art by Darrell K. Sweet

Theoryland Resources

WoT Interview Search

Search the most comprehensive database of interviews and book signings from Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson and the rest of Team Jordan.

Wheel of Time News

An Hour With Harriet

2012-04-30: I had the great pleasure of speaking with Harriet McDougal Rigney about her life. She's an amazing talent and person and it will take you less than an hour to agree.

The Bell Tolls

2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."

Theoryland Community

Members: 7653

Logged In (0):

Newest Members:johnroserking, petermorris, johnadanbvv, AndrewHB, jofwu, Salemcat1, Dhakatimesnews, amazingz, Sasooner, Hasib123,

Theoryland Tweets

Theories

Home | Index | Archives | Help

he Taint

by Hank McCoy: 2004-10-18 | 3 out of 10 (3 votes)

Previous Categories: The Dark One's Touch

I need some help from quote-masters on this one . . . Something that has perplexed me from the get go about the WOT is the part of the story where the DO lashed out at the One-Hundred Companions (OHC) and tainted Saidin before the Bore was sealed. This has never made any sense to me. If the DO had / has the ability to taint the True Source why did he not do it at the beginning of the War of Power? Why not taint both halves of the Source? If the DO truly wanted to remake the Pattern in his image, it would be much easier to do so if there were no Aes Sedai (either male or female) to do so. Without access to the OP humanity would be doomed. Therefore, it can only be deduced that the DO does not have the ability to intentionally and/or directly taint the OP.

Now before you begin responding please read to the end. After you have done so then you are welcome to argue against my theory.

I believe the taint on the OP is much more the fault of the OHC and LTT. LTT has been described as an arrogant man and he should be. I too would be the same if I had one-tenth of the power LTT did. However, arrogance has never been a heroic quality. In fact, arrogance is traditionally reserved as an antagonistic quality. RJ has, nevertheless, made it clear that LTT is an arrogant ~hero~. He has also made it clear that after the Breaking LTT was not regarded as either a hero or savior. Heroes are not branded by the people as Kinslayer and their symbols are not regarded as evil (dragon fang). So why has RJ stigmatized LTT in such a manner? For one I think it is to show humanity. Nobody likes a hero like Galad. We want our heroes to be flawed, like ourselves. We also like to see a hero fail. Legend is built on failed heroes. Hawking is a great example. He is a hero who almost succeeded. Yes, he accomplished more than any man did in the Third Age, until Rand, but he did not succeed in conquering the world nor did his empire survive his death. Hawking was also a flawed hero. As readers, we have been given insight that Hawking was used by Ishmael as a pawn in a greater game. Hence, Hawking is a failed hero the same as LTT. We also have the example of Jain Farstrider. Jain was a hero of legend who vanished. Vanishing does not brand him a failed hero but there are indications that Farstrider is alive and was used by the DO. Please refer to other discussions about Farstrider is Noel for further information. What I am illustrating is RJ loves failed heroes and has a great many hanging around. This to be covered later.

Now, back to LTT. LTT's failings are very apparent at first glance. However, the degree and magnitude I think has been over looked. It is well know that it was LTT who lead the strike on SG and that the OHC trapped the DO with the seven seals. It is also believed that at the last moment the DO retaliated by tainting Saidin. I believe the taint did come from the DO but it was attached to Saidin by LTT and the OHC, albeit inadvertently. What I think happened was the DO struck at the weavings that were being used to create the seals and that attack remained on Saidin as the weaves were knotted off. RJ has illustrated many instances of OP users fighting the weaves of another Channeler. However, what has never been shown is the TP fighting weaves of the OP. A theorized instance of the TP and OP coming in contact is when Rand and Moridin cross paths with their balefire weaves in Shadar Logoth. If it is correct to infer that the TP and OP did come into contact is SL then the results of a small amount of power from opposing sides contacting is devastating. As a matter of fact, Rand still suffers from whatever happened at SL. Now if much larger quantities came into contact what might the results be? A semblance of a taint, maybe?

Since the TP that was trapped is different from the OP; hence, the floating on the surface description. Oil floating on water is a perfect example. Not that the two solutions repel one another but they do not mix. No mater how much water and oil are blended they will not remain together. If the DO intended to taint the OP wouldn't it make more sense to infuse the OP with his touch; have it become apart of Saidin so it can not be separated. That is why I think that taint was pure happenstance.

So lets wrap this up:

1) The taint was not a direct effect of the DO, but it worked to his advantage.

a) If the DO could taint Saidin intentionally, he would have done so long before the sealing. Since he did not it must be assumed that he did not have the direct ability. Why would the DO not use a weapon that would ensure easy victory?

b) If the DO could taint Saidin intentionally, he would have tainted Saidar as well and left no Aes Sedai to oppose him. Saidar was left untouched. This is for two reasons. One the DO does not have the direct ability to taint the OP (see above). Two the only reason Saidin was tainted was because of something the OHC and LTT did at SG.

