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lviarin's Mark - Chosen?

by Rhodric: 2004-10-04 | Not yet rated

Previous Categories: The Dark One's Touch

The crux of this theory is that Alviarin has been marked by the DO to be a Forsaken.

first the "mark" scene:

TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight

CHAPTER: 21 - A Mark

"She's been very useful," Mesaana said, not sounding afraid at all, in a voice that tugged the edge of recognition, "and now I will have to kill her."

"She can be useful," the Myrddraal rasped. "I would not want the Black Ajah destroyed."

"Who are you to challenge one of the Chosen?" Mesaana demanded contemptuously, then ruined the effect by licking her lips.

"Do you think Hand of the Shadow is just a name?" The Myrddraal's voice no longer grated. Hollow, it seemed to boom down caverns from some unimaginable distance. The creature grew as it spoke, swelling in size till its head brushed the ceiling, over two spans up. "You were summoned, and you did not come. My hand reaches far, Mesaana."

Shaking visibly, the Chosen opened her mouth, perhaps to plead, but suddenly black fire flashed around her, and she screamed as her clothing fell away in dust. Bands of black flame bound her arms to her sides, wrapped tight around her legs, and a seething ball of black appeared in her mouth, forcing her jaws wide. She writhed there, standing naked and helpless, and the look in her rolling eyes made Alviarin want to soil herself.

"Do you want to know why one of the Chosen must be punished?" The voice was a bone-grating rasp once more, the Myrddraal seemingly only a too-tall Lurk, but Alviarin was not fooled. "Do you want to watch?" it asked.

She should go facedown on the floor, grovel for her life, but she could not move. She could not look away from that eyeless stare. "No, Great Lord," she managed with a mouth as dry as dust. She knew. It could not be, but she knew. Tears were rolling down her cheeks, she realized.

The Myrddraal smiled again. "Many have fallen from great heights for wanting to know too much."

It flowed toward her - no; not it - the Great Lord, clothed in the skin of a Myrddraal, flowed toward her. He walked on legs, yet there was no other description for the way he moved. The pale, black-clad shape bent toward her, and she would have shrieked when he touched a finger to her forehead. She would have shrieked if she could have summoned any sound at all. Her lungs were airless sacks. The touch burned like red-hot iron. Vaguely, she wondered why she did not smell her own flesh burning. The Great Lord straightened, and the searing pain dwindled, vanished. Her terror did not lessen in the slightest, though.

"You are marked as mine," the Great Lord rasped. "Mesaana will not harm you, now. Unless I give her permission. You will find who threatens my creatures here and deliver them to me." He turned away from her, and the dark armor fell from his body. She was startled when it hit the carpeted floor tiles with a crash of steel rather than simply vanishing. He was clothed in black, and she could not have said whether it was silk or leather or something else. The darkness of it seemed to drink the light from the room. Mesaana began to thrash in her bonds, keening shrilly past the gag in her mouth. "Go now," he said, "if you wish to live another hour." The sound coming from Mesaana rose to a despairing scream."

**********

okay, so that's alvy being marked. now here is something RJ said about the "mark" that the Chosen recieve:

Question:

How were the Gholams made? Were they created or bred like the Trollocs? How exactly are they controlled if they are immune to the One Power?

Robert Jordan Answers:

The gholam—singular and plural are the same—were created, not bred. Supposedly their creation involved making them so that they would be obedient to the Chosen, whoever they might be at any given time. This was an attempt at copying something that had turned up in Myrddraal, which seem incapable of disobeying one of the Chosen, possibly because of the use of the True Power in creation of the Trollocs, the parent stock of the Myrddraal. Even Aginor, who created the Trollocs, and thus indirectly the Myrddraal, was uncertain about the actual cause. (Becoming one of the Forsaken involves receiving a mark from the Dark One in return for your oaths; this mark is invisible and cannot be sensed by another human being, even another of the Forsaken, but it can be by certain non-human creatures, including Myrddraal and draghkar among others. This may play a part in the Myrddraal's obedience but doesn't explain it completely.) This element in gholam has some flaws, however, as we have seen in a small measure. In any case, if I were you, I wouldn't try giving orders to a gholam unless I were one of the Forsaken.

