rigins of the Myrddraal
by ilgross: 2004-07-24 | Not yet rated
We all know the Myrddraal are throw backs to the human side of the trollocs and there is a theory that this is due to the channelling gene, so Myrddraals are in fact twisted channelers. My Theory will takes this a few steps further.
First off we know that no animals can channel. Thus it would be reasonable to assume the unlike other human genes the ‘channelling gene' cannot be mixed with human so when a trolloc is born with the channelling gene, it instead rejects the animal DNA, and assumes only the corrupted human gene. This is one potential source for the identical nature of their appearance.
More evidence for the connection for between the Myrddraal and the channelling gene is their numbers. We know that about 3% of the total population can channel, and there are 1 or 2 Fades per Fist of Trollocs (100+ Trollocs) adding on the Myrddraal that don't control fist and operate on their own, the numbers just about match up.
One question that this theory raises is “Why can't the Myrddraal channel?” well the answer is that they can.
Only they don't channel the One Power they can channel the True Power, due to their corruption by the Dark One, a lot like how the Forsaken are corrupt and thus can (could) channel the True Power, only the Myrddraal are corrupted more completely and thus have lost any possible access to the one power.
“Halfmen have powers of a kind, the sort that stem from the Dark One” Lan – TEOTW
However there isn't a school for all these true power channellers, thus they all become wilders. We know that from the White Tower that nearly all wilders, develop one of two abilities: Eavesdropping or a form of Compulsion.
I'm proposing that all the Myrddraal learn Travelling as their wilding ability. From the Prelude in TWOTW we know the people using the True Power travel like this “the air rippled, shimmered, solidified into a man (Ishy)” this sounds remarkably like how Myrddraals shadow-hop around. That the Myrddraals need a shadow to travel can be explained by using an example from the Aes Sedai: All Aes Sedai are taught and told that you must ‘throw' fireballs to channel them, today not a single Aes Sedai can make fireballs without a throwing action. As it is with Myrddraals, they are taught/told that they must find the edge of the shadow and then they can shadow-hop away. It is merely a psychological limit imposed on themselves but their own teaching/institution.
The reason no one ever knew about this was because nobody can detect the True Power when they use it, also the Myrddraal wouldn't know either as they have been taught/told how to do it, not why or how it actually works. This is like Nynaeve being great at healing, but nobody (including her) would ever think that she was a channeler, that's why Semirhage couldn't get the Fades to fess up when she tortured them.
This also explains how Shaidar Haran can do all that cool black fire stuff, he's simply using his True Power to maximum effect.
This theory asks the question “Is there a school for Myrddraal or do they simply pick up a sword after leaving their mothers womb?” This is hard to answer since we have never seen any of the Trolloc bases. But I'd favour the schooling approach as they must be able to change their ‘training' since they were using Guns (or something similar) in the AoLs, but now they are using swords. This Myrddraal school would also increase the likely hood of the limit on shadow hopping as it would be taught to them directly.
Thanks for your time.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2004-10-22
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
I've always assumed that the myrddraal's abilities stem from the Dark One's touch/taint/power that was used in the making of Trollocs, and subsequently them. They have abilities, they don't channel Power, One or True. They are magical beings, not beings wielding magic. Similar to a Channeler who slows: the slowing is part of being a channeler, not a result of channeling. (not the best example, since slowing is related to strength in the Power)
The Guide mentions that Myrddraal are human throwbacks, and that there are also animal throwbacks (which are stillborn). I don't recall ever seeing mention of how many of each are born related to how many Trollocs are born.
2
Callandor: 2004-10-22
**One question that this theory raises is “Why can't the Myrddraal channel?” well the answer is that they can.**
No, they don't.
**this sounds remarkably like how Myrddraals shadow-hop around.**
No, we have had Shaidar Haran's POV of when he travels by shadow; he reaches for the Shadow, instead of opening a gateway or tearing a hole in the Pattern.
**As it is with Myrddraals, they are taught/told that they must find the edge of the shadow and then they can shadow-hop away. It is merely a psychological limit imposed on themselves but their own teaching/institution.**
Nice idea, but wrong.
**This also explains how Shaidar Haran can do all that cool black fire stuff, he's simply using his True Power to maximum effect.**
Shaidar Haran, is an exception to Myrddraals. He's most likely been altered by the Dark One personally.
**But I'd favour the schooling approach as they must be able to change their ‘training' since they were using Guns (or something similar) in the AoLs, but now they are using swords.**
Where's this? People in the AoL used swords too, and Shadowspawn use the tactic of greater numbers, instead of greater skill.
3
charliec: 2004-10-23
**No, they don't. **
**Nice idea, but wrong. **
Lol Callandor, open minded as ever!
