he Darkfriend Set-Up
by mako0424: 2004-07-13 | Not yet rated
I think all of our major characters are being set-up or surrounded by Darkfriends or those in league with darkfriends, and all will be confronted almost at once.
1. Rand-my guess is both Taim will strike but Logain will counter him, and i think ....Davram Bashere might be a Darkfriend, a sneaking suspicion with little evidence, but it would make for a close companion who betrays him totally.
2.Mat- again, i think Noal is Jain Farstrider, and i also think Noal is not a Darkfriend, but under Compulsion, and the whole gholam Noal set-up was to easy to get Noal closer to Mat. I think Noal will turn on Mat, but also be realeased and fight for the Light by TG.
3. Perrin- i think Aram is the Darkfriend here, he wasn't a darkfriend in eye of the world, but he became one later, gave up the sword, and attached himself to Perrin and Faile very strongly, probably being compulsed too. He will kill Faile somehow, and thats where all of Egwene's prophecies come true
4. Egwene-i think the darkfriends are Delaana, Halima, but the surprise betrayal will of course come from Sheriam.
5. Elayne- of course i think Sareitha Sedai and her new Captain Doilan Mellar.
well, that covers the main characters. Well, tell me what ya'll think.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2004-10-05
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
I wonder if there's a difference between a theory and stating the obvious. ;)
1) Rand had Dashiva. He now has Elza. And probably many more.
2) Mat had Melindhra. Noal's the obvious choice for current. Which makes me slightly uncomfortable.
3) My jury's still out on this one.
4) Nothing new here.
You left out a few factions/groups, but i'll leave it to othrs to point them out and theorize on the darkfriend moles within them.
2
Callandor: 2004-10-05
**1. Rand-my guess is both Taim will strike but Logain will counter him, and i think ....Davram Bashere might be a Darkfriend, a sneaking suspicion with little evidence, but it would make for a close companion who betrays him totally.**
We've had Bashere's point of view before, and no dark intentions are in there (the man Bashere was talking about, was Logain).
Plus, if he was a Darkfriend, the Darkfriends that attacked his tent for seals, just had to ask him for them, not attack.
**2.Mat- again, i think Noal is Jain Farstrider, and i also think Noal is not a Darkfriend, but under Compulsion, and the whole gholam Noal set-up was to easy to get Noal closer to Mat. I think Noal will turn on Mat, but also be realeased and fight for the Light by TG.**
Possibly, but by who?
**3. Perrin- i think Aram is the Darkfriend here, he wasn't a darkfriend in eye of the world, but he became one later, gave up the sword, and attached himself to Perrin and Faile very strongly, probably being compulsed too. He will kill Faile somehow, and thats where all of Egwene's prophecies come true**
Aram is just one messed up kid trying to make sense of his world. He's lost everything in abstract terms, and only has Perrin and Faile left.
Aram killing Faile?! He whorships her!
Plus, I really hate when people say Faile will die; she really won't.
**4. Egwene-i think the darkfriends are Delaana, Halima, but the surprise betrayal will of course come from Sheriam.**
Not a chance. Sheriam is a Light-follower. Once again, we've had her Point of View, and again, nothing dark about her is shown there. Plus, being beaten for lack of information the way she is, isn't quite the same par level as other Darkfriend to Darkfriend relations.
Also, Sheriam was forced to tell the truth about the ferrets in the White Tower, because of the First Oath. If she were Black Ajah, she could just deny.
Also, her torture obviously wants to gain information from her. Sheriam thinks along the lines of "I'll never talk to another Sister.", which would be directly contrary to any Darkfriend information -- she would hop to to go get that information if she was Black.
**5. Elayne- of course i think Sareitha Sedai and her new Captain Doilan Mellar.**
Yep.
3
Great Lord of the Dark: 2004-10-05
Indeed. If a Darkfriend uprising is to take place, we should anticipate Ituralde, teh Borderlanders, the Shaido, the Aiel, the Sea Folk, the Seanchan, and others to also have disruptions/betrayals.
The real question could be, are there any groups which are Darkfriend-free.
I believe Cadsuane's group is, as are the Aes Sedai Logain bonded, and likely Logain's faction as well. I lean towards Mat and Perrin having no darkfriends with them in their core group, but maybe having picked some up, like Masema. Your statements on Rand, Egwene, and Elayne are obviuosly correct.