**********

of interest here is the forsaken mark. the facts:

1. it is given by the DO in return for your oaths

2.this mark is INVISIBLE and cannot be sensed by other humans, even the Forsaken

3. it can be sensed by myrddraal.

so does the mark given to alviarin fit these 3 things?

the first one is the trickiest to , and whether or not you believe it depends on what you think Shaidar Haran is.

IMO, SH is the Hand of the Shadow, in name as well as nature. it is the way the the DO directly affects events - by moving through SH. Often RJ writes of SH's voice changing to something darker and ominous - i think this is when the DO uses SH as an 'avatar'.

well, when alvy meets SH, we hear him speaking with this DO style voice (not like the rasping myrddraal) just before SH marks miss alvy.

IMO alvy recieved this mark from the DO working through SH.

the next question is if the mark was given in return for alvy's oaths. what follows is my handwavey explanation for why this is so.

i imagine the original forsaken had to pronounce to the GL directly that they would dedicate their lives to Him, since there was no network to recruit darkfriends. then after giving these oaths, they would recieve the mark.

in this day and age however, channelling DFs have already given their oaths to the BA, which is run by alvy and in turn run by forsaken. through these chains of command, IMHO the DO sees these oaths to him as valid... so he can mark whichever BA he pleases, if he so trusts their oaths.

i think the scene above shows SH aka the DO judging Alviarin's loyalty to him and deciding that she is worthy and competent enough to be one of the Chosen (especially considering she's stuffed up less than the existing Chosen).

2nd criteria: that the mark is invisible and undetectable. see what alvy thinks and feels when she leaves her room after being marked:

**********

"Alviarin did not know how she got out of her rooms - she could not understand how she was upright when her legs felt like water - but she found herself running through the corridors, skirts pulled to her knees and running as hard as she could. Suddenly the head of a wide staircase loomed in front of her, and she barely managed to stop from running right out into the air. Sagging against the wall, shaking, she stared down the curving flight of white marble steps. In her mind, she could see her body breaking as it crashed down the stairway.

Breathing raggedly, in hoarse, raw-throated pants, she put a trembling hand to her forehead. Her thoughts tumbled one over another, as she would have down the stairs. The Great Lord had marked her as his. Her fingers slid across smooth unblemished skin. She had always prized knowledge - power grew from knowledge - but she did not want to know what was happening in the rooms she had left. She wished she did not know that anything was happening. The Great Lord had marked her, but Mesaana would find a way to kill her, for knowing that. The Great Lord had marked her and given her a command. She could live, if she found who was hunting the Black Ajah. Straightening her back with an effort, she hurriedly scrubbed at the tears on her cheeks with the heels of her palms. She could not pull her eyes away from the stairs falling away in front of her. Elaida surely suspected her, but if there was no more to it than that, she could always manufacture a hunt. It just had to include Elaida herself as a threat to be extinguished. Delivered to the Great Lord. Her fingers fluttered to her forehead again. She had the Black Ajah at her command. Smooth, unblemished skin. Talene had been there, in Elaida's rooms. Why had she looked at Yukiri and Doesine that way? Talene was Black, though she did not know that Alviarin was, of course. Would any mark show in a mirror? Was there something that others could see? If she had to manufacture a scheme for Elaida's supposed hunters, Talene might be a place to start. She tried to trace the route any message would have taken from heart to heart before it reached Talene, but she could not stop staring down the stairs, seeing her body bounce and break its way to the bottom. The Great Lord had marked her.

**********

aha! so the mark left smooth unblemished skin. seems undetectable (unless alvy had some real bad rash on her face and the mark is the only bit that is smooth an unblemished, though this seems unlikely for two reasons - one, RJ has never commented on any existing skin conditions that Alviarin may have, and two, because it's silly).

so the mark is undetectable to the naked eye. This suggests to me that it is a mark of the DO, whether it marks her as Chosen is another matter...