I agree though, I don't think myrddraal can really be said to channel, especially when it comes to their shadow-riding. The single strongest piece of evidence here is that from the forsakens' POVs we've seen that neither the fades NOR their creators understood their abilities... and this in an age where the science of the power was extremely advanced (and some of the forsaken were first-echelon minds).
I do agree that halfmen have 'powers', and tend to feel that we saw an example of them at whitebridge, but I also think that they are very limited. Certainly it would seem reasonable to suggest that these abilities are manifestations of the TP, but more as an inherent ability to the fade rather than as conscious channeling (or even the ability to learn greater control).
For a start... if you had an army of evil killing machines who could learn to use the power, and about four thousand years (including pre-breaking) to realise it and train them to channel, you'd have played pretty poorly to fail...
Shadar Haran is of course a special case, he is so un-fadelike in so many ways that we can't take his access to the TP as useful evidence here.
4
Satin alEllien Moonsong: 2004-10-23
hey callandor, give the kid a break!!
you seem to be refuting what he is saying without presenting any evidence of your own, quite hypcritical considering that your most common argument is 'prove it'
practice what you preach, man!!
btw ilgross, i think that this is a solid, well thought out and presented theory and, while i may not agree with it, it bears some consideration
5
Jumai: 2004-10-23
When Moghedien first meets Moridin, she is about to tell him EXACTLY how many people have been permitted to touch the TP and just how big an honour this is. Chosen hold themselves above myrdraal (see Demandred at Shayol Ghul) so it would definitely be a bleh thing to them if every fade could do it.
It doesn't explain Aginor's failed experiments with the "shadow-hopping", he would recognize TP traveling, if only from being around Ish.
It also doesn't explain Aginor's conclusion that they are "slightly out of phase with time and reality".
Your Lan quote has to be taken at face value. Lan doesn't know anything but what he's seen happen, not why, not how. He isn't giving hints about the inner workings of Myrdraal, he has no way of knowing them, just making a statement of fact.
6
Aiel Finn: 2004-10-24
That's not a bad idea, but remember that Halfmen don't reflect and Anginor says that they aren't completly in the universe. That would explain thier shadow-hopping, not TP needed.
7
Dorindha: 2004-10-24
I do think that myrddraals are linked to the channelling gene, and I pretty much agree with what you said upto working out the percentages (although you failed to take account of female trollocs, which makes the numbers of myrrdraals relatively smaller, but this is largely irrelevant).
However, while I do think Myrddraal are somehow caused by the channelling gene, I do not think they can actually channel in a way that compares to other channellers in the series (also, you do not "become" wilder, you are one by definition if you have not been to the tower - though a more liberal interpretation would be if you have not been trained). As Frenzy says, their abilities are linked to the DO's influence on them, and while they may stem from the true power, they do not actively channel it.
8
ilgross: 2004-10-25
***“I don't recall ever seeing mention of how many of each are born related to how many Trollocs are born.***
I using the knowledge that a fist (of around 100 trollocs) is commanded by 1 Fade, plus there are extra fades who don't control Trollocs and go on other missions. It is an estimate.
***One question that this theory raises is “Why can't the Myrddraal channel?” well the answer is that they can.**
No, they don't. ***
This is just my theory, do you have any proof that they can't?
***“No, we have had Shaidar Haran's POV of when he travels by shadow; he reaches for the Shadow, instead of opening a gateway or tearing a hole in the Pattern”***
When Nynaeve healed people (while she was a wilder) she didn't think “Oh I'm going to use the power now”, she just did what felt right and natural, just like the fades who think reaching for the shadow is the natural thing to do.
***Shaidar Haran, is an exception to Myrddraals. He's most likely been altered by the Dark One personally ***
Yep, he can use the full extent of his powers, like comparing and Aes Sedai to a wilder.
***Where's this? People in the AoL used swords too, and Shadowspawn use the tactic of greater numbers, instead of greater skill***
Where is your proof of thus. To tell the truth I've never really thought about the AoL weapons, but they did use tanks, (can't remember quote) so that would kinda imply that guns were also used, as well they had planes so they must have of had some sort of projectile weapon. Maybe like Star Wars with their Light sabers, a mixture of both worlds.
9
Satin alEllien Moonsong: 2004-10-25
callandor, the idea behind objecting to someones theory is that you should give a REASON and, if at all possible, PROOF for objecting to a certain point.
10
Sampson: 2004-10-25
I cannot agree nor disagree with the theory, but I like that you put some information together and articulated your theory.
