is fair, after all, and now we should get to see just how tough a cookie Nynaeve is.
21
Zader: 2004-07-01
Yes the taint has been cleansed and yes we have proof it has been done before. That is how Rand knew it could be done again. There is no way he could have asked the finns how to cleanse the Taint, No question can be asked about the shadow and I believe the DO counter sroke would qualify as a shadow question. The Nym told Rand in TEOFTW that 50 men and 50 women had cleansed the taint to form the Eye but it had killed them all. What he had to figure out, was how to survive cleansing the taint.
22
charliec: 2004-07-05
Zader, I just read in PoD that Rand DID ask the finns how to cleanse saidin, and received a riddle for an answer.
As far as questions pertaining to the shadow go Moiraine only knew that it appeared that they were punished... she didn't know the exact rules, and apparently in this case they didn't apply.
23
snakes-n-foxes: 2004-07-05
Well, I do have some thoughts on this. For starters, why couldn't the Dark One taint the One Power (both saidin and saidar) BEFORE the hundred companions struck ? Or in other words, why is it, that he was able to taint Saidin only at the moment of his sealing away, and not anytime before that ?
Now, someone mentioned previously that there was enormous amounts of One Power being directed into his prison...but there is nothing to say this is so(after all, it looks like all their efforts were being directed into the sealing of the bore, not a direct attack on the dark one).
The centrepiece of the sealing was the 7 seals. The 7 seals of course, no doubt represented a 'connection to something'(though we are never given any hint of this, I doubt you could just throw 7 seals on the ground and say 'goodbye dark one'...they had to be linked to something).
So it does seem that the Dark Ones counterstroke was directly 'linked' to, or the 'sealing', the centrepiece of which were the 7 seals.
So...
'IF' the 7 seals were the 'link' through which the Dark One achieved his counterstroke...how then can Rand have cleansed the taint whilst some seals are still in existance ?
24
mazrimashaman: 2005-04-08
I to belive that the seals have some kind of bad effect, I belive i just put up a theory about it
25
allpowerful32: 2006-01-12
Rand didn't try to scoop the taint off of saidin. He simply poored it off into Shadar Logath, which acted similarly to when rand was there (the wounds in his side throbbing) and collected the taint, because it was a battle (more or less) between the sl evil and the taint. This would be more or less filtering it, because the taint would stay in sl, while saidin would return to the pattern.
26
Callandor: 2006-01-12
Rand channeled tainted saidin through a tube of saidar. Because saidar and saidin cannot mix, saidin was compressed in the tube, and flowed through much faster. One end of the tube was saidin itself, the other end was Shadar Logoth. When tainted saidin got to Shadar Logoth, due to the attraction and repulsion of the taint and the evil of Shadar Logoth, it was siphoned off of saidin and remained at Shadar Logoth resulting in the black dome.
Once this process had been started, Rand simply had to hold on because it became self-sustaining. Once all the taint was siphoned off, Rand collapsed the conduit, and the two evils destroyed each other.