I don't think we can say for certain about the Mark being anything, until we see Alvy interact with shadowspawn. Usually lurks don't think very much of AS, but I predict that next time Alviarin comes across them, it will be commanding them...

I clearly haven't proved conclusively beyond-a-shadow-of-a-doubt etc. that alvy has been marked as Chosen, but IMO it's a good idea for the DO to start replacing the losers (sammael, asmo etc) now before all forsaken are dead. Alvy is a good choice, IMHO – she aint no bumbling fool like Galina or the 13 runaways.

Yay Alviarin, the first new Chosen!
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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2004-12-02

Okay, you made a good attempt at providing us with a comprehensive case that Alviarin could have been marked as a Chosen. However, I have a problem with this part, "You are marked as mine," the Great Lord rasped. "Mesaana will not harm you, now." If Forsaken can't sense the marking, why does SH say Mesanna won't bother her now? In my opinion, the marking is more complicated and has to be done at Shayol Ghul. Also, it would appear that a marking from Shaidar Haran, is a marking of property, which can be sensed by any darkfriend, Forsaken, etc. But, as you have mentioned, SH's marking sounds similar to the marking Jordan describes, but as you also suggest, I don't think there is enough information for either side to prove definitively that SH doesn't have the power to mark as though he were the DO himself.

2

mako0424: 2004-12-02

I think your theory is well detailed and comprehensive enough to win me over.

I agree that the Forsaken marking process doesn't neccessarily have to be to complex, or done at Shayol Ghul, because one, the seals are weakening, and the Dark One's reach has grown beyond the norm. Clearly i think Shadar Haran is a direct avatar of the Dark One, not just a super myrddraal, he is going to be the main bad guy when Tarmon Gaidon rolls around. This is going to be the super enemy Rand faces, and i think he does have the full capacity to mark people as the Forsaken.

My biggest problem with this theory is why would the Dark One be making more Forsaken, when the point was for themselves to trim the fat (ie kill each other). but i agree he would want more bad guys, and more Dreadlords for the final battle.

I think this also provides enough proof to conclude that Taim is or will be a new Forsaken himself. Alviarhin's power compartively has to be weaker then all the other forsaken, while Taim we know is very close in power to Rand, so therfore must be stronger or at least equal to other forsaken, and he has proved pretty competent too, he would be a logical choice for a new Forsaken too.

3

Aiel Finn: 2004-12-02

I think that Alviarin may possibly be a new Forsaken. However, I won't be sure until I see her command shadowspawn, or channel the TP.

I think the reason that SH said "Mesaana will not harm you, now. Unless I give her permission." is that the DO will not allow his Chosen to attack each other directally. Mesaana may be able to hurt Alviarin, but the DO would probably kill her for it.

4

ilgross: 2004-12-02

This theory also raises the question:

What makes a Forsaken what they are?

It is more then simply being a Dark Channeler, its the fact that they were in the bore, they were from the Age of Legends and are very powerful.

Alviarin doesn't have any of these charcteristics. So the only thing she gains from being promted is the abiltity to order Gholems and other Dark creautres around, which all in all isn't such a big deal.

What makes the Forsaken the enemies they are is their knowledge, and big strength in power, which Alviarin will probably never obtain.

5

a dragonburned fool: 2004-12-03

It's quite possible that her mark is a Forsaken mark. As You said, we have to wait until Alvierin encounters Shadowspawn for to prove or disprove it.

About the dificulty that: "If Forsaken can't sense the marking, why does SH say Mesanna won't bother her now?" - having in mind that DO can immediately see when his Chosen are killed (or maybe harmed) and when they are, so if Alviarin is harmed, DO will find out immediately and maybe he will find out also that Mesaana was around. And Mesaana will know all that. SO if Mesaana has order to not harm Alviarin it would be silly of Mesaana to break that order because DO will find it out immediately and this will be very bad for Mesaana and Mesaana knows it.

6

nick: 2004-12-03

I like this theory but I think becoming Chosen would be more complicated than this and would probably have to take place at Shayol Ghul. At the end of The Great Hunt Lanfear marks Rand for some reason which I don't think is ever explained. I thought that it may have been so she could find his dreams more easily and I wonder if the mark Alviarin gets is for a similar reason.