Just to add a little though, when the 2 Myrddraal came to pick Nynaeve, Egwene & Elaine one of them asked if they were sure they were asleep because he itched. That sounds allot like how male channelers tell that a female has embraced the OP.
But I do not believe any of the “normal” Myrddraal can channel even if they were taught/trained. If that was possible I would have to assume that the Dark One would have utilized that resource way before now, and really wouldn't have a need for the Black Ajah or the Chosen. He would have weaker channelers but way more reliable and faithful not to mention a hell of allot more.
Shaidar Haran is a whole different beast. He has been modified by the Dark One. So there is a question, if the dark one could modify 1 Myrddraal why couldn't he modify others? Why could he modify SH and not any others?
I like the idea that their ability has something to do with the channeling gene. It makes sense sorta. I mean there has to be a reason that they do not turn out to be Trollocs and that they are "slightly out of phase with time and reality". Some of the human stock they used had to have the channeling gene present.
Note: they did mix humans with wolves, we know that wolves are different then other animals i.e. goats, and when they die they go to the wolf dream, might have something to do with the "slightly out of phase with time and reality". Do Myrddraal come from the wolf trollocs mating? Also to turn a person who can channel you get 13 Myrddrall and channel through them. How could that happen unless they had some kind of ability? Just a couple thoughts.
11
ilgross: 2004-10-26
I have to point out that nobody knows they are using the TP, as it is undetectable.
12
fistandantilus: 2004-10-26
I will agree that Fades do have some strange powers, and probably some we have not seen yet. We still have not seen a Fade in unarmed combat, with one notable exception(Thom and the Blue Flashes), so I would imagine they have some rather nasty surprises in store. However, with the amount of time since they were created, they have had plenty of opportunity to hone their skills. I think the Myrddraal are a counter balance to the Warders. Remember, the Wheel is all about balance. We have Trollocs=soldiers, Dreadlords=Aes Sedai, Forsaken=Ta'veren(although that may be a strech), and I think the Myrddraal=Warders. Lan once said that a Myrddraal would probably be able to take out a very weak Aes Sedai, and I think a Warder would be able to also. This would seem to be a proper balance, with no side having too great an advantage.
13
Callandor: 2004-10-26
**you seem to be refuting what he is saying without presenting any evidence of your own, quite hypcritical considering that your most common argument is 'prove it'
practice what you preach, man!!**
Well, I would think the difference between Myrddraal shadow-travelling, and channelers Travelling, is quite apparent. I guess I put too much trust in the intelligence of the average poster.
Btw, common knowledge = needing to quote? I'm a lazy a-hole; I don't waste effort with lack of knowledge unless you desperately need it.
Save me time because I don't care enough about this post. Find any scene where a channeler Travels. Read it. Compare to this:
**TITLE: A Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 40 - Spears
A sudden ache climbed the back of its neck; a faint weakness washed along its limbs. Too long away from Shayol Ghul. That tie had to be severed somehow. With a snarl, ~it turned to find the edge of shadow that it needed~. The day was coming. It would come.**
1. Where is the channeling?
2. Where is the gateway?
3. Where is the hole in the Pattern, as with True Power channeling?
Guess what? IT'S NOT THERE! Because they are not the same.
**However, while I do think Myrddraal are somehow caused by the channelling gene, I do not think they can actually channel in a way that compares to other channellers in the series**
There are two qualities that point to Myrddraal being linked to channeling:
1. They can sense at least female channeling, via an "itch" (if you want quotes, ask nicely like the good little people you are, or go look at TDR when Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene get knocked out after meeting Aviendha).
2. They can form a semi-similar link with female channelers to perform the turning to the Dark for other channelers.
Note: While this is quite similar to channeling, it is more in line with a Dark ability (after all, male and female circles can't turn anyone to the Dark).
**This is just my theory, do you have any proof that they can't?**
1. Why wouldn't they have channeled before?
2. The traveling of Half-men does not match at all, or come close, to other channeling.
3. Quote an example that comes close to showing this.
**When Nynaeve healed people (while she was a wilder) she didn't think “Oh I'm going to use the power now”, she just did what felt right and natural, just like the fades who think reaching for the shadow is the natural thing to do.**
But there is no reaching for anything with Myrddraal. There is no tapping into something extraordinary like what any other channeler feels when they access the OP or the TP (even Wilders experience that).
**Yep, he can use the full extent of his powers, like comparing and Aes Sedai to a wilder.**
Really? So, a "trained" Myrddraal, is twice the size, can cut channelers off from the source, feel the difference between both halves of the One Power, as well as being a "simple" Myrddraal?
Shaidar Haran is something new. He was a Myrddraal. He was most likely transformed by the Dark One himself. Him being bistowed knowledge of channeling (from the Dark One????), makes no sense.