2) The sealing of the bore is what trapped the taint with Saidin.

a) As the OHC and LTT wove the seals, the DO attacked. That much is indisputable. However, the intention of that attack was not to taint Saidin. The DO was attempting to sever the OHC connection to the OP or cut the weaves to stop the sealing. The attack came too late and was instead tied off inside the seals and trapped with Saidin.

b) Because of the opposition of the OP to the TP the OHC were instantly affected by the contact of the two powers. The attack caused such a violent reaction that the men went immediately insane.

c) Insanity is caused not by the touch of the DO, but rather the continual fight of the TP v. OP. Observe the physical reaction of Rand when his balefire contacts Moridin's.

3) LLT lead the OHC and the sealing and is therefore directly responsible for the taint, not the DO.

a) As described above the DO could not directly taint the OP.

b) As the DO attacked the OHC the seals were finished. Instead of its desired effect, whatever it might have been, the strike was trapped in the weaves and tied to Saidin. This attachment had two unexpected effects: 1-Saidin was tainted and doomed male channelers to madness 2-the TP inhibited the knotting of the weaves. The TP acted as a finger inside the knot in the seals. Over the centuries, it wiggled and loosened the weave allowing the DO to eventually begin to break the patch.

So, in conclusion, Rand removing the taint was merely him undoing his soul's mistake. The DO did not want it to happen because it was a great advantage to him and the DO knew he could not do it again. Now, to wrap up the failed heroes. I think it is too much coincidence for there to be some many failed heroes in the Third Age. It appears to me that it is the failed heroes are the key to rebuilding the DO prison. I think that is going to be part of the culmination of the LB: failed deeds rectified. LTT is the most important in that it will be his sacrifice that will seal the bore and allow Rand to live. I know there are mistakes in my logic but overall I think I am correct.
You cannot rate theories without first logging in. Please log in.

Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2004-12-17

(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
alright Quotemasters, you heard the man. Have at it!
But i'd like to point out a few things. One: from the glossary of EotW for True Source: "Since the beginning of the Time of Madness, saidin has been tainted by the **Dark One's touch.**"
Two: my take. The Strike on Shayol Ghul by the Hundred Companions was an attempt to seal away the Dark One. The Seals would prevent the Dark One from touching the world. The Seals are weaves of Saidin. So it was Saidin that was attacking the Dark One, so the Dark One lashed out at what was attacking him: Saidin. By placing his touch on Saidin, he set in motion events that would eventually erode the Saidin-made Seals on his Prison, allowing him again to touch the world.
I'd add more, but my books are packed up right now. So I'll leave it to the Quotemasters.

2

Aiel Finn: 2004-12-17

I really like this one. It goes along with a theory I submitted a few day ago which never got accepted. If the seal on the bore is like a shield used to shield a channeler, then the taint could be from exactally what you describe, the DO tried to break out. The HC had to tie the seal off because they would be unable to maintain it for millenia, and they wouldn't be strong enought, so they linked the knots to cuellendar, something that is "indestructible". However, just like all knotted shields, this one can eventually be unknotted over time which is why the DO is escaping again.

3

Satin alEllien Moonsong: 2004-12-17

*c) Insanity is caused not by the touch of the DO, but rather the continual fight of the TP v. OP. Observe the physical reaction of Rand when his balefire contacts Moridin's.*

thats just what happens when 2 bars of raw destrution come into contact, duh

4

logains glory: 2004-12-17

I don't think the Dark One had/has the ability to taint the One Power because he does not have access to it; he only has access to True Power. That is why he didn't taint the Source in the beginning of the War of Power. In the instance of the Hundred Companions and LTT, they were sealing the Dark One with Saidin. The Dark One lashed out and touched Saidin and by doing so left kind of a residue of his evil on Saidin that acted like a cancer and spread with no way to stop it up until Rand. That is my take on it.

5

Callandor: 2004-12-18

**If the DO had / has the ability to taint the True Source why did he not do it at the beginning of the War of Power? Why not taint both halves of the Source? If the DO truly wanted to remake the Pattern in his image, it would be much easier to do so if there were no Aes Sedai (either male or female) to do so. Without access to the OP humanity would be doomed. Therefore, it can only be deduced that the DO does not have the ability to intentionally and/or directly taint the OP.**

**Question: Is there a reason the Dark One could not or would not re-taint saidin?

RJ: The conditions would have to be exactly right. Those conditions were set up while the seals were being placed on the Bore. The chances that exactly those conditions would occur again are fairly small. And that is saying that it was a volitional act rather than a side-effect of trying to stop the seals from being placed. After all, if the Dark One could taint saidin at will, why could he not taint saidar as well, and why would he not have done so?**

The One Power was tainted because circumstances were "just right" for him to do it; he cannot do it any ol' time.

The Seals are the factor in the tainting.

**b) If the DO could taint Saidin intentionally, he would have tainted Saidar as well and left no Aes Sedai to oppose him. Saidar was left untouched. This is for two reasons. One the DO does not have the direct ability to taint the OP (see above). Two the only reason Saidin was tainted was because of something the OHC and LTT did at SG.**

False. It was intentional. It was just a rare event. If saidar was present at the Sealing, saidar would've been tainted as well. For proof of this, see the Budapest interviews found at Dragonmount. RJ says this very, VERY, explicitly.