7

Manetheren: 2004-12-03

You say that nowadays the Dark One doesn't require people to go to SG to be made Chosen, because he already has people all around the world with oaths taken to serve him. The Dark One ain't the Creator, but he's certainly a hell of a lot higher then anything that runs third after those two. While it's been suggested that he doesn't know EVERYTHING, I've never read anything to say that anyone's ever done anything to directly countermand the DO's wishes without him knowing. The dude can tell if anyone anywhere in the world is loyal or disloyal. They don't need to be at SG for him to know that.
In addition, I've always thought that being made Forsaken had more to it then swearing an oath and being marked. The Forsaken recieve special powers, remember, ranging from the black cords to an immunity to the taint to the ability to use the True Power. I don't think it's a coincidence that SG is described as the one place where the sense/power of the Dark One is greatest. Rather, I think that to recieve these powers they have to be at Shayol Ghul, in much the same way you actually have to throw a mindtrap into the Pit to activate it.

In addition, you say Shaidar Haran is the DO's avatar, to mark new Forsaken, but you have to remember that as bad as things seem right now in the series, whatever freedom the DO has gained over the world has come from touching the world through a weakened seal, which is NOT broken yet, that stands on top of the original hole in the prison. Changing the weather might seem bad to modern day Randlanders, but in the AOL they just made a Bowl of Winds to counteract stuff like that. It really makes you wonder what kind of evil and awesome things the DO was able to do using a fully opened Bore in his prison. Anyway, my point here is that if the DO needed the Forsaken to come directly to the Pit of Doom to become his Chosen when the Bore was freshly made and unsealed, why would he be able to do it now, through an extension of him? I think it's more likely she's been marked a Dreadlord, a definite improvement over Black Ajah, who are basically Darkfriends who can channel, but not yet Forsaken.

And I think a question answered a few weeks ago states that Dreadlords can indeed command Shadowspawn, so we can probably still look forward to someone new ordering Fades around. I'm not certain if the question telling the differences between Dreadlords and Forsaken said whether only Forsaken can command SS, anyone want to clear that up?

PS-If this is simply the Dreadlord mark applied, it would imply that Ishamael, when making his Dreadlords for the Trolloc Wars, could also make this mark. This, put alongside them working together (ala Haran transporting Moghedien to Moridin's lair) and Haran's inability/unwillingness to command Moridin like the other Forsaken, raises some interesting questions as to what exactly their relationship is. While Moridin being Haran and vice versa reeks of cheese to me, and is too close to the Slayer relationship to boot, if that detail should be revealed it wouldn't make me go "That makes no sense at all." Anyone want to look up some quotes to see if we've had Moridin and Haran in the same room at the same time, ever?

8

Callandor: 2004-12-04

**IMO alvy recieved this mark from the DO working through SH.**

Then she fails right there; the Mark is from the Dark One -- not from someone else through him. Otherwise, Ishamael could make anyone a Forsaken, and simply say "You are one of us." in the Dark One's name.

**i imagine the original forsaken had to pronounce to the GL directly that they would dedicate their lives to Him, since there was no network to recruit darkfriends. then after giving these oaths, they would recieve the mark.**

What? No network? Sorry, who did Sammael go to before he defected to the Dark One? Graendal. Was this just a chance "Oh, hey, I'm converting to the Dark; you know the way?", or was it a deliberate matching?

Frankly, a belief in a non-existing Darkfriend network in the AoL is laughable. Moghedien ran a spy network in the AoL; did she have reporters from the Light give her willing information, or were they most likely -- Darkfriends?

I'd pick the latter.

**in this day and age however, channelling DFs have already given their oaths to the BA, which is run by alvy and in turn run by forsaken. through these chains of command, IMHO the DO sees these oaths to him as valid... so he can mark whichever BA he pleases, if he so trusts their oaths.**

Excepting times of when Ishamael is freed, the Black Ajah is run by itself.