**Where is your proof of thus.**
Once again, the masses uninformed of common knowledge.
**TITLE: The Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 55 - What is Written in Prophecy
The Forsaken laughed, amused, swinging his blade in quick flourishes to either side of him; the black fire roared as if swift passage through the air quickened it. "You were a greater swordsman, once, Lews Therin," he said mockingly. *"Do you remember when we took that tame sport called swords and learned to kill with it, as the old volumes said men once had?* Do you remember even one of those desperate battles, even one of our dire defeats? Of course not. You remember nothing, do you? This time you have not earned enough. This time, Lews Therin, I will kill you." Be'lal's mockery deepened. "Perhaps if you take Callandor, you might extend your life a little longer. A littler longer."**
Plus, why do you think the entire Second Oath is in place, if there was no swords? More over, where did Rand's, Lan's, and Laman's One Power wrought swords came from, if not made in the AoL??
**Shaidar Haran is a whole different beast. He has been modified by the Dark One. So there is a question, if the dark one could modify 1 Myrddraal why couldn't he modify others? Why could he modify SH and not any others?**
1. It takes a lot of effort.
2. He simply couldn't before.
3. RJ decided he could ;).
14
charliec: 2004-10-27
As ever I find myself protesting agaist the wheel and balance ideas... the wheel doesn't show an exact point for point balance between two different sides, where there are clear analogues in the dark for each force in the light.
If that were the case, how come in the age of legends there were a couple of thousand years where the light had it all, and the dark had nothing? shouldn't the wheel have moved to balance that situation sooner?
15
Callandor: 2004-10-27
Found this Post-ACOS signing:
**Do all Darkfriends have the equivalent of the black threads seen in Tel'aran'rhiod attached to Ishy and Asmodean I have a theory that
Fades may use these threads to travel on.
RJ:no. fades: travel where light and darkness meet.**
Nothing about channeling, yet again.
16
Callandor: 2004-10-29
**If that were the case, how come in the age of legends there were a couple of thousand years where the light had it all, and the dark had nothing? shouldn't the wheel have moved to balance that situation sooner?**
As RJ himself said, the AoL was not a perfect utopia. Compared to Randland, it definately was, but disease outbreaks still happened, even though rare, there were still violent crimes, though reduced, and there was still evil (even before the Dark One was free, Semirhage was a sadist).
17
a dragonburned fool: 2004-11-01
Jordan explicitely said that TP was used by the creation of Trollocs and the one who created the Trollocs was Aginor. I.e. Aginor used TP with a level of skill enough for to create so difficult thing like Trollocs. One of the things that can be done with TP was Ishamael's sort of Traveling. Even if Aginor hasn't know this particular weave, he would see Ishamael doing it, and because of his TP knowledge he would guess what this means. So Aginor would guess what the Myrddraals do. But Aginor tried very intensively to learn how the Myrddraals travel with zero success. If he had only a doubt that it could be TP, he would know that it depends only on DO, and he would not even try. THerefore the Myrddraal's travel looks fundamentally different from TP action for a man who can work with TP. How could it be TP traveling then?
18
golem22: 2004-11-04
"We know that about 3% of the total population can channel"
Actualy you are wrong in the age of legends that was the ammount of the population who had the potential to be a channeler (though a good number chose not to learn for varios reasons) In this age the percentage is only about 1% and of those one percent very very few actualy are given the opportunity to learn much less want to.
Robert jordan explained this in one of his interviews...
19
Heron: 2004-11-09
I have very little to add: The dark one has limits, that's why he didn't "upgrade" other Myrdraal like SH. (pretend it's a big game of chess) I don't agree with this theory completely; I support the theory that Myrdraal (and perhaps the animal throwbacks) are a result of whatever causes Perrin and Elyas (and perhaps others) to be able to communicate with wolves because of the linking and the wolves' intense hatred of the "twisted ones" and "neverborn". Perhaps they also need the channeling gene to avoid being an animal throwback (and if they have JUST the gene, they're a throwback as well), or perhaps if they have the gene it produces a throwback. I don't know, and I'm too lazy to search out the answers, or I'd put up a theory.
20
Saldean Farm Boy: 2004-11-18
I do like your theroy and can see how you convinced yourself of this. I think the influence of the TP and the touch of the DO caused the consistent ablities we see in Myrddrall. I think that their ablities were infulenced by the TP but are not of the TP.
21
Aiel Finn: 2005-04-18
The 3% may be from the age of legends, but the stock for the trollocs and Myrddraal are from the AoL. They wouldn't have been "culled" as the rest of Randland's population has been.