4
DCIMorse: 2004-10-06
1) In CoT, Bashere's wife was nearly killed by thieves who were presumably looking for the seal that Rand gave to Bashere back in LoC. If Bashere were a Darkfriend, wouldn't he have told his contacts where the seal was stashed, if not hand it over to them personally? And wouldn't he arrange things so that none of his loved ones were harmed during the robbery? And why would he then put Rand on guard by notifying him of the robbery and the attack on Dobraine? Even if these attacks were part of some complex feint, the details don't add up, especially since Bashere learns of the attack during his own PoV and seems genuinely surprised.
2) I think you're right about that one. Poor Noal.
3) Aram is the exact opposite of a Darkfriend. He watched a band of Trollocs slaughter his loved ones and has been thirsty for vengeance ever since. He's like WoT's answer to Charles Bronson. The doom that Egwene sensed most likely has something to do with Aram's maniacal bloodlust and vigilante attitude.
It's actually possible that Perrin has no Darkfriends close to him, unless Masema or one of the Channelers with him is evil. Very few people knew about Perrin's mission, and the Shadow might not have had time to ensure that he had a mole with him.
4) If Sheriam betrays Egwene, it won't be willingly. Someone is beating her up and making her spy on Egwene, but that doesn't make her a Darkfriend. You could even see it as evidence that she isn't a Darkfriend.
5) Those two may not be the only ones, but I think we'll know for sure by the end of KoD.
5
Frenzy: 2004-10-06
"Aram killing Faile?! He whorships her!"
Wow, Callandor, that's either a Freudian slip or one heck of a typo. ~lol~
Who do you think is the Darkfriend with the Borderland Monarchs?
6
mako0424: 2004-10-06
Sorry for those of you who believed my observations were a little to obvious, and should not have even been stated, but i was a little brief about some points and implications.
1. I don't just think there are secret moles everywhere, i think they are all going to simultaneously strike at our characters at a very crucial time, i.e. right befre Tg, or during.
I think this could result in a few serious deaths or injuries, our main characters i think will remain whole, but some of the lesser main characters (i.e Faile (im have a sneaking suspicion she WILL die, to crush Perrin further, allow Berelain to land on Perrin's other shoulder, and to add a little spice and fallibility to the story and our loved main characters)
2. I may not be sure about Bashere, but i don't necessarily think that a P.O.V. automatically should eradicate the possibility of a Darkfriend, maybe the attempt at stealing the seals was a feint, a mis-communication, or simply an attempt at other Darkfriends trying to further ingratiate themselves with the Dark Lord, and had no prior commands or instructions)
Of course Elza, and possibly other Black Sisters might be residing with Rand, but Rand of course will have to face the most betrayals being the Dragon.
3. I think Noal is being compulsed by Graendal. Sorry for not pointing this out earlier, but i think there are many references to this, and i think GRaendal and possibly Moridin had something to do with this. I also think that the major high darkfriend, Old Man Caddy or something (dont have the books, sorry) is Noal/Jain.
4. I still stand by my point that Aram is Dark in nature, and not just misguided, he is either compulsed, turned, or a darkfriend. Whether he is the one to kill Faile or not, he will betray Perrin crucially.
5. I think Alanna Mosvini will die saving Rand from a Darkfriend assassination attempt, and this will send Rand into mourning and beggar-mode. (just a loony prediction though)
6. I think the Dark Lord has been setting it up so the Double tripod (ie Rand, Perrin, Mat) and (Elayne, Egwene, Nynaeve) will be struck hard.
But its all hypothetical, i think there are multiple factions without worry towards Darkfriends, ie. Cadsuane's Posse, The Borderlanders Monarchs and high-ups mean good, and the Kin are free.
The Seanchan have some obvious ones to of course, i.e Suroth and Semirhage/Anath
7
Callandor: 2004-10-06
**The real question could be, are there any groups which are Darkfriend-free.**
Oh yes there is: the Searchers in the White Tower. Every Aes Sedai that participates is not a Darkfriend.
**Wow, Callandor, that's either a Freudian slip or one heck of a typo. ~lol~**
Frenzy, you know I can't spell at all. ;) Yes, its a typo.