Btw, a quote from the same source:

Question # 15:

**Also, while the Forsaken themselves have realized that these primitives have discovered how to do things with the Power that they themselves cannot, or perhaps can once they learn how but never dreamed of doing until they found that the weaves existed here-and-now, they still think of people in the here-and-now as primitives, and their attitudes filter through to the Dark One, who believes that his people from the age of Legends are in all practical ways better -- for which read better trained, more capable, and thus better able to serve him efficiently and effectively -- than the people of the present time.**

How would the Dark One view the Oaths that primitives give, in anyway like what the Forsaken gave to him?

Plus, Alviarin has never gone to Shayol Ghul. There is one overlaying similarity between the Forsaken: all of them have been to Shayol Ghul before.

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 6 - Threads Woven of Shadow

Sammael sometimes wondered about her. He had never met her until he chose to abandon a losing cause and follow the Great Lord, but everyone knew of her, famous and honored, a dedicated ascetic, treating those with disturbed minds Healing could not touch. *At that first meeting, when she accepted his initial pledges to the Great Lord, every trace of the abstemious benefactor was gone, as if she had deliberately become the opposite of everything she had been before.* On the surface her total fixation was her own pleasure, nearly obscuring a desire to pull down everyone who had a particle of power. And that in turn almost hid her own thirst for power, very seldom exercised openly. Graendal had always been very good at hiding things in plain sight. He thought he knew her better than any of the other Chosen did— *she had accompanied him to Shayol Ghul to make his obeisance*—but even he did not know all the layers of her. She had as many shades as a jegal had scales, slipping from one to another as quickly as lightning. She had been the mistress then, he the acolyte, for all his accomplishments as a general. That situation had changed.**

Sammael at least had to go to Shayol Ghul to be Forsaken.

Also Semirhage:

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 6 - Threads Woven of Shadow

How she did hate any who called themselves Aes Sedai. She had been one herself, a true Aes Sedai, not an ignorant fool like the simpleton hanging before her. She had been known, famed, whisked to every corner of the world for her ability to mend any injury, to bring people back from the brink when everyone else said there was nothing more to be done. And a delegation from the Hall of the Servants had offered her a choice that was no choice: to be bound never to know her pleasures again, and with that binding be able to see the end of life approach; or else to be severed, and cast out as Aes Sedai. They had expected her to accept binding; that was the rational, proper thing to do, and they were rational, proper men and women. They never expected her to flee. *She had been one of the first to go to Shayol Ghul.***

So Semirhage went to Shayol Ghul to be Forsaken.

Defining Forsaken:

**TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time

CHAPTER: The Seven Seals

Some Aes Sedai were extremely susceptible to these promises of domination and glory. It did not matter that the world they would rule would be a world of shadow. All that mattered was that they would rule, and with immortality their rule could last forever. These Aes Sedai forsook the light and their oaths of service to follow the wishes of the Great Lord of the Dark. They never called him by name, believing use of his true name to be blasphemy, instead using “Great Lord of the Dark”. *All of these Dreadlords, as they were known, traveled to the Pit of Doom in Shayol Ghul to dedicate their souls to the Dark Lord. The best of them were given power and ability beyond others, making them almost demigods. Among themselves they were known as “Those Chosen to Rule the World Forever,” or simply “the Chosen.” To all others, they were known as the Forsaken.***

Seems that Forsaken have to go to Shayol Ghul.

And again, why would the Dark One think that any 3rd Ager would be near the equvilant to the Forsaken?

**I agree that the Forsaken marking process doesn't neccessarily have to be to complex, or done at Shayol Ghul, because one, the seals are weakening, and the Dark One's reach has grown beyond the norm.**

1. 2 seals are still in place.

2. The Dark One had more control/power in the AoL than now a days.

3. The oaths were ~still~ given at Shayol Ghul in the AoL.

**Clearly i think Shadar Haran is a direct avatar of the Dark One, not just a super myrddraal, he is going to be the main bad guy when Tarmon Gaidon rolls around.**

Bah, it's been set up to be Ishamael/Moridin; nothing has changed that.