**a) As the OHC and LTT wove the seals, the DO attacked. That much is indisputable. However, the intention of that attack was not to taint Saidin. The DO was attempting to sever the OHC connection to the OP or cut the weaves to stop the sealing. The attack came too late and was instead tied off inside the seals and trapped with Saidin.**

Much supposition, but there isn't much information anyway. RJ is really implying that the Dark One's counterstroke (the Taint) was a last ditch effort by the Dark One; as if that was his only intention.

**3) LLT lead the OHC and the sealing and is therefore directly responsible for the taint, not the DO.**

That's playing semantics. Would saidin be tainted if the Sealing was not attempted? Absolutely not. Did the Dark One play no part in the Tainting, and Lews Therin did it all on his own? Absolutely not.

Lews Therin played a part in the set up; the tainting was ALL the Dark One's plan.

6

SugarBullet: 2004-12-18

So... the "counterstroke" was percieved to be an active choice of the dark one, but actually was just a logical effect of the LTT's actions? In other words, if a person stuck his hand into mud and it comes out dirty, the mud isn't necessarily intentionally acting upon the hand? So any channeler who's weaves contact the dark one could come end up smeared with evil?

Or am I misreading this?

Also...

"2) The sealing of the bore is what trapped the taint with Saidin."

Does this mean saidin would've been purged anyway when the dark one breaks free?

7

a dragonburned fool: 2004-12-22

In man points Your theory is correct, Hank McCoy, but it only loses from Your accent on the LTT's error and from Your statement that the Taint was not DO's responsibility but it was LTT's. So people react against this unjust suggestions and miss the truth in Your theory. E.g. they counter You with the statement that DO actively made a counterstroke, while You actually admit the DO's counterstroke. This is due to Your unfortunate definition of the comarison between LTT's and DO's responsibility.

It is definitely true that LTT has responsibility about the Taint. I don't undestand why this would mean that DO have no responsibility for it, because even flawed DO did more for the creation of the Taint than LTT, and if the lack of intention frees DO from responsibility why it doesn't free also LTT? But that's not so important. More important is that I have the impression that You are stating that LTT (or somebody else) had to do it better and that LTT made a wrong choice. If You state that LTT's strike on Shayol Ghul was a wrong choice (and that was a better possible choice), You would have reason to blame LTT for the Taint (and not blame DO for it). But here is my basic disagreement with You - I don't agree that LTT made a wrong choice.

You have the full right to point out that RJ liked to put failed heroes in his work, and it is really important also regarding the case of LTT and the Sealing. But I don't agree with Your interpretation, that unlike "real" heroes, the failed heroes would be false hero, who made a wrong choice. Actually the most true heroes in RJ's writtings are allways flawed in some aspects. Part of RJ's message is, that there is no hero without a flaw, and no heroic deed without unwanted consequences (remember Siuan's Law of unwanted consequences). Also in RJ's books the greater is the thing to be achieved, the highter the price to be paid. So the fact that LTT's deed had a very bad unwanted consequence with really terrible price, doesn't in any sense make LTT's deed less heroic and less valuable.

LTT is described as arrogant by his enemies and by himself. Those who don't agree with his ideas will of course describe his faithfull following of his principle as arrogance. And after LTT knows that he killed his Ilyena, he will of course blame himself about everything he could think about. But I cannot find a reliable neutral opinion describing him so. Almost all RJ's characters are arrogant in some degree, and I don't find in LTT more arrogance than in other good characters. If under arrogant you mean also stupid, careless and closing eyes about what is not wanted to be seen, I don't find any reasons for You to conclude so.

LTT's strike is not to be imputed to LTT's arrogance. In sense that nobody else seemed to see any better choice. Nor anybody else have seen the real danger of the Taint. Yes, Latra Posae stubbornly rejected the LTT's plan because of it been extremely dangerous, but Latra Posae meant NOT the danger that actually happened. Latra Posae's objection was that LTT wouldn't be able to seal the Bore precise enough, and exaclty that LTT completed perfectly. Neither Latra Posae nor anybody else had even the slightest hint about the possibility of the consequence that really happened. In the circumstances, and with the knowledge available for his time, LTT's choice was the best possible thing to be done. Actually it ended the war with the Shadow in a desperate for the Light's forces moment and it removed DO from the world for 3000 years. If LTT haven't done that, it would be much worse for the world. LTT did something that ought to be done somehow, and he did it as good as it could be done, and nobody else could do anything better than him, and any other choice would make the situation only worse.

It was LTT's seal that made saidin accessible to DO. Before LTT's seal only the world was accessible to him, not the One Power, and DO could do nothing against it. After LTT placed the Seals into the Bore, the OP from his weave come in contact with DO's own metaphysical place. No a Forsaken could do this before, because only a fool would channel in Shayol Ghul as the Forsaken say (i.e. there is a restriction of some sort). That is the reason for DO to taint only saidin. RJ also said that the reason for saidar not being tainted was that there were no women in LTT's group.

As about the hypothesis that DO already was in process to do something different, LTT's shield canceled him and part of TP was "trapped"... it's a possible option and it's not bad to have it as an alternative explanation, in spite of it not refuting the traditional explanation.