**1. I don't just think there are secret moles everywhere, i think they are all going to simultaneously strike at our characters at a very crucial time, i.e. right befre Tg, or during.**
That would take communication on a massive scale between Darkfriend networks, that simply hasn't been shown in the books if it even ever existed. The whole disadvantage Darkfriends have, is that one hand doesn't know what the other hand is doing.
**2. I may not be sure about Bashere, but i don't necessarily think that a P.O.V. automatically should eradicate the possibility of a Darkfriend, maybe the attempt at stealing the seals was a feint, a mis-communication, or simply an attempt at other Darkfriends trying to further ingratiate themselves with the Dark Lord, and had no prior commands or instructions)**
Fact: With every first time point of view with a Darkfriend, it becomes apparent at the end of that section that they are not what they appear to be. Perfect example: Elza Penfell. I doubt anyone believed her a Darkfriend till she explained so in her POV.
Points of View are very, very telling, and Bashere's tells nothing but that he was secretly dealing with a then unknown man; later revealed he was working for the good to find Rand, for Logain!
**I think Noal is being compulsed by Graendal.**
Graendal is in Arad Doman, and has pretty much been ordered to give up her past ideas and to follow the team. How would she continue to do this?
**4. I still stand by my point that Aram is Dark in nature, and not just misguided, he is either compulsed, turned, or a darkfriend. Whether he is the one to kill Faile or not, he will betray Perrin crucially.**
And that doesn't add to anything. Prove it.
**6. I think the Dark Lord has been setting it up so the Double tripod (ie Rand, Perrin, Mat) and (Elayne, Egwene, Nynaeve) will be struck hard.**
Ugh, don't ever mention Elayne, Egwene, and Nynaeve being important on the scope of Rand, Mat, and Perrin again. Uck. Rand, Mat, and Perrin are the keys due to their ta'vereness; Elayne, Egwene, and Nynaeve simply aren't ta'veren. Heck, all Egwene does is ride on the after effects of anything Rand does (try to argue it ;)).
8
DCIMorse: 2004-10-07
I'm not going to be a jerk and argue anymore on most of these points, but the Aram thing really gets my goat. WoT is full of evil, violent, misguided, borderline psychotic people who have nothing to do with the Shadow. That's one of the things that makes the story so rich. And that's why I get really irritated when people insist that characters like Aram or Masema (I know you didn't bring up Masema, but he also gets bandied about a lot) must be Darkfriends.
Also, I just think that the surprise of "Oh no! Aram's a Darkfriend!" would not be nearly as satisfying as the tragic irony of Aram betraying Perrin out of a desire to do good.
HOWEVER, I absolutely agree with your basic proposal: that the Big Six are surrounded by Darkfriends who are poised to rise as one. That much is clear.
9
lurk: 2004-10-07
"3. I think Noal is being compulsed by Graendal. Sorry for not pointing this out earlier, but i think there are many references to this, and i think GRaendal and possibly Moridin had something to do with this. I also think that the major high darkfriend, Old Man Caddy or something (dont have the books, sorry) is Noal/Jain."
In one of the books (don't have em here) The old beggar (who i believe is Noal) ponders on the fact that his mind is so empty, he remembers having a strong swordarm but now he's old and pretty weak, except for his skills with the knife. This strikes me as evidence that he's currently under compulsion. Morgase remembered little of what she did when she was under compulsion by Rahvin. I'm interested in the leads that is is graendal. I suspected Ishamael / Moridin
10
Stilicho: 2004-10-07
OK Callandor, I'll take the bait. Please explain why you think Sheriam is not a DF. At first reading, it seemed obvious (on the level of Anath=Semirhage) that she was a DF/BA. Just because some BA tell the truth once in a while doesn't mean the 3 oaths still bind them. After all, they DO have to appear as "normal" aes sedai. On the other hand, RJ could be setting up another of his little jokes. I'm curious what has you so convinced though.
11
Daekyras: 2004-10-11
I have been re-reading the books over the last couple of weeks and I picked up on something that may be crack-pot in the Great hunt.
Leane, the Amyrlins keeper and siuan Sanche's best friend may be a darkfriend.
In the prologue of the Great Hunt, a man named Bors is in a meeting. While there he sees two, maybe three Aes Sedai. It is very like jordan to have events close together so I always assumed one of those Black Ajah was Liandrin, whom we meet in the next couple of chapters.