**I think the reason that SH said "Mesaana will not harm you, now. Unless I give her permission." is that the DO will not allow his Chosen to attack each other directally.**

What??? The Forsaken have done almost exclusively that; all they are is in fighting. Mesaana attacking Alviarin would be nothing new; the Dark One wants only the strong to serve him. He ~wants~ them to fight for Nae'blis; he ~wants~ them to fight for position.

**At the end of The Great Hunt Lanfear marks Rand for some reason which I don't think is ever explained.**

She didn't mark him; she Healed him.

9

WinespringBrother: 2004-12-04

Ishamael may have seen some potential in Alviarin's future when he picked her from the masses to raise her to the head of the Black Ajah. I'm not convinced that she is a Chosen now, but if she succeeds in her new assignment, the sky's the limit!

10

Gardener: 2004-12-05

Ok so we already know that Alviarins mark was something that forsaken and specific shadow spawn can see/sense. Now i'm thinking that the mark was something that was specific to her.

Maybe the mark was just something that the GL put on her for recognition, we know that he can "see" pretty much everything that goes on, and one example the the "dragons fang" (upside down tear drop thingy) that when drawn draws the GL's attention to that place so maybe the mark draws the GL's attention to that person, and maybe he's able to affect the pattern around that person especially now that most of te seals are broken.

Now this is just a guess, so uma dont laugh at me when you see all the flaws.

11

Callandor: 2004-12-06

**Ok so we already know that Alviarins mark was something that forsaken and specific shadow spawn can see/sense. Now i'm thinking that the mark was something that was specific to her.**

Really? I don't think so. Mesaana might be able to sense it; however, it could easily be that she can't and Shaidar Haran was informing both of them.

Shadowspawn sensing the mark is really up for grabs.

And as usual have to mention it is in no way for sure that Shaidar Haran is the Dark One made flesh.

12

clarkkd: 2004-12-07

I've thought this for a while!!!! :)

13

kinkyassdevil369: 2004-12-07

I dont know if someone already posted this, sorry if it was i didnt really read it, but is it certain that Shaidar Haran or is the DO it just Alvys inference? Is tehre any proof that he IS the dark one ? Also if he is, why has no other Forsakken guessed this ? Or at least thoguht it.. we have had many point of views from them seeing S.H but they never mentioned them thinking hes the D.O so ya..

14

TheJester: 2004-12-08

Might go out on a limb here, we know that the Chosen in the Age of Legends were marked by the Dark One (and that they swore oaths at the bore, basked in his presence).

As she didn't go to the bore to swear her oaths, the conversation she had with Padan Fain when he retrieved the dagger, then I don't believe that she could be so marked as a Chosen. I personally believe that Haran is Ishamael but that is for another theory, but was thinking what if it is like the Trolloc bond that has been used, Haran will know where she is and in-effect she will belong to him and she is certainly driven by fear of him like the Trollocs.

15

TheJester: 2004-12-10

New idea, this....

Haran is a Fade and therefore could bond Trollocs to him, maybe this is what he did to Alviarin. In this way she would be considered his and be controlled by him and driven by fear.

16

Callandor: 2004-12-11

**I dont know if someone already posted this, sorry if it was i didnt really read it, but is it certain that Shaidar Haran or is the DO it just Alvys inference? Is tehre any proof that he IS the dark one ? Also if he is, why has no other Forsakken guessed this ? Or at least thoguht it.. we have had many point of views from them seeing S.H but they never mentioned them thinking hes the D.O so ya..**

Shaidar Haran being the Dark One is entirely Alviarin's perspective. Perspective is not absolute fact (Rand thinking Ishamael is the Dark One comes to mind). While there are a few things that can imply he is a "storage bin" for the Dark One's consciousness (this sounding entirely beyond reason to me, personally), simple common sense and other factors make it doubtful.

**I personally believe that Haran is Ishamael but that is for another theory**

Ishamael is not Shaidar Haran. We have had both of their POVs and they are no where alike.

17

Callandor: 2004-12-13

**Haran is a Fade and therefore could bond Trollocs to him, maybe this is what he did to Alviarin. In this way she would be considered his and be controlled by him and driven by fear.**

Trollocs and Myrddraal are in a link by fear; not marked.