But who was the other? We know Liandrin had an unhealthy interest in the boys. Good call. But why do I think Leane?
It is a bit spurious, but Bors was shown an image of the three boys and they are referred to as The trickster, The shepherd and the blacksmith.
Later on, when Lan is leading Rand to meet the Amyrlin, Leane encounters them. She looks very closely at rand and refers to him s supposed to be "a sheperd". She had an earlier meeting with Perrin and refers to him as "the Black Smith". Coincidence? I think not. she also set herself to gaurd Mat. Why would someone in her position, and someone who later(book 8 I think) confesses to very little healing ability do that? Suspicious.
This is good cause she could be the Darkfriend with Egwene who is beating Sheriam....
12
Callandor: 2004-10-11
**In the prologue of the Great Hunt, a man named Bors is in a meeting. While there he sees two, maybe three Aes Sedai. It is very like jordan to have events close together so I always assumed one of those Black Ajah was Liandrin, whom we meet in the next couple of chapters.**
Yes, Liandrin was one of the Aes Sedai at the meetings (she met and told flat out what happened there to Carridin in TSR).
**Later on, when Lan is leading Rand to meet the Amyrlin, Leane encounters them. She looks very closely at rand and refers to him s supposed to be "a sheperd". She had an earlier meeting with Perrin and refers to him as "the Black Smith".**
Hate to break it to you, but many people have refered the both Rand and Perrin in the same way.
What was Rand's life before leaving the Two Rivers? A shepherd.
What was Perrin's life before leaving the Two Rivers (and semi-continues)? A blacksmith.
Btw, in the prolouge, I can't find any reference to Rand as a "shepherd".
**TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 8 - The Dragon Reborn
Leane blinked, and her smile faded to a thoughtful look. "This is supposed to be a shepherd, Lan Gaidin? He was not so sure of himself this morning."**
Is this what you mean?
**TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 8 - The Dragon Reborn
"I am a shepherd from the Two Rivers, Mother."
"Daughter, tell him the story. A true story, boy. Listen well."**
**TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 8 - The Dragon Reborn
Battles are always hot, even in the,snow. Had to get away from the stink of death. Tam's delirious voice clawed at the empty calm inside Rand. The void trembled and shrank, steadied, then wavered again. The Amyrlin's eyes bored at him. He felt sweat on his face again. "It was all a feverdream," he said. "He was sick." He raised his voice. "My name is Rand al'Thor. I am a shepherd. My father is Tam al'Thor, and my mother was - "**
**TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 7 - Blood Calls Blood
Rand looked down at the pin worriedly. Caldazar. The Red Eagle of Manetheren. "A thorn to the Dark One's foot," he murmured, "and a bramble to his hand." He looked at the Warder. "Manetheren's long dead and forgotten, Lan. It's just a name in a book, now. There is only the Two Rivers. Whatever else I am, I'm a shepherd and a farmer. That's all."**
All Rand does is say he is a shepherd. Isn't too hard to see other people refer to him that way (in fact a lot of people do).
13
Daekyras: 2004-10-13
You didn't hate breaking it to me, you loved it. Admit it!
I still believe Leane is a Darkfriend.
Why the "thoughtful look"?
When, in any of those quotes from Rand you gave about him being a shepherd, was leane present to hear him say that?
Why was she there with mat?
Why have we, to the best of my knowledge, never had a point of view reading from her despite her being in almost every book?
14
Callandor: 2004-10-13
**I still believe Leane is a Darkfriend.
Why the "thoughtful look"?**
Because she thought about something, she is a Darkfriend?
**When, in any of those quotes from Rand you gave about him being a shepherd, was leane present to hear him say that?**
She is the Keeper, second to Amyrlin, and one who doesn't like to be out of discussions with Siuan. Why wouldn't she hear of this "shepherd"?
**Why was she there with mat?**
To check up, and lay ties to, a known ta'veren? After all, Aes Sedai do do that.
**Why have we, to the best of my knowledge, never had a point of view reading from her despite her being in almost every book?**
So, if not for New Spring, you would use this as evidence that Lan was a Darkfriend? How about Sorilea? Or Be'lal? We never got one of his ;).
